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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 287602 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1380 on: May 04, 2017, 10:45:05 AM »
Well first up,i must say i find the !poll! quite demeaning,

Ok,time to be honest.

After reading many pages back on this thread,and also watching things unfold as the thread went on,what i see here is people learning which buttons to push,to get MH all fired up.

Second-it would seem that those that have a problem with MH,are the very same that cannot answer MH's one simple question--what is so special about the BPC ?

As i said many weeks ago,the only thing i have found so far,is that the BPC has a lower resonant  frequency to that of the single wound PC.
Every other thing the BPC show's,is apparent in any other coil arrangement/configuration,in the bifilar winding style--E.G,a standard solenoid coil.

As some of you here would know,MH and myself have had !our! days,but regardless,the respect still stand's. He is one of the few here,that has helped me get to where i am today.

So,sorry to say guy's,but as far as i can see,MHs questions are legitimate,and just because you have now answer as to what makes the BPC so special,dosnt give you the right to go on the offensive,and say MH has no idea what he is talking about.

Yes-i am finding some weird and wonderful things with my BPC setup,but those weird and wonderful things exist in all types of coil,of the bifilar winding type.

So,instead of arguing with one another over whether or not the BPC is special,hit your bench,and find what exactly is special about it.

The truth is,as soon as some see the name Tesla associated with something,it is automatically special--only due to people's mis-understanding about what the actual device was intended for.


Anyway-on with the COP>1 research.


Brad


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1381 on: May 04, 2017, 10:58:56 AM »
Yep, I totally agree with that , Brad.


On your schematic you left out an important part of the Partzman circuit. I've added it to the diagram below.

It is also important to realize that with ground-isolated FG Black leads and scopes that are "floating", that is without having chassis "ground" connected to Earth ground through the mains cord ground pin, the FG's "black" lead isn't pinned to Ground potential as some schematics might imply. We are using symmetrical AC sine wave stimulation, so the floating "black" FG lead's voltage goes positive and negative wrt the "zero" voltage level, just as the FG's "red" lead does but opposite in phase, instead of being pinned to Earth ground as is the case with more conventional hookups. If the "ground" point is connected to a scope probe reference of a normally grounded scope, this is no longer true and the FG "black" output stays pinned to true Earth ground potential. Except of course if the scope is something like Russ Gries's Tek TDS2024b which has isolated channel references.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1382 on: May 04, 2017, 12:03:40 PM »
Yep, I totally agree with that , Brad.


On your schematic you left out an important part of the Partzman circuit. I've added it to the diagram below.

It is also important to realize that with ground-isolated FG Black leads and scopes that are "floating", that is without having chassis "ground" connected to Earth ground through the mains cord ground pin, the FG's "black" lead isn't pinned to Ground potential as some schematics might imply. We are using symmetrical AC sine wave stimulation, so the floating "black" FG lead's voltage goes positive and negative wrt the "zero" voltage level, just as the FG's "red" lead does but opposite in phase, instead of being pinned to Earth ground as is the case with more conventional hookups. If the "ground" point is connected to a scope probe reference of a normally grounded scope, this is no longer true and the FG "black" output stays pinned to true Earth ground potential. Except of course if the scope is something like Russ Gries's Tek TDS2024b which has isolated channel references.

Ah yes-sorry,forgot that in both actually.
Have amended it once again.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1382 on: May 04, 2017, 12:03:40 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1383 on: May 04, 2017, 12:45:15 PM »
Persons like MH sometimes forget what is education and respect to the next ,  and their behavior is a probe of what i say .
Whoever is not with him is against him.
There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner" because bites even their owner and friends .

Since first begin seems he never have any intention to help anyone but just refute some particular hate from some points and some particular persons like me.

We can also see that it seems that I was not the only one, that he refers  as "AGRESSOR" to his integrity,  Because in the course of this thread other people were accused of the same by MH .

