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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 376652 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #210 on: March 29, 2017, 02:52:50 PM »
One thing is for sure-->those who continually dismiss the PM and water as an endless power source,will be the very same people that will go no further than they are now.

One has to have a good laugh,when you hear from others,that the PM can do no useful work--and yet they are the very same people that do not yet understand what the magnetic force actually is  ::)

There is a big difference in knowing what we can and cannot do with a magnetic field,and actually knowing what it is.
Only when you know what the magnetic force is,will you know what it can do--until then,it's just some fumbling around,and using what we know so far.

Anyway,back to my washing machine motors for me.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #211 on: March 29, 2017, 03:31:02 PM »
MH, Tk, Zephir and all,

First let me say that I appreciate the constructive and well meaning criticism that you offer as help to those such as myself.  My goal is to simply continue to seek answers for those seeming anomalies which might provide a self generating device.  My post of the MEI scope pix was one such example.  Do I plan to attempt to build a looped version to really prove or disprove the concept, absolutely.

Also, I have the highest regard for the engineers at Tektronix.  I have worked directly with them regarding measurement issues with my MDO3034 and they have been most cooperative.  The newest series of their scopes are quite capable of reasonably accurate measurements if used properly, but improvements could be made especially when measuring in circuits with COP~>1.

In the recent past I made a promise to myself that I would no longer post to any forum unless I could demonstrate a self runner of some type.  All else is futile so I will attempt to return to that position.

pm

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #212 on: March 29, 2017, 04:52:15 PM »
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction


I am going to assume that Tesla had a strong intuitive sense and understanding of what he was observing and analyzing and applying, but he did not have the circuit analysis theory or applied mathematical background to model these systems.

The actual analysis and modeling has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance

"Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2

"The parallel LC circuit connected in series with a load will act as band-stop filter having infinite impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit. The parallel LC circuit connected in parallel with a load will act as band-pass filter."

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #212 on: March 29, 2017, 04:52:15 PM »
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Offline Jeg

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #213 on: March 29, 2017, 06:10:29 PM »
The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

Hi Caroll and everyone. Hi T.K. ;)

Just to share my point of view on this reversal never ending story.

We feed some dc current across an inductor to ground (-) through a switch. For example a low side mosfet switch. When this current flows, we have a certain magnetic polarity across the coil. During this time, inductor 'pushes' as to oppose to this current flow, developing a voltage polarity opposite to that of the source. When switch opens and current stops flowing, in fact there is a violent change in the ''magnetic moment''. Where North was before, now there is a sudden movement to zero. Inductor sees this change and develops instantly a counter electromotive force opposite to the one that had before when it was pushing against battery. This new coil's voltage polarity, which now is a HV spike, tries to maintain the same current direction as when current was moving. But now it is just opposes again to the sudden zeroing of current and consequently the rapid change in flux. 

The best proof for the described action, is to ''see'' straight across a secondary with your oscilloscope probes. You will see that cemf changes direction between charging and discharging actions of the primary.

So my answer to the question about if current changes direction or no: There is not any conduction current when switch opens! Just the reaction of the opposing in nature coil, which is pure voltage.
The argument is based on a wrong base.       

Regards   


Offline Acca

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #214 on: March 29, 2017, 06:25:41 PM »
Mr.Nelson Rocha I have a lot respect to you as you have posted in your recent long post.


It has to be best written opinion on Over-Unity here. 


This is not a place to "learn " as the resident trolls will destroy you here for being uneducated ...


They simply are will not allow any one any help or even suggest that..


They will  dig a hole for some one to fall in and trap him in that with no way out ..


Again a fantastic post.. Kudos to you and that you have the passion to to that !!!


Acca...




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #214 on: March 29, 2017, 06:25:41 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #215 on: March 29, 2017, 06:39:01 PM »
So my answer to the question about if current changes direction or no: There is not any conduction current when switch opens! Just the reaction of the opposing in nature coil, which is pure voltage.
The argument is based on a wrong base.       

Jeg, this important topic is all fully documented in the thread that Carroll linked to, and I suggest that you read it.

You are quoting one of the biggest misconceptions about coils that goes all the way back to the late John Bedini. It's the false idea that when the switch opens the coil produces "pure voltage" and no current.

If there was one amp of current flowing through the coil before the switch opens, then just after the instant the switch opens there is still one amp of current flowing through the coil.  However, because the switch is open, the current flow through the coil decreases rapidly to zero.

Here is the symmetry:

When you short-circuit a capacitor, the capacitor outputs voltage that decreases rapidly to zero and there is a strong pulse of current that also decreases rapidly to zero.

When you open-circuit an inductor, the inductor outputs current that decreases rapidly to zero and there is a strong pulse of voltage that also decreases rapidly to zero.

More symmetry:

A coil is absolutely NOT something that produces "pure voltage and no current."  What it really produces is is "pure current and the voltage is dependent on the load."

A capacitor is absolutely NOT something that produces "pure current and no voltage."  What it really produces is is "pure voltage and the current is dependent on the load."

It is very important that you understand this so that when you work on your bench you have a better understanding of what is taking place.

