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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 338799 times)

Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #240 on: March 30, 2017, 02:43:54 PM »
some shout: The Earth is flat! you fools,  it has been proven! the earth is the center of the galaxy! you fools it has been proven.

clearly we live on the same earth,  and we now believe its a sphere (most of us).

maybe in the future we find out its a hollow sphere,  and we live in the inside.

What I'm trying to say,  is its all a matter of perspective.

you can see the electrons and atoms as particles, because it was proven,  as was the flat earth.

I never believed this to be true. all is light,  all is made of light fields and vortexes. particles are made up to under stand the complexity of the fields easier. but its only a trick,  that has its limitations. even the dielectric and magnetic fields are made of the same stuff. light.

please believe your own truth, which ever works best for you.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #241 on: March 30, 2017, 06:28:24 PM »
Consider the image below, describing a very complicated circuit.

With the switch closed, does the LED light? In which direction does the current (conventional) flow through the coil?

When the switch is opened, does the LED flash? In which direction MUST the current flow from the coil if the LED is to flash?
 


People may agree or disagree about opinions. But as Richard Feynman said...

Quote
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

Offline Jeg

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #242 on: March 30, 2017, 07:20:33 PM »
Consider the image below, describing a very complicated circuit.

With the switch closed, does the LED light? In which direction does the current (conventional) flow through the coil?

When the switch is opened, does the LED flash? In which direction MUST the current flow from the coil if the LED is to flash?
 


People may agree or disagree about opinions. But as Richard Feynman said...

Is there any chance to confuse counter emf with current? If current doesn't reverse then why a secondary added to the coil in your drawing gives the attached waveform? Blue is drain, yellow is across the secondary. Switching is at low side and not high as in your drawing but the end result is the same. Notice that when current is flawing, secondary is negative. When switch opens secondary changes direction and goes to positive. Reverse of counter emf across any secondary indicates reverse of current flawing across a primary. Led lights because you apply in the right direction a voltage potential. If current was flawing at the same direction across your primary, then across the secondary we would see a negative value which goes even more negative when switch is open. Isn't that true?     

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #242 on: March 30, 2017, 07:20:33 PM »
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Offline Jeg

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #243 on: March 30, 2017, 07:26:35 PM »
Purple is current across the primary. Yellow is the voltage across the secondary. I see a current which increases and suddenly changes to the other direction towards zero.

I think that changing direction of current is not the right term to describe it, and there lays all the misunderstanding. It is more a rapid break to the current flow and not an actual reverse of current. But coil will react by changing voltage polarity.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #244 on: March 30, 2017, 07:39:13 PM »
@Jeg:   look at the sign (polarity) of the EMF in Faraday's Law of Induction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction


Is it possible that "some people" are confused about this? Certainly, just look back in the thread for examples. But we are not talking here about current/voltage induced in a secondary, we are talking about what happens to the current in a single coil when the power to that coil is interrupted.

If you look at the schematic, you will see that when the switch is opened the _bottom_ end of the coil becomes Positive in analogy to a battery. This is the only way that the LED can flash, since it is reverse-biased when the switch is closed. So when the switch is opened, you can think of the voltage on the coil as "reversing" but the CURRENT definitely does not. When the switch is opened, the coil tries to resist changing in its magnetic field and to do this it must keep current flowing in the _same_ direction as before, for as long as it can. If there is no path for the current to flow, the _voltage_ increases as the coil attempts to keep current flowing, until something breaks down, like a spark. This is the source of the great "inductive spike" in _voltage_ that happens when the current through a coil is interrupted. This is also why we put reverse-biased diodes across, for example, relay coils to allow the current someplace to go, so the voltage rise doesn't damage something. The diodes are only reverse biased when the coil is powered! When the power is removed, the _voltage_ reverses so the diode is no longer reverse-biased and the _current_ has someplace to go (back into the coil through the diode, always flowing in the same direction as it did when the coil was powered.)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #244 on: March 30, 2017, 07:39:13 PM »
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Offline Jeg

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #245 on: March 30, 2017, 07:48:59 PM »
Thank you Tinsel, i added above that changing direction is not the right term. It is actually a break to the flaw. While it was increasing, then it suddenly decreased. The question is: For this very brief time interval where current changes from a max value to zero. Will the magnetic poles of the coil reverse or not?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #246 on: March 30, 2017, 07:54:49 PM »
No, the coil tries its best to _resist_ changes in the magnetic field. Since the current does not reverse, neither does the polarity of the field produced by the coil.

Now, when a parallel capacitor is added to form a tank circuit, matters are different, as energy is transferred back and forth between the capacitor and the coil during the tank's "ringing".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #246 on: March 30, 2017, 07:54:49 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #247 on: March 30, 2017, 08:24:35 PM »
I think what will help people is just to repeat what TK said about the coil changing from being something that is being energized by the battery and storing energy to something that is discharging energy into the LED load.

The flywheel analogy could be enlightening for some people also.  Voltage is equivalent to applying torque to the flywheel.  The voltage has two possible polarities and the torque has two possible directions.  Current is equivalent to the rotational speed of the flywheel. Current can flow in two possible directions and the speed of rotating flywheel can be in two possible directions.

So, what is the flywheel version of TK's simple circuit?

Imagine a large flywheel on a nice ball bearing mount with a smaller-diameter hand grip so a person can spin up the flywheel with their hands.  So in this example, a person applying torque to the flywheel with human muscle power is equivalent to the battery.  So, you spin up the flywheel with your hands for 10 seconds.  Then, you apply disk brakes to the flywheel until the flywheel stops rotating.  That's it.  The disk brakes are equivalent to the LED.  The disk brakes getting hot from friction is the equivalent to the LED emitting light and heat.

