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Availbale Products, Material- and Service suppliers => Do It Yourself => Topic started by: sm0ky2 on January 23, 2017, 09:08:32 PM

Title: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 23, 2017, 09:08:32 PM
it has been requested that I provide plans to build your own
Electrostatic Generator
This particular machine Is known as a Voss machine
Named after its' inventor.
This also resembles a combo machine know as
A Toepler-Holtz machine.


These machines operate with only 1 spinning disk with collectors
The inductors are located on a stationary disk.
My machine has been modified several times from the original
After several experiments with different plate sizes
And arrangements I have come up with this machine
Which I call my Ion Generator
Featured on my YouTube channel
https://m.youtube.com/user/Sm0ky2 (https://m.youtube.com/user/Sm0ky2)
And presented here in the following hand-drawn plans
The disks can be arranged vertically or horizontally
I chose horizontal to make it easier for me to see everything
that's going on when I change brush locations
But that's just a personal preference it works either way

Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 23, 2017, 09:11:54 PM
These are the plans for the modified Voss Machine
If anything in my drawing is not clear or needs further
explaination just ask and I'll do my best.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 23, 2017, 09:22:42 PM
Not sure why it loaded them sideways
But you can d/l the pics and have them for your projects
if you need help figuring out how the brushes go just ask
I can walk you through any problems you encounter
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: TinselKoala on January 24, 2017, 05:42:47 AM
As you can see, uploading huge images wastes bandwidth and also screws up the forum page so that it is way too wide. You have to scroll all the way to the right to see the "reply" button, etc.

Except in the most unusual cases, an image width of 800 pixels is sufficient. If you need to show greater detail in higher resolution, you can crop the section you need to emphasize and show it enlarged to 800 pixels wide.

For your present images, I have rotated them, cropped out unnecessary white space and sized them, in this case, to 1200 pixels wide. There are _many_ different image editing programs that you can use to make images easier to up/download and display on the forum page. I prefer using gimp, which is almost "photoshop" in its capability, is available for all popular operating systems and is free. It takes about 6 mouseclicks to rotate, edit, crop and resize images for easy display.

Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: TinselKoala on January 24, 2017, 05:57:47 AM
As far as the design of the machine itself is concerned, the Voss machine was basically redesigned by A.D. Moore into the "Dirod" configuration which avoids some of the deficiencies of the original Voss design. Instead of a disc with sharp-edged sectors which limit charge buildup because of the field concentrations at the edges (also a problem with traditional Wimshurst designs), the Dirod uses a drum with "sectors" made of smooth round rods with polished smooth hemispherical ends. This allows higher voltages (more charge) to build up on the rods before it sprays away uselessly. Also the fixed inductors and output plates are made very smooth with rounded and polished edges. Otherwise the Dirod works by the same principle as the Voss machine. 

In my own Dirod version I use carbon fiber rovings (available from local model-airplane hobby shops) to make the contact brushes for output and neutral structures. These are flexible, durable and do not cause wear against the rotating parts of the machine. And for connection to external loads, capacitors, experiments, etc. I have found that ball chain (aka bead chain) makes excellent "wires" that will not leak as badly as ordinary small-diameter flexible wire.

Anyone experimenting with electrostatic machines should be aware of two excellent books on the construction and use of the machines: "Electrostatics: The Dirod Manual" by AD Moore, and "Homemade Lightning" by RA Ford. For more advanced reading, Oleg Jefimenko's book "Electrostatic Motors" is full of theory and experiments and designs.

(Why is this post so wide? It is because of the superwide photos posted up above. This width problem will continue until a new page begins, or until the superwide photos are edited to make them 1200 pixels wide or less.)
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 24, 2017, 07:16:14 AM
Thanks Tk for the invaluable info


What led me to this machine was mostly convenience
In the ease of construction, and only 1 moving part.


Also the open view of my setup allows me to use the machine
in several configurations and perform all kinds of experiments


For instance: I recently removed all of the collector plates
Making a Voss-Bonetti machine.  It was finicky and I had to
reverse the direction of the disk to make it work but it worked
and as far as I have found it was the only one of its' kind.
Interesting little thing but susceptible to humidity


So I have now changed to 16-plates on the collector disk
And I sealed the edges of all the plates with an acrylic
Fingernail polish.


