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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 169608 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1035 on: April 19, 2017, 02:59:49 PM »
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.

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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1036 on: April 19, 2017, 03:18:05 PM »
Coulomb's "Law of magnetics" helped couple the "Oersted" as a measure of electrical current H field, with the Gauss B field, a measure of magnetic strength. This is the base equivalency unit of Joseph Henries formula.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1037 on: April 19, 2017, 03:26:51 PM »

I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha

Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1037 on: April 19, 2017, 03:26:51 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1038 on: April 19, 2017, 03:31:37 PM »
Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

@Mags,

Exactly! Same SI units.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1039 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:43 PM »
                                                          1 Gauss ≒ 1 Oersted.

  Factor that into your "Dervish Account"!

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1039 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:43 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1040 on: April 19, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »
How would you choose to denote the energy exchange in a single cycle as compared to many cycles?

If I have 1V @ 1A for a single cycle is that the same as for 1000 cycles?

If that single  cycle takes 1 second,, or if the 1000 cycles take 1 second,, how would you compare them?

I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags

Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1041 on: April 19, 2017, 04:07:11 PM »

Quote
Quote from: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:26:14 AM

TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?

Brad


No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1041 on: April 19, 2017, 04:07:11 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1042 on: April 19, 2017, 04:11:13 PM »
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1043 on: April 19, 2017, 04:20:25 PM »
Or if that full cycle is in 0.001seconds.

Energy and power,, energy you could say is 1 cycle,, power is how many of those cycles you have per second or hour.

They may be sort of the same unit but they are not saying the exact same thing,, potential to do work and how much work is done,, I could vacuum the floors today <= potential,, I vacuumed the floors today <=work done  :)

Ok, cool.

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1043 on: April 19, 2017, 04:20:25 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1044 on: April 19, 2017, 04:25:29 PM »

No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.


Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1045 on: April 19, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

Ah HAH. Here we have it. Ponder upon this:  You forgot, or deliberately did not put, the "-1" as an EXPONENT. The INVERSE Henry is NOT A NEGATIVE HENRY. It is 1/H, not -H.  H-1 is the INVERSE, not a NEGATIVE.

So here we have one root of your insane "Negative Henry". There is no such thing. There is, OF COURSE, magnetic reluctance which is expressed in INVERSE HENRY, that is, 1/H.   

You simply do not understand basic math, algebra, calculus or math notation, as this post of yours ONCE AGAIN proves. I love it when your googling refutes you so soundly and obviously.






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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1045 on: April 19, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1046 on: April 19, 2017, 04:45:46 PM »
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

But a coulomb is not a gauss. 

Do you think a mile per hour is a square mile?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1047 on: April 19, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »
Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1048 on: April 19, 2017, 04:59:28 PM »

Resonance is an interesting subject, we are informed of it being a single frequency phenomena.....blah blah blah.... if we were to really align ourselves with the core message, Tesla's, we would be trying to establish this condition each time the inductance opposes change!  (this is when you are supposed to get up and dance....) This is new territory, uncharted, here who gives a shit about the single sine frequency as it relates to self induction and capacity of the system at the make, and at the break.....it does not apply, hell, capacity and self induction themselves are not what we are taught they are at these key instances!  I have been saying this forever, FUCK SINGLE FREQUENCY RESONANCE CONCEPTS! You people keep listening to the wannabe authorities and are missing the damn point!


Why is it so difficult to stick with what is right in your face....not a question.....fuck a charge....acknowledge and respect the induced and its relation to both self induction and capacity!

You all read the patent....good....you all studied the patent....great...but you are taking it at face value....not good...he gave you a capacitor, that is so fucking obvious....HELLO!!!  But not just any capacitor, this one is off the fucking chain.  Tesla was a master at misdirection, as soon as he gives you a holy shit moment, while he has your undivided attention, he immediately fucks you by instructing you to make a connection between the two plates, he sings you a lullaby, that's right, he sings your lazy asses to sleep as he elaborates on how  fascinating the connection is and how you gain proximity stress.....you take his word for it, wire the capacitor up and operate it like the inductor that it became......you do what he says because hey...it's Tesla...stupid....



As is, the coil is to be operated in an AC system.  The coil as it should have been presented would be operating in a pulsed DC system or an interrupted AC system.   Self induction, capacity and frequency are all related....till they aren't....  We are trained to limit them, they (the aforenamed) don't receive this training.... The LC you are looking for is series, but not for the reasons you are suggesting.  You do not want to neutralize the self induction ( :'(  but Tesla said....LOL.....) you want to neutralize the "negative" effects associated with self induction...lemme grab a straw or two here.......current limiting....maybe....that ties into time constants...maybe....

In the first part and that last part, are you hinting that if we pulse the coil we would see other or another freq that will show up that is not the res freq we have been looking at so far?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1049 on: April 19, 2017, 05:01:13 PM »
No, the frequency scans do not show that the unloaded regular coil produces the highest output, or at least the greatest induced voltage,  at the TBF "primary" coil's resonant frequency. Look again at the scan. In these slow scans, frequency is the x-axis, increasing from left to right, and the height of the trace is the "output" voltage. The CVR in series with the TBF primary is the Yellow trace and where it "pinches" to flatline is the frequency of its resonance, confirmed three different ways. But this frequency, as you can see, does not coincide with the maximum voltage induced in the "secondary" pickup coil. The maximum voltage induced in the pickup coil occurs at its own resonant frequency.

Yes, tuning the coils with added capacitance or by clever winding so that both have the same resonant frequency may have interesting effects. Then you have what is called "dual resonance" and this is frequently (haha) exploited by builders of solid-state Tesla coils (look up DRSSTC for some nice ones.)

i was talking about the 'Hey MH here is some magic' scope shot of using the regular coil as a pickup and flat line yel trace(at 200mv scale)

 

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