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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 213463 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1185 on: April 25, 2017, 06:36:15 AM »
Read Tesla's patent again.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets

He doesn't say that the electrical potential generated is 250,000 times greater in the BFC, he says the energy stored is 250,000 times greater than that stored in a SWC, (assuming a 50V potential between adjacent windings in the BFC). Big difference.

Was a quote from syncro, I didnt notice the issue at the time. Thanks for the correction


Mags

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1186 on: April 25, 2017, 06:39:03 AM »
MH says there is nothing more to try. Nothing. ER says there is.  MH puts together examples using false data, where the outcome always leans even more in his favor . Er has not provided falsities that anyone can point out so far. I have found the ER will let you know if you are going in the right direction, just that you have to ask the right questions. Im ok with that. If it all turns out bunk then you can say otherwise. Mh will daily press that there are no more directions to go. Like is that warming on you here?? You removed ERs post, but mh gets to run nelson off and just puke on every new thought that arrives. Let me ask you. Just because ER does not tell you much and considering what you have seen of his vids, would you absolutely agree with MH that he does not know how a coil works??? if so, you are scaring me now. Is the world flat? Does the earth rotate around the sun?? If not, got proof?  Well back when these discoveries, earth ball, sun is the center of solar system, there were those that argued it based on the tight box surrounding them, not an open mind to new possibilities

Not here to discuss the coil, just here to defend myself.

-  I never said there is "nothing to try" or "no more directions to go" - don't put words in my mouth.

-  I did not do an example using "false data," I used exemplary data, and there is a huge difference.  What the hell does "my favour" mean?  If you put the correct data for Conrad's coil resistance into the analysis, the amount of stored energy in the self-resonance of the coil is still minuscule relative to the continuous power burn to sustain the self-resonance.  Is this fact not sinking into your head?

-  Why don't you make your own pancake coil and with the proper resistance value do the analysis yourself?  Guess what you are going to find?  You are going to find that the results are about the same:  huge continuous power burn relative to the stored energy.  Aren't you curious about this, you are on a forum discussing energy?

-  I did NOT "run Nelson off," don't give me more of your crap.  I told Nelson the truth when I was discussing various technical issues with him.  Is speaking the truth not acceptable to you?  Don't tell me the technical level on this forum is so low that you still get excited on seeing a bloody light bulb being lit after 7+ years.

-  "Puke on every new thought?"  Only in your unhealthily obsessed mind.  This has to stop.

-  Re:  Understand how a coil works?  Golly gee, you actually do have to understand how a coil works.  Some dude named "BeSharper" wants to join a garage band and play the guitar.  Do you think he can just show up and mangle his fingers on the fret board and strum with a pick without even knowing what a chord is or what a musical key is or what a 4:4 beat is?  The other dudes in the garage band will kick BeSharper's ass out the door in no time.  It's called life.  BeSharper can cry out, "But I am an undiscovered musical genius and I don't have to understand music!" until he is blue in the face or he can roll up his shirtsleeves and learn about music and how to play music (or he can do nothing and sing backup vocals for Yoko Ono instead).  Is this R E S O N A T I N G with you?

You stop bad-mouthing me and go work with your coils.  Your sick obsession about me has to stop or go see a psychiatrist.

Back to talking about pancake coils.  Hopefully most of you understand how a coil actually works on a thread discussing the inner workings of coils.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1187 on: April 25, 2017, 07:34:26 AM »
Ok-let's cut through the BS,and carry out some side by side test's between a BPC,and a single wound coil-of the same physical size,same size wire,and same length of wire.

My first test was to take a close look at a quick pulse sent through each coil.
I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.
I am running at a frequency of 20KHz,and this allows the coils to ring down to a stop before the coil is hit with the next pulse.
Duty cycle is a mere 1%--so a very quick pulse.

I read in one of the replies here,that the BPC has no inductive kickback.
Well,we just found that to be incorrect with this simple test.

