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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 246643 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #930 on: April 16, 2017, 05:16:12 PM »
At this point in time,i have to ask the same question as MH
--->what advantage is there at driving the coils/inductors at there resonant frequency?.

The single and bifilar coils seem to behave no differently,other than the bifi having a lower resonant frequency. I would think that is because of the higher voltage between turns,as that is the only difference i can find.

Brad

Exactly, where do you go after you have observed it ringing?   Well, what I did that was new was I estimated how much continuous power would have to be pumped into the coil from an outside source to sustain the few microjoules of energy resonating inside the coil.  It is just giving you more information about the coil.

But where do you go?   What practical use is there for the series bifiar pancake or solenoid coil?  This is usually where the train runs out of fuel and stops cold on the tracks.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #931 on: April 16, 2017, 05:38:14 PM »
Are you in the know or are you just a fanboi?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #932 on: April 16, 2017, 06:26:45 PM »
The single wire coil won't ring from a "Shock Charge". You may need a "Make an Instant magnet" trick.

Oh boy! Can't wait for the TK's next thriller Ohmic resistance measurement video with his mighty digital multi meter!


Note the beautiful high q, high amplitude ringing from "shock charging" my single wire MONOFILAR flat coil with a depleted 9v battery. No magnets in sight, just the coil, the battery, some wire, and an oscilloscope. Oh... yes.... and the skill and knowledge to use them.


Anyone with the skill, knowledge and test equipment can reproduce EVERYTHING I have ever demonstrated.

So that lets you out three ways, incompetent ignorant ill-equipped Synchro.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #932 on: April 16, 2017, 06:26:45 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #933 on: April 16, 2017, 06:32:31 PM »
"Coil for Electromagnets." means "Coil for Electro-Magnetizing."

 "The Lorentz force is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point charge due to electromagnetic fields".

The U.S.A. has two North Korean Satellites passing over the country that can deliver an "Electro Magnetic Pulse" that has the deadly force to kill 90% of Americans from proximate consequences. This weapons technology is a direct descendent of "Tesla's Serial Bifilar Pancake Coil", persistently hidden from view by snake oil videos from this conceited agent of disinformation.

Observe what this petulant and paranoid child is accusing me of! "persistently hiding from view" what? North Korean weapons technology, that only exists in his deluded mind? Or information about Tesla's Bifilar pancake coil, which I have been exploring publicly and posting about publicly for years?
None of my videos on this topic fall into the "snake oil" category, and I am not a "conceited agent of disinformation", those are simply more insulting lies from the petulant man-child.  Notice how the insults and accusations he slings at me are near-perfect descriptors of himself.

Quote
Tinselkoala is just a "Cheap Carnival Huckster"! He has no right to be on Youtube.

Send a PM to Stephan Hartiberlin to help me throw this Bum out!

All insults removed from this post.

Preserved for posterity.  Synchro apparently cannot make a single post without saying something stupid and even contradicting himself.

"All insults removed from this post"..... Not quite, you missed a few.

EDIT: I have been informed that it was TinMan who edited away insults from this post of Synchro's. Therefore I withdraw the "idiot", however I feel that Synchro's insults should remain in the original, as evidence.

You cannot refute anything in any of my YT videos, Synchro, so go away and STFU.

(For this latest nonsense you don't deserve a ROFL.... you get a Drop Bear instead.)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 11:35:39 PM by TinselKoala »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #934 on: April 16, 2017, 07:46:11 PM »
For crying out loud.....  this the best you got?

Show us what you've got.  What do you think the patent is all about?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #934 on: April 16, 2017, 07:46:11 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #935 on: April 16, 2017, 08:11:28 PM »
What do you know the patent is all about?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #936 on: April 16, 2017, 11:39:57 PM »
Well I spent literally all day yesterday here on this and made the coil and did the preliminary measurements.

Today I reread the patent, of which, googles rewrite needs some work, so stick with the original.

Ok, here is my vision on this..

