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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 301627 times)

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2017, 04:49:18 PM »
Quote
Perhaps, so as a matter of interest where did Roma (Akula) hide his car battery then, it must have been in another dimension then? Aren't we constantly being bombarded with plasma streams and charged particles from the Sun ? there is also the deception from corporate 'quackery' trying to halt the 'free' independence thing ect. which result in pressure on those in the 'know how to' area to 'doctor saboteur' this know how information
.
This is the same story: if you don't believe in overunity, what are waiting for here?
Quote from: Nelson Rocha
I already answer in the topic "solid state devices / Re: FE Device by 'Armored Train" that circuit is only a more efficient way to discharge a capacitor
After then I don't understand Your story about Japanese company, which you allegedly sold this circuit for few thousands Euro... ;-)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2017, 05:10:31 PM »
I'm in an Internet kiosk because my 5th straight laptop froze up from a fatal Overunity virus. My last comment was 6 pages ago because the kiosk was closed on Sunday. I did the magnet strength test on both the single wire and serial coils and both lifted the same number of Hex nuts. This comes as no surprise due to the identical inductance.

However, as I pointed out, the serial bifilar generates a spontaneous gain while in self resonance when coupled to a ferrite core resulting in a magnetizing effect.

Secondly, and more importantly, I described the magnet wave induction grid where incresed voltage, transformed from a large storage battery, can instantly match the load. This beats running a coal fired generator at full tilt to feed amperage into the grid.

The longitudinal magnet wave is the transverse wave traveling sideways. Power can be moved faster and more efficiently by way of magnetic induction, then by sending sinusoidal electricy through a conductor end to end.

Eric Dollard is trying to isolate specific XM Sirius type frequencies to allow for billing consumers from a Wardenclyffe transmitter.
Skycollection's layered bifilars in self resonance can be buried underground and carry power by magnetisem instead of electricity. A much more efficient grid.     

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2017, 06:34:05 PM »
.
...about Japanese company, which you allegedly sold this circuit for few thousands Euro... ;-)


Hi Zephir ,
Is not Japanese but South Korean  company , and i not allegedly sell , i sell in very real business € :)  .

What you don't understand ?  I tell you i'm PM that i sold it in 2014 and after that i start work to a German company where i work at present time in energy alternative field  , i know my English is not the best , but i think most able to understand .
If you want say something more , ask me in PM i don't need expose myself to others .

cheers

Nelson Rocha

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2017, 06:34:05 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #168 on: March 28, 2017, 12:18:11 AM »
Dr. Myrl's video lecture series involves calculating the optimal spacing between serial bifilar pancake transmitter and reciever coils.

"The Old Scientist" ends his video series with two flag poles in the picture. Skycollection has his bifilar pancakes closer to each other then necessary.

A good place for them would be atop Elon Musk's "Hyper-Loop; Not only could they supply power to the levitaion tracks, but they could continue to transfer the leftover power over a long distance say from Las Vegas to Los Angeles, to help feed the grid in the megalópolis.   

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #169 on: March 28, 2017, 10:17:37 AM »
It's a slow news day on the thread so I whipped up a graphic.  I am doing it because I am pretty sure that there are many pancake coil enthusiasts out there that may have not considered all of the magnetic field and magnetic flux self-cancellation that occurs in a pancake coil.

The graphic shows any two arbitrary current loops in a pancake coil.  The blue loop is the inner loop and the red loop is the outer loop.  The graphic represents what is taking place in the plane of the pancake coil.

As you can see, between any two arbitrary current loops in the pancake coil, there is a yellow area of flux cancellation.  The fine purple line represents were the net magnetic field is zero.

I suppose the moral of the story is that if you are doing some basic experiments with coils and trying to figure out how they work, you are probably better of just making a standard cylindrical coil first.  Do some tests on that coil to understand its transient characteristics, its DC characteristics, and its AC characteristics.  Learn how the coil discharges through a resistive load.  Measure the L/R time constant using your scope.  Derive the value of the inductance from the L/R time constant.  Then measure the frequency of an LC resonator using your scope.  Derive the value of the inductance from the resonator frequency.  Then compare your inductance measurement using the time constant, the resonance frequency, and with an LC meter if you have one.  Learn and understand how the coil produces high-voltage spikes because it acts like a current source when it discharges.  It's not "radiant energy," that is just nonsensical fantasy talk.  Experiment with your standard cylindrical coil and understand how it ticks.

Then, go make yourself a pancake coil and go through the same exercise with the pancake coil.  You are going to discover that the pancake coil works in exactly the same way as the cylindrical coil.  You should see that for about the same amount of wire, a cylindrical coil gives you more inductance.

Then after doing that, enter the fabled and mysterious realm of self-resonance for the coil.  This is where the coil is failing to function as a coil anymore.  In essence, it is the same thing as making a conventional LC resonator using a discrete inductor and capacitor.  So, you have a coil self-resonating at a very high frequency with its own self-capacitance.  It represents a tiny energy storage resonator that will discharge almost instantly.  Does it have any practical value at all?  Personally, I can't think of one myself.  I view a self-resonating coil as a coil that is no longer working and instead its having a kind of epileptic seizure.  The coil only functions properly as a coil below the self-resonance frequency.  At the self-resonance frequency it's kind of useless.

Again, before you even approach studying the self-resonance of a coil, you should do the tests I outlined above and fully understand them and have a complete mastery of how a coil works.  A coil is equivalent to a mechanical flywheel in just about any way you can think of.  If you fully understand how a coil works and presumably you already intuitively understand how a mechanical flywheel works, you should be able to go back and forth between the electrical model for inductance and the mechanical model for inductance with no difficulty at all.

