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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 370077 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #540 on: April 10, 2017, 03:27:10 AM »
@Mags,

Eddy hysteresis. Worse in the bottle neck! I'm talking about the water flow through the bottle neck there, not the capacitor discharge. All comparisons are not exactly the same as the real thing.

Now you have completely stopped making any sense at all.

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #541 on: April 10, 2017, 03:33:46 AM »

If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

You are exactly right. And synchro's "delay" is the result of his not understanding what he is talking about. It may be possible to arrange inductances and resistances to give some maximum rate of charge-discharge at some point other than the beginning of the cycles, but that is not what synchro claimed. His claim is very clear in his own words and ever since then he has been trying to weasel out of admitting he was wrong, by constructing strawmen and moving goalposts.

If he thinks he can demonstrate otherwise by arranging some particular RCL circuit and measuring it on a scope ... let him do it. But it won't correspond to what he said in the beginning about _capacitors_.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #542 on: April 10, 2017, 04:42:52 AM »
I mean seriously. This isn't exactly Rocket Science.

Or maybe it is.     :P


Below see Charge-Discharge curves of a 10 uF electrolytic capacitor charging to and discharging from approx. 5 volts. First scopeshot is with no resistor, second scopeshot is with 100R resistor, third scopeshot is with 1k resistor.  Where is the "bottleneck"? Where are the points of fastest charge rate, fastest discharge rate in each case?

(Disregard the HW frequency counter, it is off for some reason. The first shot is at 200 Hz, second is at about 60 Hz, the third shot is at 10 Hz.)

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #542 on: April 10, 2017, 04:42:52 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #543 on: April 10, 2017, 05:03:16 AM »
Wow, I see they all look the same but the time base has changed.

Somebody told me that they are exponential functions, but the base is a special number.  Like it's not say a base of 10 like 10^x.  (10 to the power of x).  The base is this number "e" also known as Euler's number.

"e" = 2.7182818284590452353602874713527...

It's an irrational number and they have calculated it out to over a trillion digits.

The scope shots show a voltage waveform as an exponential function.  The slope of the voltage waveform is actually the current because we are looking at the voltage across a capacitor.  The current waveform is an exponential function also.  The slope of the current waveform is also an exponential function.  And the slope of that function is also an exponential function.  And the slope of the new function is also an exponential function.  In fact, it goes on forever.

It's a brain buster.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #544 on: April 10, 2017, 06:09:50 AM »
I mean seriously. This isn't exactly Rocket Science.

Or maybe it is.     :P


Below see Charge-Discharge curves of a 10 uF electrolytic capacitor charging to and discharging from approx. 5 volts. First scopeshot is with no resistor, second scopeshot is with 100R resistor, third scopeshot is with 1k resistor.  Where is the "bottleneck"? Where are the points of fastest charge rate, fastest discharge rate in each case?

(Disregard the HW frequency counter, it is off for some reason. The first shot is at 200 Hz, second is at about 60 Hz, the third shot is at 10 Hz.)

Maybe for the sake of argument can you zoom in on the line of discharge.  At some point it may look like a flat line due to time scale, and maybe at that point a csr would be needed to see actual current if voltage drop is not visible.

Just thinkin

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #544 on: April 10, 2017, 06:09:50 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #545 on: April 10, 2017, 10:59:18 AM »
@Tinman,



Quote
Which way does current flow in a Ruhmkopff Secondary Coil when the current's interrupted in the primary

Are you talking about the ignition coil?-which was not invented by Ruhmkopff,but by Nicholas Callan in 1836.

First off,from what i have read,it seems as though we are talking about interrupting the current flow through a single coil/inductor,in which case,the voltage will invert across the coil/inductoor,but the current will continue to flow in the same direction.
If you are talking about an ignition coil,then the same applies with the secondary-only the end of the secondary is joined to the start of the primary-->remember,with an ignition coil,where points were used,it was the ground side of the primary that was switched via the points,and not the positive side of the primary. The end of the secondary was joined to the start of the primary(the positive end),and then the start of the secondary became the end in which the current flowed from,as that would be sent to the positive side of the spark plugs via the distributor.
So the ground(negative)was your engine block,and the sparkplug leads were your positive side.
So,as you can see,the current still flowed in the same direction through the secondary, when the points opened,and broke the current flow into the primary.

Quote
and can you define "Negative Current"?

The flow of current has no polarity-it has direction.
Voltage has polarity.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #546 on: April 10, 2017, 11:16:30 AM »
 author=Zephir link=topic=17186.msg503665#msg503665


Quote
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread

You will find that nearly all threads here on OU.com,have !off topic!! conversation within them.
There is no way i have the time to be moving all off topic comments into other threads.
Some off topic conversations lead to people being taught things they never new-like the current flow through a coil,when the source current is interrupted.

Quote
The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics.

And there you go-a classic example.
It is not theoretical at all--it is fact,that the current will continue to flow in the same direction through the coil,when the source current is interrupted/disconnected .

