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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 177308 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1110 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:02 PM »
Normal transformer is less expensive then a pancake coil ? i don't think so ... only the core will increase the final price of transformer in relation to pancake coil just like their losses.

A ordinary transformer will transfer power and it will be superior in performance ?
I don't think so too . Test it and after you could talk more Assertively.

What is meaningless is your certainties sometimes .
Have a nice day
 
Nelson Rocha

There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1111 on: April 22, 2017, 02:42:40 PM »

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...


Nelson Rocha
 



Offline AlienGrey

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1112 on: April 22, 2017, 04:02:38 PM »
"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...


Nelson Rocha
Nelson Hi yes it's said to be the ion in the transformer you mention, i'm not sur 'E & I' laminations are so good, 'UU' type would return much more, and give me the no free meal exists joke, the nefalines have been having them since the beginning of time.

Talking about pancake coils would there be any 'special' wire length or frequency where a return is greatest ? 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1112 on: April 22, 2017, 04:02:38 PM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1113 on: April 22, 2017, 04:08:12 PM »
There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.
It's not 'Energy transfer we need, all that's available commercially and available from the 'grid', but it's never going to be 'free' ;)

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1114 on: April 22, 2017, 04:31:40 PM »
There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

Well,im with you on this one MH,as i have seen nothing more than a lower resonant frequency from a BPC,than that of a single wound coil,of exact same dimensions,wire size,and wire type.

What i have seen so far,is !some! here,harping on about how special the BPC is,but show absolutely nothing to back up this claim.

From this we can deduce that they cannot show anything great about the BPC,and that the fanaticism is only there for the BPC for no other reason than that of the name behind it !Tesla!.

So,why would the BPC have a lower resonant frequency of that of a single wound coil of the same parameters?.

Well my theory on that.
With the single wound coil,both the resistive value across each winding,and the capacitive value between each winding,would decrease as you go from the outside winding,to the inner winding.
With the BPC,only the capacitive value between windings would decrease,as you go from the outer winding,to the inner winding. The resistive value across each two windings would remain a constant value.
The symmetry of this resistance value,may be why the BPC has a lower resonant frequency.

Anyway,that's my two cents worth.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1114 on: April 22, 2017, 04:31:40 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1115 on: April 22, 2017, 05:13:18 PM »
Here is the problem....who said anything about power transfer!?  Ah...I get it, that's what you interpreted from Nelson's demonstration.  I am not a groupie, however, I do appreciate why you would think that (that this is about power transfer...a message you keep repeating),  and hey, what do I know, maybe his (Nelson's) message in that video is about power transfer......would be a shame if it was....  Knowing what we know today, who in their right mind is interested and or concerned with the rate at which energy is "dissipated"?!?  I keep coming to the same conclusion regarding that question......"the ignorant".

It is quite fascinating witnessing how you are paralyzed by your years of experience, all that compressed time prohibiting you from truly appreciating what is right in front of you, you of above all were trained to see it and yet...you are as blind as those you judge.....  What you describe is exactly what I want.....Everything you point a crooked finger at and downplay are the strengths of this "geometry", strengths of this "relation", not weakness!

Nelson said power transfer, I am not interpreting anything.  "The ignorant" are interested and or concerned with the rate at which energy is "dissipated"?!?  The poor humble masses worrying about the battery life of their smartphones when there are bigger fish to fry?

What am I blind to?  What is it that I can't appreciate?  What is it that you want?  What are the strengths?  If you refuse to answer and scoff that I would dare to ask then you are nothing more than the resident thread clown.  I am saying this ahead of time because we have been down this road before.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1116 on: April 22, 2017, 05:25:52 PM »
"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...

Nelson Rocha

What you are saying makes no sense.  Transformers use ferrite cores so that their power density is high and therefore they can be made in small sizes.  The ferrite core also retains the magnetic field internal to the transformer itself.  Without a ferrite core the transformer would have to be much larger and it would radiate a magnetic field in the vicinity of the transformer which would disturb other components with undesirable magnetic induction effects happening everywhere.  Even if you do not make use of an iron core, you would not make a transformer in the form of a Tesla bifilar pancake coil, you would make a regular transformer in some sort of solenoid configuration without a series bifilar winding.

We are still waiting for some actual application for a Tesla bifilar pancake coil and so far there is none that I am aware of.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1116 on: April 22, 2017, 05:25:52 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1117 on: April 22, 2017, 05:43:45 PM »
exactly....the ignorant.....
everything...
in a word....everything....
as if you can provide it.... 
you don't know? 
I am not going to lose any sleep because the milehigh says that I am the resident thread clown....

Erfinder the enigma man wrapped in a mystery.  Can you crack the code?

Ha ha the things you can find on Google Images.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1118 on: April 22, 2017, 05:56:40 PM »
Considering what I wrote earlier, Im convinced that the bifi has 'also' the same series cap effect I explained, from end to end like the single wire coil. So I recommend trying to run the bifi at the freq the single coil res freq, just to see what happens.  Ive been working so I wont have real time to do these things till sunday, or I would.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1118 on: April 22, 2017, 05:56:40 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1119 on: April 22, 2017, 05:59:12 PM »
Erfinder the enigma man wrapped in a mystery.  Can you crack the code?

Ha ha the things you can find on Google Images.

You are bordering on earlier claims made against syncro. Er has definitely cleaned up his posts and i respect that, a lot. ;)

Clean it up

Mags

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1120 on: April 22, 2017, 07:11:02 PM »
We can calculate for Ohms with sufficient facts, or measure for them with a DMM.

