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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 288857 times)

Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1230 on: April 29, 2017, 02:42:15 PM »
Russ Gries did this test as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline web000x

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1231 on: April 29, 2017, 04:10:33 PM »
Russ Gries did this test as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns


I'm convinced that this is just a simple parallel LC network as seen by the source.  Look at that video where the input current dips to its minimum when it is 90 degrees out of phase with the current in the center of the coil.  This would suggest that XC and XL are equal and that a resonance condition has been met.  Then as the frequency is increase, the phase shift of the current in R1 vs R2 is greater than 90 degrees, also another sign of parallel resonance.  See image for simplified visual.


Dave
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 10:24:53 PM by web000x »

Offline web000x

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1232 on: April 29, 2017, 07:47:04 PM »
Expanding on the hopothesis that this is a parallel LC phenomena, it would seem that connecting the bifilar coil in series conjunction would create a high impedance to the source at resonance as indicated by some of the experiments done here by forum members.  Here is that Tesla quote again..


Quote
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small.



Tesla said a current of a certain potential and frequency to "pass through it", not circulate around it.  It sure sounds to me like he is not talking about a parallel resonance circuit....    I wonder if this is why Erfinder is telling us to utilize the bifilar coils with one winding galvanically isolated from the power winding.  Things to think about..

Dave

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1232 on: April 29, 2017, 07:47:04 PM »
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Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1233 on: April 29, 2017, 09:29:35 PM »
Quote from: Erfinder
Who didn't see this coming.......


There is no coming back from this.....

You have a point, but I'll try anyway.



Attached is somewhat of a refresher.

Pay attention to the term "antiresonance" in regards to resistors placed in certain
locations.  If they can have that effect, then imagine what one might do with
resistors you can switch-in or switch-out at certain points within the cycle.

Once you have mastered that, then replace the switchable resistors with
actual passive LCRs that do the switching automatically.

Off to the races we go...

Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1234 on: April 29, 2017, 10:31:00 PM »
Dissipation is waste......we cannot sugar coat that...

True, true.

"antiresonance" is just a fancy twist on a concept most are still having nightmares about and are trying desperately to get away from..... Do not oppose, opposition to change "is" the underlying fundamental mechanism....  transform opposition via the proper impedance into augmentation......or not...

That's kind of what I was getting at in the name of parametric oscillation.  At all points within
the cycle of an LC, push away the opposition by whatever means you have at your disposal.
LC within an LC would be the most preferred way, but active components could be used as
a stepping stone until the concept is better understood.  Augmentation is a good word here.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1234 on: April 29, 2017, 10:31:00 PM »
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Offline luc2010

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1235 on: April 30, 2017, 01:50:25 AM »
Hello!!

I need your help?? have a Sirius problem? Please

i can charge a capacitor 330 MICRO Farad to 188 volt for free!! using 220 vac and 50 hz only!!

is that the main lesson from tesla ozone patent?

Thanks and Regards
luc2010

Offline luc2010

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1236 on: April 30, 2017, 02:22:59 AM »
according to K meyel
faraday unipolar induction law applies on that case,  E = v*b
the pointer of E and V must not point in the same direction, as in the case of ''normal'' coils.
...

the secret is that the secondery winding and the capacitor are to be seen as one unit, one system!!

Now to study tesla 177 pat and 178
in 178 pat, R refer to what?

thanks and regards
luc2010

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1236 on: April 30, 2017, 02:22:59 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1237 on: April 30, 2017, 04:00:54 AM »

Who didn't see this coming.......


There is no coming back from this.....

Yes
Unfortunately Russ got it wrong,as he was measuring a voltage drop across two resistor's,in which case power factor and phase relationship plays no part in calculating power dissipated by the two resistors.
Ohms law holds,and both the current through,and power dissipated by the resistors,is calculated using ohms law.

Phase relationship and power factor only come into play,when the inductors are included.


Brad

Offline padova

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1238 on: April 30, 2017, 04:03:42 AM »
Russ Gries did this test as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDwOwfIHns

I wasn't get it right away. Somehow I assumed it was a positive signal from the FG, but obviously it was AC current,
so it was apparent power . Sometimes it is easy to fall into some traps. :)

Thanks to tinman  for experiment, it points to some directions.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1238 on: April 30, 2017, 04:03:42 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1239 on: April 30, 2017, 04:09:58 AM »
Hello!!