Quote
The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics

Who are these !pathoskeptics! you speak of?-->those that correct others mistakes perhaps?.

Quote
today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise.

Could you point us in the direction of one of these !private! researchers that have achieved OU ?.

Quote
This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

There are many here that will build and test any circuit,that has a claim of OU behind it-including myself.
But what we have found is,when those that replicate claimed OU circuits,and are skilled in the art of EE and accurate measurement protocols,come up with under unity results,the claimant of the OU device simply say that we dont know what were doing-or we made errors in measurements.


Brad

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #546 on: April 10, 2017, 11:16:30 AM »
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Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #547 on: April 10, 2017, 11:35:25 AM »
For those, who want to ask me a question, Personal message me. Dont do it via these posts. It will drown, and i won't see/read it.

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #548 on: April 10, 2017, 11:42:49 AM »
Quote
Who are these !pathoskeptics! you speak of?-->those that correct others mistakes perhaps?

The pathoskeptic is everyone who for example says, that overunity doesn't exist, because he never observed it during his tinkering (like @TinselKoala is saying) or that overunity doesn't exist, because it would be utilized already and awarded with Nobel prizes (@MileHigh and others). Such a nonsenses shouldn't be tolerated here...

From perspective of mainstream physicists whole the overunity subject is also mistake and they oppose it wildly, so that the usage of "mistake" word is subjective trolling too.
Once the bifilar coil exhibits self-capacitance, then its current after interruption may evolve differently, because it can behave like the capacitor too.
The idealized assumptions of mainstream physics trolls therefore will not apply here and only experiments can determine, what we will observe there.

Quote
There is no way i have the time to be moving all off topic comments into other threads

My question is, if it's possible to create discussion thread, where I could delete/hide all off-topic and trolls posts (including those of other moderators) according to my own opinion and to keep the subject coherent in this way?
You can set up this thread in this way for example instead of creating a solely new one.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #548 on: April 10, 2017, 11:42:49 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #549 on: April 10, 2017, 12:12:32 PM »
You need to get your facts straight, Zephir, if you are going to be mentioning me or MH in your posts.

And you need to provide some evidence of your own for the outrageous claims you continue to make, while you dodge and weave without admitting the times you have been soundly refuted. You have _never_ posted a single demonstration or experiment of your own... and I know why: You cannot.

Explain the LED flashes in my Coil Current Demonstration (2) if you believe that current reverses when the power to a coil is interrupted. Why are flyback diodes often placed across inductors that are pulsed, and in which direction does the current flow through those diodes? How many times has this challenge been made to you now, without any response?  You know by now that you are wrong and that is why you avoid trying to answer. Admit it!


Quote
where I could delete/hide all off-topic and trolls posts (including those of other moderators) according to my own opinion

But didn't you say that this wasn't the place for opinions? Make up your hypocritical mind, why don't you?  If you want to be the censor, move to some other forum, like EF. I'm sure we will be happy to see you force your "opinions" on others over there.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #550 on: April 10, 2017, 12:30:10 PM »
Nope. The spark discharge is not "zero resistance" nor is it at the speed of light, the speed of light is not infinite, and a perpendicular or rather vertical line on any quantity-time graph means that the quantity changes _instantly_, that is with zero time passing. And this does not occur in any real system, especially not capacitor discharge.

And it's "you're" not "your", as in "You're wrong yet again synchro."


@Tinselkoala,


The non-perpendicularity you're speaking of would require an electron microscope to visualize on a graph. The percentage of slope would be infinitesimal and impossible to ascertain with the naked eye, because the graph line would require some degree of thickness. What about Tinman's last comment about the imaginary existence of negative current, shared by Citfa, Verpies, Miilehigh and evidently you? You've conveniently dodged this issue as less important throughout the course of this thread; You and Mags act like the Jug comparison was some kind of unforgivable sacrilege. A poor comparison is not being impudently "dead wrong" like you.


What about the preposterous notion just posted again by Tinman that current can't reverse polarity, only voltage?

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #550 on: April 10, 2017, 12:30:10 PM »
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Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #551 on: April 10, 2017, 12:42:30 PM »
Quote
And you need to provide some evidence of your own for the outrageous claims you continue to make

I already provided them and you dismissed them without some evidence, so I've no reason/motivation to continue in discussion with you. The only way how to deal with pathoskeptics, who dismiss the evidence is to delete them - it makes the discussion way more useful for people, who did come at this forum to learn and explore new things. You should get banned already before years - you've many other forums where to go. You're systematically poisoning whole the overunity community - not just this particular forum.


Offline Acca

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #553 on: April 10, 2017, 12:53:08 PM »
It's exactly why I hate to write any more here,  as it's get sh*t on ..

Acca.

Sooo Long...

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #554 on: April 10, 2017, 12:54:14 PM »
@Acca Nope, the topic of this thread is different and it's dedicated for those, who want to understand the behavior of bifilar coil.
Your post belongs here and we already discussed it there.
If you want to have on-topic relevant discussions here,  you should also think of it, once you're posting here.

 

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