Sorry about the inconveniently large photos
I'm doing this off my IPhone until I get internet in the new
Location


Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 24, 2017, 08:16:09 AM
Here's the new video using 14-plates
https://youtu.be/gDQgvEKJNgo (https://youtu.be/gDQgvEKJNgo)


The size of the plates decreased thereby decreasing the
Machines internal capacitance
For this reason I had to separate the 6-plate concentric
capacitor into two 3-plate capacitors.
The external capacitance is too high with the 6-stack
And the machine reverts back to the 1st mode of operation
Which is undesirable for my experiments
With the smaller external capacitance the machine operates
in the 2nd mode, with consistent high frequency electrical output.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: gotoluc on January 24, 2017, 04:26:36 PM
Hi Sm0ky2


Thanks for your new topic.


In your new video you reach down and click a switch. Does that switch power off your motor that turns the Voss disk?


Luc
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 25, 2017, 08:04:37 PM
Yes. At that point in the clip no power is going to the
motor that powers the machine.
Flywheel momentum will continue to produce electricity
Until the wheel slows down from friction.
The wheel is not balanced in that video, and the brushes
as they were configured caused a lot of friction, so it
came to a stop rather quickly. When everything is running
smoothly I can flip the switch and it will cruise along for
over 1 minute, producing sparks the whole time.


Shorting the motor while this is going on (using as a generator)
Slows the wheel quickly.



Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 25, 2017, 08:23:59 PM
This machine looks counter intuitive when you first
Get it set up


And most diagrams show the brush locations sort of
in the wrong places.
Which is why I modified mine


So what I will describe it how my machine works
In relation to the above build.


These machines work opposite from a whimshurst
Or the Bonetti machine. Those machines go like:
Neutralize -> induct -> pick-up


The Voss (and my Ion Generator) works like:
Pick-up -> neutralize -> induct


This is because you pick up the direct charge
From the inductor plate. This is transferred to the
Collectors from the brushes (A&B in my diagram).


Where-as the formor machines induce and pick-up
On the same plates.


The advantage of this is to ensure maximum charge
On every plate as it passes the pick-up brushes.
The inductor plate carries way more charge than
Each single collector plate can hold.


The collector, being next in line, readily receives the
charge because it is repelled away from the collector plate
By the like-charge of the larger inductor plate.


It is immediately after the pick-up that you want to
Neutralize the charges.
So that you maximize the surface area of the inductor
plate over which you are inducing.


The other advantage of this system is that it does not
"arc-over" the surface of the disk like Whimshurst machines
are quite fond of.



Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: shylo on January 26, 2017, 10:13:42 AM
Hi Smokey, I don't know much about these machines,
It looks like there is a large space between the 2 plates
I mean the rotor and stator, would closer mean more output?
Also what type of metal foil do you use?
Last ,will this type of machine work at lower rpm's,
because I noticed in the video that as it slowed the arcing also slowed.
I have a whole role of 1/2 inch stainless steel tubing,
maybe I could cut it into 3 or 4 inch lengths, put them in a stator
around a rotor of plates.
Interesting thanks artv
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 26, 2017, 01:16:04 PM
Dear Sm0ky2.

Many thanks for opening this thread, it was I that spoke to Chet.

I have a couple of possible tips to improve your device.

When I built the T-1000 motor I had the rotor placed horizontally, like yours, with the drive motor underneath. On one occasion I turned it through 90 deg and to my amazement the the current dropped by over 20 mA! The bearings were working in their proper manner. Less friction.

The second idea, pure conjecture, what about placing a laminated sector, i.e. another foil with insulator on top of the first foil. Providing a small contact to the lower plate? In other words a parallel plate capacitor.

I hope to copy your design when the weather gets better, I have a massive selection of plastic sheet off cuts, what material would be best suited?

I have.... Polycarbonate, Polypropylene, PVC etc....