Notice that the flywheel always spins in the same direction.  i.e.; the current through the coil always flows in the same direction.

Simple as cake, a piece of pie.

Now, the fun begins.  Especially for our expanded-mind expanded-consciousness real thinkers that are not bound by the mundane limits of a mundane human imagination and existence.  I speak to the free thinkers that are not mere drones indoctrinated by the current mass brainwashing system that guides us through life like so many sheep.

We know that a flywheel is equivalent to a coil.  So what about RESONANCE, when a coil is resonating at its resonant frequency?  How does that relate to a flywheel?

i.e.; The brass pancake flywheel at its resonant frequency.  Mechanical self-resonance!

Offline Jeg

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #248 on: March 30, 2017, 08:27:49 PM »
No, the coil tries its best to _resist_ changes in the magnetic field. Since the current does not reverse, neither does the polarity of the field produced by the coil.

Now, when a parallel capacitor is added to form a tank circuit, matters are different, as energy is transferred back and forth between the capacitor and the coil during the tank's "ringing".

Yes capacitor is an other matter.

 Cemf is reaction to change. It always follows magnetic polarity changes right? It always develops it self in a way so to oppose to magnetic field's changes. Now, when we see a change of cemf across our secondary from negatives to positives. Doesn't that imply that for this brief moment where current decreases to zero there was also a magnetic polarity change? If we would place a field sensor watching the flux. Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #248 on: March 30, 2017, 08:27:49 PM »
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Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #249 on: March 30, 2017, 08:34:06 PM »
Quote
it added above that changing direction is not the right term
This is semantic discussion: the current within coil disconnected from circuit behaves like the driver, who realized, he is stirring too right. So he will turn the steering wheel to the left, he will therefore change direction but  he is still stirring to the right at the beginning of his action, just in gradually smaller degree. The important is, his reaction points to the opposite direction than before. In similar way, the collapsing magnetic field will induce the electromotive force of the opposite polarity than the existing current.

With respect to special behavior of bifilar pancake coil this discussion is completely off topic, with respect to overunity subject it's OT even more. We are visiting this forum because of overunity and if we would want to discuss classical physics phenomena, then there are may way more competent forums for it.

Quote
bunch of drivel about how someone should be banned because they don't agree with you
I don't care if someone is agreeing with me - but he should unconditionally agree with possible existence of overunity - or he has nothing to discuss about just in this very forum. If he still discusses and twaddles something, then he is naturally A) off-topic and even B) disruptive to the topic of this forum. Is it really so difficult to understand it? One of reasons why this forum goes to the hell is, because it's flooded with people who are openly hostile to the overunity subject and who systematically changing subject from it. Such a people should be banned from here one after another - or we will not move forward. Me and many others are still visiting this forum in an effort to find ways for overunity development - not for to convince the people about its existence. If I would want to fight with mainstream crackpots about it, then I've many other forums where to go.

Face it or not: this is forum about cats for cat lovers - not about dogs, elephants or even for enemies of cats.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #250 on: March 30, 2017, 08:45:20 PM »
Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.

You absolutely will not.  The current through the coil will drop to zero with no discontinuities at all and you will observe the strength of the corresponding magnetic field drop to zero with no discontinuities at all.

It's incredible how tenacious wrong ideas stay with amateur experimenters because of the bad and incorrect ideas put in their heads by various free energy luminaries.  You can work on your bench for years believing the wrong things and do lots of experiments and effectively partially sleepwalk through them consistently being wrong and believing that you are doing great work.  Evostars is talking about a "Bloch wall" and I think that disinformation can be traced back to the late great John Bedini.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #250 on: March 30, 2017, 08:45:20 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #251 on: March 30, 2017, 08:46:47 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vyg0NX0zh4


The problem with you Zephir, is that you are trying to get people to believe you have a cat, when you are talking about your stuffed toy teddy bear.

You are wrong, you have been proven wrong, and your best course is to apologize and admit your errors and move on.

Or, if you think you can provide your own experiment and demonstration to support your fanciful claims, then by all means DO IT. But we already know you can't, or you would have done so by now.



Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #252 on: March 30, 2017, 08:51:37 PM »
Yes capacitor is an other matter.

 Cemf is reaction to change. It always follows magnetic polarity changes right? It always develops it self in a way so to oppose to magnetic field's changes. Now, when we see a change of cemf across our secondary from negatives to positives. Doesn't that imply that for this brief moment where current decreases to zero there was also a magnetic polarity change? If we would place a field sensor watching the flux. Won't we see a change in magnetic polarity when switch opens?  hmm i need a field sensor.

Direction of current determines polarity of magnetic field, yes? So if current does not reverse,  neither does the magnetic field. How could it be otherwise?

You can use a ratiometric Hall effect sensor like Allegro A1301 or A1321 or similar, they are cheap and easy to work with.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #253 on: March 30, 2017, 08:54:02 PM »
If I would want to fight with mainstream crackpots, then I've many other forums where to go.

LOL  You are a Zanti misfit!

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

Pleased to meet you!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #254 on: March 30, 2017, 08:54:45 PM »
You absolutely will not.  The current through the coil will drop to zero with no discontinuities at all and you will observe the strength of the corresponding magnetic field drop to zero with no discontinuities at all.


Well, almost. In reality all real circuits will have some stray capacitance so there will be some ringing. You can see this slight ringing in Jeg's scopeshots. But less sensitive instrumentation -- like my LED   ;)   is good enough to show the truth and demonstrate the principle.

(snip)

 

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