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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 377304 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #270 on: March 31, 2017, 06:01:29 AM »
(snip)

You have to understand the mental stress involved in looking at a scope capture and having to envision and reconstruct what you think the circuit might be in your head.  Even a simple circuit can be stressful with multiple unknowns.
 
(snip)


Here you go, MH, observe and relax.    ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #271 on: March 31, 2017, 06:10:26 AM »
Here you go, MH, observe and relax.    ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0

You have heard of xes on a phone?  That's the closest thing I have seen to xes on a scope!

Meanwhile, the Fifth Column does other dirty things on a phone!

Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #272 on: March 31, 2017, 09:10:33 AM »
 the tiny little sine ringing after the pulse,  is the resonant frequency of the bifilar pancake coil.
if pulsed at the frequencyof that ringing the voltage rises, it becomes a continuous sine.
with a lot more energy than a few micro joules.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #272 on: March 31, 2017, 09:10:33 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #273 on: March 31, 2017, 11:03:13 AM »
the tiny little sine ringing after the pulse,  is the resonant frequency of the bifilar pancake coil.
if pulsed at the frequencyof that ringing the voltage rises, it becomes a continuous sine.
with a lot more energy than a few micro joules.

That's great that you can observe a ring-down with a single pulse from the IGBT.  That's what's known as the "impulse response" from the coil and and that tells you nearly everything you need to know about the coil.  Yes you are going to get a resonant rise in the response from the coil if you hit it with a series of impulses at the self-resonant frequency of the coil, but that's not really giving you any new information.

My recommendation would be to then take your signal generator and "tickle" the coil at the self resonant frequency to find out if the pancake coil is resonating as a series or as a parallel LC resonator.  You absolutely don't need to drive the coil with the 50-ohm output from the signal generator.  I would suggest putting a 200-ohm resistor in series with the signal from the generator, and then try a 500-ohm resistor in series.  Naturally the signal generator has to be set on a sine wave.

You use the 200-ohm resistor (or the 500-ohm resistor) as a current viewing resistor.  So will there be a lot of current flowing through the signal feed to the coil at resonance or will there be almost no current flowing through the signal feed to the coil at resonance?  That is the big question of the hour.

So, if you really wanted to look at the voltage across the in-line resistor then one option is either your signal generator needs to be isolated from the mains or your scope needs to be isolated from the mains.  If you don't have a mains isolation transformer there are many other ways around that issue.  Any thoughts?  For example, who says that you have to isolate the signal generator itself?  Why not just isolate the signal from the signal generator itself and then the 200-ohm resistor and the coil itself will be isolated.

If you do the test and you see current flowing through the signal line at resonance then you should see almost no voltage across the coil itself.  Or if you see almost no current flowing through the signal line you should see a voltage across the coil itself that is the same as the signal generator voltage.  When you first do the test you only want to look at the voltage across the 200-ohm resistor.  You do not want to put a scope probe across the coil itself because that is disturbing the coil.

If you can figure out your isolation issues then the logical test to do is a full frequency sweep to see what's going on.  You may find different resonant modes at different frequencies.  If your setup is working smoothly, you might want to do a sweep with a 1K-ohm series resistor.

This is all an interesting investigation and could be a great example for other bifilar pancake coil enthusiasts.  I don't know if you have the the experience and the bench skills to do all of this.

A disclaimer is that I am just applying my knowledge from way back when and I have never done a test like this.  Somebody else may correct me or suggest something completely different.

Finally, here is what you don't want to hear because of all of the musings that you have been reading from the various players in the free energy cottage industry that have convinced you that "there is another way" and that you know better after reading all of that stuff.  What you don't want to hear is that the magnetic field generated by your series bifilar pancake coil just stores electrical energy in the 3D volume around the coil by stressing the space with a subtended magnetic field.  There is a big "ho hum" from a lot of people about that fact.  If you notice, essentially all of my comments have ignored the magnetic field and I turn slightly green when you talk about the "spirals" and the "vorticies."  The simple fact is that you can analyze the coil without even thinking about the magnetic field at all assuming there are no magnetic field coupling effects in the testing.

So, if we suppose that you find what the resonant mode for the coil is at the observed self-resonant frequency from your impulse testing, and then you do the full frequency sweep to look for any other resonant modes, then where do you go from there?  Or is it a big secret?

MileHigh

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #274 on: March 31, 2017, 11:33:18 AM »
Quote
No "antigravity" device has ever been shown to be real, and I've tested quite a few of them myself
And what? I tested the existence of electrons multiple-times - and I never detected any with my devices. This is supposed to serve as an argument?

