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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 303465 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #195 on: March 29, 2017, 03:25:08 AM »
Carroll:

Freie Energie bald oder sterben!   ;D

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #196 on: March 29, 2017, 04:38:44 AM »
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

I must say, dear Partzman, that I am both surprised and unsurprised by your attitude.

Clearly, "those guys at Tektronix" (the scientists, I mean, not the mere engineers) would be scrambling all over themselves to confirm, by other methods, a measurement that indicated some anomaly like more _energy_ out than in. I believe they even sell advanced power measurement software packages for their high-end scopes, and I'm quite sure they have access to stand-alone broadband power analyzers, and might even resort to calorimetry as MH outlined -- since a Nobel Prize is at stake. However when someone makes valid suggestions to you to try to attain Concurrent Validity (a technical term, look it up) for your claims of OU based on a scopetrace, you resist it and respond with this kind of sarcasm. I'm surprised at that because I know something of your background and I would have expected more of a truly scientific attitude from you.

On the other hand I am not surprised, because it is very common in this field of research (sic) for a person to latch onto some bit of data, however sketchy, that appears to _confirm_ his dearly-held hypotheses, to the exclusion of all criticism, and to avoid performing any kind of experiment that even has the potential for falsifying them. This tendency even has a name and is rather well-studied by experimental and social psychologists: Confirmation Bias.

A real scientist, aware of the danger of Confirmation Bias and the need for Concurrent Validity, would be doing everything in his power to _disprove_ his own hypotheses by performing appropriate control experiments, and in addition would be seeking as much concurrent validity as possible by performing alternate tests and measurements, like calorimetry and using broadband power analyzers and even, heaven and the PTB forbid, attempting self-looping.

Certainly a _real_ COP of 1.6 should be sufficient to overcome inevitable losses in the "non-OU" parts of an electronic or electromechanical circuit to enable self-looping or daisy-chaining with power left over to run an external load of some kind. My own hypothetical threshold for this is a COP of a mere 1.3. But since nobody has seen fit to provide _me_ with a demonstration apparatus that truly produces any excess _energy_ over and above that required to run it, I have no experimental proof that a self looper can be attained at a COP of 1.3.

You are right about one thing, though: Only a fool would rely _solely_ on "stupid scope measurements" for a claim like this.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #197 on: March 29, 2017, 08:03:39 AM »
Well, thanks for the sarcastic comment stating that I must possess enough knowledge.

Do you remember saying this?

Did you read the thread about understanding coil discharges that Carroll linked to?

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

Did you see how hard I worked to help other people in that thread?  Did you see how I offered multiple explanations to help people understand?  I must be such a terrible person, eh Nelson?  On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago.   He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.

And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

And I have read lots of straw man arguments from you about me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


I have asked you to back up your technical claims with logical arguments and you have never done it once.  I am operating on the assumption that you are a beginner and you simply were unable to back up your technical claims.  You simply said those things because they are "buzz phrases" that beginning amateur experimenters use all the time.

So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.

MileHigh


“There are only four types of people in the world regarding discovery and invention:
The most common are those who watch and observe, and profit from invention and discovery; are intrigued by its discoveries.
The second most common are those who dissuade others from invention and discovery, and try to prevent them both mentally and
physically from discovery claiming: ‘this can lead to nowhere’, or ‘that course is a dead end, there is nothing there.’
The third most common are greedy and lustful inventors who desire only fame, profit, and acclaim, nothing matters but any angle that
can be exploited to be used to exploit others for their own ends. Discovery is not an ends to these people, only a means to exploit
others.
The fourth, and most rare are those who do not care about the first three types of people; these rare few have a vision or visions and
are hell-bent to uncover the mysteries of the universe, not out of desire for profit or fame or empirical motives, but the only pure,
noble, and righteous intent, that being pure discovery and understanding as its own ends. The expansion of comprehension and wisdom”

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #197 on: March 29, 2017, 08:03:39 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #198 on: March 29, 2017, 09:58:22 AM »
Your quote leaves one type out of course. The type you left out includes people who actually do know better and who point out the mistakes and false claims and even fraudulent hoaxes that the other types are too blind or biased or prejudiced or simply ignorant to see for themselves. This type you so conveniently left out can save, and has saved, millions and untold millions of dollars by vetting claims and allowing investors who are not specialists or scientists to save their money, time and creative juices for better projects that may actually have a chance of coming to fruition.

Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #199 on: March 29, 2017, 11:00:55 AM »
Hmmm
the problem is intuition ,that nagging feeling your missing something really simple...

Milehigh posted an image of natives who saw a plane fly over and they made one out of grass thinking they could then fly too.
maybe they should make a lightning bolt ??

for a very long time we have been bombarded with energy 24/7 365 ...for ever actually [our ever]
it is jumping from the atmosphere in lightening bolts everywhere on the planet....

its so dangerous it could easily kill us....

yeah we're missing something, ...could it be as Wesley mentions ??  a simple electrostatic pump
a pump which summons lightning bolts ??

or maybe it hides in plain site in the Atom's ??

 Every single thing around us seems to be powered at the "atomic level" FOR EVER
and we're told "so what"....have you ever seen the picture of what happens if you split one of these atoms which can run for ever ??
YEASH.... !!!

And then there's the sun..it  pounds 1200 watts per meter onto the planet ....
and we're sitting on a MONSTEROUS spinning magnet...
and there is much much more....

IMO anybody who feels we have learned all there is to learn about harvesting energy on this DYNAMO of an arcing sparking planet
we inhabit [which is entirely composed of these Atom things [YIKES]

anybody who feels we know all there is to know about energy harvesting here.???

should stick to building Grass Planes  drinking beer and writing silly poems....


yeah we're definitely missing something really really simple here...

in the mean time be careful of the lightning bolts around your grass planes....and be careful with those Atom's too...

But I have to agree with Tinsel on the "not wasting time" or  other peoples Time...open source has one big advantage...
finding out the truth and vetting claims saves people time .[which is what Milehigh and others try to do]

but that requires Open source disclosure....

so as Tinsel says

""saving time and creative juices for better projects that may actually have a chance of coming to fruition.""
---------------------------------




RE Partzman and his claims ,
its not his first summer !
 Partzman practices Brutal honesty and we have all seen this many times [if you have payed attention]

he is a man of integrity and a huge asset to this OPEN SOURCE community...as are others here...

quite certain there will be more to come there ...good or bad it will be the truth....

respectfully
Chet K







Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #199 on: March 29, 2017, 11:00:55 AM »
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Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #200 on: March 29, 2017, 11:04:47 AM »

“There are only four types of people in the world regarding discovery and invention:
The most common are those who watch and observe, and profit from invention and discovery; are intrigued by its discoveries.
The second most common are those who dissuade others from invention and discovery, and try to prevent them both mentally and
physically from discovery claiming: ‘this can lead to nowhere’, or ‘that course is a dead end, there is nothing there.’
The third most common are greedy and lustful inventors who desire only fame, profit, and acclaim, nothing matters but any angle that
can be exploited to be used to exploit others for their own ends. Discovery is not an ends to these people, only a means to exploit
others.
The fourth, and most rare are those who do not care about the first three types of people; these rare few have a vision or visions and
are hell-bent to uncover the mysteries of the universe, not out of desire for profit or fame or empirical motives, but the only pure,
noble, and righteous intent, that being pure discovery and understanding as its own ends. The expansion of comprehension and wisdom”
+1
Who's quote is that? I've seen it before.
Im guessing, Eric p Dollard

edit: 200th reply!

Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #201 on: March 29, 2017, 11:50:06 AM »
Carroll:

Freie Energie bald oder sterben!   ;D

Yes!

Although my last name is German and I am half German, I don't speak it, so I had to look that up.  LOL  :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #201 on: March 29, 2017, 11:50:06 AM »
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Offline Grumage

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #202 on: March 29, 2017, 12:20:42 PM »
Hmmm.

I see the OU Police are back on the beat.

Better pack up those gadgets and gizmos guys lest you get caught by a Cop>1!

 ;)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #203 on: March 29, 2017, 12:46:27 PM »
Hmmm.

I see the OU Police are back on the beat.

Better pack up those gadgets and gizmos guys lest you get caught by a Cop>1!