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 26, 2017, 02:53:25 PM
Going to keep posting until page 2.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 26, 2017, 02:53:59 PM
Another?
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 26, 2017, 02:54:45 PM
Bigger separation.



















Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 26, 2017, 02:56:03 PM
Another might do the trick?

Ah, that's better. I needed a telescope to read my iPad!!  :)

Cheers...... :)
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 26, 2017, 03:15:00 PM
A question for TinselKoala.

What would happen if we were to place a second rotor inboard of the fixed, i.e. A rotor either side?

I assume that the polarity would change?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2017, 09:09:41 PM
A question for TinselKoala.

What would happen if we were to place a second rotor inboard of the fixed, i.e. A rotor either side?

I assume that the polarity would change?

Kind regards, Graham.

Check Antonio's excellent website. He shows many variations of the basic Voss/Toepler type machines.
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/voss2.html (http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/voss2.html)
He also has some clear explanations of how these machines actually work.

Not double, but I think this one is really cute:
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cyl1.jpg (http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cyl1.jpg)
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cylind.html (http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cylind.html)

And here's an interesting idea:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/266345803/sparkit-miniature-electrostatic-generator (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/266345803/sparkit-miniature-electrostatic-generator)
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Cherryman on January 26, 2017, 09:46:57 PM

Not double, but I think this one is really cute:
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cyl1.jpg (http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cyl1.jpg)
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cylind.html (http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/cylind.html)



Tnx for the Cute one! I'm trying some things along those lines myself, this helps!
 
(edit: Why is this forum always messing up my text sizes, with al kinds of unwanted inserts ?? )
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 28, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Closer distance between disks does increase induction
My build has a large gap to keep my wobbly disk from
scraping the stationary disk.


The disk with two large inductors does not move
I modified this piece from the original design
which had two small rectangular plates
The larger curved plates give me more charge


RPM - yes this is a high-rpm device, the faster it turns
the higher the frequency of the output. It is literally
how many times the rotating plates cross the pick up
brushes per second.


Larger rotating collector plates give more charge at a
lower frequency, while smaller plates give less charge
at a higher frequency.


Whimshurst/Bonetti machines are designed to operate
at a slower RPM.  (Around 30 or so usually).
Although I did have the Voss-Bonetti going at much
higher speeds.



Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 28, 2017, 09:20:39 PM
@Grumage


Thank you for your post and interest in these machines


As TK mentioned, the induction process works in all kinds
of configurations, including cylindrical devices.


While my build is intended to be simple, for beginners to
Build and test this technology - I have experimented
with and studied others musings about the ideas you
mention.


You can indeed increase the charge on the inductors by
Adding a secondary capacitative plate behind it.
In theory the same could be done on the rotating plate.


Adding a second rotating plate opposite the stationary
inductor, is more beneficial as it results in a doubling of
The collected charge.
This can be extended to a long shaft including many plates
Connecting the output in parallel provides a large current.


There really is no limit to the complexities of these machines
Other than the force required to turn the pieces.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: shylo on January 30, 2017, 10:40:49 AM
Hi Smokey, The reason I was asking is because my rotor will self run for 1/2 hour.
I was hoping to add the 2 plates to the rotor and just put the stationary next to it to collect the charge to help top up my caps , to extend my run time.
Just not sure how to incorporate this with my rotor.
artv
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Grumage on January 30, 2017, 05:42:17 PM
Hi Smokey, The reason I was asking is because my rotor will self run for 1/2 hour.
I was hoping to add the 2 plates to the rotor and just put the stationary next to it to collect the charge to help top up my caps , to extend my run time.
Just not sure how to incorporate this with my rotor.
artv

Dear artv.

Video please !!    :)

We can always fast forward !!   ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: conradelektro on January 30, 2017, 07:36:39 PM

Since the topic is electrostatic machines, I want to draw attention to the electrophorus which is the most simple electrostatic machine.