Even the tiniest coil when connected through a switch will ionize the air and create a conductive plasma when the switch opens.  This is because a coil acts like a current source.  If you do not know what a current source is then please research this important topic.

MileHigh

Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #216 on: March 29, 2017, 06:49:28 PM »
Acca

I totally disagree with your post.  The only reason someone can't learn on this forum is because they refuse to learn.  I have posted several links in this thread for those that are willing to learn.  Here is only one of them.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-current-direction-change-when-an-inductor-discharges

After I posted it apparently no one took the time to even look at it.  It was obvious they didn't because of their inane comments.  I also posted this link to a discussion thread that had lots of info about the myth of reversing current when a coil discharges.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

After posting that I was told there was no reason to read it.  We can't help people learn if they refuse to even look at what we are trying to show them.  It appears you would rather let them continue in their confusion rather than have those of us that know better actually try to help them.  You are putting down the very people that are doing exactly what you claim they are not doing.

Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #216 on: March 29, 2017, 06:49:28 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #217 on: March 29, 2017, 07:39:05 PM »
Good Nelson, you are all butt hurt for being told that your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are unacceptable.  It doesn't feel good to be labeled the "bad guy," does it?  It upset you to the point that you had to do the "big thread shakedown."

Just check your behavior and simply act like a normal person.

I'm hurt ? ohh really  ? You upset me ? not so sure .. but i don't have your time to answer you, ever time you post , myself don't live without work :)  .

Bad guy me ?
I did not know about that my facet , and i really wonder how bad i could be in your mouth and in your words you are hilarious .

You should really check you behavior , because you act like a a kid that someone steal their toy and go call the papa .
Don't be ridiculous , you simple don't accept that someone disagree from you but i will tell you again :

I'm owner of myself Thoughts , and is not you or anyone that influence me just to please, or be part of the "elite" of Illuminated group .
I have the right of disagree, when I do not agree with some affirmation ,  and myself are free to  learn too , with other ideas or new concepts that you could not agree or even know or understand  .So simple like that .

I just say, like someone could read in the posts i write , that pancake coil have special properties and that to me is irrefutable, under what i see in practical work and others already saw , something that you don't know but  only theorize .

But even that why you struggling to convince me ? No one impose nothing to you , in fact i repeat lot of times that even disagree i respect your opinion , and i did not concentrate so much energy to convince you from the opposite Well no sir ?

 To you even Nikola Tesla seems that not have the "mathematical background"  to model their own systems . That is you worst shot  , that i could hear and only could be like a bad joke , or simple nonsense .  is my sincerely opinion .

Do not bother to continue to convince me with your copy past, and with your ideas. If I were looking for what you have make copy past, i am able to do it in the most diverse sites where you are going to get the information, and in many others.
Simple like that.

Nothing more to add .

Have a nice day , and enjoy

Nelson Rocha
 
 
   

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #218 on: March 29, 2017, 07:53:33 PM »
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction


Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree  , and that is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .

Cheers


Nelson Rocha


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #218 on: March 29, 2017, 07:53:33 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #219 on: March 29, 2017, 08:45:28 PM »
What is this, low-hanging-fruit day?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd5w8KhYrQk

OF COURSE it is frequency dependent.

What do you think "IN EVERY COIL" means in that quote? He is NOT ONLY referring to his bifilar winding.
As Tesla says in the patent, the Tesla Bifilar winding has increased interturn capacitance which reduces
the EXTERNAL CAPACITANCE needed to produce this effect on self-inductance at a given frequency and voltage.
In his day, high-voltage capacitors were bulky, expensive and unreliable, so there was a good reason to
try to reduce the external capacitance required and to increase the self-capacitance of certain coils which
he used in his "tesla coils" of various designs. Note the title of the patent: Coil for ELECTROMAGNETS.
But the effect itself can be obtained WITH ANY COIL and suitable external capacitance.

So how do you get a magnetic field in your electromagnet without self-inductance? How do you transfer
power to a secondary coil without an alternating magnetic field? By magic? Funny, then, how well
mathematical models work for coil behaviour when they don't have to include magic in the calculations.

http://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/EddyCurrents/Physics/selfinductance.htm

Many people who should know better choose to misinterpret Tesla's patent, and not only this one.
And many people seem to confuse inductive reactance with self-inductance. 

(And Tesla isn't the "father of pancake coils". At best he's a cousin or nephew.)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #220 on: March 29, 2017, 08:52:46 PM »
I am going to assume that Tesla had a strong intuitive sense and understanding of what he was observing and analyzing and applying, but he did not have the circuit analysis theory or applied mathematical background to model these systems.

The actual analysis and modeling has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance

"Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Impedance_2

"The parallel LC circuit connected in series with a load will act as band-stop filter having infinite impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit. The parallel LC circuit connected in parallel with a load will act as band-pass filter."

