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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 386239 times)

Offline icarus

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #525 on: April 09, 2017, 07:03:58 PM »
For people interested some replications of the mini exciter.

Cheers

Nelson Rocha

Please Nelson control your PM

Thanx

Icarus

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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #526 on: April 09, 2017, 08:43:57 PM »
I think that many believe that because the voltage inverts across the coil,when the source current through the coil is interrupted,that the flow of current must also invert-change direction through the coil.

Yes,the voltage across the coil inverts,when the source current flowing through the coil is interrupted,but the current through the coil keeps flowing in the same direction-only now,the source is the collapsing magnetic field around the coil.


Brad

@Tinman,

Current reverses direction and travels in the same direction at the same time like the 60 Hz A.C. current in our overhead transmission lines; Like boarding a bus and moving toward the rear while the bus is accelerating forward. It may appear to a stationary observer that the bus passenger is standing still.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #527 on: April 09, 2017, 11:16:17 PM »
Oh really? It goes both ways at the same time? I think I know some people like that. But the major transmission of electrical power over long distances doesn't.

Quote
High-voltage direct current (HVDC) is used to transmit large amounts of power over long distances or for interconnections between asynchronous grids. When electrical energy is to be transmitted over very long distances, the power lost in AC transmission becomes appreciable and it is less expensive to use direct current instead of alternating current. For a very long transmission line, these lower losses (and reduced construction cost of a DC line) can offset the additional cost of the required converter stations at each end.
HVDC is also used for submarine cables because AC cannot be supplied over distances of more than about 30 kilometres (19 mi), due to the fact that the cables produce too much reactive power[citation needed]. In these cases special high-voltage cables for DC are used. Submarine HVDC systems are often used to connect the electricity grids of islands, for example, between Great Britain and continental Europe, between Great Britain and Ireland, between Tasmania and the Australian mainland, and between the North and South Islands of New Zealand. Submarine connections up to 600 kilometres (370 mi) in length are presently in use.[21]
HVDC links can be used to control problems in the grid with AC electricity flow. The power transmitted by an AC line increases as the phase angle between source end voltage and destination ends increases, but too large a phase angle will allow the systems at either end of the line to fall out of step. Since the power flow in a DC link is controlled independently of the phases of the AC networks at either end of the link, this phase angle limit does not exist, and a DC link is always able to transfer its full rated power. A DC link therefore stabilizes the AC grid at either end, since power flow and phase angle can then be controlled independently.
As an example, to adjust the flow of AC power on a hypothetical line between Seattle and Boston would require adjustment of the relative phase of the two regional electrical grids. This is an everyday occurrence in AC systems, but one that can become disrupted when AC system components fail and place unexpected loads on the remaining working grid system. With an HVDC line instead, such an interconnection would:
 Convert AC in Seattle into HVDC;
Use HVDC for the 3,000 miles of cross-country transmission; and
Convert the HVDC to locally synchronized AC in Boston,
 (and possibly in other cooperating cities along the transmission route). Such a system could be less prone to failure if parts of it were suddenly shut down. One example of a long DC transmission line is the Pacific DC Intertie located in the Western United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission


--And neither does AC over shorter distances.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #527 on: April 09, 2017, 11:16:17 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #528 on: April 09, 2017, 11:44:19 PM »
@evostars,

Discharging a capacitor is like decanting water from a five gallon jug; Slow starting, followed by a strong gush  at .67, tapering off to a slow flow: Charging exactly the reverse, max charge rate at .33 capacity:


Are you saying that there is a delay in a cap discharge, due to the nature of the cap itself, or due to the impedance of the discharging device?

If we were to make a home made cap with foil, wax paper and say a straight copper wire to make end connections for each plate, which would be the better method of winding it? With the plate connection wires both starting at the beginning of the rolling, or 1 wire for the bottom plate at the beginning and the top plate wire at the end of the roll, and say its a 100 turns, would there be a difference in how the cap works in these 2 cases? Would one have more induction issues than the other?

