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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 213507 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1365 on: May 04, 2017, 07:11:46 AM »
I stand by what I say, period.

Apparently there is no discussion of the Tesla pancake coil because nobody has anything new to say.

You need to go back to Club Med for refresher training.  You are noise on this thread.

Have you not been reading what i have been posting for the last week,or the videos i have been posting as well?

While i have dabbled in partsmans circuit,i have been doing most of my work on the BPC.
If you have a good look at partsman circuit,you will see that it is the same as mine,but where as the R2 resistor is removed from the L1 end,and placed across the L2 coil-that is the only difference

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1366 on: May 04, 2017, 07:16:10 AM »
Maybe a little clarification is needed:

The Tesla patent 512340 is titled: Coil for Electromagnets

It has many years later acquired the terms "pancake coil" or "bifilar pancake coil"

These terms are not used in the patent.

While this thread and the thread at OUR.com are respectively:

"The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency"

and

Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils

In actuality the testing of late in both threads is for a "transformer" with one input leg floating. While it shares similarities in construction, it is wired differently than the Tesla device as the continuous connection is broken, changing it from a singular "coil"
to a pair of "coils" or coupled inductors, otherwise known as a "transformer".

In essence it being now tested as a three terminal device unlike the Tesla patent, yet still may retain some of the supposed virtues of high interwinding capacitance and maximum voltage differences between turns, and neutralization of self inductance, although how effective those virtues were are yet to be determined due to the breaking of the connection, thus separating the singular "coil" into two "coils" that are now coupled capacitively and inductively,
 therefore a "transformer".

One might try to argue that it is not a transformer since it does not have four connections, however the floating input leg is capacitively coupled to the secondary, so it is sort of an "autotransformer" which by definition has a minimum of three connections.

cheeky enough?  :D

Regards

P.S. Has anyone ever had real Vermont AAA Maple Syrup with theirs?

Well I can say that I think Tesla had drawn up the coil in pancake style more to better understand the connections between the 2 windings and the relationship between the 2 windings capacitance, as he said the coils could be wound in any styles known for the same results.  Maybe the things he declared and claimed were to cover his ownership to the use of the ability described, without actually divulging the a real practical use. Its possible and Im sure done many times before. Just like many patents when we look at them and try to build them and we dont get positive results, it is very likely they are covering their butts on the brunt of the idea while leaving out what really makes it special. And its probably important to do so in some cases where like today, some in China may see it and make copies and dont care. Like the Iphone back when, etc.  If I remember the Iphone fakes were not as special as the real deal. ;)

On the 3 legged transformer, has anyone tried to reverse the end of the pri coil to see if there is a difference in operation? That may bring out whether it is inductive, or not and just capacitance between the pri and sec.

Anyway I think its good to run this thing through the ringer in any way or fashion to see what may come of it. There is more to do.

Mags

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1367 on: May 04, 2017, 07:21:37 AM »
Have you not been reading what i have been posting for the last week,or the videos i have been posting as well?

Brad

You are mainly investigating Partzman's transformer, right?  I am talking about an investigation into the coil itself.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1367 on: May 04, 2017, 07:21:37 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1368 on: May 04, 2017, 07:34:46 AM »
You are mainly investigating Partzman's transformer, right?  I am talking about an investigation into the coil itself.

I added to my previouse post.

I have been working mainly on the BPC,and quite a bit.

Im at work ATM, so will post more detail for you when i get home.

BTW-the pole is looking good for you MH.

Brad

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1369 on: May 04, 2017, 07:43:05 AM »
Mags said,
Quote
Well I can say that I think Tesla had drawn up the coil in pancake style more to better understand the connections between the 2 windings and the relationship between the 2 windings capacitance, as he said the coils could be wound in any styles known for the same results. (snip)

Yes, I think so too. People often quote Tesla's patent #512340 and yet they completely ignore the _facts_ that Tesla acknowledged that flat coils are not new, that he said that "any" and "every" coil can be made to have reactance cancellation, and that Tesla himself rarely if ever actually used the bifilar series-connected winding scheme in later patents and projects.

Now we have comparison reports from several sources, even some who formerly claimed unique properties, that there is no difference when the Tesla Bifilar Flat winding compared to flat monofilar coils in DC resistance, inductance, AC magnetic field, DC magnetic field, and pulsed DC magnetic fields. The _only_ "special" property of the Tesla Bifilar winding, whether in flat or solenoidal coils, is that of reduced resonant frequency due to the increased interturn capacitance of a _correctly wound_ TBF coil. Concomitant with this is the increased energy storage on a cycle-by-cycle basis of the TBF winding. However in any practical coil this increased energy storage (and release, per cycle!) is much smaller than the numbers Tesla used as an extreme example in his patent. 

The problems with "experiments" (which are really demonstrations and not true experiments) that purport to show some superiority of the flat coil, whether serially connected bifilar or not, is that they do not perform proper comparisons with, say, solenoidal coils, cored coils, etc. so _causality_ cannot be assigned to the "flat" or "TBF" or other properties that are alleged to be responsible for any demonstrated effects.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1369 on: May 04, 2017, 07:43:05 AM »
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Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1370 on: May 04, 2017, 07:53:18 AM »
Well I don't know about the rest of you all, but I'm going to make a self-running
electrical generator come hell or high water.      8)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1371 on: May 04, 2017, 07:54:28 AM »
you have threatened violent acts on him, you have used Vulgarity and street talk and you also used ethnic Slurs against him

lol  Saying someone is "Latin" is an "ethnic slur?"  There are lurkers that must be laughing out loud and it just shows how much you have completely lost it.  It's embarrassing to read you.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1371 on: May 04, 2017, 07:54:28 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1372 on: May 04, 2017, 07:55:56 AM »
Well
Nelson made a claim ,thats what started this investigation
his claim relates to Pancake coils, he says there special.