Exactly. There is nothing magic or special about the Tesla bifilar winding to produce this effect. As Tesla says in the quote, "IN EVERY COIL". The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency. AS TESLA SAYS in the patent.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #220 on: March 29, 2017, 08:52:46 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #221 on: March 29, 2017, 08:55:30 PM »
I just say, like someone could read in the posts i write , that pancake coil have special properties and that to me is irrefutable, under what i see in practical work and others already saw , something that you don't know but  only theorize .

Yes you can claim that a pancake coil has special properties.  Now, this might be the third time I will ask you:  What are the special properties of the pancake coil?  If you don't say anything one more time then people will conclude that you have nothing.

Yes Evostars , the father of pancake coils  say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction"  only need find the right frequency to that happens , and seems is that that some really don't agree

You are not understanding the links I posted earlier.  This statement, "Therefore the series LC circuit, when connected in series with a load, will act as a band-pass filter having zero impedance at the resonant frequency of the LC circuit," says that the coil possesses no self-induction at the resonance frequency because the lnductive reactance is cancelled out by the capacitive reactance.

(No self induction) is the reason to the compass not show any deflection even when  drive a load , not by the high frequency like someone say .

So you are finally making a technical statement to back up one of your claims.  Unfortunately the statement is wrong.  Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field, therefore the compass needle shows no deflection."  The pancake coil is producing a magnetic field whether it is in self-resonance or not in self-resonance.  In fact, the chances of the coil in your clip actually being in self-resonance are dubious, there is a lot of resonance confirmation bias taking place between you and Evostars.  The coil having no self-induction at self-resonance does not mean that the coil is not producing a magnetic field.  Like I previously stated, the compass needle is simply not going to deflect in the presence of a high-frequency AC magnetic field.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #222 on: March 29, 2017, 08:56:49 PM »
Yes, Nelson, you have "The right to disagree". You also have the "right" to be wrong. But do you have the right to push your wrong ideas onto other people?

Tell us what Tesla means when he says "IN EVERY COIL".

Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #223 on: March 29, 2017, 09:45:54 PM »
What really amazes me is how many people have jumped on this bandwagon that resonance is some kind of magic ingredient in an OU device.  I am not saying that OU is not possible although I haven't seen definite proof of it yet, but I don't think most people on these forums have a clue what resonance is or how normal and common it is.  Resonance has been used since the very early days of radio to allow you to tune in one station instead of a bunch of them at one time.  In any superterodyne receiver there are several tuned stages to give more gain and selectivity to the signal.  I am not saying more gain in power.  All of these stages are tuned to resonance for the best transfer of signal.  Ham radio operators use to have to tune their transmitters so the output stages were in resonance.  Now it is done automatically for them.  I think YouTube must be a secret plot to dumb down the people of this and other countries because that seems to be the only place anyone wants to learn from.

GET SOME REAL EDUCATION PEOPLE AND FORGET THE GARBAGE YOU ARE LEARNING FROM DUMBTUBE.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #224 on: March 29, 2017, 10:08:40 PM »


“So you are finally making a technical statement to back up one of your claims. Unfortunately the statement is wrong. Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field, therefore the compass needle shows no deflection." The pancake coil is producing a magnetic field whether it is in self-resonance or not in self-resonance.”

Where you see i say that pancake coil has no self induction MH ?

I say :

“the father of pancake coils say exactly that "it possessed no self-induction" only need find the right frequency to that happens .”
 
Are you blind you are you try manipulate  what i wrote ?

“ Your logic seems to be this: "Since the pancake coil has no self-induction, therefore the coil is not producing a magnetic field”

MH Is you logic not mine a logic of someone very dirty  but not surprise me i already saw that same behavior in other occasions.


“The coil having no self-induction at self-resonance does not mean that the coil is not producing a magnetic field.”


MH You write that not me . Did i wrote  that not produce magnetic field ?  show me please where i wrote that .

“Yes, Nelson, you have "The right to disagree". You also have the "right" to be wrong. But do you have the right to push your wrong ideas onto other people?”

For sure i that right to disagree, but what wrong ideia are you talk about TK  ?

When he says: "in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction...", he is NOT suggesting that there are no external magnetic fields or effects associated with magnetic fields!

Erfinder where i wrote that please show me . Read very well the post , MH make that assumption because like manipulate what people say but i did not write that  .   

“How do you transfer power to a secondary coil without an alternating magnetic field? By magic? “
TK are you try put words in my mouth too  ? I will tell you to read better where i wrote that because is not my affirmation , but seems convenient to you make that assumption…

“The Tesla bifilar winding just has more interturn capacitance and so needs less external capacitance to make the LC circuit resonate at a given frequency”

TK isn’t that a special property of pancake coil in relation to others coils ? It seems to me that is one special property isn't  ?    


“Yes you can claim that a pancake coil has special properties. Now, this might be the third time I will ask you: What are the special properties of the pancake coil? If you don't say anything one more time then people will conclude that you have nothing.”

MH People could conclude what they want , just need be impartial and read very clearly all the posts .
 You manipulate what i say nothing more then that , but is nothing new by your side .
And i know that you will continue again and again but it’s ok . keep trying ...:)  I'm just now light a neon to you :) only with a hand .

real sad real sad .

Nelson Rocha













 

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