'Every' coil, inductor, has its own capacitance. If it is a 1000 turn normal coil and we apply 100v, the voltage differential between turns is .1v. The actual capacity between turns, using the same number of turns, the same wire size, the same winding design, is the same for a bifi coil and the standard. That value does not change between the 2 coils as the proximity and surface area of each turn and its adjacent turns are all physically the same. But the same coil described above in a bifi setup has 50v potential difference between turns. He describe the difference between the 2 capacities of these 2 differently wound coils is 250,000 times!

There is the familiar 3d example out there that describes the bifi as 100 turns and 100v applied, where the normal coil has only 1v potential difference, yet the bifi example still shows 50v between turns just like Teslas 1000 turn example. So the more turns that you use on a normal coil, the lower the potential difference between each turn is and thus lowering the working value of the capacitance by lowering the potential charges the capacitance has to work with. If it were a 10,000 turn regular coil with 100v, the potential difference between each turn is now only .01v charge, yet a 10,000 turn bifi would still have 50v between turns.  So what is the difference for the 10,000 turn example, 2.5mil times??

So the more turns of a regular coil, the capacitance becomes less and less significant compared to the increased inductance for said coil because the potential difference between turns becomes less and less.  Or even if the more turns there ends up more turns with capacity between them, as that capacity increases the potential for each adjacent pair decreases, so for arguments sake, lets say the capacity as a whole figuring in the potential diff,  may remain the same for whatever amount of turns for a normal coil, but inductance increases. With the bifi, that potential difference remains the same no matter how many turns, and the more turns the more physical capacity. So for a bifi the more turns, the total capacity increases. So just those facts show that these 2 different coils definitely have some major differences as the number of turns increases for each. 

A 'perfect' example would be a 2 turn coil. it is essentially a bifi winding! 50v between each adjacent turn. As soon as we make it 3 turns, we have only increased the capacity by 2 and we have decreased the potential to 33.3v between turns. 4 turns increases capacity by 3 and brings sown the potential to 23v. So with that I suppose we can determine the effective capacitance as to whether it is increased, decreased, or remains the same as we increase the number of turns for a standard coil.

So mow the bifi.
2 turns, 100v 50v cap potential
3 turns, 100v 50v cap potential  and double the physical capacitance
4 turns, 100v 50v cap potential  and triple the physical capacitance

100 turns, 100v 50v cap potential and 99 times higher capacity!!   So something is very very different between the bifi and the normal coil self capacitance as the turns for each increases.




I believe the showing of a flat coil in the pat is mostly for easier understanding for the reader of the difference in how the 2 coils are setup and the relationship between turns throughout the winding, as he does say that this can be applied to any way of winding coils, inductors, etc.

Going back to the pat, here are things he says about freq and 'potential'

"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits, a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction."

Now if we look at a 10mh coil of normal winding, if what he says is so, then there must be an initial current in the coil that is allowed to fill the capacity avoiding the inductive delay. But it just so happens that the capacitance of the normal coil has so little value due to the potential between each turn pair is a result of the input divided by the number of turns. So that is something we should look at, if we can. Is there an initial current that enters the normal coil to fill its cap at the instant of applied input, that is just so small we do not see it, unless we look for it? And if we can see it, then we need to compare the bifi in the same manner.


"This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured in the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spirals is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities. self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small."

In the past I have said this all before. Being that the capacitance of the normal coil IS seemingly very insignificant, it is still there. And the freq he is speaking of is possibly very high, so that initial input I spoke of just may be at a very high freq and small due to the capacity being very small. If for the 10mh example the capacity is in the pf and the potential is very low, then to see it we may have to have very good equipment to do so. Dunno yet. I have a 1g scope. I know there is much better. How Tesla came up with this stuff is mesmerizing.


So with that, this is the area I wish to look into. Like I said to MH, the resonance part is not what I am look for right now.

Gota git. Be back later

Mags


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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #936 on: April 16, 2017, 11:39:57 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #937 on: April 17, 2017, 12:39:09 AM »
Quote
"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits, a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction."

