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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 372623 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #345 on: April 04, 2017, 07:10:18 AM »
So, you go back and apply the 500 Hz AC torque signal to the flywheel and observe the flywheel at its self-resonant frequency.  There is no doubt about the resonant rise in the response of the flywheel because you can hear it ringing so loud.

So, is this "resonant rise" something to get excited about?  Is this higher amplitude resonant response from the flywheel a possible key to a mechanical over unity device?

Not really, because after five minutes at resonance the flywheel starts to get really hot.  You quickly realize that all of the shaft power that is going into the flywheel is turning into an incredibly loud ringing sound and the flywheel itself is starting to heat up.  All of the rotational shaft power you are putting into the flywheel is becoming sound and heat.  Or we can call that waste sound and waste heat.

So exciting a flywheel at its self-resonant frequency is essentially exactly the same as exciting a coil at its self-resonant frequency.  In both cases all of the increased supplied power to the resonant system becomes increased waste heat.

If you excite the flywheel at its self-resonant frequency with a high enough peak-to-peak AC torque signal, the flywheel will eventually heat up to the point it starts to get red hot.

Now, don't forget an ideal spring stores energy returns energy, it is not supposed to generate heat.  But the spring inside the flywheel is not ideal, it has hysteresis and any energy that it does not return is converted into heat.  In other words, there is effectively friction inside the resonating flywheel creating heat.

So the energy being burned off in the resonating flywheel due to friction is like the energy being burned off in the resonating coil due to wire resistance.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Grumage

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #346 on: April 04, 2017, 12:48:57 PM »
Dear MileHigh.

Your original post had me thinking off and on, having had over 40 years experience with the Internal Combustion Engine.

I would never, even with several lifetimes have envisaged a flywheel that oscillated at 500 HZ!

Most practical people recognise that a flywheel stores rotational energy to carry the ICE through its dead cycles. On early electric generation engines the flywheel was made heavier to reduce the flicker of the lights.

Perhaps my post echoes the reason for " no takers " ?

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #347 on: April 04, 2017, 01:35:47 PM »
Graham:

I think that you are missing the point.  For starters the example has no relationship with any flywheel that might be used in an internal combustion engine.  I described a thin disk one meter in diameter.  I described it like this so the thinness and reduced material in the disk would be more amenable to being deformed when torque was applied at the center of the disk.  The deformation is the spring in action.

If the disk is proportioned with a larger width, then the stiffness of the torque spring inside the disk goes way way up and the self-resonant frequency of the flywheel quickly goes up past 20 KHz and becomes inaudible.  Likewise, the amplitude of the  self-resonant oscillations would be so low as to be unobservable with the naked eye.

The whole point of the exercise was to "tune down" the self-resonant frequency to make it audible and observable.  The described dimensions of the hypothetical flywheel and the self-resonant frequency are all arbitrary and for illustrative purposes only.

The point of the exercise is to illustrate how a self-resonating flywheel is a near-perfect analogy for a self-resonating coil.

If you are working in a physics lab as a college freshman you might have a near-frictionless linear air track and you will will do the basic tests with a spring.  The spring they give you to test and measure for the spring constant "k" is like a miniature slinky that is about half a meter long in its relaxed state.  It is a very weak spring and you hang weights on it to measure how far it stretches to determine the spring constant.  The spring that you test serves no useful purpose in the real world that I am aware of, it's only used in physics labs.  However, it still is a spring and when you analyze that very weak spring you end up understanding how springs work in general.  Exactly the same principles are at play with my hypothetical example.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #347 on: April 04, 2017, 01:35:47 PM »
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Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #348 on: April 04, 2017, 03:08:11 PM »
Quote
how a self-resonating flywheel is a near-perfect analogy for a self-resonating coil

Why, what this analogy explains/predict? BTW Does self-resonating flywheel exist?

Offline Grumage

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #349 on: April 04, 2017, 06:16:50 PM »
Graham:

I think that you are missing the point.

MileHigh

Dear MileHigh.

On the contrary, I don't think there was a point to be missed.

Your flywheel ceased to be a " Flywheel " the moment it stopped rotating. IMO your analogy is more akin to a mechanical oscillator.

From my perspective any flywheel that's rotating at a fixed speed ( doesn't matter what speed ) is resonant. My reasoning ? The flywheel, once up to speed requires far less energy than it took to get there.

Kind regards,  Graham.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #349 on: April 04, 2017, 06:16:50 PM »
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Offline web000x

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #350 on: April 04, 2017, 06:27:15 PM »
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite


Dave

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #351 on: April 04, 2017, 08:15:17 PM »
Why, what this analogy explains/predict? BTW Does self-resonating flywheel exist?

