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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 301708 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #180 on: March 28, 2017, 05:24:19 PM »
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

And the behaviour of LC circuits, where energy is exchanged between the magnetic field in the inductor and the electric field in the capacitor, is an entirely different kettle of fish than the simple issue of which direction current flows during the inductor _discharge_.

It is easy to prove that the current does not reverse during inductor discharge, as many people have tried to tell you.

May I suggest that you set up your own experiment, perform it and report the details and results here.

I can explain why the misconception of current reversal likely happens but it would require me to lift a finger or two to draw some diagrams, and frankly, I already know that none of the "believers" will be convinced by anything other than performing their OWN well-thought-out and properly conducted experiments, and maybe not even then.

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Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #181 on: March 28, 2017, 05:41:39 PM »
Quote
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

Except that the YouTube and many forums are full of them. We can for example ask Nelson Rocha what he thinks about it - he already got nice money for it and he isn't still prosecuted as a cheater. So that one can be sure, that people who did pay him (and another ones, who are still paying him for similar project) aren't idiots. IMO you're just getting jealous about it and you're upset, that you weren't successful with it yet. You're not the first guy, who is behaving in the same way here. The people with highest number of posts are just these ones most frustrated with their effort.

Another question is, what the people who don't believe that overunity exist are looking for at just overunity forum? There are so many other forums, much better suited for their orientation - why they're visiting just this one? Why just the people with highest number of posts are most opposing the overunity here? Why they're wasting their time like this? Such a people are suspicious for me automatically, because they don't apparently do what they claim they believe in. Once the people don't do what they believe, then the money or struggle for power are usually involved. Are they agents of fossil fuel lobby, mainstream science trolls or what? At any case, such a people are diluting/polluting all overunity discussions being OT automatically. If you don't like cats, you shouldn't post in forums about cats, because this forum is designed for people favoring and interested about cats. Of course, it's possible you're liking dogs more and this is normal - why not. But after then you should visit forum about dogs - or you're not normal anymore.

Every strange behavior has its hidden reason. At any case, I tend to ignore the opinion of people, who don't act according to their own words and proclamations. Or better to say, I tend to believe in exactly the opposite of what they're telling me.

Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #182 on: March 28, 2017, 07:16:18 PM »
There ARE NO "overunity circuits" !!! Using pancake, Tesla bifilar, solenoidal, multilayer or any other kind of coils, stimulated in any way at all. NONE.

[snip]


Errr TK,  I have to respectively disagree with you based on my own research and development in magneto electric induction using so called pancake coils.  Attached is a scope pix of a device consisting of vertical pcb coils in a circuit that was actually posted on the "Partnered Output Coil" thread on this forum.  I have not disclosed all the circuit details but essentially great care was taken in both circuit elements and the measurement techniques due to the frequencies involved.

Basically, CH1(yel) is the input pulse from an Ixys high speed fet driver, CH2(blu) is the voltage measured across a 1 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor that monitors the current drawn from the driver pulse, CH3(pnk) is the voltage across a 50 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor used as the output load, and the Math channel(red) is the product of CH1 x CH2 resulting in the mean input power.

As can be seen, the input power drawn from the input pulse is 88.52mw ( the 88.52mVV seen is the result of the product of two voltages but the voltage across the 1 ohm sense resistor represents the actual current so the real product is mw).  The output power is (2.72^2)/50 = 148mw rms for a COP = 1.67.  There are many variations of this circuitry all utilizing pancake coils with some actually able to reach higher COPs.

Regards,
pm

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying!

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #182 on: March 28, 2017, 07:16:18 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #183 on: March 28, 2017, 08:12:53 PM »
Partzman:

I find it hard to believe that you are not questioning your data.  The period of the pulse train is about 260 nanoseconds.  You are sampling at 2.5 GHz.  One nanosecond corresponds to one gigahertz.  So you have about 650 samples per period of the pulse train.  That sounds half-decent but look at the high-frequency ringing in your waveforms.  They are barely being sampled enough to give me confidence that you are not accumulating errors.  Plus all of your conversion on these scopes is a rough 8-bits, right?  There is another source of error.

Now, are the sampling errors and very possible subsampling errors and the quantization errors all supposed to average out and cancel each other out?  I think that might be the case but only if your trigger event time is random.  But if you are triggering on the falling edge of the square wave I am not sure if that is the case.  For example, the trigger might be synchronous enough with the waveform such that you get consistent subsampling errors on the very high frequency ringing that is in one direction only.

Now, I am no metrology expert by any means.  But let me just throw this idea out at you.  It's probably not the best way to do it with the current state of the art, but I think that at least the principles I will state are sound.

