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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 458107 times)

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1275 on: May 01, 2017, 08:17:14 PM »
Many years in the works ,

actually partzman's open source MEI Bifilar work has been doing on for a long time,  it is an ongoing investigation.

more here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61454;topicseen#msg61454
been at his open source bench there for many years.

respectfully
Chet K


Thanks Ramset by information , but unfortunately this forum that you refer is reserved only to some people which is not my case :)   how i can register in that forum  ? Can you clarify me ?  :)


Nelson Rocha
 

Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1276 on: May 01, 2017, 09:39:54 PM »

That forum is only open source [Peter's rules]
all benches are public view  and always have been.

some fellows who are willing to open source their work and do open source experiments have recently been added there,

However the ultimate goal is to get the environment here to be more respectful[from all contributors]

and do experiments in a fashion where respect rules the day. people actually building in a topic and no unsolicited noise

some people say its not possible here?

very hard to do, but it is a goal.

Peter has a fulltime job and does not even have  advertising
on the site... and very little time to watch over things ,

Bots were attacking day and night when membership was open, so it was closed .

everyone prefers this Venue [Stefan's] and always have.

but sometimes it gets way too busy here to follow experimenters .

respectfully
Chet K






Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1277 on: May 01, 2017, 10:00:30 PM »
That forum is only open source [Peter's rules]
all benches are public view  and always have been.

some fellows who are willing to open source their work and do open source experiments have recently been added there,

However the ultimate goal is to get the environment here to be more respectful[from all contributors]

and do experiments in a fashion where respect rules the day. people actually building in a topic and no unsolicited noise

some people say its not possible here?

very hard to do, but it is a goal.

Peter has a fulltime job and does not even have  advertising
on the site... and very little time to watch over things ,

Bots were attacking day and night when membership was open, so it was closed .

everyone prefers this Venue [Stefan's] and always have.

but sometimes it gets way too busy here to follow experimenters .

respectfully
Chet K


Huhhh , i understand ....  about the unsolicited noise  , seems more convenient to some people talk more "freely" about their ideas and analyses, and not be perturbed; where only technical issues are discussed ....  seems fair ;)
ok , Thanks by the your clarification  .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1278 on: May 01, 2017, 11:58:17 PM »
Oops you can't attach an image to an email so I am posting this here.

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1279 on: May 01, 2017, 11:59:56 PM »

Huhhh , i understand ....  about the unsolicited noise  , seems more convenient to some people talk more "freely" about their ideas and analyses, and not be perturbed; where only technical issues are discussed ....  seems fair ;)
ok , Thanks by the your clarification  .

respectfully

Nelson Rocha
Nelson could you throw a bit of light on |G|rums thread regarding the iron core winding and the relay please ?

Offline hfo

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1280 on: May 02, 2017, 08:00:47 AM »
May 1, 2017
Hi all,
I really never expected to be posting in this forum, as I had long ago given up on free energy, etc.  In the distant past I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with N-machines, Bedini stuff, and nothing ever panned out.  Every once in a while I poke around to see if there's anything interesting or new that might possibly have a chance.  Never happens.

A couple of days ago something popped up on Youtube that caught my eye.  Tinman's bifilar coil overunity.  It looked so simple.  I followed what he was doing and couldn't fault his technique or results, but I still couldn't believe it.  (BTW, I've been involved with both analog and digital electronics for about 45 years)

After I saw 3 people had replicated it, one with some especially nice scope work I decided to try it myself.  The result was disappointing.  Then on watching Tinman's video again, and noting the LED lit up when he was in the middle of switching from the input side to the output side, I realized that I'd made a mistake in my setup, and corrected the problem.

Now, it does appear to work!??  I don't know what to say.  I told my wife last night, while talking about this, that I placed the odds of this working at about 1%.  But there it is, output larger than input, same resistor values.