This thread have already 98 pages but i will remember their very very  first post in this thread after i  answer Evostars:


"I looked at your three clips and you seem like a very nice person and you have lots of enthusiasm.  For you there is a base issue related to your investigations.  Do you try to pursue learning about conventional electronics, or do you ignore conventional electronics and only pursue learning about so-called "alternative" electronics?  Or do you try to pursue a mixture of the two?  That's your choice to make.

What I am noticing is that this forum is not a good learning environment and if you want to learn about conventional electronics you are probably going to have to pursue that path by yourself or with other people.  I am quite certain that many people that watched your clips that like "alternative" electronics but also have a reasonable understanding of conventional electronics were not helping you when they could have helped you.  They are not sharing good information with you because doing so would make them feel uncomfortable for some strange reason.

I am just going to make some comments from watching your clips the other night.

For starters, there is no such thing as single-wire energy transmission.  There is always an "invisible" AC-coupling to the ground plane for both your device under test and your signal source.  That's why you can get the capacitor to charge with one wire in your tests.  Why does the voltage get higher when you put your fingers on the capacitors?  The answer is that your fingers and body provide a more robust (higher capacitance) signal path to the ground plane allowing the AC signal source to add larger puffs of charge to the capacitor.  Larger pumping puffs of charge into the capacitor means that the capacitor reaches a higher quiescent voltage where the added puffs of charge are in balance with the reverse current leaking through the diodes.

When you place your two pancake coils together with North-North poles facing each other, how come you can barely observe any repulsion between the two pancake coils even through with your compass you can definitely detect the field for each individual coil?  The answer is based on geometry such that the divergence of the magnetic field produced by each coil in the close proximity of each coil is very low.  Very low divergence equals very low force.  A hypothetical zero divergence in the magnetic field for one, the other, or both coils would give you a zero repulsion force between the coils.

When your pancake coil is truly in a self-resonant mode, then by definition both the electric field between the turns of the coil and the magnetic field around the coil have to be oscillating back and forth.  So your conclusion there about a constant unchanging magnetic field around the exterior of the coil in "self resonance" is incorrect.  Why can you observe an apparent DC magnetic field around the "self resonating" coil with your compass?  It's because your signal driver circuit, even through it is exciting the coil with an AC signal, is presumably also driving the coil with a small DC component such that you can detect the DC field with the compass needle when you move it around the coil.  As a suggestion, you can make a small coil of say 20 turns about the diameter of your thumb and attach that to your scope probe to make an AC magnetic field "sniffer" to check the strength and orientation of the AC magnetic field around the pancake coils.

Resonance of a circuit and the self-resonance of a coil have specific meanings that must be understood and then measured properly to confirm that you are truly observing the phenomenon of resonance.  Just observing a peak voltage reading on your multimeter or on your scope waveform is not an instant "confirmation of resonance."  It will take you some time to develop a skill set to correctly determine when you are observing resonance.  Part of that exercise involves actually identifying the mechanism of the resonance and the components of the resonance.  In other words, about every two minutes in your clips you are proclaiming "resonance."  That is not the case, and these things have to be carefully determined and measured.

Now, some people are going to be upset that I made this posting.  I am trying to suggest to you that if you are interested in electronics and electronics experimentation there is a vast amount of knowledge out there.  It's up to you to determine what path you want to take.  And I am disappointed that many of the people following you that know better are not making any real effort to give you some good and useful information.  Many people have seen the types of things that you are doing dozens of times before.  They only want to throw the usual "alternative" electronics information at you.

I am not here to engage with you or try to teach you.  I just came here to shine some light on your round of experiments with your pancake coils and let you know that there are options.

Good luck in your experiments."


This is deplorable from someone that want help other persons and start in that way , after complaining after about other persons attack him . ..

But everybody deserve a second chance to change their behavior, and i am willing to forget some of the less nice comments in exchange for a more peaceful environment without verbal abuse.
 In this way I suggest that these episodes be put behind the back, in favor of other people who are not to blame for this type of behaviors.