I could find a few little modifications (HV diodes and HV capacitors) which render the electrophorus a little bit more useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLCp68VX7NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLCp68VX7NE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzoUiZnR5QA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzoUiZnR5QA)

Note, the little modifications turn the electrophorus into a continuously working electrostatic machine (by moving the top plat up and down a few millimetres) producing a series of positive spikes (lifting to top plate) and then negative spikes (putting the top plate down again). No opening and closing contacts are neccessary (as in the original electrophorus which needs "grounding" of the top plate after every "stroke").

The idea is to eventually come up with a "turning" electrostatic machine which avoids brushes and contacts. Remember, the mother of all electrostatic machines is the electrophorus. All turning electrostatic machines are some sort of "doublers" which add up small charges.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I want to repeat what Tinselkoala has writen, the web site http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html (http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html) is the best collection of electrostatic machines one can find at the moment. It will take you months if not years to learn what is offered. You will spare yourself years of research by studying this web site. It contains more or less all the knowledge about electrostatic machines there is so far. Also references to many papers.

Research essentially stopped in the 60ies with the Van de Graaff Generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator). HV diodes, capacitors and even HV transistors nowadays allow for Voltage doubler circuits (instead of electrostatic machines) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_doubler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_doubler) if one needs High Voltage as in magnetic resonance imaging.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Cherryman on January 30, 2017, 09:22:29 PM
If Smokey is ok with it, we talk about electrostatic some more.


Here is a nice interview with John Trump ( Yup, "the Uncle" )
( Who worked with Van der Graaff as a mentor ! )


They briefly touch the subject of using electrostatic engines as a power-source in space.
But it look's like the interviewer does a subtle job of putting that to rest very quickly.


https://youtu.be/wozw24RACZ8?t=27m56s (https://youtu.be/wozw24RACZ8?t=27m56s)


Interesting stuff. 


( I do recommend for the curious mind you see this whole interview )
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 31, 2017, 07:49:45 AM
In the early days of these machines they recognized
That x-rays and other 'effects' could be initiated with
The high potentials they could achieve.


They died in the medical industry and didn't really
resurface, except as toys and novelty items in science
museums, until recently.


Here we are some 200 yrs more advanced in all kinds
of technologies which give us endless things to play with
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 31, 2017, 07:52:05 AM
The last generation to experiment with this stuff was
Doing things that sound like science fiction even today.


I think this technology can lead to things we have
Never seen before.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: shylo on January 31, 2017, 11:01:50 PM
Hi Graham, Not really much to see ,just a magnet rotor turning.
I have to pre-charge the cap banks by spinning the rotor by hand for a minute.
If I connect a load, 36 led's from a flashlight, it only runs 20 minutes.
If I give it a 30 second spin every fifteen minutes, it will run , I'm guessing for as long as I'm willing to spin it.
The rotor charges the cap banks, but I lose with every rotation, if I can add this it may help.
Do you collect charge from the inductors(stationary plates)?
Or is it the moving plates|?
The neutral bar , why not just collect there?
Not sure ,I'm understanding it.
Thanks artv   
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 31, 2017, 11:46:20 PM
Charge is transferred from the stationary (inductor) plates.
To the moving (collector) plates.
It is picked up from the collector plates as they pass the brushes
The neutral bar then gets rid of excess charge on the plates
So they can induce further charge on the inductor plates.
Without the neutral bar you lose the difference between
What is left on the collectors after "pick-up", and the charge
held by the larger inductor plates.


The Voss functions without the neutral bar, just not as well.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Cadman on June 26, 2017, 03:29:30 PM
Sm0ky2,

I have been inspired by your Voss machine and I'm in the process of building an influence machine similar to yours.

My build is coming along nicely but I'm having a little trouble finding a suitable low drag motor to drive it with.
Would you be so kind as to tell me what motor you used?