List of experimental EMDrive results

Quote
You are making the claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.
Prove that overunity and antigravity doesn't exist. It's your claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #274 on: March 31, 2017, 11:33:18 AM »
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Offline Searcher1o1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #275 on: March 31, 2017, 02:12:31 PM »
Why would the circuit be off topic, you need a circuit to run your bifilar coil.
Expand the circuit, stage it up add phases.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #276 on: March 31, 2017, 02:33:53 PM »
And what? I tested the existence of electrons multiple-times - and I never detected any with my devices. This is supposed to serve as an argument?


You continue to demonstrate your ignorance and  incompetence. When will you tire of this? You are communicating with me on a device that DEPENDS on the existence of electrons for its operation and even for the very fabrication of its component parts. And without you posting the details of your "devices" and your "tests" it is of course impossible to evaluate your claims except to point out that they are contrary to hundreds of years of experimentation and engineering by thousands of real scientists and engineers. Frankly I doubt that you have any competence in these matters. Feel free to PROVE ME WRONG by showing your work.

Have you ever heard of the Electron Microscope? How about Electron Spin Resonance Spectroscopy? Electron Beam Lithography? Electron Beam Welding? How about Cathode Ray Tubes ffs? If you do not think electrons exist you have a big hill to climb, explaining how these devices and many others "actually" work according to your conjectures (which do not even rise to the level of "theory".)

Quote

List of experimental EMDrive results
Prove that overunity and antigravity doesn't exist. It's your claim, it is up to YOU to prove it.


And now you are demonstrating that you will sacrifice logical and critical thinking in order to continue to troll me. No, it is the claimants who claim things contrary to known physics, like yourself, who have the burden of proof, and at some level you actually do know this. But it is more important for you to try to put me down, so you sacrifice your own personal integrity to do so. WITHOUT EVER PROVIDING EVIDENCE of your own!

By the way, there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results. In addition, as the researchers like Sonny White and Paul March refine their experiments and gain expertise in performing them, the magnitude of "positive" results continues to get smaller and smaller. Of course you will choose to ignore results that do not conform to your conjectures and you will ignore the implications of results that tend to vanish into the noise floor as experimental technique is refined.

You've been soundly refuted already and you have nothing to say about that, except to try to weasel out of what your original claim actually was. Maybe you would be happier posting your nonsense at Energetic Forum, where "trolls", that is, critical thinkers and experimenters like me, are much more strongly discouraged than we are here.

After all, there have been dozens of "free energy" devices built and talked about there. My favorite one is the "Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machine" of UFOPolitics -- which produces so much free energy that he is running his home and shop on it. No... wait.... that's wrong, he isn't, he's still connected to his local grid and is still paying for his juice. After hundreds of pages of thread and after suckering dozens of people into "replicating" his machines, he has gone on to other things and nobody, but nobody, has ever made a single excess Joule of energy from their efforts. But they have wasted untold hours, untold dollars and untold energy trying. Maybe you could help them out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #276 on: March 31, 2017, 02:33:53 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #277 on: March 31, 2017, 02:40:12 PM »
Why would the circuit be off topic, you need a circuit to run your bifilar coil.
Expand the circuit, stage it up add phases.

Do you believe that using a flat Tesla Bifilar wound coil would produce a different result? Do you think my demonstration is somehow in error? Go ahead and demonstrate it yourself then. 

Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #278 on: March 31, 2017, 02:45:33 PM »
Zephir
thank you for the very nice page

http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results

I honestly believe you have missed the point here ,I don't believe for one instant that fellows posting here
ALL fellows ...don't believe in the potential of new sources of energy harvesting


if someone walked in the door tomorrow still smoking and holding a fried/burnt umbrella ,with a Claim
" I finally figured it out ...I can call the lightning at will. 24/7 anywhere on earth from a clear blue sky "

that would be plausible ...if he started to levitate while he summoned exotic static charges ?
also plausible...

here a man should run towards scrutiny when he has a claim, not shun it.

unfortunately it seems when fellows make discoveries they run to lawyers ...and the Gov't mouse traps [patent office]

a patent ??
never hand a man a stick to beat you with




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #278 on: March 31, 2017, 02:45:33 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #279 on: March 31, 2017, 02:56:19 PM »
Glendower:
 I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur:
 Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?
Glendower:
 Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command
 The devil
Hotspur:
 And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil—
 By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

 William Shakespeare, Henry The Fourth, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #280 on: March 31, 2017, 02:59:38 PM »
Did you miss this, Ramset?