Same goes for Reluctance. We can calculate for "Inverse Henries" or measure for them with an "Inductance Meter". "Inverse Henries" and "Negative Henries" are both measures of inductor field strength. The stronger the inductor magnetic field, the more it resists a change in current.

Remember: A negative corollary has an inverse relationship between two variables.

Every "B" field stores a tiny amount of electric power in an "H" field. The "H" field is directly proportional to the strength of the "B" field. The inductance meter measures the "H" field and converts the measurement into "Negative Henries" which in turn can be factored into the "B" field strength in Teslas and Gauss.

Milehigh and Tinselkoala couldn't answer specific questions about the amount of power it would require to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic force in an inductor of 1 Henry of inductance. Ramset alleged that they're just trying to help me out; It could be that they're just that ignorant.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1120 on: April 22, 2017, 07:11:02 PM »
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Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1121 on: April 22, 2017, 08:05:48 PM »
Simplicity is sometimes kind of nice to have, so I'll make it simple...

Your cargo travels in the train right?   Not the railroad tracks.

Then why try to push your energy down the wires?  Wouldn't it make
more sense to just use the wires as a guide and let the energy
follow those wires instead of try to go through them?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1122 on: April 22, 2017, 08:12:44 PM »
Let me see if this makes sense.

MH states that if you use and view the bifi coil in the usual way you will only see what we already know and understand.
this I agree with,, the same old is after all the same old.

MH has asked what makes the bifi not normal, but then frames the question with the usual way of looking at these kind of things.

Others are stating that if you look at the bifi in a "new" way that you will see "new" things.

A question that has come up is why run the bifi at resonance?

Then a question to MH,, what makes resonance so wonderful?

IMHO it is only good for storing energy and or making a nice timing device,, that is when used in the normal fashion.

These questions seem reasonable,, and maybe MH should actually try and answer them instead of only repeating the customary view,, what new views can you come up with MH?

Just some dumb questions to spur the imagination,,
what would happen if you charged the dielectric and then placed it between 2 plates?
what would the condition of the plates be after you did something with the charged dielectric?

Not saying these questions have anything to do with anything,, but sometimes thinking about something else stimulates the old noggin into action.

"These questions seem reasonable,, and maybe MH should actually try and answer them instead of only repeating the customary view,, what new views can you come up with MH?"

Exactly. His stance has most always been that there is nothing more to see beyond what is written as laws or the forced equations that are given to us.  He will not look any further than that. And presses that on others when they try. Its all over these pages not just in this thread alone.

This place is really here for discovering something that may be there and it just hasnt been accomplished yet. OR it has been accomplished, and in many ways possibly, and it is being hidden and ones that come close are trashed into nowhere land. Its one or the other, isnt it? ;)   lol    50 50 chance :o ;D

To force the books on every "new idea"? Id think most people are not here to get an associate degree like in the box schools. If the idea claims to go beyond the books, then THAT is what people are looking for here .  This site is here to look beyond what we know and or what is 'not known yet, otherwise MH would be correct in much earlier statements that this place is for people to learn electronics,/etc.... If that IS what this place is all about, for reals, then there are a huge chunk of members and readers at the wrong site. Ya know?

Like ask him if there is anything left to learn about pulse motors. Anything?  He will say no. Has made the statements. His words. Do you believe that statement to be 'fact'?

Mags

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1123 on: April 22, 2017, 08:20:16 PM »
What you are saying makes no sense.  Transformers use ferrite cores so that their power density is high and therefore they can be made in small sizes.  The ferrite core also retains the magnetic field internal to the transformer itself.  Without a ferrite core the transformer would have to be much larger and it would radiate a magnetic field in the vicinity of the transformer which would disturb other components with undesirable magnetic induction effects happening everywhere.  Even if you do not make use of an iron core, you would not make a transformer in the form of a Tesla bifilar pancake coil, you would make a regular transformer in some sort of solenoid configuration without a series bifilar winding.

We are still waiting for some actual application for a Tesla bifilar pancake coil and so far there is none that I am aware of.


To me what does not make sense is you think that i don't know what is the difference between a transformer with iron core and ferrite core .
Are you trying to ridicule me? Hope not because seems to me very poor attempt on your part, and if you don't want answer what i ask it's ok to me, but don't fall in the ridicule of try teach something so basic like you did about the transformers theme .
Get some sun man .

Nelson Rocha


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1124 on: April 22, 2017, 08:24:44 PM »

Try this....


Two "plates" separated by dielectric is a cap.....right....not a question....


Why then is it so damn difficult to see that the bifilar coil as two small cross section plates separated by dielectric?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  Stop focusing on the connection between the two "plates" and focus on the obvious, specifically, you are literally looking at two parallel plates (inductors in this case) separated by dielectric...


What MH thinks is immaterial....what anyone thinks is immaterial...we must consider the obvious, that which is right in your damn face, screaming at you....  If you can't see the painfully obvious, slowly step away from the bench, with your hands raised above your head.....  turn away from the bench, leave the room, do not forget to turn off the light, and never return to your lab again.

Right. Nice depiction in characters. So we have the series caps from input to input but, we have the advantage of the unique increase in plate to plate voltage as compared to a single wire coil.  And what if we were able to operate the coil a certain way, is there a way to apply input then take it away and see that half input voltage charge times the number of turns , or as you correctly say, plates? 100v in, 50v between plates times 100 turns. 5kv.  I really cant see that anyone would think it cant be as I say. Im just goin with what Im seein in my jelly ball above my neck. Maybe your direction with it is different. But thanks for that nice contribution. ;) It all shows that the bifi is a different monster in possibly more than one way. We continue on.

Mags

 

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