Wish a nice day to everyone and good experiments to everyone include you MH

 

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1384 on: May 04, 2017, 01:01:57 PM »
Well first up,i must say i find the !poll! quite demeaning,

Ok,time to be honest.

After reading many pages back on this thread,and also watching things unfold as the thread went on,what i see here is people learning which buttons to push,to get MH all fired up.

Second-it would seem that those that have a problem with MH,are the very same that cannot answer MH's one simple question--what is so special about the BPC ?

As i said many weeks ago,the only thing i have found so far,is that the BPC has a lower resonant  frequency to that of the single wound PC.
Every other thing the BPC show's,is apparent in any other coil arrangement/configuration,in the bifilar winding style--E.G,a standard solenoid coil.

As some of you here would know,MH and myself have had !our! days,but regardless,the respect still stand's. He is one of the few here,that has helped me get to where i am today.

So,sorry to say guy's,but as far as i can see,MHs questions are legitimate,and just because you have now answer as to what makes the BPC so special,dosnt give you the right to go on the offensive,and say MH has no idea what he is talking about.

Yes-i am finding some weird and wonderful things with my BPC setup,but those weird and wonderful things exist in all types of coil,of the bifilar winding type.

So,instead of arguing with one another over whether or not the BPC is special,hit your bench,and find what exactly is special about it.

The truth is,as soon as some see the name Tesla associated with something,it is automatically special--only due to people's mis-understanding about what the actual device was intended for.


Anyway-on with the COP>1 research.


Brad

I removed the poll. I told myself if someone complains I would take it down, and you have.  Basically the complaint posts that I quoted earlier on him only go a few pages back. So the poll was to see what I or we should do about it if it had shown that we should or not. Im not playing king. Im not the only one that is tired of it.

Sure its fine to say that he has a legit question. How many times does it have to be repeated to any of us beyond this point?   Many readers are here to learn the answer to that question, so they dont have to read it again and again and again, and frankly I HAVE TAKEN NOTE OF THE QUESTION!!  Maybe some do know and are not saying. Well we are here to see if there is, no???. You can take the stand that so far all you have seen is.... Thats fine. But are we done yet???? ???

My previous post had shown quotes of 5 others here about what he posts towards others, and they are not diggin it. Neither am I.  But ya know what? Ill leave him alone. You deal with it. Im not going to reply to him nor touch his posts.  He is your puppy now. ;) Funny how it seems you guys post more at OUR than here. Why is that? I read it and I see zero conflict there. Its nicey nicey .  I understand completely ::) ;)



"So,sorry to say guy's,but as far as i can see,MHs questions are legitimate,and just because you have now answer as to what makes the BPC so special,dosnt give you the right to go on the offensive,and say MH has no idea what he is talking about."

See, you are at the wall and think thats it folks.   Let me ask you. Are you only continuing with this just to solidify the idea that that is all there is as you say above? Just wondering. What of his other questions? I 'think' you were saying earlier that whether you are trying other things like transformer action with various connection schemes, that you are still using bifi coils to do those tests. So is his harping that those test are not on topic legit? Should there be another thread because we are finished with this topic? maybe. But I bet ya, he will be there asking the same questions, that the thread is intended to answer with testing. So again, more pages of that. So Im cool with it all just being laid out here.

Is it fair that he tells Nelson he doesnt know anything about coils or transformers? Do you agree with him???  If he told me that Id have to throw some bricks back also.



"So,instead of arguing with one another over whether or not the BPC is special,hit your bench,and find what exactly is special about it."