Quote
By the way, there are far more negative and null results from the EMdrive experimentation than there are positive results. In addition, as the researchers like Sonny White and Paul March refine their experiments and gain expertise in performing them, the magnitude of "positive" results continues to get smaller and smaller. Of course you will choose to ignore results that do not conform to your conjectures and you will ignore the implications of results that tend to vanish into the noise floor as experimental technique is refined.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #280 on: March 31, 2017, 02:59:38 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #281 on: March 31, 2017, 03:06:03 PM »
Tinsel
every journey starts with a step ,surely the pioneers in all these fields are looking under every stone .

You mentioned electron beam microscopes ...few years back we had a project where we were looking to buy one
seemed every scope on the planet was up for sale on EBay [tons in south Korea]
they had all become obsolete ...

turns out the guys who can see the most [tiniest] have the biggest edge ,and the guys who can't should stay home until they can.

the ever smaller world we work in ..."nano" is going to rewrite the books.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #282 on: March 31, 2017, 03:20:18 PM »
Tinsel
every journey starts with a step ,surely the pioneers in all these fields are looking under every stone .

You mentioned electron beam microscopes ...few years back we had a project where we were looking to buy one
seemed every scope on the planet was up for sale on EBay [tons in south Korea]
they had all become obsolete ...

turns out the guys who can see the most [tiniest] have the biggest edge ,and the guys who can't should stay home until they can.

the ever smaller world we work in ..."nano" is going to rewrite the books.

Yes, I can believe that. At the place where I used to work-- you know where-- we had not one but TWO electron microscopes, one ancient SEM and one more modern TEM, and I learned how to operate both of them. The TEM, worth about 600,000 dollars on the surplus market, was actually _given_ to the lab by its former owner, a researcher at one of the national research universities there. When the researcher went on to other things, the University needed the space and so gave the TEM to whomever could come and extract it from the basement room and cart it away. So we did. And reassembled it in our lab and got it working again. Actually the TEM itself was installed in one room and its giant power supply, vacuum pumps and air compressors (for pneumatic valves) were installed in the next room, with cabling and hoses run through the walls. It is still in use today. I think the SEM is mostly used for electron beam spectroscopy these days to confirm the composition of exotic ceramics.

The ones you saw on the surplus market were of course replaced with more modern, more capable Electron Microscope instruments at their former homes.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #283 on: March 31, 2017, 03:29:15 PM »
Wow, a mysterious brown envelope appeared at my door this morning with no markings on it at all.  I am attaching a photo of the contents of the envelope here.

Will a large-signal measurement of the inductance of a bifilar pancake coil be different from a small-signal measurement of the inductance of a bifilar pancake coil?

I bet you they would be different!

EDIT:  I had to edit everything and change "capacitance" to "inductance."  It must be the the psychic energy beams from Planet Zanti that were trying to throw me off the trail!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #284 on: March 31, 2017, 06:53:50 PM »
Your opinion has been noted and added to my file 13.

Yeah, sure.  Your trip whenever you talk about Tesla or some circuit is to scold people about some supposed amazing profound significance that they have to go into deep deep contemplation to *truly* understand.  "Tesla laid out the bread crumbs for you, you just have to follow them and discover for yourself what the significance *really* is."  I have read that one too many times from you.  That's why I gave you that extended little treatise.  Your pitch is a variation on the masochist scolding that you hear from all sorts of free energy enthusiasts about clips of supposed free energy circuits that you see on YouTube.  They always say, "The inventor is NOT supposed to share his work with you!  You are supposed to take still frames from his clip and talk about them and try to reverse-engineer what you see for the next nine months!  Don't you know it's supposed to be that way?"

Going back to the "special current," things aren't always so deep and so profound that you need to sit like Buddha for 40 days and contemplate your scope traces.  So there is indeed nothing of note that is out of the ordinary with the term "special" with respect to the currents in the bifilar pancake coil.  There is no "deeper level of understanding" that can only be gained though deep thought.  If you want to go into contemplation about the word "special" for the next two years, that's your choice.

So you shouldn't throw what I said in the trash bin.  TK said the geometry for the pancake coil helps with avoiding high-voltage arcing when playing with Tesla coils.  But who really needs a Tesla coil?  At this point in time they are novelty items, there is a clip on YouTube where two Tesla coils play Sweet Home Alabama with stereo modulated high-voltage lightning bolts.  It's a big hit at bar mitzvahs.

That Tesla patent for the bifilar pancake coil has its own cult of personality.  It attracts all sorts of attention and thousands of amateur experimenters make pancake coils and play with them.  There is no elusive pot of gold.  It's just a coil.

 

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