Details of build:
Pancake bifilar coil about 10" OD, about 35 pairs of turns, #22 or #24 flexible hookup wire.
BK  4001 FG
TDS210 Scope
Resistors both 150 ohm
Frequency about 700 kHz (for best result, but not a sharp resonance)

I tried just as Tinman did the first time, switching scope and scope ground between input resistor and output resistor.  Then I isolated the input from the FG with a couple of caps just to make sure I wasn't having a weird ground loop problem.  Still worked.

At "resonance" the voltage across the output resistor is roughly 3 times the voltage across the input resistor.

So, I have to ask myself at this point if I'm just buying into a bit of mass delusion, or if this is real.  What am I missing in interpreting this?  I should know better, but there it is (or seems to be).  If this is a delusion, at least I'll have a few hours of thinking that maybe, just maybe, this stuff is possible!






« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:14:08 AM by Magluvin »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1281 on: May 02, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
Hey Hfo   Welcome

I deleted your pic as it was up for approval and reposting it resized as the big pictures stretch the page a lot.  I use Picpick free pic editor. I set the image resize to 30% to get the right size.

Thanks for showing

Mags
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 12:53:07 PM by Magluvin »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1282 on: May 02, 2017, 09:47:53 AM »
Im out of this testing as I dont have a sig gen that hits the freq you guys are looking at.  Looking at another Hantek that is a scope and arb func gen up to 25mhz

Question..   Tesla referred to it as a given freq and potential.  If you change the input voltage does the freq you are operating to see the effect change? just trying to connect dots.

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1283 on: May 02, 2017, 12:09:50 PM »
Oops you can't attach an image to an email so I am posting this here.

MH
Your confused

Below is the correct interpretation.,

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1284 on: May 02, 2017, 02:08:18 PM »
I hope it is safe for me to post now.

TinMan, MH, you are both right as usual. There is significant capacitive coupling between the two individual half-coils of the bifilar winding, and there is also significant capacitive coupling from the open end of the L1 coil to Ground, through space.

The issue of the proper placement of the CVR is still under discussion and experimentation. I tend to agree with MH on that issue but "traffic continues".

I also want to make it clear that the schematic above is not mine, I just made the ground connections explicit in my edit. The original comes from Partzman, and his coil parameters are listed on that version of the schematic. He has been working on this for a long time, and I and some others are quite new to the program and are still coming "up to speed" as it were.

In my own work with that circuit thus far, I have found that there can be a _huge_ difference in performance depending on whether 50 ohm ordinary resistors, or ~10 ohm non-inductive resistors, are used for the L2 "load".  I'm hoping someone will "donate" a 50 ohm NI resistor to me so that I can eliminate at least one variable in that problem.

 

Mags, I would recommend against getting a combined scope/AWG, as the AWG function in those units is a compromise and generally has low power/voltage output and takes up processing and controls that are better left to the scope function alone. Two separate units will of course cost somewhat more but will be _far_ more versatile in your laboratory use.  Even a "cheepo" DDS AWG stand-alone is likely to be better and easier to use than the AWG built into the scope. But I'm just going by what people are saying on a test equipment forum, I have no personal experience with a combo unit like that.

In answer to your question.... in my experience, yes.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1285 on: May 02, 2017, 02:27:53 PM »
I hope it is safe for me to post now.

TinMan, MH, you are both right as usual. There is significant capacitive coupling between the two individual half-coils of the bifilar winding, and there is also significant capacitive coupling from the open end of the L1 coil to Ground, through space.

The issue of the proper placement of the CVR is still under discussion and experimentation. I tend to agree with MH on that issue but "traffic continues".

I also want to make it clear that the schematic above is not mine, I just made the ground connections explicit in my edit. The original comes from Partzman, and his coil parameters are listed on that version of the schematic. He has been working on this for a long time, and I and some others are quite new to the program and are still coming "up to speed" as it were.

