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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 337790 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #780 on: April 15, 2017, 12:17:38 PM »
So a few pages back,you said negative current flows in the opposite direction to positive current,and now it flows in the same direction  ???

Brad

@Tinman,

Please watch this video by Lidmotor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0c8TnAX_oE

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #781 on: April 15, 2017, 12:20:12 PM »
@Tinman,

I made the comparison to a man boarding a bus and walking toward the rear of the bus while the bus accelerates forward. Think about this! The man is going backwards while traveling forward at the same time.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #782 on: April 15, 2017, 12:38:31 PM »
@Tinman,

Please watch this video by Lidmotor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0c8TnAX_oE

Unfortunately Lidmotor got it wrong,as the energy continues to flow in the same direction--surly you can see that by the way the LEDs are orientated.
If the energy(current flow) went backward's,then the LEDs would not light.


Brad

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #782 on: April 15, 2017, 12:38:31 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #783 on: April 15, 2017, 12:43:14 PM »
@Tinman,

I made the comparison to a man boarding a bus and walking toward the rear of the bus while the bus accelerates forward. Think about this! The man is going backwards while traveling forward at the same time.

The man is only walking to the back of the bus,and so if your frame of reference is the bus,then the man is walking forward to the rear of the bus,and the bus is not moving.
If your frame of reference is the man,then the man is walking forward.
If your frame of reference is a stationary point on the ground,and the bus is moving forward faster than the man is walking to the back of the bus,then the man and the bus are moving forward.

Your point was?


Brad

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #784 on: April 15, 2017, 12:48:16 PM »
The man is only walking to the back of the bus,and so if your frame of reference is the bus,then the man is walking forward to the rear of the bus,and the bus is not moving.
If your frame of reference is the man,then the man is walking forward.
If your frame of reference is a stationary point on the ground,and the bus is moving forward faster than the man is walking to the back of the bus,then the man and the bus are moving forward.

Your point was?


Brad

@Tinman,

Exactly, It's all relative. Give me a few minutes, I'm searching another video which may  help clear this paradox up. The force the man exerts walking to and fro on the bus while the bus is moving in one direction is equal both ways.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #784 on: April 15, 2017, 12:48:16 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #785 on: April 15, 2017, 12:58:43 PM »
@Tinman,

Here's a diagram of positive and negative current traveling in the same direction. The "Negative Current" is represented by the green colored upside down curve below the zero line:

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #786 on: April 15, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
As MH said,your question makes no sense.

The Tesla is a measure of magnetic field strength-not magnetic flux density.

It's no wonder no one wants to answer your questions--they make no sense.


Brad

@Tinman,

"A flux density of 1 Wb/m2 is 1 tesla".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #786 on: April 15, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #787 on: April 15, 2017, 01:38:44 PM »
Doubling down on a losing hand AGAIN?

The "problem" here is that you don't understand your chosen topic, and your "explanations" are bogus, simply wrong. When the magnetic field collapses in a coil, the current continues in the SAME DIRECTION out of the coil, driven by the magnetic field's collapse. We have been over and over this, you have been presented with many references and demonstrations, but you persist in your easily falsifiable claims.

Why is there a "flyback diode" across a relay coil? Why do the LEDs behave as they do in my demonstrations? Why do Mile High, Cifta, TinMan, and every other knowledgeable poster here agree on this issue, but you don't?  It is because you don't know what you are talking about.

"Negative current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing one way, "Positive current" is your misnomer for CURRENT flowing the other way. CURRENT in wires is the flow of CHARGE, that is, the NEGATIVE UNIT CHARGE carried by electrons. The AMPERE is the unit of CURRENT, and it is measured in COULOMBS of CHARGE per SECOND.

@Tinselkoala,

You're right, when the magnetic field collapses, the current continues to travel in the same direction except it's the bottom half of a sine wave with a negative value. You, Milehigh, Citfa and Tinman and a host of others continue to confuse people about the nature of A.C. current, like the current that's generated by the Ruhmkorff coil secondary when the current's interrupted in the primary. You are a shameless fraud.

Lawrence Tseung stated that "Negative Current" is the pathway to Overunity. That's why you continue to help keep people confused about it. You don't want it! Everyone knows you Judas Priests are nothing but paid Lackeys for the "Fossil Fuel Lobby". Go to hell and burn there for all eternity you Satanic fraud, and take your pack Jackels with you!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #788 on: April 15, 2017, 01:44:30 PM »
First I have to say that you simply interpreting that the coil is 10ohms gives your offering whatever outcome you are trying to convince others of.