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #529 on: April 09, 2017, 11:49:10 PM »
Look at the graph he posted, in "support" of that claim.

Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of charge? Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of discharge?

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #529 on: April 09, 2017, 11:49:10 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #530 on: April 10, 2017, 12:15:16 AM »
Hi @Tinman,  I know that overunity people are all liberals by their very nature - but as a moderator you should move all off-topic comments into their corresponding threads - not to feed them with their discussion in their original thread. The question of current after interruption of coil is theoretical question of CLASSICAL physics. The overunity forums are losing their original drive and they get flooded with ignorant pathoskeptics - today most of progress actually comes from private researchers and the classical overunity forums are just watching this development in silent surprise. This is because the free hoarded community is maybe creative and inventive, but it remains undisciplined and lazy enough for implementation of its own ideas. What I'm missing here is streamlined brainstorming of experts leading to proposal and testing of particular circuits. The clueless senior twaddling is indeed mentally comfortable - but it leads nowhere.

If you want to achieve overunity, you should do many things in opposite way, than the common well behaving electricians are doing. The energy dissipating devices use transverse EM wave (light) - so you should use the longitudinal ones. Good boys electricians are using layered coils with serial windings - so you should use bifilar coils with alternating current in winding. Good electricians use planar capacitors with plates of equal area - so you have to use spherical capacitors with non-equal plates. Good boys electricians use DC current or AC current in harmonic waves - so you should use pulses. And so on...

Attached: simulation of coil breaker in Falstad's simulator



The way I understand the build up delay of self induction is that the input current through each turn induces the other turns with their 'outward expanding' magnetic fields, of which that self induction 'tries' to push against the input currents, giving us our delay to max current.  Now if the 'outward' expanding fields try to cause currents reverse of the inputs, then it is very logical that when the input is disconnected, that the magnetic field that was generated will now collapse 'inward' and will generate currents in the coil in the same direction as was the input current. If the field were expanding out, current will be in one direction, and that field collapsing inward will generate currents in the other direction.

Using the sim with the circuit that comes up as default, change the resistor values to very small and add a diode across the switch.  The cap can be made very small so that in real world circuit there isnt the big inrush to the cap from the input, which seems to be quite a bit of measured power in that instant.  Now when you turn on the switch, the cap charges, naturally due to the connections of the circuit, and the inductor starts to build its field. When you release the switch, the field collapses and charges the cap till the field is completely diminished, then the cap reverses the current through the coil and will send back most all of the input spent, back to the input.

You can slow down the sim to watch.  Like say if we did the same to a pulse motor coil, this simple quick reversal with the cap helps some in getting the input to the coil back to the dc source without complicating things to do so. Its like letting the lc go for 1 cycle, then back into the input.

Mags

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #531 on: April 10, 2017, 12:20:12 AM »
@Tinman,

Current reverses direction and travels in the same direction at the same time like the 60 Hz A.C. current in our overhead transmission lines; Like boarding a bus and moving toward the rear while the bus is accelerating forward. It may appear to a stationary observer that the bus passenger is standing still.


I dont know if that bus analogy works unless the power towers and high tension lines were on the move. ???

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #531 on: April 10, 2017, 12:20:12 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #532 on: April 10, 2017, 12:44:02 AM »

Are you saying that there is a delay in a cap discharge, due to the nature of the cap itself, or due to the impedance of the discharging device?

If we were to make a home made cap with foil, wax paper and say a straight copper wire to make end connections for each plate, which would be the better method of winding it? With the plate connection wires both starting at the beginning of the rolling, or 1 wire for the bottom plate at the beginning and the top plate wire at the end of the roll, and say its a 100 turns, would there be a difference in how the cap works in these 2 cases? Would one have more induction issues than the other?

Mags


@Mags,


I don't want to compound the problem too much. I explained that my intention was to imply that the curves are non chiral and symmetrical. I also explained that there's an RC formula for the time that involves a resistor. Now, I don't want to be accused of trying to weasel out of a pickle, but if the capacitor is discharged through a high value resistor, wouldn't it take some additional time for the resistor to begin to pass the current? It would depend on which side of the resistor you measured the discharge from right?