For all I know the input power or the power supplied to the device under test could be accurately measured with a Clarke Hess power meter but I don't know anything about them so I will go the analog route.  Presumably you can make a very accurate measurement of the capacitance of a large capacitor bank.  I have seen Luc's amazing volt meter with five digits of precision after the decimal point.  So suppose that you will run an experiment for 10 minutes where the energy provided to the device under test comes from a large capacitor bank that discharges from say six volts to say five volts, all measured with five digits of precision after the decimal point.   So we will presume that you have a quite accurate measurement of the energy supplied to the device under test.

I am going to assume that you can measure the ON resistance of the Ixys high speed fet driver circuit and make an accurate measurement of how much energy is burnt off in the switching circuit over the 10-minute test.  I am going to assume that the net energy delivered to the device under test is the supplied capacitor bank energy minus the switching circuit energy.

So for the output energy you have a special closed test tube with embedded electrical contacts so you can make a nice clean connection to the 50 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive film resistor which is sitting in a precise amount of mineral oil.  You know the thermal capacity of the test tube to very high accuracy.  You know the thermal capacity of the mineral oil to very high accuracy.  Naturally the test tube is sitting in some kind of professional-grade insulated box.

So you run the test for the ten minutes, then take out the test tube and lightly agitate it for five seconds, the wait another five seconds, and then take an accurate temperature reading of the test tube.  Then crunch the numbers from the temperature difference, and the thermal capacity of the test tube, the oil, and the resistor, and determine the thermal energy.

Do ten runs like that with all of the required error bars and see what you get.  If you saw over unity like that, then at least two other competent individuals with the proper equipment would have to replicate your results.  Then there might be something interesting going on.

Just my two cents worth.

MileHigh

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #184 on: March 28, 2017, 08:27:34 PM »
It has no meaning to speculate about overunity from oscilloscope data. The self-looped demo is the only thing which counts there.

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying! ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #184 on: March 28, 2017, 08:27:34 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #185 on: March 28, 2017, 09:39:22 PM »
Thanks for the clear explanation MH.  I have used your analogy of a coil and flywheel several times times since you first told me about it several years ago.  Most people understand that analogy better than the conventional explanation.  The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

@Citfa,

I have a quote from you on my "flyback current reversal" thread over at Energetic Fórum as Allen Burgess, where you impudently state that current runs in one direction and one direction only in the Ruhmkopf coil secondary. Do you still cling to that outrageous and pig-headed claim?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #186 on: March 28, 2017, 10:17:45 PM »
@Partzman:
I know you have a lot of experience in these matters, so I am also, along with MH, surprised that you are not questioning your scope's "numbers in boxes". What happens if you apply some low-pass filtering to the signals before you do the math? Does your "overunity" result reside solely in the spikes and ringing? If so, does that tell you anything significant?

I have scope traces (on high-end Tek and LeCroy oscilloscopes to boot) from absolutely positively known-to-be underunity circuitry that also "show" overunity results; specifically, a _decreasing_ energy integral over time. I can haz cheezburger now?

It's really too bad that we can't run anything on pretty coloured wiggly lines. However, if you can do the elementary calorimetry experiment that MH has outlined, and obtain a string of positive results, it would carry a lot more weight than your scopeshot.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #186 on: March 28, 2017, 10:17:45 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #187 on: March 28, 2017, 10:19:54 PM »
@Citfa,

I have a quote from you on my "flyback current reversal" thread over at Energetic Fórum as Allen Burgess, where you impudently state that current runs in one direction and one direction only in the Ruhmkopf coil secondary. Do you still cling to that outrageous and pig-headed claim?

So... you are EF's Allen Burgess? That explains a lot, for sure. You get yet another ROFL, and nobody will ever look at your posts here in quite the same light again.


Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #188 on: March 28, 2017, 11:24:37 PM »
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #188 on: March 28, 2017, 11:24:37 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #189 on: March 28, 2017, 11:34:17 PM »
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

Lol :)  Nowadays we are arrested for having and not having.
If you do not show them any shot scope, they would ask for those same shot scope ...

Then they will say that it needs to be validated by people competent for this work ... I can only think of someone with enough knowledge to do this validation, MH or TK Team marvel. or should i call cheezburger team ?

Nelson Rocha

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #190 on: March 29, 2017, 01:29:49 AM »
@ MH, TK, Zephir,

Yeah, you guys are right!  Only a fool would rely on stupid scope measurements and I wanna know, how do these guys at Tektronix sleep at night?

pm

I am surprised at the sarcasm in your reply.  For starters, an inductor does not give you OU so why should a pancake coil give you OU?  Your apparent results are easily verifiable with calorimetry considering you are quoting a COP of 1.67.

I reached way back into my memory from my numerical analysis course and the way to compensate for sampling and quantization errors is to use true random sampling of a waveform.  There is a general area of study with many useful applications called "Monte Carlo methods."

