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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 326739 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #750 on: April 15, 2017, 12:57:33 AM »
@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,

Message successfully sent to Stephan Hartiberlin this afternoon at 4:15 P.M. CT.

It's time for anyone else who disapproves of these "Disinformation Agents" to let their feelings be heard by Stephan.

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot synchro,as i too will be sending an email to Stefan.

I think you need to go back to that junk forum !EF!-and stay there,as they thrive on rubbish like your's,as it can make AM and PL a heap of money,through sales of books full of secrets.

All i have seen on this thread,is multitudes of unfounded claims and insults from you

Brad


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #751 on: April 15, 2017, 01:04:02 AM »
@Tinselkoala,

You two "Fossil Fuel Lobby Sock Puppets" degraded John Bedini the same way. That's how you both got booted off Aaron's Forum.

I have also been banned from those sites, those sites are for Low IQ incompetent people that talk to themselves and enjoy wasting time.

Tinselkoala is a man with dirty fingers because of all he builds, the knobs of his oscilloscope are damaged because he has used it so much.

You on the other hand are a little whiny baby, nobody is stopping you from building anything. Go and prove TK wrong nobody is stopping you, TK is not tying your hands up, you are free as a bird to go and do whatever you want.

Its funny to see people use this excuse... Tk is stopping me from achieving over unity... Because he is arguing with me on a forum... Poor me... All this bad stuff is happening because of oil companies ... Boo hoo woo  :'( . Everybody who disagrees with overunity  should be banned because once those people are banned overunity  will happen ::)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #752 on: April 15, 2017, 01:37:52 AM »

I cant agree with what you say about the capacitance. Just because it is minute does not mean it does not function. The only difference between a very tiny capacitance or a larger capacitance, in a resonant LC, is the freq of the resonance and the time it takes to ring off once input is taken away. The larger capacitance should ring longer, but each cycle takes longer to complete than the tiny cap.

If we were to discharge an inductor into a cap, the same inductive charge for each cap, the larger cap will have a lower voltage than the smaller cap. None the less, the tiny cap will take all that the inductor can give, just like the large cap will, just that the smaller cap will be at a higher voltage than the larger cap, of which levels out the playing field as to which cap is more significant than the other

By saying that the capacitance of a bifi coil is so insignificant that it cant be noticed or even compare to a larger cap is nonsense. The tiny capacitance, no matter how small can hold just as much energy as a larger cap. The problem with realization of that is the difference in voltage for each respectively.   Sure you can have 2 caps 100uf and 1uf and compare. But if both are rated and limited to 16v, then yes, the larger cap can and will be a more significant charge at the same voltage level for each. Maybe some people have that stuck in their heads and thats just how it is. But lets use a 1uf at 1kv in comparison to the 100uf at 16v. Now the amount of energy in each is so much closer.

Mags

Okay, so let's use Conrad's numbers for his series bifilar pancake coil from his second clip and make some inferences.

His numbers:  34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance and a 3.9 megahertz self-resonant frequency.

We know that air typically breaks down at 20 kilovolts per centimeter.  Let's assume the spacing between turns is one millimeter and we will simply ballpark the breakdown though the insulation as 4 kilovolts.  In other words, we are doubling the air breakdown to factor in the insulation.

Max energy stored in the self-capacitance (at peak voltage):  E = 1/2 * 49 pF * (4 kV)^2 =  392 microjoules.

How much current does that correspond to (at peak current):  i = sqrt ((2*E)/L) =  4.8 amps

So the RMS current through the self-resonating coil would be on the order of 4.8/1.414 = 3.39 amp RMS

So if we assume a 10-ohm coil the power dissipated would be on the order of 3.39^2 x 10 = 114 watts.

Obviously it is not realistic to have a hand-sized self-resonating pancake coil dissipating about 114 watts.  So let's scale everything down to 10 watts dissipation.  So the RMS current has to be about one amp and the peak current 1.414 amps.  So the inductive energy becomes 34 microjoules.  That translates into a peak capacitance voltage of 1178 volts.

That seems pretty realistic.  You have a fairly hot pancake coil self-resonating at 2356 volts peak to peak, storing 34 microjoules of energy and you are feeding about 10 watts of continuous power into it by some means to keep it resonating at 3.9 megahertz.

So the questions must be asked:  SO WHAT, and WHY?

Why would I want to store a measly 34 mircojoules of energy in a resonant cavity blazing away at 3.9 megahertz when I have to continuously pump 10 watts into the series bifilar pancake coil to sustain the resonance?

What precisely is that going to do for me?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #752 on: April 15, 2017, 01:37:52 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #753 on: April 15, 2017, 01:52:25 AM »
No
The calculated amp hours a battery will deliver,is based around a !usable! voltage value--which in most cases is between 10.5 volts and 13.2 volts for a 12 volt battery-not just 12 volts.

So,for every hour your load draws 5 amp's from that battery,the energy delivered to the load will be less and less every hour.


Brad

@Tinman,

Please answer the question:

What amount of power would be required to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density in an "Inductor Coil" with a measured inductance of 1 Henry?