MileHigh will now not allow this to be presented in a transformer investigation, he says that's not applicable to his question

If The Pancake coils cause a black hole to open up ...
if the word Transformer is used [or applied]

No good
gotta be just the coil or he's crying foul

yes that is actually where this has gone ....

whether or not other coils will work[or nothing works]


he has reworded his claim to remove Partzmans work from the definition [Nelsons too I suppose]

Whats so special about Pancake coils?

just sitting there on the table...
Just the coils??
HUH??

very confusing indeed sort of like the pole above with 5 members voting and ten votes cast

 ;D

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1373 on: May 04, 2017, 08:02:02 AM »
I think what is going on here is Miles hates the fact that we're even discussing this, and even more so that we're investigating a claim from Nelson

a claim which seems to have Much merit
pancake coils are special ,and now we get a chance to investigate Partzman's MEI work

 and then MH apparently took over the thread which he said was fair game
because Evo left here due to bad behavior and disrespect of his topic

I only stepped in because he was calling Nelson an attacker ,intimating he was in some violation of TOS

sad stuff to read tho [moderatings and such

I will just comment on this one to remind people that I first reproduced Partzman's observations of COP>1 _measurements_
using a Bifilar _solenoid_ coil
(or if you prefer, air core transformer) , not a "special" pancake coil.

So... we are back to the original problem posed by MH. This is a legitimate and important question and should be a seed for discussion, not personal attacks and innuendo. What is "special" about the Tesla Bifilar-wound, serially connected pancake coil? Other than its lower resonant frequency and energy storage, both due to increased interturn capacitance in a correctly constructed coil.... which also apply to solenoidal coils ... to my knowledge nothing "special" has been conclusively shown, even by Nelson's demonstrations. (Let's not forget that in Tesla's time "high frequency" applied to anything much over 1 MHz and it was strongly to his advantage to be able to reduce the required frequency in his experiments.)

Several myths have been soundly debunked along the way, such as the howler of TheOldScientist's still unretracted video claiming half the DC resistance of the TBF winding compared to monofilar winding with the same total length of wire, as well as various claims from others about inductance,  AC and DC and pulsed DC magnetic fields and so on. 

This is not to say that flat coils have no advantages in _any_ cases. Clearly a flat coil makes for a better induction cooking hob. There are probably many other applications where a flat coil's magnetic field distribution may be advantageous for particular applications -- perhaps even for junkyard scrap-lifting or steelyard plate-lifting electromagnets. This is a matter of geometry, not electrical "magic".

If you want to see some real "magic" coils, take apart an old CRT monitor sometime. The horizontal deflection yoke coils put the lie to claims that "conventional science" doesn't understand magnetic fields and how to produce and manipulate them to achieve precise results.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1373 on: May 04, 2017, 08:02:02 AM »
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Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1374 on: May 04, 2017, 08:02:09 AM »
just sitting there on the table...
Just the coils??
HUH??

I'm not showing the rest.  You can all see it when it's well past turning back to the
good ol' days.

As for MH...

"Eagles listen not to the chirping of sparrows."

Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1375 on: May 04, 2017, 08:09:24 AM »
Good night Ya'll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1375 on: May 04, 2017, 08:09:24 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1376 on: May 04, 2017, 08:11:39 AM »


very confusing indeed sort of like the pole above with 5 members voting and ten votes cast

 ;D

I allowed 2 choices per voter so they can express beyond just one choice, so it looks like some are choosing that ability.  I dont think it means you can vote 2 times for the same choice of answer.

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1377 on: May 04, 2017, 08:59:34 AM »
Well I don't know about the rest of you all, but I'm going to make a self-running
electrical generator come hell or high water.      8)

Good for you. It's too bad though, that the wire you have selected is plastic-insulated so that the conductors will be so far apart that any distributed capacitance will be small, and the coil itself will be relatively large for the length of wire it has in it, which also reduces its self-inductance.

To maximize distributed capacitance and self inductance the conductors need to be as close together as possible, hence the use of enamelled magnet wire is preferred if maximizing those parameters is important. As I believe it is, to lower the frequencies of interest and to make any "special" effects strong enough to rise above the noise floor.

YMMV of course, so good luck and don't forget to report your positive _and negative_ results, if any.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1378 on: May 04, 2017, 09:48:17 AM »
Good for you. It's too bad though, that the wire you have selected is plastic-insulated so that the conductors will be so far apart that any distributed capacitance will be small, and the coil itself will be relatively large for the length of wire it has in it, which also reduces its self-inductance.

To maximize distributed capacitance and self inductance the conductors need to be as close together as possible, hence the use of enamelled magnet wire is preferred if maximizing those parameters is important. As I believe it is, to lower the frequencies of interest and to make any "special" effects strong enough to rise above the noise floor.

YMMV of course, so good luck and don't forget to report your positive _and negative_ results, if any.

If he takes 2 rolls, 1 for each winding, then he can parallel the individual wires at the ends and if wound nice and tight, the wire bumps can interlock bringing more conductors in proximity to each other. It will increase capacitance. Would that increase the inductance with more than 1 conductor in parallel like that?

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1379 on: May 04, 2017, 10:21:25 AM »
Ok,for those that want to know the difference between the BPC circuit i am experimenting with,and Partsman's circuit--see below.

If you take the point 1 of R2,and swing it around,and place it at point 2,you have Partsman's DUT circuit--simple.


Brad

 

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