Once you have found the self-resonant frequency of your coil by looking for maximum voltage amplitude on your scope, the above suggests a second test to confirm your findings:

[signal generator] -> [coil] -> [non-inductive resistor] -> [ground]

Suppose your coil is two ohms and self-resonates at 200 kHz and you use a 10-ohm non-inductive resistor.

If your signal generator is set to output 12 volts peak-to-peak at 200 kHz then you should observe a 10-volt peak-to-peak signal across the resistor that is in phase with the signal generator if the coil is acting like a series LC circuit.  Then, as you increase the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the impedance of the inductor starts to predominate.  Likewise, as you decrease the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the capacitance starts to predominate.  However, will that really happen considering that we are dealing with a distributed capacitance and not a true series capacitance?

There may be a surprise, and at the self-resonant frequency of 200 kHz, there is no voltage across the resistor.  That would be explained by the coil acting as a parallel LC circuit at the self-resonant frequency.

An astute experimenter would measure the self-resonant frequency of his coil by looking for the maximum voltage swing, and then move on to this second test and do a full frequency sweep looking at the voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.  There may be some "surprises" to be found where there may be one or more "poles" and "zeroes" in the observed voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #938 on: April 17, 2017, 01:06:54 AM »
@Tinman,

My vendetta with TK goes back to one of his earliest coil comparison videos nearly eight years ago. I had a large coffee can size solenoid bifilar professionally wound at an electric motor shop in Eureka California around the same time, and packed the core with welding rods for my first Bedini SSG. I already knew how to charge and pulse the coil from Dave Dinan, but I really didn't know exactly what to expect. I shocked twice; Once to shock charge and ring  it, then a second time. The spark from the second swipe was around ten times as large as the ring pulse. Well, everyone's already heard about the rack of carving knives that careened about twenty five feet towards the coil. The coil was unaffected by the attraction.

So you admit that you have been waging a "vendetta" against me for "nearly eight years". 

Do you also admit that you have been posting the insults and fake claims about me, in a deliberate effort to damage me personally, affect my reputation negatively, and affect my income and livelihood? Your emotive insults are also clearly designed to affect my health as well, by raising emotional responses in me which increase heart rate, blood pressure and other negative effects. Is that not true? Have you ever apologized to me for insulting me, posting negative comments about me on other websites, defacing my YouTube channel, and so on? 



"everyone's already heard about the rack of carving knives that careened about twenty five feet towards the coil. The coil was unaffected by the attraction."

I'll wager a cheezburger that you cannot demonstrate this. A rack of knives, "careening" about 25 feet towards the coffee-can sized coil, with the coil being "unaffected by the attraction". Let's see you demonstrate this. I think you won't, because you cannot.

You've made false claims and distorted and misrepresented many things before. Are you sure about what you are claiming now? PROVE IT.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #938 on: April 17, 2017, 01:06:54 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #939 on: April 17, 2017, 01:13:06 AM »

...
An astute experimenter would measure the self-resonant frequency of his coil by looking for the maximum voltage swing, and then move on to this second test and do a full frequency sweep looking at the voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.  There may be some "surprises" to be found where there may be one or more "poles" and "zeroes" in the observed voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.

Yes, the Tesla bifilar coil construction can inherently give resonances at several frequencies and it is to be measured whether a parallel or a series resonance comes about at the first resonance frequency which is defined by the series connection of the two windings and the self-capacitance of the coil structure.
Here are two of  my earlier posts on this topic:
http://overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/topicseen/#msg360645 and
http://overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg361749/topicseen/#msg361749 

The links do not work any more, unfortunately but on page 4 of this PDF file for instance the impedance curve is shown in the function of frequency:  http://www.ik4hdq.net/doc/testi/TrappCoassMulti.pdf
Here is a paper of a measurement setup http://www.iw2fnd.it/sites/default/files/docs/Trappole_01_EN.pdf

EDIT:  I managed to bring back my original link that was included in in my earlier post:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130321175122/http://vk1od.net/antenna/coaxtrap/index.htm  this includes further references and corrections to earlier studies

Gyula   

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #940 on: April 17, 2017, 01:34:10 AM »
Gyula,

You obviously know your stuff.  I am really not proficient in these matters, more of a Joe Blow that just knows some basics.  For example, the attached two images of Smith charts make me queasy just looking at them, and I never really got into the advanced EM stuff.

MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #940 on: April 17, 2017, 01:34:10 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #941 on: April 17, 2017, 02:08:07 AM »
Once you have found the self-resonant frequency of your coil by looking for maximum voltage amplitude on your scope, the above suggests a second test to confirm your findings:

[signal generator] -> [coil] -> [non-inductive resistor] -> [ground]

Suppose your coil is two ohms and self-resonates at 200 kHz and you use a 10-ohm non-inductive resistor.

If your signal generator is set to output 12 volts peak-to-peak at 200 kHz then you should observe a 10-volt peak-to-peak signal across the resistor that is in phase with the signal generator if the coil is acting like a series LC circuit.  Then, as you increase the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the impedance of the inductor starts to predominate.  Likewise, as you decrease the frequency you should see the voltage across the resistor start to drop as the capacitance starts to predominate.  However, will that really happen considering that we are dealing with a distributed capacitance and not a true series capacitance?

There may be a surprise, and at the self-resonant frequency of 200 kHz, there is no voltage across the resistor.  That would be explained by the coil acting as a parallel LC circuit at the self-resonant frequency.

An astute experimenter would measure the self-resonant frequency of his coil by looking for the maximum voltage swing, and then move on to this second test and do a full frequency sweep looking at the voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.  There may be some "surprises" to be found where there may be one or more "poles" and "zeroes" in the observed voltage and phase across the non-inductive resistor.

Behold:

This is a one-minute sweep of frequency between 10 kHz to 500 kHz of one of my TBF pancakes. (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz, distributed capacitance calculated as approx. 513 pF)

The Yellow trace is the voltage across a 9.4 ohm, 1 percent, noninductive precision resistor pair (2 x 4.7 ohm in "opposite series"), connected as you describe. It behaves just as you predict for the parallel LC circuit, with the minimum voltage across the resistor occurring at the resonant frequency of 273.2 kHz.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #942 on: April 17, 2017, 02:28:42 AM »
A bit more dramatic:  30 second sweeps from 10 kHz to 1 MHz, same setup as above.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #943 on: April 17, 2017, 02:31:28 AM »

Note the beautiful high q, high amplitude ringing from "shock charging" my single wire MONOFILAR flat coil with a depleted 9v battery. No magnets in sight, just the coil, the battery, some wire, and an oscilloscope. Oh... yes.... and the skill and knowledge to use them.


Anyone with the skill, knowledge and test equipment can reproduce EVERYTHING I have ever demonstrated.

So that lets you out three ways, incompetent ignorant ill-equipped Synchro.


@Tinselkoala,


Another "Krell 7th level" Scope Shot? That's the same scope you can't read "Negative Current" off of!  It would help  to understand Australian to translate this: A watt hour is a negative Henry.


Neither you nor Milehigh has ever had a Physics course nor can either of you read or understand the Algebraic expressions we use in the "Henry Formula". This is where you both turn into Hydro-encpheletic Pinheads.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #944 on: April 17, 2017, 02:43:38 AM »
@Milehigh and Tinselkoala,


I first mentioned "Negative-micro henries" to you both on Gotolucs Than Heinz regenerative gain video, and I insisted you include a "Negative Henry" value as a gain of power factor to add onto the COP. Neither of you had a clue and that raised an eyebrow on you frauds back then. A higher inductance coil field would factor into an electric power equivalent to deduct from the input. You two sneaked 'Rim Lead" onto the tote wheel in favor of loss.

 

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