I don't want to re-hear why the answer of "1 Ampere Hour" that I supplied is wrong; I want the to hear the right one if indeed it's wrong. Milehigh's opinion that the question is meaningless is unacceptable; If you want lynch me over this, so-be-it.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #754 on: April 15, 2017, 02:11:07 AM »
Also let's use Conrad's numbers again to look at the series bifilar coil a different way:

34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance

Let's just say that a reasonable peak-to-peak voltage for the self-resonating coil is 400 volts.

So the capacitive energy is 0.98 microjoules.

Now, I am going to make an apples and oranges comparison here.  Let's assume the inductor is pulsed at a low duty cycle in some kind of pulse circuit such that the average power dissipation from the 10-ohm coil is low and not an issue, and the peak current through the coil is 400 milliamperes.

So the inductive energy is 2.72 mircojoules.

Well, in this apples and oranges comparison, the two energy levels are pretty comparable and it certainly doesn't look like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.  However, there is one caveat.  If the coil is functioning in some kind of pulse circuit the self-capacitance is not really there, there is no real self-resonance taking place.  In that context you have what looks like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.

Finally, one last kick at the napkin.

If the self-resonance is say 40 volts peak-to-peak, then the energy stored in the self-capacitance is 0.0098 microjoules.  And the energy in the coll at 400 milliamperes is 2.72 microjoules.

In this apples and oranges comparison the inductive energy is 277 times the capacitive energy.  So more like a big racoon on the back on an elephant than a gnat on the back of an elephant.

Note how everything is in microjoules territory?  Here is an experiment for the "daring" - and it is an exercise in number crunching.  Find the right capacitance value for 10 microjoules of energy to charge the capacitor up to 10 volts.  Then touch the two terminals of the capacitor to your tongue and see what 10 microjoules feels like.  I am not even sure you will be able to feel the discharge.

What purpose does the series bifilar pancake or regular series bifilar coil serve?  I have asked this question many times and never got an answer.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #754 on: April 15, 2017, 02:11:07 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #755 on: April 15, 2017, 02:46:24 AM »
Also let's use Conrad's numbers again to look at the series bifilar coil a different way:

34 microhenries, 49 picofarads of self-capacitance

Let's just say that a reasonable peak-to-peak voltage for the self-resonating coil is 400 volts.

So the capacitive energy is 0.98 microjoules.

Now, I am going to make an apples and oranges comparison here.  Let's assume the inductor is pulsed at a low duty cycle in some kind of pulse circuit such that the average power dissipation from the 10-ohm coil is low and not an issue, and the peak current through the coil is 400 milliamperes.

So the inductive energy is 2.72 mircojoules.

Well, in this apples and oranges comparison, the two energy levels are pretty comparable and it certainly doesn't look like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.  However, there is one caveat.  If the coil is functioning in some kind of pulse circuit the self-capacitance is not really there, there is no real self-resonance taking place.  In that context you have what looks like a gnat sitting on the back of an elephant.

Finally, one last kick at the napkin.

If the self-resonance is say 40 volts peak-to-peak, then the energy stored in the self-capacitance is 0.0098 microjoules.  And the energy in the coll at 400 milliamperes is 2.72 microjoules.

In this apples and oranges comparison the inductive energy is 277 times the capacitive energy.  So more like a big racoon on the back on an elephant than a gnat on the back of an elephant.

Note how everything is in microjoules territory?  Here is an experiment for the "daring" - and it is an exercise in number crunching.  Find the right capacitance value for 10 microjoules of energy to charge the capacitor up to 10 volts.  Then touch the two terminals of the capacitor to your tongue and see what 10 microjoules feels like.  I am not even sure you will be able to feel the discharge.

What purpose does the series bifilar pancake or regular series bifilar coil serve?  I have asked this question many times and never got an answer.

MileHigh

@Milehigh,

Here's your answer; If you believe the question I re-asked above is meaningless, how can anyone place any credibility in your chronic de-bunking of Tesla's serial bifilar pancake coil? 

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #756 on: April 15, 2017, 03:12:15 AM »
@Milehigh,

You obviously either don't know your basics, or you're a stinking fraud. Now, which one is it?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #756 on: April 15, 2017, 03:12:15 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #757 on: April 15, 2017, 03:35:15 AM »
@Citfa

How do we know you're telling the truth? Anyone can say anything, like I was a Naval aviator who kidded about leading the "Blue Angels". I think you're a liar. You can't understand basic laws of electronics and magnetism. Knock it off. The ruse is up. Everyone can see how little you really know. I'll tell you what's boring is trying to teach you simple basics you perpetually deny.




Allen You better talk to your lawyer before you call someone a liar on a public forum again.  He can explain what the consequences of your actions could be.  Defamation of character for no reason is punishable by our legal system.  I could easily own all you have if i desired to pursue your false claims against me.  You need to retract that statement with a public apology immediately.