What i say above is the real deal and it would be a worthwhile exercise for anybody that wants to understand how a coil actually works.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #169 on: March 28, 2017, 10:17:37 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2017, 11:19:38 AM »
Thanks for the clear explanation MH.  I have used your analogy of a coil and flywheel several times times since you first told me about it several years ago.  Most people understand that analogy better than the conventional explanation.  The only exception seems to be the ones that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges.  For some people there is no hope they will ever learn.

Carroll

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2017, 11:20:22 AM »
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I outlined above and fully understand them and have a complete mastery of how a coil work
It would be great, because we all really need to understand it. The plain saying that it corresponds mechanical flywheel doesn't explain it very much - what rotates there? Note that large bifilar coil is merely symmetrical with respect to current flow in it. How the direction of rotation is defined for it after then? Why the zones pictured are formed along pancake coil? And has it something with overunity?
Quote
that stubbornly stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges
Normal coil "discharges" when the current is reversed (in similar way, like the capacitor - just the voltage/current phase is different). So, why the pancake coil should be an exception and when it gets discharged after then?

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2017, 11:20:22 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #172 on: March 28, 2017, 11:46:59 AM »
Hi Zephir,

If you really want to know what happens when a coil discharges here is a whole thread devoted to investigating that action.  There are some scope shots clearly showing what happens.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2017, 01:08:17 PM »
When the normal coil discharges, then the current travels in opposite way than during charging. I don't need to read whole thread about it, because it's commonly known situation. From this reason I'm just interested, why are you implying, that the pancake bifilar coil behaves differently.  Why the people shouldn't stick to the idea that the current reverses when the coil discharges?

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2017, 01:08:17 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #174 on: March 28, 2017, 01:41:37 PM »
Insert facepalm character here.    :-\

Offline web000x

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #175 on: March 28, 2017, 01:43:08 PM »
Insert facepalm character here.    :-\


I too was once dyslexic about that which reversed in a discharging coil.......

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #175 on: March 28, 2017, 01:43:08 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #176 on: March 28, 2017, 01:55:17 PM »
I never said the pancake coil was different.  If you would read the thread you would understand that the current DOES NOT reverse when a coil discharges.  That is true for any coil whether pancake, bilifer or any other configuration.  The idea of the current reversing apparently comes from people that get their education from YouTube.  I know of no one that has actually worked in electronics that believes the current reverses when a coil discharges.  The analogy of a flywheel holds true because the very definition of an inducter is that it resists any change in current flow just like a flywheel resists any change in rpm.  I am not going to rehash that whole thread in this post.  Read it and learn or ignore  it.  The choice of course is yours.  I was just offering you a source of experiments and observations to help you.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #177 on: March 28, 2017, 04:08:43 PM »
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the current DOES NOT reverse when a coil discharges.  That is true for any coil whether pancake, biflifar or any other configuration
OK - but at least the voltage of the opposite sign appears at the coil, once its magnetic field collapses. When the circuit is still closed, then the current of reversed polarity emerges in circuit. After all, it's visible easily in every circuit simulator, which traces current in circuit visually. Magnetic field is oriented - so that the charged coil remembers the direction of the original current, which created the flux.

You're pointing to situation, when the state of circuit also changes during collapse of circuit, for example during disconnecting the already energized coil from circuit - but this is special case. In steady state conditions of coil permanently connected into a circuit without active elements (diode, etc.) and similar exceptions the current following the collapse of magnetic field around coil will always have the opposite polarity, than the current, which created this field.

In hydrodynamic analogy the inductance of coil corresponds the behavior of hose with elastic walls. The introduction of current (i.e. hydrodynamic flow) leads to formation of  pressure drop due to inertia of fluid inside the hose. This pressure difference expands the hose a bit, so it accumulates the energy into itself. Once the pressure gets released at one end, then the accumulated fluid becomes ejected from hose in opposite direction. This model looks stupid, but it can illustrate even complex phenomena, like the skin-effect, which occurs in conductors during fast changes of flow direction. Because of inertia of fluid in the bulk of hose, the hose is forced to expand and collapse repeatedly so that the flow concentrates at the thin surface layer of hose only - and the interior of hose doesn't move.


Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #179 on: March 28, 2017, 04:41:54 PM »
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I know of no one that has actually worked in electronics that believes the current reverses when a coil discharges.
Actually you're the very first person, who I know he believes in opposite... :-) For example the very existence of oscillations within resonance circuits illustrates, that the current reverses during collapse of magnetic field within coil (the capacitor and coils charge and discharge mutually during it). How did you got into the opposite?

Edit: From Quora link above given it seems, it's because of semantic fuzziness in application of the back electromotive force.  This force always acts in the opposite direction to the existing current, as its name ("BACK") implies. I.e. it decreases the existing current while the existing current still runs in the original direction. Once the original current doesn't change, then the inductor doesn't actually discharge, because it's magnetic field didn't collapse yet. Now it just depends, which current do you actually have on mind, when you talk  about collapsing field within coil: the original one - or this new one, induced with change of collapsing magnetic field.

At any case, once you believe, that the behavior of pancake bifilar coil doesn't actually differ from normal inductor, then the discussion of this semantic isn't interesting for me. What is interesting for me is the explanation of the role of bifilar coils in overunity circuits. And such an explanation must differ from description of normal solenoid coil, which is  behaving in classical way with respect to energy conservation law. Normal coil conserves the energy of magnetic field induced in it and it returns it back - but it never returns more than input. Once the bifilar coil returns more, it just means we missed some important piece in description of its electromagnetic field.

 

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