Here is a link about using Monte Carlo methods for calculating an integral with discrete samples:

https://www.scratchapixel.com/lessons/mathematics-physics-for-computer-graphics/monte-carlo-methods-in-practice/monte-carlo-integration

Quote:

As you may remember, the integral of a function f(x) can be interpreted as calculating the area below the function's curve. This idea is illustrated in figure 1. Now imagine that we just pick up a random value, say x in the range [a,b], evaluate the function f(x) at x and multiply the result by (b-a). Figure 2 shows what the result looks like: it's another rectangle (where f(x) is the height of that rectangle and (b-a) its width), which in a way you can also look at a very crude approximation of the area under the curve. Of couse we maybe get it more or less right. If we evaluate the function at x1 (figure 3) we quite drastically underestimate this area. If we evaluate the function at x2, we over estimate the area. But as we keep evaluating the function at different random points between a and b, adding up the area of the rectangles and averaging the sum, the resulting number gets closer and closer to the actual result of the integral. It's not surprising in a way as the rectangles which are too large compensate for the rectangles which are too small. And in fact, we will soon give the proof that summing them up and averaging their areas actually converges to the integral "area" as the number of samples used in the calculation increases. This idea is illustrated in the following figure. The function was evaluated in four different locations. The result of the function as these four values of x randomly chosen, are then multiplied by (b-a), summed up and averaged (we divide the sum by 4). The result can be considered as an approximation of the actual integral.

I seriously doubt your DSO is using Monte Carlo methods and since you are in pretty grainy territory the confidence that your measurement is OU is very low.

MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #190 on: March 29, 2017, 01:29:49 AM »
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Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #191 on: March 29, 2017, 02:25:01 AM »
The oscilloscope is great until you're tinkering and if you need to find a working point of transistor or resonance frequency of circuit - but once you claim overunity, then the self-looped (self-running) circuit cannot beat any preliminary test. The power measurements are notoriously unreliable due to (displacement) power factor poorly defined at high frequencies, crosstalks of signal into scope probe and so on..

Quote
an inductor does not give you OU so why should a pancake coil give you OU

Because the pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM wave through evanescent field runs with superluminal speed, whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional, normal causality violating effect in essence and the normal spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #192 on: March 29, 2017, 02:42:16 AM »
Lol :)  Nowadays we are arrested for having and not having.
If you do not show them any shot scope, they would ask for those same shot scope ...

Then they will say that it needs to be validated by people competent for this work ... I can only think of someone with enough knowledge to do this validation, MH or TK Team marvel. or should i call cheezburger team ?

Nelson Rocha

Well, thanks for the sarcastic comment stating that I must possess enough knowledge.

Do you remember saying this?

like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .

Did you read the thread about understanding coil discharges that Carroll linked to?

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

Did you see how hard I worked to help other people in that thread?  Did you see how I offered multiple explanations to help people understand?  I must be such a terrible person, eh Nelson?  On a side note, I looked through that thread again and when I read it I recalled good old Luc calling me a "troll" a few months ago.   He deserves a swift kick in the ass for saying that.

And in this thread I have read many really nasty and ugly ad hominem attacks from you against me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

And I have read lots of straw man arguments from you about me.  In case you don't know what that means, let me remind you:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


I have asked you to back up your technical claims with logical arguments and you have never done it once.  I am operating on the assumption that you are a beginner and you simply were unable to back up your technical claims.  You simply said those things because they are "buzz phrases" that beginning amateur experimenters use all the time.

So, going forward, I welcome any contribution to this thread by you.  But I don't want any more ad hominem attacks on me, nor do I want any straw man arguments being made about me, nor do I want any fake technical claims being made by you that you can't back up with logical arguments.  Does that sound reasonable?

If the subject matter is above your technical level, then try to learn, keep your hands in your pockets, relax, and watch the blinking lights.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #193 on: March 29, 2017, 02:47:21 AM »
Because the pancake coil has the evanescent scalar wave phenomena enhanced - whereas the normal inductors have them suppressed. The tunneling of EM wave through evanescent field runs with superluminal speed, whereas EM wave in classical circuits always propagates with speed of light or lower. The overunity is extradimensional effect in essence and the spreading of EM waves along conductors cannot achieve it.

Before you get into your esoterica I suggest that you read the thread that Carroll linked to and try to understand how a coil discharges.  The dawning of the Age of Aquarius is going to have to wait.

Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #194 on: March 29, 2017, 03:18:13 AM »
MileHigh,

I love that sign!  We used to have one just like it on one of the beam welders I used to work on.  You gave me a nice laugh posting that.  I saved it so I can put it up in my shop.

Thanks,
Carroll

 

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