It's simply meant to give you insight into a self-resonating coil.  What is resonance?  I can tell you from experience that many people use the term without even knowing what it means.  Resonance is energy cycling back and forth between two complimentary energy storage mechanisms.  In a coil it is the inductance and the self-capacitance when the coil is self-resonating.  In a flywheel it is the moment of inertia and the spring associated with the deformation of the metal when the flywheel is self-resonating.  All flywheels can self-resonate and in real life that is almost always a condition that is to be avoided.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #351 on: April 04, 2017, 08:15:17 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #352 on: April 04, 2017, 08:27:37 PM »
Dear MileHigh.

On the contrary, I don't think there was a point to be missed.

Your flywheel ceased to be a " Flywheel " the moment it stopped rotating. IMO your analogy is more akin to a mechanical oscillator.

From my perspective any flywheel that's rotating at a fixed speed ( doesn't matter what speed ) is resonant. My reasoning ? The flywheel, once up to speed requires far less energy than it took to get there.

Kind regards,  Graham.

Sorry, but the analogy was stated specifically to compare a self-resonating coil with a self-resonating flywheel.  A coil is not really fulfilling the function of a coil when no current is passing through it and instead it is simply self-resonating.  Likewise a flywheel is not really fulfilling the function of a flywheel when it is not spinning and instead it is simply self-resonating.  However, both cases deserve to be studied and there is information to be gleamed from understanding them.

The study is much more applicable to mechanical flywheels.  Take the case where a gear is spinning and a clutch engages to effectively knock the gear up to a higher RPM with a strong impulse.  The gear will self-resonate momentarily from the strong impulse that knocks it up to a higher RPM while it is still spinning.  Excessive vibrations from these impulses could reduce the life of the gear from metal fatigue.

Nope, a spinning flywheel is not resonating and doesn't meet the definition of resonance.  Same thing when you have DC current flowing through a coil, there is no resonance.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #353 on: April 04, 2017, 08:52:13 PM »
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:

Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite

Dave

This discussion is not about the angular momentum of a gyroscope and how it responds when you try to change the orientation.  This discussion is about the energy dynamics of a self-resonating coil and the equivalent self-resonating flywheel.  The stuff about the angular momentum is a completely different discussion.

Note again that you don't even have to consider the magnetic field and internal electric field of the self-resonating coil.  The process of vector addition for the magnetic field has been explained multiple times.  The vector addition concepts also apply to the electric field.  For a simple example of a self-resonating coil, or a coil with DC or AC current flowing through it, there is nothing special about the energy stored in the magnetic field.  I can see from what Evostars is reading that there is what appears to be a lots of pseudoscience mysticism associated with coils and the magnetic fields associated with coils.  IMO it's just pulp to capture eyeballs and sell books, downloads, and DVDs and make a living for yourself.

Yes we have evolved from stars. We are stardust, and we all want a nice lush green garden to get back to.

The same people also said this:

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good-bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Yes we can all dream.  But we also have a responsibility to teach ourselves and teach others the real truth so that we can go out and make the world a better place.  It's a code of honour and responsibility and respect for ourselves and for others in the world.  In other words, learn and respect the truth and reject the lies and the crap that we have to deal with every day.  You need to amass enough knowledge to be able to discern between the truth and the junk.  It's not easy, but one would hope that you would want to try.

MileHigh

CNN caught lying red-handed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihr7z9P_xaQ

CNN caught in a double-lie:  She says that "(CNN) inadvertently and wrongly characterized."  There was nothing inadvertent about it.  They intentionally edited a clip to completely change the message that someone was saying.  It is absolutely obscene that they did that.  And the only reason they apologized for their lying is because other ordinary people were recording the same event on their cellphones and posted the truth on YouTube.  Take the Red Pill.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #353 on: April 04, 2017, 08:52:13 PM »
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Offline NRamaswami

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #354 on: April 04, 2017, 10:35:44 PM »
Dear Mile High

I requested you to explain your theory and if you have a working circuit I again request you to post it. I have received no response and you have moved to seelf resonating flywheel.

Please I again request you to respond.

Regards

Ramaswami



Sure I would be happy to explain this to you again.  Typically high-frequency voltage travels down the single wire.  However, with no current flow you cannot transfer any AC power into the load.  So the question is how do you get current to flow when there is no apparent current loop in the circuit?  As we know, for current to flow, there must be a loop.