Why cant the coil be 1ohm? or even .5ohm? Clearly he is not using wire that would have a 10ohm outcome. Looks to be 18 to 20ga, where 10ohms on that would mean he is using some resistive wire of sorts. Im only pointing that out as you used his 34uh coil and 49pf in your example. Saying or say, assuming his coil is 10ohm just by looking at it is a pretty big misstep in my opinion and using that 10ohm example changes what the actual outcome that you show and id say its totally misleading. Take another look at those coils. Did he say they were 10ohm? How many feet of wire do you think are on those coils? lets say that we can agree that the wire looks to be even 20ga. Do you still 'feel' that the resistance would be anything close to 10ohms? When you buy a cheap stereo system for the home and it comes with 2 10ft roles of say 20ga wire and the speaker is, now a days, 4ohm, what would 10ohms of resistance in the wire do to the outcome of the speaker output?

I just measured a 100ft roll of 18ga wire. 100ft!  1.4ohm ???    So would you say that his coils look like there is 700ft of wire there? ;)

Now, if the coil did have 700ft of wire in order for the resistance to be 10ohm, then that completely changes the outcome of the inductance AND capacitance of which you are using in your example, big time. ;) So you may need to rewrite you thesis on that one.
 

 You say that he is feeding the coil 10w to keep it going at resonance. In my experience, at resonance the input is largely minimized. Where did you get that number??

Mags

Sure, I made a mistake, but I certainly didn't make it on purpose.  I know Conrad documents himself very well, but in this case I failed to read his text description and I just didn't have the stomach to watch the clips again to see if he mentioned the resistance.  I had just watched TK's clip where his resistance reading was about 10 ohms so I used that.  That's why I say, "if we assume a 10-ohm coil."

So Gyula did the calculation based on the true resistance of 0.4 ohms.

We go from this:  114 watts dissipation for 392 microjoules of energy storage

To this:  4.59 watts dissipation for 392 microjpules of energy storage

In the wrong case we have 10^2 dissipation for 10^-4 of energy storage, that's six orders of magnitude difference.

In the correct case we have 10^0 dissipation for 10^-4 of energy storage, that's four orders of magnitude difference.

The conclusion?  The point I made still stands, you pump a lot of power into a self-resonating series bifilar pancake coil to store a minuscule amount of energy.

What you also should appreciate is that you and others have been talking about bifilar coils for something like seven years, and I am willing to bet that you have never seen anyone do this very simple approximate power and energy analysis for a bifilar coil.  Why is that if you are supposed to be so fascinated with this patent?

Quote
You say that he is feeding the coil 10w to keep it going at resonance. In my experience, at resonance the input is largely minimized. Where did you get that number??

Just go read the posting again to see where I get the number.

Finally, I will highlight (and correct) what I said again below because I am looking for an answer from you and from all people that talk about this patent and glorify the Tesla series bifilar coil:

So the questions must be asked:  SO WHAT, and WHY?

Why would I want to store a measly 392 mircojoules of energy in a resonant cavity blazing away at 3.9 megahertz when I have to continuously pump 4.59 watts into the series bifilar pancake coil to sustain the resonance?

What precisely is that going to do for me?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #788 on: April 15, 2017, 01:44:30 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #789 on: April 15, 2017, 02:14:19 PM »
I was on chat with someone that while we were talking, he inspired me to think beyond what is known commonly with the bifilar coils. He would not give me any answers, but made me think as we went along. So i came up with, is there a difference between the induction of 2 coils of a transformer if when the windings are separate, like side by side, or 1st layer and second layer, as compared to a bifilar winding used as a pri and sec for each conductor in the winding, and he said, "now your thinking"

So that is my next experiment. Never though to try that. Hopefully others will give it a go.  This was some weeks ago. I have recently thought, well what if we want a step up or step down? What happens with the extra turns of the step up secondary if it doesnt have any more primary to roll with?  Anyway, Ill go for the 1 to 1 and do some things to see if there is anything to it.

When you are talking about a conventional transformer with a core, then the differences are essentially going to be zero.  There is no logical or rational reason for there there to be any real differences.  It doesn't matter if the windings are separate or side by side or on opposite sides of the core.  The primary winding will pump almost 100% of its flux into the high-permeability core irregardless of if the secondary winding is separate from it or inter-meshed with it.  Likewise the only thing that the secondary winding cares about is the fact that it sees changing flux through the core that it is wrapped around.

It sometimes blows my mind how people can't seem to work these things out in their heads by applying their knowledge.  It seems so many people chase after imaginary things like some sort of fairy tale superstition.  It's the same deal with the series bifilar coil, pancake or otherwise.  They are almost indignant that you pose questions about it's application and practicality.  Yet, so far, it seems nobody can actually answer these questions.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #790 on: April 15, 2017, 02:17:07 PM »
Wouldnt it be better if we look at the differences between the single wound pancake coil,and the bifiler pancake coil,and see if we can work out what those differences mean-or how they would change the operating characteristics of the coil.