 ;)

Well, we have seen people on this thread and others, making claims and assertions that are demonstrably wrong and easily refuted, and other wild claims that have no experimental support at all and are at odds with conventional physics. And I'm not talking about Partzman or Nelson here, who indeed belong to different categories.
 
Would you prefer that these false claims and unsupported "theorizing" go unchallenged and unrefuted, so they can filter down and corrupt the thinking of well-intentioned but naive persons who may not know any better? 

Suppose somebody told you that you could take an old one-lunger, connect it to a flywheel and a generator made from a rewound washing machine motor, and use its output to electrolyze water (with a pinch of pixie dust and a special pulse circuit of course) and run the engine solely from the gas generated? Would you drop everything else you are doing and rush out to your shed and start welding up frames and bolting parts together, and start encouraging others to do the same? Or would you shake your head and make a post or two to point out the fundamental errors in the claim?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #203 on: March 29, 2017, 12:46:27 PM »
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Offline Grumage

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #204 on: March 29, 2017, 01:03:13 PM »
'Twas a bit of light hearted humour, nothing more.

Grab another coffee, it's early where you are!

                              :)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #205 on: March 29, 2017, 01:12:01 PM »
'Twas a bit of light hearted humour, nothing more.

Grab another coffee, it's early where you are!

                              :)

Right you are! Except from my perspective, it's late rather than early. 4 pm local time would be my "early" !   ::)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #205 on: March 29, 2017, 01:12:01 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #206 on: March 29, 2017, 01:28:23 PM »

It all comes down to this:

“I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.”


That choice is not yours, and as you say, I or anyone else has the right to follow what he believes.


“What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.”

If this forum if this forum is not a good learning environment , what are doing here ?

“For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.”

Nonsense

“Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.”

Are you trying to "evangelize" another sheep?


“Ooh is that TheOldScientist clip ever cringeworthy.”

Do your own experiments, and show the world how strict you are, rather than criticizing who actually does something to reach the masses.


“Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist.  He is free energy clickbait.”

Is it really? Or is it just an elbow pain you feel?


“In a certain sense I suppose that we are both in the same position then, aren't we?  You are talking before testing also, aren't you?  So why do you disagree with me?”

The only person who has not tested any of the statements was clearly you. Is not true ?


“Speaking of opening your mind, do you actually know how a coil works?  It's fun to play with them but I can tell you that more than 95% of experimenters on places like this don't know how coils actually work.”

Your certificate of incompetence certainly had not served the majority.

“Nelson, I asked you specific questions about your claims about pancake coils and your bench work and you are avoiding answering them.  Why are you avoiding answering?”

What claims did I in particular? That pancake coil have special properties?
It's true I keep my position.

“Evostars: Don't be passive-aggressive rude with this "I am not reading you" comment.”

Who are you to speak of rudeness? Surely you are not really aware of the egocentric, manipulative and disrespectful way you talk to people, do not you?


“You made some claims and when you were asked to back them up you had nothing to say.  I wasn't asking my questions for fun, I wanted to see what you had to say, which we now know is nothing.  Anybody can play with a coil and light some LEDs.  Who is acing like the child?”

No comments , you are sure that you are old enough not to behave this way, but not all in good time reach full maturity of spirit.

“Stop with your psychobabble nonsense.  I will meet your psychobabble and we will call it a truce.  You and Evostars fit the psychological profile that we all know and have seen many times before.”

To me seems exactly happen the opposite , you psychological profile should be not so much appreciated by the most people , and is just spend some minutes to read some of your posts and is clear by the feedback that people give . 

“You stick your head in the sand.  You even get desperate and start to insult the people that you were having a debate with.”

Unlike you, I did not insult anyone or make disparaging remarks from people who are not even here to defend themselves, and that is transparent as water.


“We all know how the story ends also.  After a few months of replicating all of the flashing LED experiments and the lighting of CFL experiments and replicating some amazing high voltage spark experiments done with coils, you start to lose enthusiasm and it gets less and less interesting.  You realize that after six months your progress is not going anywhere and you still don't really understand basic electronics.  So you give up and throw your coils into a cardboard box.  Five years later you realize that you still haven't touched the box and you throw it in the garbage.”