Carroll

Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #758 on: April 15, 2017, 03:51:59 AM »
My request has been sent to have Allen Burgess AKA Synchro1 permanently banned from this forum.  He has done nothing but cause trouble ever since he was allowed again to start posting.  He obviously has only one goal and that is to cause as much disruption of this forum as possible.  We certainly have better things to do than provide entertainment for a nine year old bully.


Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #758 on: April 15, 2017, 03:51:59 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #759 on: April 15, 2017, 04:34:24 AM »

Allen You better talk to your lawyer before you call someone a liar on a public forum again.  He can explain what the consequences of your actions could be.  Defamation of character for no reason is punishable by our legal system.  I could easily own all you have if i desired to pursue your false claims against me.  You need to retract that statement with a public apology immediately.


Carroll

@Citfa,

Sue me you prevaricating "Crackpot"! Wait until you see my counter complaint for frivolous litigation. First you stated you studied electronics for 50 years, then you admitted all you did was sweep floors in a machine shop for 30.


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #760 on: April 15, 2017, 05:26:29 AM »
@Citfa,

You started this problem with me over a year and a half ago when Whoppyjump asked for an explanation of "Flyback". I explained to him back then that positive current goes into the coil, then when the input current's interrupted, the magnetic field collapses and negative current goes out.

You contacted Stephan in Berlin and asked him to lock the thread down. Now just what in the hell is your problem? What is it that you fail to understand about my explanation? Why is it impossible for you to comprehend that?

You advanced your totally preposterous theory that "Negative Current" is imaginary. That's why you're constantly berated by me!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #760 on: April 15, 2017, 05:26:29 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #761 on: April 15, 2017, 06:34:30 AM »
@Tinselkoala,

You refer to the X,Y coordinate discharge graph as "Differential Calculus". The graph would need a third Z axis to qualify. That's you trying to sound too smart.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #762 on: April 15, 2017, 07:28:21 AM »
The "1 Ampere Hour" is defined as at 1 volt therefore it's equal to one "Watt Hour". A six volt battery, discharging into the inductor over 10 minutes would require 1 ampere of current to deliver 6 watts. That's a lot of power to run into an inductor. A Henry is a large value like a Farad, and a Tesla of magnetic flux density is a very powerful magnetic force. These factors would come into play in the industrial sector. Laboratory coils usually measure in the Micro-Henries and would use the Oersted for the magnetic force measurement and the coulomb for the input power.

These factors are essential for electronics engineers who design T.V.'s, and especially to calculate Hi-voltage discharges from "Flyback" transformers.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #763 on: April 15, 2017, 08:58:27 AM »
@Tinselkoala,

You refer to the X,Y coordinate discharge graph as "Differential Calculus". The graph would need a third Z axis to qualify. That's you trying to sound too smart.

You just keep coming up with new howlers, in addition to misrepresenting what I "refer" to. See this? d(quantity)/dt, a differential, the change in a quantity over a change in time, or the SLOPE of a quantity/time graph, or to put it in one simple word of four letters, a RATE at which the QUANTITY changes.

Quote
In mathematics, differential calculus is a subfield of calculus concerned with the study of the rates at which quantities change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Tangent_to_a_curve.svg/200px-Tangent_to_a_curve.svg.png

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #764 on: April 15, 2017, 09:22:42 AM »
The "1 Ampere Hour" is defined as at 1 volt therefore it's equal to one "Watt Hour".

NO, it ISN'T.  The Ampere-Hour is a measure of CHARGE and is not "defined as at 1 volt".  The Ampere is 1 Coulomb per second, and one hour is 3600 seconds, so the Ampere-Hour is 3600 COULOMBS of CHARGE. Where do you see VOLTS in that definition? Nowhere except in your mind.

The Watt-Hour is a measure of ENERGY. The Watt is 1 Joule per second, and one hour is 3600 seconds, so the Watt-hour is 3600 JOULES of ENERGY.

The JOULE is NOT EQUAL to the COULOMB.The Ampere-Hour IS NOT EQUAL to one WATT-HOUR. CHARGE is not ENERGY, Division is not Multiplication.  I know you flunked calculus and physics; did you flunk basic algebra as well?

You should at least try googling BEFORE you make silly posts.

Quote
A six volt battery, discharging into the inductor over 10 minutes would require 1 ampere of current to deliver 6 watts. That's a lot of power to run into an inductor. A Henry is a large value like a Farad, and a Tesla of magnetic flux density is a very powerful magnetic force. These factors would come into play in the industrial sector. Laboratory coils usually measure in the Micro-Henries and would use the Oersted for the magnetic force measurement and the coulomb for the input power.

These factors are essential for electronics engineers who design T.V.'s, and especially to calculate Hi-voltage discharges from "Flyback" transformers.

Once again you are making no sense. "Laboratory Coils" could be of any inductance value at all depending on their purpose, six watts is not "a lot of power to run into an inductor", the Coulomb is not a measure of power, the Oersted is not a measure of force it is the unit of the magnetic quantity H, it is in units of Ampere/meter, and EEs who design TVs would be laughing their guts out to read your string of nonsense posts.

 

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