In my own work with that circuit thus far, I have found that there can be a _huge_ difference in performance depending on whether 50 ohm ordinary resistors, or ~10 ohm non-inductive resistors, are used for the L2 "load".  I'm hoping someone will "donate" a 50 ohm NI resistor to me so that I can eliminate at least one variable in that problem.

 

Mags, I would recommend against getting a combined scope/AWG, as the AWG function in those units is a compromise and generally has low power/voltage output and takes up processing and controls that are better left to the scope function alone. Two separate units will of course cost somewhat more but will be _far_ more versatile in your laboratory use.  Even a "cheepo" DDS AWG stand-alone is likely to be better and easier to use than the AWG built into the scope. But I'm just going by what people are saying on a test equipment forum, I have no personal experience with a combo unit like that.

In answer to your question.... in my experience, yes.

 Welcome again  :) nobody will eat you man :) Sure is safe  as always have been ;)
 Give now your best to show and recognize that at the end of 91 pages on this thread , the bifilar pancake coil have some value and "special" characteristics of great value  .

Nelson Rocha

"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
:)


Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1286 on: May 02, 2017, 02:56:29 PM »


TinMan, MH, you are both right as usual. There is significant capacitive coupling between the two individual half-coils of the bifilar winding, 


 

 


Quote
and there is also significant capacitive coupling from the open end of the L1 coil to Ground, through space.

 :o
In all honesty,how much could that capacitive value be?--that small ,it would almost be non existent.
How to check--easy. Disconnect L2,and see how much current you can get to flow through the open L1,using this capacitance that is suppose to exist between the end of L1 and ground.
Bet you come up with 0,as i did.

Quote
I hope it is safe for me to post now.

Well,it has nothing to do with me any more.

Quote
The issue of the proper placement of the CVR is still under discussion and experimentation. I tend to agree with MH on that issue but "traffic continues".


After seeing MHs post,i went straight to the bench,and tested again with the CVR placed at the input.
Everything else left the same,i seen no difference in the input power,nor across the load resistor.
You will of course,need to isolate your scope grounds from the FGs ground ,as i have done.


Brad

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1287 on: May 02, 2017, 03:00:23 PM »


Mags, I would recommend against getting a combined scope/AWG, as the AWG function in those units is a compromise and generally has low power/voltage output and takes up processing and controls that are better left to the scope function alone. Two separate units will of course cost somewhat more but will be _far_ more versatile in your laboratory use.  Even a "cheepo" DDS AWG stand-alone is likely to be better and easier to use than the AWG built into the scope. But I'm just going by what people are saying on a test equipment forum, I have no personal experience with a combo unit like that.

In answer to your question.... in my experience, yes.

Ok. Ill look. Thanks   That one is +-3.5v at 100ma and the one below is the same but only 50ma.   Like is there an amplifier that could be added?


So in your experience yes...  so this may be what Tesla was speaking of in how you guys are going about it. Why other would he specify given freq and potential.  Does the freq go up as the potential is lower or higher? Thanks

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1288 on: May 02, 2017, 03:06:04 PM »
Welcome again  :) nobody will eat you man :) Sure is safe  as always have been ;)
 Give now your best to show and recognize that at the end of 91 pages on this thread , the bifilar pancake coil have some value and "special" characteristics of great value  .

Nelson Rocha

"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
 :)

Hello Nelson, I am glad to see that you are paying attention and reading along.

Another of my favorite Feynman quotes is this one:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

There have been some recent experimental results reported elsewhere that might interest you.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1289 on: May 02, 2017, 03:08:41 PM »
Hello Nelson, I am glad to see that you are paying attention and reading along.

Another of my favorite Feynman quotes is this one:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

There have been some recent experimental results reported elsewhere that might interest you.


Like i already told many times i'm learn all time  even when suck experiments are not new ;) did you make the same?

https://youtu.be/I_eja4gmpcY?t=211

https://youtu.be/Te7NcDY-afQ?t=100


Nelson Rocha