Looking at the two scope shot's below,we can clearly see the inductive kickback spike,followed by a small forward spike of larger amplitude,but shorter duration-the beginning of the ringdown of each coil.
We also see(as i stated before)that the BPC has i lower resonant frequency.
But as we look at the induced voltage,and the inductive kickback,we see there is no difference between the two coils.

We can see from the scope shot's,that both coils were subject to an identical input pulse,at the same frequency,where the voltage across both coils reached 8.5v during the on time.
We can see that the inductive kickback from both coils is also exactly the same.

So,we have eliminated one myth associated with the BPC-that being that the BPC has no inductive kickback,when in fact it is identical to the single wound coil.

Next test is the electromagnetic field strength of each coil,for a given P/in.


Brad
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 01:12:19 PM by tinman »

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1187 on: April 25, 2017, 07:34:26 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1188 on: April 25, 2017, 12:38:37 PM »
Ok,the second test is to see which of the two coils is better at inducing a secondary coil.
So a P/in for P/out test.

The secondary coil is the secondary from a MOT,where i am using 1 half of the windings-->coil is split into two sets of windings--from other projects.
The MOT has a 680 ohm resistor across it as a load.

First,with a set V/RMS of 1.6v across the BPC,the frequency was raised until maximum V amplitude was achieved across the 680 ohm resistor on the secondary coil(the MOT coil),by doing a sweep from 500HTz to 2MHz.
Once maximum output frequency was found,we then placed the scope across the 2.2 ohm CVR on the BPC,and the second channel to read the voltage across the coils-so as we could calculate P/in.

The very same test was done for the single wound coil.

So here are the results.

BPC

P/in=1.6v @ 216mV/RMS over the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 157.088mW
Power dissipated by CVR=21.207mW

P/out=1.56VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out=3.578mW
 

Single wound coil

P/in=1.6VRMS @ 208mV across the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 151.264mW
Power dissipated by CVR=19.66mW

P/out=1.68VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out= 4.150mW

So,from this test,it would seem that the single wound coil out-performs the BPC in electromagnetic induction-or energy transfer to another coil.


Brad

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1189 on: April 25, 2017, 02:40:23 PM »
Read Tesla's patent again.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets

He doesn't say that the electrical potential generated is 250,000 times greater in the BFC, he says the energy stored is 250,000 times greater than that stored in a SWC, (assuming a 50V potential between adjacent windings in the BFC). Big difference.

@hoptoad,

"The SI unit of electric potential is the volt".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1189 on: April 25, 2017, 02:40:23 PM »
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Offline forest

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1190 on: April 25, 2017, 03:16:55 PM »
how to convert this 2500 times energy stored into magnetic field  ?
that's what was removed from the patent

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1191 on: April 25, 2017, 07:06:03 PM »
Ok-let's cut through the BS,and carry out some side by side test's between a BPC,and a single wound coil-of the same physical size,same size wire,and same length of wire.

My first test was to take a close look at a quick pulse sent through each coil.
I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.
I am running at a frequency of 20KHz,and this allows the coils to ring down to a stop before the coil is hit with the next pulse.
Duty cycle is a mere 1%--so a very quick pulse.

I read in one of the replies here,that the BPC has no inductive kickback.
Well,we just found that to be incorrect with this simple test.

Looking at the two scope shot's below,we can clearly see the inductive kickback spike,followed by a small forward spike of larger amplitude,but shorter duration-the beginning of the ringdown of each coil.
We also see(as i stated before)that the BPC has i lower resonant frequency.
But as we look at the induced voltage,and the inductive kickback,we see there is no difference between the two coils.

We can see from the scope shot's,that both coils were subject to an identical input pulse,at the same frequency,where the voltage across both coils reached 8.5v during the on time.
We can see that the inductive kickback from both coils is also exactly the same.

So,we have eliminated one myth associated with the BPC-that being that the BPC has no inductive kickback,when in fact it is identical to the single wound coil.