Im joining the mhz club soon. Spending good money to be able to do so. I am a builder. I do the do.  And if that is your feelings about it then maybe you should get MH on that roll call before he is telling you that you have your resistors in the wrong place. ;) But, he wont do it. He will just daily ask what is the purpose of this thread beyond resonance of a pancake bifilar coil. And his questions are not even the bulk of what he posts. He will belittle others, oh in the nicest, happy way that can be, of course. ::) I and others do not need to be around all that nonsense in our lives. So what? We should go? ::) I suppose so.  To OUR we all go. Seems like a good option. Then MH can pull off one of his summaries to close the thread. Thats just the way it is.



"The truth is,as soon as some see the name Tesla associated with something,it is automatically special--only due to people's mis-understanding about what the actual device was intended for."

And what is your version of what this coil was intended for? Why would Tesla need coils to go into resonance? See Im not sure that Teslas actual claims(at the bottom end of the description, usually written a few times in a few slightly different ways to cover all bases) covers the intent of just getting a coil to be in resonance without having to add a cap to a normal coil. Otherwise it would have said so in the 'claim'. I believe Tesla, after how many patents, knows what the claim portion of a patent is intended for and I dont think that definition has changed since then.  So far, are you guys saying that your coils operate as the 'claim' is written?
Like if it is at resonance that the bifi coil is able to pass currents(from where) as though the inductance was neutralized, when at resonance the least current passes 'through' from the input!!! Does not make sense. Sorry.  Or help me understand if Im missing something here.


"Anyway-on with the COP>1 research."

But you said back a couple sentences that we now know what makes the coils so special, and Im guessing you are referring to that is the ability to use the coil as an LC without adding a cap to a normal coil.  If thats all there is then how are you getting COP>1?  Still not special beyond its resonant properties?  Doesnt sound right.  ???

He is all yours and anyone with complaints should address them to Brad from here on in. Im only here 'now' to look beyond what is already known from here on in, and that is what you are doing, I think? So please dont imply any finality beyond seeing the coil in resonance like a typical LC when in fact you are finding more every day beyond that question that is continually posed day in and out. ;)

Dont take it badly, Im just expressing my(and a few others here) view on it all. ;)

Mags


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1384 on: May 04, 2017, 01:01:57 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1385 on: May 04, 2017, 01:08:11 PM »
I am truly sorry this has gone on for so long.  But we all have the freedom to post anything we want until someone stops us.  I believe I have found what may be at the root of the problem with this discussion.  I also may be very wrong.  If so I apologize.  Please read the post above where Nelson quotes MH.  Do you really see anywhere in that post where MH attacks or puts down anyone?  All I see is him offering to help someone to learn more.

When Nelson first started posting here I made a post in support of what he was doing.  He attacked my post and told me I was wrong to post it.  I then realized he did not truly understand what I had posted.  I assume English is not his native language.  This language barrier has I feel contributed in a large part to the problems between MH and Nelson.

I have great respect for MH as I posted earlier.  I do feel he probably should have just dropped his disagreement with Nelson several pages back and just let it go.  To those of us with real electronics training it is obvious Nelson has some things to learn.  That is fine.  We all can still learn some things.  Let's please let all this go and get back to some real research.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1386 on: May 04, 2017, 01:24:32 PM »
I am truly sorry this has gone on for so long.  But we all have the freedom to post anything we want until someone stops us.  I believe I have found what may be at the root of the problem with this discussion.  I also may be very wrong.  If so I apologize.  Please read the post above where Nelson quotes MH.  Do you really see anywhere in that post where MH attacks or puts down anyone?  All I see is him offering to help someone to learn more.

When Nelson first started posting here I made a post in support of what he was doing.  He attacked my post and told me I was wrong to post it.  I then realized he did not truly understand what I had posted.  I assume English is not his native language.  This language barrier has I feel contributed in a large part to the problems between MH and Nelson.