I need your help?? have a Sirius problem? Please

i can charge a capacitor 330 MICRO Farad to 188 volt for free!! using 220 vac and 50 hz only!!

is that the main lesson from tesla ozone patent?

Thanks and Regards
luc2010

That's a "sirius" problem all right, because your 220 VAC is the RMS value, and you should be able to charge your capacitor to very near the Peak value of the AC supply which would be about 310 V.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1240 on: April 30, 2017, 04:22:27 AM »
Yes
Unfortunately Russ got it wrong,as he was measuring a voltage drop across two resistor's,in which case power factor and phase relationship plays no part in calculating power dissipated by the two resistors.
Ohms law holds,and both the current through,and power dissipated by the resistors,is calculated using ohms law.

Phase relationship and power factor only come into play,when the inductors are included.


Brad

Yep. I cringe when I see some people misusing all that great test equipment and making the wrong interpretations of data due to their incorrect assumptions. Within purely dissipative elements like "ideal" resistors, you don't even need to consider phase between voltage and current at all, the power dissipated can be simply calculated by P=I2R or equivalently P=V2/R just using the RMS values of voltage drop OR current.
 
However for exactness one should include some small inductance in the "model" of resistors, as the wiring between components, the wire of the scope probe's reference lead, and the "real" resistors themselves always include some inductance. But in the present case these small inductances have only little effect on the outcome.

What _does_ affect the outcome in this case is the fact that the coil is acting like a Transmission Line, with distributed inductance and capacitance, that result in nodes and peaks of standing waves and reinforcement and nulling due to reflections along the coil.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1240 on: April 30, 2017, 04:22:27 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1241 on: April 30, 2017, 04:24:36 AM »
That's a "sirius" problem all right, because your 220 VAC is the RMS value, and you should be able to charge your capacitor to very near the Peak value of the AC supply which would be about 310 V.

Yes
Sirius  ;D

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1242 on: April 30, 2017, 04:37:22 AM »
I wasn't get it right away. Somehow I assumed it was a positive signal from the FG, but obviously it was AC current,
so it was apparent power . Sometimes it is easy to fall into some traps. :)

Thanks to tinman  for experiment, it points to some directions.

It is important to realize that results of this kind can be obtained with totally positive signals, square pulses or sine waves with  even 120 percent positive offset (or negative offset), and in any inductive coil, whether flat Tesla Bifilar winding or round solenoid single-winding, as long as the stimulation is of such frequency so as to be able to see the Transmission Line characteristics of the coil. Of course it helps immensely if the coil in question has a lot of distributed capacitance along with its distributed inductance, and it is here that the Tesla Bifilar winding (whether flat or solenoid) makes the difference, by making these phenomena easy to see with ordinary equipment and ordinary lab techniques.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1243 on: April 30, 2017, 04:48:54 AM »
My response video to Russ's response video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHqs72bYyUw

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1244 on: April 30, 2017, 05:20:04 AM »
By using a TBF coil with more turns he could have brought the frequency range of interest down to within the range of his current probes. And as we know, as I have demonstrated,  you don't need a pancake coil to show the effect, it works just fine with TBF solenoid coils too, which are _much_ easier to wind. And it even works with monofilar coils, but less strongly since they have less distributed capacitance.

Russ demonstrated the phase shift which we all know is there and which will occur in _any_ inductive coil whether flat, solenoidal, Tesla bifilar, or monofilar wound.
It's too bad he didn't also demonstrate the power analysis software of his scope. He probably needed the current probes active and deskewed to be able to do that.

So the appropriate way to test this circuit is to measure the Vdrop across each resistor separately, without making groundloops by misconnecting the voltage probe references. In fact I do this using the same scope channel and probe, by moving the probe from resistor to resistor, so as to be absolutely sure not to introduce ground loops (and also I know for a fact that my FG's outputs are isolated from ground; is Russ's FG also isolated in this way? Many aren't.) This will give the actual power dissipated in the resistors, and no correction for phase need be applied in this purely resistive case.  Then one measures the power relationships in the inductive portions separately, and using the Phase Shift between voltage and current in the inductors themselves, one can calculate the Real power, Reactive Power, and Apparent Power in those mostly non-dissipative inductors. Here is where Russ's Power Analysis software in his scope would come in handy.
 

 

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