Thank you,
Cadman
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Vladokv on July 02, 2017, 10:29:59 PM
I am fascinated with electrostatic machines. So I made simplified Voss machine by myself. And painted it nicely blue and white :)
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Vladokv on July 16, 2017, 11:41:59 PM
Video of Volta hailstorm and Voss machine I had made https://youtu.be/i1uERqYnEv8
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: gotoluc on July 17, 2017, 02:08:13 AM
Very nicely done Vladokv


Thanks for sharing


Luc
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Vladokv on July 19, 2017, 11:53:26 PM
Later I will make other electrostatic tools to. Leaf electroscope may be next. Or something else. Suggestions are welcomed. There is no active projects at moment
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Cadman on July 20, 2017, 03:35:29 PM
Later I will make other electrostatic tools to. Leaf electroscope may be next. Or something else. Suggestions are welcomed. There is no active projects at moment

Hi Vladokv,

Here are some good tools to replicate.

http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/hvmeasurements/

And a video of some of these in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r3h7IC8LWY

Regards

Cadman
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: ramset on July 20, 2017, 04:11:28 PM
Cadman
very nice indeed !!

Nothing quite like a good measuring tool for gauging progress.


respectfully
Chet
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Magluvin on July 22, 2017, 04:02:42 PM
$40

https://www.banggood.com/Wimshurst-Static-Machine-Physics-Electrostatic-Generator-Electricity-Tesla-p-1120844.html?currency=USD&utm_source=criteo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=all&utm_campaign=electronics-US&utm_design=1

Mags
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: Vladokv on July 27, 2017, 11:05:47 PM
I made big Wimschurst machine. Its big, strong, and kicking ass how it works. Workhorse of many experiments. But I always liked simplicity. Because of that, I like so much simple design - like Voss machine
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: TinselKoala on July 29, 2017, 03:13:59 PM
Even simpler:

Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 15, 2018, 02:55:16 PM
Sm0ky2,

I have been inspired by your Voss machine and I'm in the process of building an influence machine similar to yours.

My build is coming along nicely but I'm having a little trouble finding a suitable low drag motor to drive it with.
Would you be so kind as to tell me what motor you used?

Thank you,
Cadman


I have been using small (brushed) dc motors. Hobby type.
I look for the smallest one that will turn the wheel
Without a lot of current draw.


it is best to get the wheel as free spinning as possible

Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 15, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
I want to talk a little about a phenomenon I call “charge drift”
It is a functionality of electrostatic induction (electric charge induction)
and the potential consequences of it. (no pun intended)


To try an explain this to you, I need to present this in relativistic terms.
I do not prefer the term “scalar waves”, because there are mathematical
inconsistencies in these theories. While the waves of energy being discussed
are one and the same, my interpretation of the events is not in conformity
with scalar theories.


Ok so, when you think about these machines, we assume some value of
‘neutral potential’, a sort of 0-volt state, between each of the two capacitive
charges. We usually reference this to earth-ground, or an average electrical state
of the environment. But what happens when we don’t?


to the machine, this does not matter.
the machine sees the ‘center-point’ charge as 0 volts or equipotential between the
two potential differences. This is irrespective to our relative potential to the neutral charge.
The neutral charge itself can ‘drift’ far from our potential.
Meaning it can be positive or negatively charged compared to us.


We still maintain the potential difference of the machine.
If the machine produces a 100kv difference, this does not change.
However, when the neutral-charge has a potential to us,
let’s say this is +100kv, then our referenced potential to the + terminal is 200kv
Our reference to the -terminal will be (almost) nothing.


And this condition can arise in any variation within the capacitance of the
neutral-circuit.


this reference potential can drift further from us than the potential between the
two main capacitors of the machine.


When this gets above some value (+/-) ~3Mv/m^2, it can send out an
electric field propagation (wave) of very high potential, as an expanding planar
phenomenon, ionizing anything in it’s path.

Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 16, 2018, 01:34:57 AM
The effect originates along the plane of rotation.
With vertical oriented disks, as in the standard Whimshurst
The planar wave is vertical, and expands horizontally with distance
from the machine.


With horizontal oriented disks, such as in my modified Voss
the wave is horizontal, and expands vertically with distance.


With a cylindrical machine, the wave propegates from the ends of the cylinder.
and expand radially with distance.


There is a sonic effect as it passes, the pressure can both be felt and heard.
Metal objects (such as aluminum) struck by the wave, become highly charged,
and begin crackling briefly as it passes.