My enthusiasm is much higher than you think , but your's seems dissipate day by day just because you are only a person that seems  to be the center of attention and day by day you just become know by your irascible behavior.

“Time to stick your head in the sand (don't read this):  And when you first connect the wires from your battery to your coil, at that instant of contact the coil acts like an open-circuit.  The coil has infinite resistance when you first make an electrical contact with it.  It's all very interesting, but you don't want to know that, you want to make neons light up in your hand!”

You even know my work so , you are only speculate just to convince yourself that you are wining the "battle" created against the "evil dark people" like me , that have courage to answer you in same coin .

“Go play with your coils.”

Just when you start not have more arguments a childish answer   ,is only that that you have ?


“Like you, I also got caught up in all the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves etc.  Ten years later I now know most of that is just hype to sell books.”

All the pseudo science jargon of moving the aether and scalar waves are study in present time by scientists  even you or others could say is only fantasy .


“My service is to them and I can assure you that many of them understand what I am saying and they understand my qualification of you and Evostars and they know exactly what container that the two of you fit into.”

Ohh i see ,  but like you already say only 5% knows how a simple coil work , you fail roundly in your attempts , you need help the other 95%  if is really your mission . Pathetic

“Or perhaps Nelson got a dose of RomeroUK sickness.  I get the feeling there is some poor guy in Kuala Lumpur that paid a few thousand dollars for a shoe box containing a Joule Thief circuit and every few months he stares at it.  That is not going to save the millions of people that starve to death each year.”

Moralist nonsense Fedivairy , i work ever week make community service to old people and homeless people , is something that to me is already any palpable action not graisy words like yours .


“I actually came into this thread very diplomatically and tried to explain to you what you were doing and observing.  I said that you can choose to go your own way, or try pursuing two paths such that you would try to learn and understand the information that I and others were offering you.”

You diplomatically ? I spend a bit of my time collecting some sentences  since begin the topic, only to show other  people how you a are poor unfortunate , and how work your diplomacy .


“I can assure you that I seriously doubt that I will post in this thread any more to try to help you with sound advice and explanations and to share some knowledge.  I will be more than content to watch the comedy skit from the sidelines.”

Yes , but you return ! Milehigh never loose a battle , and we should make feel , that you win only to you stop and go way ?

“They apparently aren't at all interested in learning anything that might disturb their fantasies.”

My Fantasies or other's Fantasies is not of your concern like yours in not of my concern.


“So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again. “

How kind of you to other people ...


“On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago. He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.”

Yes but maybe the opposite should happen , and fore sure much people in silence are think how true is that . 


“So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

Yes very reasonable , and i told you many times that i respect you opinion about some subjects , and even that is not enough to you , because you continue try impose something to others that i really don't understand why .

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.”


My hands are not in pockets , ether watch blinking lights; is your case ? Make something more useful for you if you mission is help the community Instead of strutting you, how smart you are.
There are sites where the information you explain is provided more clearly and without the cost of your heartburn and arrogance.

This is a forum where alternative energy is discussed. Not to endure arrogance, and unbridled  as happened in this topic.
The topic started with "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency" and little was said about this particular issue, just because Some egocentric behaviors.

Nelson Rocha





Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #207 on: March 29, 2017, 01:47:06 PM »
Good Nelson, you are all butt hurt for being told that your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are unacceptable.  It doesn't feel good to be labeled the "bad guy," does it?  It upset you to the point that you had to do the "big thread shakedown."

Just check your behaviour and simply act like a normal person.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #208 on: March 29, 2017, 01:55:52 PM »
Quote
“So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again. “

How kind of you to other people ...
How kind of you to mix my comment in with your quotes from MH. I repay kindness with more kindness, and scorn with more scorn, as is only fair. Have you noticed that nobody bothers to reply to Allen Burgess's threads on EF any more? (Except Ramset of course, who is superhumanly kind to everyone, stray cats and dogs included.) THAT is scorn, and is especially sour when you consider the general content of EF.

Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #209 on: March 29, 2017, 02:09:29 PM »
Another quote form Tesla's patent 512340 (bifilar coils):

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance,

or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.

 This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction





 

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