I have great respect for MH as I posted earlier.  I do feel he probably should have just dropped his disagreement with Nelson several pages back and just let it go.  To those of us with real electronics training it is obvious Nelson has some things to learn.  That is fine.  We all can still learn some things.  Let's please let all this go and get back to some real research.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Carroll did i attacked you ? I really don't consider that a attack tell me where is the misunderstood or even a attack ?
This that you refer :

"Sorry Carrol but i really don't understand what you try say with pseudo science when you talk of ether . In the time that word  is "founded" There was not the same disinformation motivation that exists today or even to sell books, and is unquestionable and undeniable  the contribution by the father of the word aether Sir Oliver Lodge to science , and after used by Nikola Tesla too .
As I mentioned earlier, this forum is free and we all have different opinions, but the contribution of those same people I mentioned is undeniable even when Discredited and censored by some people like happens in out times and for sure will continue happen .
In that way i could say the time is the best judge.

Respectfully :

Nelson Rocha

Hi Nelson,

Yes I am aware of the proper use of the term "ether" but you have to admit the way it is misused today is not the way it was used by Tesla and others.

Carroll"


I think i only make a respectfully answer to you but its my opinion  but other persons could judge too .



Respectfully:

Nelson Rocha

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1386 on: May 04, 2017, 01:24:32 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1387 on: May 04, 2017, 01:33:34 PM »
Brad
I have one question
Partzman's work [MEI} evolves around Pancake coils
we have not even touched the later versions
Why is it an attack on MH to say
This is an ongoing investigation into Pancake coils ?

I have no Dog in the Tesla hunt
just the results

if there is an effect which holds true to the Claim {Nelson's and Partzman's]

how can we dismiss this ,without qualifying it?

especially when it may have merit [a unique feature for MEI investigations.

honestly ,there is much to learn here, and we don't know for certain if MEI [and Nelson work}  require some unique attribute of the Pancake coil to work.

I see no point demanding answers[MH Whats so special] until the testing is done.

I apologize in advance if
saying its an ongoing investigation is taken as an attack.
and that is at the brunt of this entire "attack"
Mh insisting on answers to questions which are under investigation.

and then Nelson gets defensive and its all run amuck




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1388 on: May 04, 2017, 01:38:52 PM »
I am truly sorry this has gone on for so long.  But we all have the freedom to post anything we want until someone stops us.  I believe I have found what may be at the root of the problem with this discussion.  I also may be very wrong.  If so I apologize.  Please read the post above where Nelson quotes MH.  Do you really see anywhere in that post where MH attacks or puts down anyone?  All I see is him offering to help someone to learn more.

When Nelson first started posting here I made a post in support of what he was doing.  He attacked my post and told me I was wrong to post it.  I then realized he did not truly understand what I had posted.  I assume English is not his native language.  This language barrier has I feel contributed in a large part to the problems between MH and Nelson.

I have great respect for MH as I posted earlier.  I do feel he probably should have just dropped his disagreement with Nelson several pages back and just let it go.  To those of us with real electronics training it is obvious Nelson has some things to learn.  That is fine.  We all can still learn some things.  Let's please let all this go and get back to some real research.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Exactly. This bears repeating. If NR is reacting defensively to statements like that from MH, it indicates that the statement has "hit a nerve", meaning that the truth is recognized ... and "truth hurts".

It does not justify attacking MH personally, calling him an ownerless biting dog, or any of the other attacks and insults from various people that MH (and I! and some others!) have suffered here.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1388 on: May 04, 2017, 01:38:52 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1389 on: May 04, 2017, 01:46:08 PM »
Brad
I have one question
Partzman's work [MEI} evolves around Pancake coils
we have not even touched the later versions
And yet many of the coil forms that Partzman has shown that produce the effect are not even remotely "pancake" coils
resembling the coil in Tesla's patent #512340.
And my own successful first attempt at reproducing his effect used a decidedly non-pancake, bifilar solenoid coil.
Quote
Why is it an attack on MH to say
This is an ongoing investigation into Pancake coils ?
It isn't. But it definitely IS a totally ad-hominem attack on MH to compare him to an ownerless biting dog.