Lets say that each coil(1x single wound,and one bifilar wound)has 100 turns in total,and we pulse each coil with a 100 volt potential across each coil--what ever frequency.

Now,as far as i know,the single wound coil would have 1 volt potential difference between each winding--although i believe that the potential difference between the windings at the center would be less than 1 volt,and increase between windings as you get toward the outer windings.


But,with the bifilar coil,the voltage between windings will always be 50 volts.
So,i see one coil with an uneven voltage between windings,and the other with an even voltage between windings.

So,what dose this mean ?
If each winding is seen as the two plates of a capacitor,and one coil dose not have an even voltage between winding,and the other dose-how would the stored capacitive energy stack up between the two?

Then there is the magnetic field--how would it differ between the two?
Dose the voltage potential between windings play any part in how the magnetic field will propagate around those windings,and that coil as a whole ?.


Brad

In response to your last post to me.....

It took me some time to figure that one out and even though I know it well now, im still thinking about how we can take advantage of the bifi situation.

The difference between having 1v difference between adjacent turns and having a 50v difference should be a huge alteration of how the capacitance reacts for each.

And I would think that the most notable effect would be that the bifi capacitance would react much faster to accepting an immediate input than the monofilar winding mostly for the reason that a 50v difference between each turn should have a much greater capacitive attraction between the 2 charges than would only a 1v difference. Thats how I see it and Im sticking to it. Like if instantaneously the 50v difference appears between each turn, how does that compare to 1v between each turn?

Tesla says in the pat  that the bifi coil will accept an input and ignore the coils induction and will only be impeded by the resistance of the coil a a whole. Read that again and let it sink in. It very possible that looking into the resonance aspect of the bifilar is not the right direction here, but disruptive discharge pulsing is the way to go.

What that tells me is that the bifi winding should accept an input 'pulse' to full resistive currents without delay of inductive impedance.  I have to interpret that as the bifi will have a max mag field immediately. A super charged field build in a modifed(bifi vs monofi) coil that the normal coil cannot do.  So I guess that if we can make a magnetic field build at much much higher speeds than a normal winding, then maybe we can take advantage of that with a secondary. So now we would have to look at how a pickup coil or a literal secondary would react to that kind of magnetic impact.

We can just about do that with a very tiny inductance, say maybe a 3 turn primary made of 10ga for example.  So in that situation, we pulse the pri and we use a lot of current to produce that near instantaneous field build to cut the sec.  So if we have a 100 turn coil with say a resistance of 1.4ohm(a real example I just posted earlier ;D ) and we monitor the field build with a pickup coil, the field will build over time giving a gradual induction to the pickup till max pri current. But a 100 turn bifi should, according to Tesla should reach full max mag field build, instantaneously. And we should be able to detect that with a sec or just a pickup coil. Would that produce ou? Dunno yet. Guy was a frikin genious to even come up with such a thing and work out the nature of it. ;) A human oscilloscope he was.

So the 3 turn 10ga at very sub ohm levels and very small inductive impedance vs 100turns of 18ga at 1.4 ohm bifi that reacts with 0 or say even near 0 inductive impedance and many turns with a field build that is faster than the 3 turn winding, which one would be more eff at inducing the sec? Crazy stuff.

So a regular and bifi of 100 turns actually have the same physical capacitance between each turn, but the effect of the voltage difference between each turn should magnify the capacitive attraction between each turn and attracting input, what, 50 times in the example?

Lots to think and do with all that....

Maybe an improvement would be using flat conductors to increase capacitance and reduce resistance and still have a compact coil. Tito had suggested producing a mag field with a capacitor, and maybe thats it.



Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #790 on: April 15, 2017, 02:17:07 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #791 on: April 15, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »
@Tinman,

Here's a diagram of positive and negative current traveling in the same direction. The "Negative Current" is represented by the green colored upside down curve below the zero line:

Maybe this will help you understand synchro.


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #792 on: April 15, 2017, 02:27:40 PM »
Sure, I made a mistake, but I certainly didn't make it on purpose.

