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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 171299 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1170 on: April 24, 2017, 04:00:58 PM »
Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns. He goes on to state that it's the elevated charge storage that cancels the self inductance at any input current or frequency; Hence, as evostars points out, the bifilar "Never Generates Any Flyback"!

The biflar coil generates a stronger magnetic field than the single wire coil when it's pulsed, as I've been pointing out for over eight years.

Pulsing the iron nail core through the single wire coil, first produces a "Positive" current, then when the current's interrupted, a "Negative Current" pulse follows. This cancels the "Impulse Magnetization" effect.

The series bifilar doesn't generate a negative "Cancellation Pulse".

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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1171 on: April 24, 2017, 05:22:07 PM »
You only loose it if you let it get lost.

What if the transfer is not a dump?
What if you are not "storing" the energy?

What dose a capacitor do?-stores energy.
If you do not want to store energy,then why do you need a high capacitance value in the coil?


Brad

Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1172 on: April 24, 2017, 05:30:23 PM »
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1172 on: April 24, 2017, 05:30:23 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1173 on: April 24, 2017, 05:37:36 PM »
Partzman

It is unfortunate that TK is one of the Builders who has left this forum

issues with member Synchro and most recently This Fellow Zephir's
TOS violations.


Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1174 on: April 24, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
Could you put that in newbie terms?

I think you are saying that almost no current flow and yet there is still an induction transfer?

There is current flow within the TBP that is recirculating and creating induction in the windings, but little current exits the circuit at the frequency shown in the example.  This circulating current is the result of energy transfer between the winding inductances and the distributed capacitance between windings.  The small current in the sense resistor on the output represents the losses in the TBP such as the DC resistance of the windings and other parasitics.   

The internal induction of the TBP can be sensed with an external coil and if the coil is loaded, the current in the output sense resistor to ground will increase as energy is drawn from the transmission line or TBP.

PM

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1174 on: April 24, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
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Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1175 on: April 24, 2017, 09:41:16 PM »
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.
Thanks  alot, for the great info!

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1176 on: April 24, 2017, 09:55:30 PM »
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.

hey Parts

Would it not be possible that there is a series of cap plates that go from end to end of the coil also? As instead of referring to each turn in your schematic, lets look at 1mm of each turn in relation to the next turn and the next all the way to the other out terminal of the coil? Divide the winding into 1mm sections and look longways to the other end of the coil. We could be frigidity and say that well no matter how we look at it, there isnt even a 1 mm string directly across the length from actual entry of one end and the other, for there is at least 1 turn of the coil at either end, but thats much much closer than half way through the coil. But I think it would be interesting if we could isolate the thing with particular operation as to see if with a normal coil, yes the V divisions between turns total the input, but if bifi, and there is 50% input V between each adjacent turn, how might that add up if we were to say cut input and possibly read a spike that is input / 2 times the number of turns(minus the fidgit).

If we did see a spike that did coincide with 50%Vin x Tn as in number of turns, then we can assume the possibility of what Im thinking is the same. And if it is then I also think the bifi coil should also resonate at the same freq of a single wire coil.  Is your sweep going into the mhz on the bifi, in the range that the single wire coil rings?

If the bifi does have also an upper res freq like the single wire(possibly not exactly the same freq for the fidgit sake), now it is operating on the same capacitance as the single wire we would have to say. I would. What then of the 50% voltage developed between turns? Does that function still happen and for brief moments there is higher potential in opposition to the input??   ??? Would be a nice thing to ponder. The bifi has a greater complication as to its workings than a typical lc and even the lc components of a single wire coil which are much closer to a typical lc of its given values.

I spent some time setting up circuits like you show, and once I got to the 3rd example I guess the applet could not handle the idea of so many caps and coils and lap froze. lost it. So I decided to just write it. Will do that though, but on separate windows so it doesnt bug out.



Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1176 on: April 24, 2017, 09:55:30 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1177 on: April 24, 2017, 11:30:25 PM »
hey Parts

Would it not be possible that there is a series of cap plates that go from end to end of the coil also? As instead of referring to each turn in your schematic, lets look at 1mm of each turn in relation to the next turn and the next all the way to the other out terminal of the coil? Divide the winding into 1mm sections and look longways to the other end of the coil. We could be frigidity and say that well no matter how we look at it, there isnt even a 1 mm string directly across the length from actual entry of one end and the other, for there is at least 1 turn of the coil at either end, but thats much much closer than half way through the coil. But I think it would be interesting if we could isolate the thing with particular operation as to see if with a normal coil, yes the V divisions between turns total the input, but if bifi, and there is 50% input V between each adjacent turn, how might that add up if we were to say cut input and possibly read a spike that is input / 2 times the number of turns(minus the fidgit).

If we did see a spike that did coincide with 50%Vin x Tn as in number of turns, then we can assume the possibility of what Im thinking is the same. And if it is then I also think the bifi coil should also resonate at the same freq of a single wire coil.  Is your sweep going into the mhz on the bifi, in the range that the single wire coil rings?

If the bifi does have also an upper res freq like the single wire(possibly not exactly the same freq for the fidgit sake), now it is operating on the same capacitance as the single wire we would have to say. I would. What then of the 50% voltage developed between turns? Does that function still happen and for brief moments there is higher potential in opposition to the input??   ??? Would be a nice thing to ponder. The bifi has a greater complication as to its workings than a typical lc and even the lc components of a single wire coil which are much closer to a typical lc of its given values.

I spent some time setting up circuits like you show, and once I got to the 3rd example I guess the applet could not handle the idea of so many caps and coils and lap froze. lost it. So I decided to just write it. Will do that though, but on separate windows so it doesnt bug out.



Mags

Mags,

Yes, there is capacitance along each winding as well as coupling between the sections and those small values are left out of the sim for simplicity as they really don't seem to affect the outcome.  It is interesting and very educational to view plots of the voltages and currents at various locations throughout the sections to gain an understanding.  I have found that it is not always what one expects.

Although I cut off the sweep frequency at ~1.28Mhz, there is at least one more resonance peak that is not shown at a ~1.48Mhz.  I haven't gone beyond that so I'm not sure what other peaks and dips may exist but I'm sure they are there due to higher harmonics.

I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP.  :)

PM

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1178 on: April 25, 2017, 12:00:52 AM »
Mags,

Yes, there is capacitance along each winding as well as coupling between the sections and those small values are left out of the sim for simplicity as they really don't seem to affect the outcome.  It is interesting and very educational to view plots of the voltages and currents at various locations throughout the sections to gain an understanding.  I have found that it is not always what one expects.

Although I cut off the sweep frequency at ~1.28Mhz, there is at least one more resonance peak that is not shown at a ~1.48Mhz.  I haven't gone beyond that so I'm not sure what other peaks and dips may exist but I'm sure they are there due to higher harmonics.

I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP.  :)

PM

ok.  Dont know if you have a duplicate of a bifi in single wire with same ga wire and no. of turns to compare the bifi upper resonance to. Id be interested in the effects possibly with inducing the single wire from the bifi if they were in res at the same freq. Im not asking you to do it, but its part of what I want to do.

And.... 

"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  ;) Have you done this? :o ;D

Mags


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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1178 on: April 25, 2017, 12:00:52 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1179 on: April 25, 2017, 12:04:07 AM »


"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  ;) Have you done this? :o ;D

Mags

That one was given to me earlier and I dont want to take credit for the idea of figuring it out by myself. I will give credit where it is due as need be.  ;)

Mags

Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1180 on: April 25, 2017, 01:02:51 AM »
There is current flow within the TBP that is recirculating and creating induction in the windings, but little current exits the circuit at the frequency shown in the example.  This circulating current is the result of energy transfer between the winding inductances and the distributed capacitance between windings. 
that could explain the absence of the magnetic field in Nelson Rochaa's video:
https://youtu.be/XGyz31yaCdw

Very interesting. this is tickling my brain in a pleasant way.  ;D
I wonder what this frequency is, and if I can find it with real coils.