Next test is the electromagnetic field strength of each coil,for a given P/in.


Brad

Hey brad

In your scope shots, it looks as if something is altering the ring of the oscillation when the trace gets near the neg peaks. If what you say and show is just that first pos 1% duty input(circled in blue), and after that it lets go, that first neg part of the cycle should be more than the peak of the pos portion of the cycle after that???

Its like there is a 13v zener diode pulling the bottom part of the trace (circled in red)to a lower neg peak than the pos peaks. Never have I experienced what you show there. I cannot see how your first neg peak is 13.6v and then it swings back up to 20v, and even 25v respectively.

Something is clamping down on your neg side of the wave.   Would be nice to see the setup you did that test with.

I cannot say your testing there is correct.  Dont you see it?

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1191 on: April 25, 2017, 07:06:03 PM »
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Offline Cadman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1192 on: April 25, 2017, 07:10:47 PM »
I realize this thread is about a bifilar pancake coil, but did you know that nowhere in the Tesla patent 512340 Coil for Electromagnets is a flat or pancake coil mentioned?

Before the drawings are pointed to for evidence, the first drawing depicts a coil wound in the ordinary manner.

Just thought I would mention it.

Regards

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1193 on: April 25, 2017, 07:56:08 PM »
I realize this thread is about a bifilar pancake coil, but did you know that nowhere in the Tesla patent 512340 Coil for Electromagnets is a flat or pancake coil mentioned?

Before the drawings are pointed to for evidence, the first drawing depicts a coil wound in the ordinary manner.

Just thought I would mention it.

Regards


And Tesla says that the idea can be used in any coil design well known to exist. (is similar words) I had mentioned this earlier that the flat coils were most likely used in the diagrams for easier understanding of what he is describing. If it were a cylinder coil with multi layers, it would be harder to see what he means in the description. He also could have shown like the 3d bifi coil we see going around, which works for understanding value, but i think he had his reasons for displaying it as a flat coil for that purpose.

So I agree with you. ;)

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1193 on: April 25, 2017, 07:56:08 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1194 on: April 25, 2017, 08:13:31 PM »
Ok,the second test is to see which of the two coils is better at inducing a secondary coil.
So a P/in for P/out test.

The secondary coil is the secondary from a MOT,where i am using 1 half of the windings-->coil is split into two sets of windings--from other projects.
The MOT has a 680 ohm resistor across it as a load.

First,with a set V/RMS of 1.6v across the BPC,the frequency was raised until maximum V amplitude was achieved across the 680 ohm resistor on the secondary coil(the MOT coil),by doing a sweep from 500HTz to 2MHz.
Once maximum output frequency was found,we then placed the scope across the 2.2 ohm CVR on the BPC,and the second channel to read the voltage across the coils-so as we could calculate P/in.

The very same test was done for the single wound coil.

So here are the results.

BPC

P/in=1.6v @ 216mV/RMS over the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 157.088mW
Power dissipated by CVR=21.207mW

P/out=1.56VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out=3.578mW
 

Single wound coil

P/in=1.6VRMS @ 208mV across the 2.2 ohm CVR
P/in= 151.264mW
Power dissipated by CVR=19.66mW

P/out=1.68VRMS over 680 ohms
P/out= 4.150mW

So,from this test,it would seem that the single wound coil out-performs the BPC in electromagnetic induction-or energy transfer to another coil.


Brad

Well thats interesting. Your single wire coil seems to outperform inducting the square coil.  For sake of argument, those screw terminals in the middle of the coils look to be different sizes and could be acting as cores in what is suppose to be an air core test. Just thinking. The one in the single is larger.

Did you record the freq for each result? Or were both coils results happening at the same freq?