We also know that there exists so-called "stray" (a.k.a. parasitic) capacitance everywhere.  A capacitor is just two conducting plates separated by a distance.  Let's look at a trivial example.  Suppose you are outside in your back yard.  Let's say there is an insulating plastic lawn chair that you are sitting in and your feet are not touching the ground.  We know that the ground is conductive and there is always some moisture in the ground that helps it become more conductive.  We also know the human body is basically salty water, and so the human body is conductive.

Therefore, when you sit on an insulating plastic chair in your back yard with your feet not touching the ground we can say that there is a measurable capacitance between your body and the ground.  It may be very small, perhaps 100 pF, but it is there and it is measurable.  In reality, there is stray or parasitic capacitance everywhere.

It is this stray capacitance that allows AC current to conduct in a current loop that allows for so-called "single wire power transmission."

Here is a typical circuit current loop:

<earth ground> ---> <stray capacitor #1> ---> <high frequency AC signal generator> ---> <load> ---> <stray capacitor #2> ---> <back to earth ground>

When you do a "single wire power transmission" experiment there are typically two "invisible" stray capacitors that allow AC current to flow.  Therefore the load sees both voltage and current and therefore AC power gets transferred into the load.  Small neon lights and LEDs require very little power to light up and that's why you often see them lit in experiments like this.

This is a fairly straightforward concept that should be understood by people interested in experimenting with electronics.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #355 on: April 04, 2017, 11:43:36 PM »
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite


Dave

Thanks Dave, very really good video . Is not like i ear sometimes some people say that learn in youtube only make persons dumb "DumbTube" . :)

Thanks


Nelson Rocha

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #355 on: April 04, 2017, 11:43:36 PM »
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Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #356 on: April 05, 2017, 10:54:48 AM »
I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares:


Gyroscopic Primer by Prof Eric Laithwaite


Dave
Thanks, gread vid. watched it last night.  interesting what a gyroscope does with weight.
but i cant see an anology with a oscilating bifilar coil.  its not alternating, it looks more like Dc. constant velocity (and slowing down).
still the current is pulsed through a spiral coil inward or outward.

Online ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #357 on: April 05, 2017, 11:59:04 AM »
Well ,
I received this from Gary Vesperman ,an Old Timer in the FE world ,Apparently there is a "TF"conference in Moscow
and Peng Gao's work and others are being discussed .
Snip
Peng Gao's torsion field paper

 paper is in the following link:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0130v1.pdf

Abstract—Scalar wave was found and used at first by Nikola
Tesla in his wireless energy transmission experiment. Prof.K.Meyl
extended the Maxwell equation and found the lost scalar wave
part. The scalar wave theory proposed by Prof.K.Meyl indicates
that the torsion field is the nature of scalar wave. This work
attempts to detect the torsion field nature of scalar wave generated
by the dual Tesla coil system, using the torsion balance consisting
of a wooden frame. The result is positive and two kinds of torsion
field including left-handed and right-handed are detected in dual
Tesla coil system.

snip
II. DESCRIPTION OF DEVICES AND METHODOLOGY
In this work, the Phase-Conjugate-Resonator consists of two
standard pancake Tesla coils
, two wooden frames in different
size, and some auxiliary objects were used. In this section,
it will be discussed in three parts: the Phase-Conjugate-
Resonator, the methodology and the full configuration of hardware.
-----------------------------------------

Gary is a great fellow and a champion of the hazards of wireless Wifi in the western united states [many worldwide studies showing this newer stronger Wifi and its dangers to Children and others.

respectfully
Chet K




Offline web000x

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #358 on: April 05, 2017, 01:16:09 PM »
Thanks, gread vid. watched it last night.  interesting what a gyroscope does with weight.
but i cant see an anology with a oscilating bifilar coil.  its not alternating, it looks more like Dc. constant velocity (and slowing down).
still the current is pulsed through a spiral coil inward or outward.


I am not 100% sure of the correlations.  But there is something about gyroscopes having an orthogonal relationship that reminds me of the workings of electricity.  My mind is open..


Dave


PS. If Newman was able to build self motoring devices from applying gyroscopic concepts to his machines, the thought must not be dismissed.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #359 on: April 05, 2017, 02:11:29 PM »
Dear Mile High

I requested you to explain your theory and if you have a working circuit I again request you to post it. I have received no response and you have moved to seelf resonating flywheel.

Please I again request you to respond.

Regards

Ramaswami

The theory was pretty much explained.  There are hundreds of YouTube clips that show LEDs and neons being lit from "one wire."  There are many circuits that generate high-frequency high-voltage AC.  You can Google search and YouTube search on this.

 

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