Quote

I have no Dog in the Tesla hunt
just the results



Speaking of dogs... Maggie says "Woof!" which means something like "Forget that, take me for a walk dammit!"

Quote

if there is an effect which holds true to the Claim {Nelson's and Partzman's]

how can we dismiss this ,without qualifying it?

especially when it may have merit [a unique feature for MEI investigations

Now are we lumping NR's claim (which was what exactly?) in with Partzman's (which is _not yet_ a claim of actual OU performance, as I understand it)?

Or are we just generally saying their "claim" is that flat coils are special in some unspecified way?

Maggie has the right idea, I think.

Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1390 on: May 04, 2017, 01:51:32 PM »
we're saying
we don't really know yet.[if Pancakes are special in MEI work



But Maggie has a good idea....



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1390 on: May 04, 2017, 01:51:32 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1391 on: May 04, 2017, 01:51:40 PM »
Exactly. This bears repeating. If NR is reacting defensively to statements like that from MH, it indicates that the statement has "hit a nerve", meaning that the truth is recognized ... and "truth hurts".

It does not justify attacking MH personally, calling him an ownerless biting dog, or any of the other attacks and insults from various people that MH (and I! and some others!) have suffered here.

I did not attack anyone i just say :"There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner"
Did you want that i explain to you what means ?

That is calling dog to anyone ?  is a proverb . Are so difficulty understand that ? Is the language barrier that are make fog when you read ?
People have eyes to read clear all the posts .
And What truth hurts me ?    are you referring to what objectively? Is that your argument to make their defense?
How i see i'm a visceral aggressor :) come on stop joking .

cheers

Nelson Rocha




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1392 on: May 04, 2017, 01:53:34 PM »
Ether? Disinformation and censorship against the idea of "ether", a term that was coined by a great scientist and even used by Tesla?

What about "phlogiston" then? Another term coined by a great scientist, accepted as referring to something real by other great scientists ... but was eventually discarded when better ideas and descriptions of phenomena came along. Nobody today talks about phlogiston.

(By the way I prefer the spelling 'aether' , which distinguishes it from the chemical diethyl ether, a volatile liquid sometimes used for anaesthesia, solvents and engine starting fluid.)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1393 on: May 04, 2017, 01:58:21 PM »
I did not attack anyone i just say :"There is a proverb that says people like him are like  "dogs that do not know the owner"
Did you want that i explain to you what means ?



If you don't see that as an attack, there is something seriously wrong here. Perhaps it is a language problem or a cultural divide, but it is definitely a hurtful statement. You can nitpick about semantics, saying "there is a proverb that says" is somehow different from saying directly "Mile High is like an ownerless dog"... but it isn't really different at all in its hurtfulness.

Quote
That is calling dog to anyone ?  is a proverb . Are so difficulty understand that ? Is the language barrier that are make fog when you read ?
People have eyes to read clear all the posts .
And What truth hurts me ?    are you referring to what objectively? Is that your argument to make their defense?
How i see i'm a visceral aggressor :) come on stop joking .

cheers

Nelson Rocha

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1394 on: May 04, 2017, 02:00:09 PM »
Ether? Disinformation and censorship against the idea of "ether", a term that was coined by a great scientist and even used by Tesla?

What about "phlogiston" then? Another term coined by a great scientist, accepted as referring to something real by other great scientists ... but was eventually discarded when better ideas and descriptions of phenomena came along. Nobody today talks about phlogiston.

(By the way I prefer the spelling 'aether' , which distinguishes it from the chemical diethyl ether, a volatile liquid sometimes used for anaesthesia, solvents and engine starting fluid.)

Sometimes you have nice way to use your sarcasm approach . The question is : Did i attack Carrol when i give my opinion about he consider pseudo science when someone talk of ether ?
You consider my answer a attack ? lol  I even shared with him a book by Oliver Lodge about this theme.
What is wrong with that ?

cheers

Nelson Rocha

 

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