This would be a first for me that a supposed identical single wire coil actually outperforms a bifi of the same. If the resistance and inductance are the same, where do you suspect the loss to be credited to?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1195 on: April 25, 2017, 11:34:36 PM »
Here is a scope shot of me just hiting a micro switch that puts .02v across the coil then I open it. The scale is 20v so you wouldnt even see the input in the shot. Will set it up with a 1ohm to show input. But the first swing to the neg after releasing the switch, IS the largest swing of the oscillation. 

Will do more. Been real busy with work I have.

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1195 on: April 25, 2017, 11:34:36 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1196 on: April 25, 2017, 11:48:34 PM »
Seeing the 25mhz shown on the scope, knowing the coil calculated to about 180khz, I shifted the trace to the left and it is now consistently in the 230khz range. So the scope has more data to accurately represent the freq of the wave.

There is no spike like a single wire coil would show as we have seen them. Once the switch is open, the load is the scope. Not fg to pull down the coils oscillation once the input is disconnected, as I described earlier for this test. The scope probe may be altering the freq, but there is no ghz or even mhz quick spike like a normal coil typically shows.

Mags

Edit   The 180khz was actually calculated 85khz.  Not sure why the calculated and actual scope measurement is off by that much....But just wanted to correct that,,
http://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg504458/#msg504458
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 07:09:01 PM by Magluvin »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1197 on: April 25, 2017, 11:52:59 PM »
Seeing the 25mhz shown on the scope, knowing the coil calculated to about 180khz, I shifted the trace to the left and it is now consistently in the 230khz range. So the scope has more data to accurately represent the freq of the wave.

There is no spike like a single wire coil would show as we have seen them. Once the switch is open, the load is the scope. Not fg to pull down the coils oscillation once the input is disconnected, as I described earlier for this test. The scope probe may be altering the freq, but there is no ghz or even mhz quick spike like a normal coil typically shows.

Mags

I had found it strange that in brads scope shots the res freq of the single wire only seems about twice the freq of the bifi, and both shots on the same time scale. Maybe he can show us that in a vid to show whats going on better.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1198 on: April 26, 2017, 12:58:07 AM »
Typically we see field collapse spikes and they are pretty much prevalent.  So I changed up the voltage scale from 20v to 5v and lengthened the time scale to possibly see what is going on around the oscillations I had shown above. I also added the blue trace at 5v scale, but shifted the trace above the yel trace of the coil so both can be seen easier.

Gnd of both scope probes and neg of power supply(set for 4.2v) and one leg of the coil are all connected together. The blue trace is monitoring the power side of the micro switch, and the switch on sends current through the coil.

The first shot is switch off

The second shot is when switch is turned off from being on. I cannot switch the switch fast enough to capture on and off of the switch in one shot. So the coil is taking on full current before the switch is turned off...

We see that when the switch goes off, the yell trace goes low for a bit before the oscillation occurs.  ???   What is that? Is that our spike dissipating current across the switch gap before the oscillation portion of the trace appears? Switch is open and only the scope across the coils leads.

More later...

Mags
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 03:16:56 AM by Magluvin »

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1199 on: April 26, 2017, 10:45:33 AM »
Hey brad

In your scope shots, it looks as if something is altering the ring of the oscillation when the trace gets near the neg peaks. If what you say and show is just that first pos 1% duty input(circled in blue), and after that it lets go, that first neg part of the cycle should be more than the peak of the pos portion of the cycle after that???

Its like there is a 13v zener diode pulling the bottom part of the trace (circled in red)to a lower neg peak than the pos peaks. Never have I experienced what you show there. I cannot see how your first neg peak is 13.6v and then it swings back up to 20v, and even 25v respectively.

Something is clamping down on your neg side of the wave.   Would be nice to see the setup you did that test with.

I cannot say your testing there is correct.  Dont you see it?

Mags

Easy to explain Mag's
As explained in post 1266--Quote: I have a diode on one of the input leads to each coil,so as we get a DC pulse going into the coils only.

The diode is clamping the bottom half of the wave  ;)


Brad

 

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