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #533 on: April 10, 2017, 01:09:57 AM »
Look at the graph he posted, in "support" of that claim.

Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of charge? Where, on that graph, is the maximum rate of discharge?


@Tinselkoala,


The maximum discharge is between 100% and 63% of the charge, the maximum charge level is between 0% and 37%, then it begins too slow down to 63% where the time frame elongates again to match the 37% level of the discharge. Everyone knows it takes longer to charge a capacitor after it's 63% full then at the beginning and conversely, it takes longer to discharge the remaining 37% as it empties out. We have an inverse but symmetrical curve. Got it?

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #533 on: April 10, 2017, 01:09:57 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #534 on: April 10, 2017, 01:21:25 AM »
@Tinselkola,


You stated that a vertical discharge curve was impossible. What about Tesla's "Spark Gap Generator" discharge?

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #535 on: April 10, 2017, 01:49:50 AM »
@Tinselkoala,


Times up! The spark discharge is at the speed of light, and the graph line is on the perpendicular. Your turn to admit your wrong!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #535 on: April 10, 2017, 01:49:50 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #536 on: April 10, 2017, 02:33:22 AM »

@Mags,


I don't want to compound the problem too much. I explained that my intention was to imply that the curves are non chiral and symmetrical. I also explained that there's an RC formula for the time that involves a resistor. Now, I don't want to be accused of trying to weasel out of a pickle, but if the capacitor is discharged through a high value resistor, wouldn't it take some additional time for the resistor to begin to pass the current? It would depend on which side of the resistor you measured the discharge from right?


If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #537 on: April 10, 2017, 02:36:06 AM »

If the resistor were absent of induction, the discharge from the cap through the resistor would begin delivering max current instantly, max current determined by V/R. The resistance determines the time of complete discharge, more resistance, longer time to 0V. If we shrink from left to right the time chart of the discharge through a very high resistance compared to the short time it would take through a very low resistance, the curve should look the same, with the bulk of the charge diminished more quickly closer to the beginning of the discharge and the rate of discharge gets smaller the closer the cap reaches 0v.

If there is some sort of delay, what is causing the delay you express?

Mags

@Mags,

Eddy hysteresis. Worse in the bottle neck! I'm talking about the water flow through the bottle neck there, not the capacitor discharge. All comparisons are not exactly the same as the real thing.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #538 on: April 10, 2017, 03:19:11 AM »

@Tinselkoala,


The maximum discharge is between 100% and 63% of the charge, the maximum charge level is between 0% and 37%, then it begins too slow down to 63% where the time frame elongates again to match the 37% level of the discharge. Everyone knows it takes longer to charge a capacitor after it's 63% full then at the beginning and conversely, it takes longer to discharge the remaining 37% as it empties out. We have an inverse but symmetrical curve. Got it?

Still trying to weasel out of your pickle, I see. What does the word "RATE" mean to you? How about "ASYMPTOTE"?

Clearly, the maximum charge "LEVEL" is also right at the beginning of the discharge, and the minimum charge "LEVEL" is at the very end.

GOT IT?

Yes, you have inverse and symmetrical curves. And these curves clearly show that the maximum charge RATE and the minimum charge LEVEL occur at the beginning of the charge, and the maximum discharge RATE and the maximum charge LEVEL occur at the beginning of the discharge. Not at the 33 or 67 percent charge levels.

But need I remind you once again what you actually said in your original claim?


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #539 on: April 10, 2017, 03:24:32 AM »
@Tinselkoala,


Times up! The spark discharge is at the speed of light, and the graph line is on the perpendicular. Your turn to admit your wrong!

Nope. The spark discharge is not "zero resistance" nor is it at the speed of light, the speed of light is not infinite, and a perpendicular or rather vertical line on any quantity-time graph means that the quantity changes _instantly_, that is with zero time passing. And this does not occur in any real system, especially not capacitor discharge.

And it's "you're" not "your", as in "You're wrong yet again synchro." 

 

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