But is funny. I know you consider yourself to be well above me in all this stuff, yet I can recognize an approximate coil resistance just by looking at it in a vid without proper perspective. If you are going to stand as an authority on these things here then I would expect the same kind of prowess as I had shown here. Sure you can lay it down and say it was a mistake, but at the time you were laying it down as if it were textbook example of what is going on in conrads coils. You resistance number was so far off that it made a uh and pf coil to look like the outcome was more than 200% worse than it actually is. Thats a big mistake, not a little tiny baby mistake. So its just hard to not think that maybe you are making these changes on purpose for your own benefit at degrading the experiments here. Sorry but as you know, this is not the first time for such mistakes of this sort.

mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #793 on: April 15, 2017, 02:34:48 PM »
When you are talking about a conventional transformer with a core, then the differences are essentially going to be zero.  There is no logical or rational reason for there there to be any real differences.  It doesn't matter if the windings are separate or side by side or on opposite sides of the core.  The primary winding will pump almost 100% of its flux into the high-permeability core irregardless of if the secondary winding is separate from it or inter-meshed with it.  Likewise the only thing that the secondary winding cares about is the fact that it sees changing flux through the core that it is wrapped around.

It sometimes blows my mind how people can't seem to work these things out in their heads by applying their knowledge.  It seems so many people chase after imaginary things like some sort of fairy tale superstition.  It's the same deal with the series bifilar coil, pancake or otherwise.  They are almost indignant that you pose questions about it's application and practicality.  Yet, so far, it seems nobody can actually answer these questions.

So far I have only really put effort into possible resonance of the bifi, that seemed to be the logical possibility considering all the resonance talk associated with them.  I have not concentrated on cap discharge int a bifi or the possible diff of a normal pri/sec vs bifi pri/sec. So that is all just a next step.

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #794 on: April 15, 2017, 02:38:17 PM »
In response to your last post to me.....

It took me some time to figure that one out and even though I know it well now, im still thinking about how we can take advantage of the bifi situation.

The difference between having 1v difference between adjacent turns and having a 50v difference should be a huge alteration of how the capacitance reacts for each.

And I would think that the most notable effect would be that the bifi capacitance would react much faster to accepting an immediate input than the monofilar winding mostly for the reason that a 50v difference between each turn should have a much greater capacitive attraction between the 2 charges than would only a 1v difference. Thats how I see it and Im sticking to it. Like if instantaneously the 50v difference appears between each turn, how does that compare to 1v between each turn?

Tesla says in the pat  that the bifi coil will accept an input and ignore the coils induction and will only be impeded by the resistance of the coil a a whole. Read that again and let it sink in. It very possible that looking into the resonance aspect of the bifilar is not the right direction here, but disruptive discharge pulsing is the way to go.

What that tells me is that the bifi winding should accept an input 'pulse' to full resistive currents without delay of inductive impedance.  I have to interpret that as the bifi will have a max mag field immediately. A super charged field build in a modifed(bifi vs monofi) coil that the normal coil cannot do.  So I guess that if we can make a magnetic field build at much much higher speeds than a normal winding, then maybe we can take advantage of that with a secondary. So now we would have to look at how a pickup coil or a literal secondary would react to that kind of magnetic impact.

We can just about do that with a very tiny inductance, say maybe a 3 turn primary made of 10ga for example.  So in that situation, we pulse the pri and we use a lot of current to produce that near instantaneous field build to cut the sec.  So if we have a 100 turn coil with say a resistance of 1.4ohm(a real example I just posted earlier ;D ) and we monitor the field build with a pickup coil, the field will build over time giving a gradual induction to the pickup till max pri current. But a 100 turn bifi should, according to Tesla should reach full max mag field build, instantaneously. And we should be able to detect that with a sec or just a pickup coil. Would that produce ou? Dunno yet. Guy was a frikin genious to even come up with such a thing and work out the nature of it. ;) A human oscilloscope he was.

So the 3 turn 10ga at very sub ohm levels and very small inductive impedance vs 100turns of 18ga at 1.4 ohm bifi that reacts with 0 or say even near 0 inductive impedance and many turns with a field build that is faster than the 3 turn winding, which one would be more eff at inducing the sec? Crazy stuff.

So a regular and bifi of 100 turns actually have the same physical capacitance between each turn, but the effect of the voltage difference between each turn should magnify the capacitive attraction between each turn and attracting input, what, 50 times in the example?

Lots to think and do with all that....

Maybe an improvement would be using flat conductors to increase capacitance and reduce resistance and still have a compact coil.



Mags

Well,guess i am going to have to wind a couple of pancake coils now-1x mono,and 1x bifiler.

 
Quote
Tito had suggested producing a mag field with a capacitor, and maybe thats it.

All the caps i have pulled apart,have the input taps at the center of the rolls of plates,and so,the current will flow CW around half the windings of each plate,and CCW around the other half of each plate. This would cancel out any magnetic field--maybe that is why they make them like that.


Brad

 

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