Thanks Partzman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1180 on: April 25, 2017, 01:02:51 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1181 on: April 25, 2017, 01:45:43 AM »
Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns. He goes on to state that it's the elevated charge storage that cancels the self inductance at any input current or frequency; Hence, as evostars points out, the bifilar "Never Generates Any Flyback"!

The biflar coil generates a stronger magnetic field than the single wire coil when it's pulsed, as I've been pointing out for over eight years.

Pulsing the iron nail core through the single wire coil, first produces a "Positive" current, then when the current's interrupted, a "Negative Current" pulse follows. This cancels the "Impulse Magnetization" effect.

The series bifilar doesn't generate a negative "Cancellation Pulse".

"Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns."

Well he describes that number with a coil of 1000 turns with 100v in and .1v between adjacent turns. When we jump to say 100 turns, then there is 1v between adjacent turns which shifts that large bifi number to 25,000 times. So if it were a 10,000 turn coil, the effect is 2.5mil times. Perspective...

With a normal coil the more turns, the worse the capacitance gets. More turns, more division of input V between turns. The closest a bifi and single wire coil get is in 2 full turns. As the no. of turns increases for each, the capacity goes in opposite directions for each while the inductance and resistance remain the same for each. All if each coil is identical in wire and turns and geometry of the windings,

Mags

Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1182 on: April 25, 2017, 02:59:57 AM »
ok.  Dont know if you have a duplicate of a bifi in single wire with same ga wire and no. of turns to compare the bifi upper resonance to. Id be interested in the effects possibly with inducing the single wire from the bifi if they were in res at the same freq. Im not asking you to do it, but its part of what I want to do.

And.... 

"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  ;) Have you done this? :o ;D

Mags

Mags,

Yes, not with the TBP specifically but with stacked pancake coils.  The schematic below shows the actual circuit used to produce the attached scope waveforms which are part of my MEI or Magneto Electric Induction research.  The basic device consists of pcbs with foil traces on both sides stacked with a dielectric material in between creating a special transformer with transmission line characteristics.  This transformer primary has one end open with the driven end appearing as capacitive reactive load to any generator source.  Therefore, a square wave generator drives the primary thru an inductor which resonates with the input capacitance of the primary and producing induction in the secondaries thru displacement current as previously mentioned.

The scope pix shows the various waveforms of the probes in the schematic with the resulting input power in the Math(red) channel  equaling -1.7 watts rms.  Also note the phase between the input current generating the voltage across the 1 ohm sense resistor leads the input voltage by 90.42 degrees.  The output voltage on CH3 is 8.07v rms which produces an output power thru the 51 ohm load of 1.28w rms.

The caveat to all this is that the infinite power gain is referenced to the resonant input sine wave driving the transformer with no consideration of the power consumed from the square wave generating source.

Research into this type of generator is ongoing.

PM


Offline hoptoad

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1183 on: April 25, 2017, 04:16:54 AM »
snip...
Do you see any core?  Where do you suppose the energy
(or whatever you would like to refer to it as) is being stored?
snip...
The energy is stored in both the magnetic field produced by the current through the coil and the distributed capacitance of the coil. No core required.
BTW - it was Tesla, in his own words, who referred to energy being stored.

Offline hoptoad

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1184 on: April 25, 2017, 05:02:58 AM »
"Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns."
snip...
Read Tesla's patent again.

https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/patents/us-patent-512340-coil-electro-magnets

He doesn't say that the electrical potential generated is 250,000 times greater in the BFC, he says the energy stored is 250,000 times greater than that stored in a SWC, (assuming a 50V potential between adjacent windings in the BFC). Big difference.

 

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