This is by far the most fascinating effect I have observed from the electric machines.
And have spent many sleepless nights attempting to replicate and study this effect.
In an effort to better understand its’ causes and potential applications.


Which has led me to the theory of Charge Drift.


I believe this is the same mechanism that drives the ridiculous charges in storm clouds.
As we know, the potential between top and bottom of the cloud, is much much less than the
‘net’ potential between the Earth and cloud.
I believe this to be the charge drift effect.
Title: Re: Sm0ky2's modified Voss Machine
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 16, 2018, 03:43:43 PM
Earlier in the thread I touch on a topic of the modes of operation of electric machines.
I’m rementioning now for those who wish to experiment with charge drift and the
associated waves of atmospheric disturbance.


These machines have multiple “capacitances”
The most commonly considered is the value of the Leyden jars.
Less talked about are the internal capacitances of the machine itself.
Each sector, plate, pin, etc. will hold some quantity of charge.
Mostly controlled by the surface area.
And, each according to their function, the machines will produce an internal charge,
in relation to the internal capacitances, over the time of operation.


we will now explicitly discuss rotating machines, as I am not prepared to present the
‘electrophorus’ type example, or linear-friction machines, or many others at this time.
my studies of charge drift have been limited to rotating machines up to this point.


The mode of operation that I have found best for studying this effect is that in which the
machines output is the production of the machine.
Not many people operate their machines in this way.


The standard mode of operation is the build-up of charge over time, adding up to a large
discharge, after many cycles.
This is because the Leyden jars have a greater capacitance than the internal capacitance
of the machine. The output is stored in the jars cycle after cycle, until a desired charge is
accumulated. While charge drift can and does sometimes occur in this mode, it may not be
advantageous to use this mode to replicate the effect. I have found it to be much more
difficult.


The other mode of operation allows for a direct output from the machine by allowing the
internal capacitance of the machine to exceed (or replace) the capacitance of the Leyden jars.
In leymans terms: the spark produced is directly from the machine in real time.
In this mode of operation we do not wait for charge to accumulate, but allow it to flow with the
natural cycles of the machine.
The frequency of discharge in this mode of operation is simply: n(rpm)/60
Where n is the number of sectors or plates/pins on the machine that induce a charge each
rotation.
In a machine with multiple rotating parts, the value of n is 1/2 the actual count (in most cases)
For instance, in a Whimshurst machine it would be the count of sectors on only one disk,
not both. since they are ‘paired’ in the machines operation.


The Bonetti is a more complicated analysis, as the value of n changes depending on surface conditions
of the dielectric surface, contaminants in the air (dust) and accumulating charge densities on its surface.
in a ‘clean room’ this can be limited to only charge densities, however the value of n remains inconsistent.
In an environment of equally dispersed dust and airborne contaminants n is more easily stabalized.
Also the placement of the neutral circuit can help stabilization of n, and coincidentally the output freq.


So we have our machines operating in direct output mode, functioning primarily on its internal capacitance.
The second condition we want to create is a large capacitance of the neutral circuit.
Many of these machines (in their final form) already incorporate a neutral circuit, neutralizing rod, etc.
If your design does not, simply analysis of machines that do can lead you to a method of adding this to
your machine.


This gives us an exaggerated voltage-bias which we can allow to occur naturally or cause to occur by
introducing assymetry to our designs.
Many Leyden jar designs have a secondary plate (outer) which are often connected to the same on the
other jar. We can connect our neutral circuit to this and equalize the machines neutral circuit to one value.
Or simply remove the Leyden jars all together, and increase the capacitance of our neutral circuit by
increasing its surface area or using a single Leyden jar charged by the neutral circuit.


Remember the neutral circuit is the 0-volt reference of the machines potential.
It’s potential relative to our 0-volt reference is irrelevent to the machines operation.
This voltage-bias (when not = 0) is the basis of charge drift.

And can be tested by discharging the neutral circuit to our 0-volt reference.
Or with an electrometer or similar charge-detection device.