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Author Topic: Magnets, motion and measurement  (Read 68360 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2019, 08:10:34 PM »

But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll

There is no continuous motion in the devices I have illustrated on this topic. 

There are some rotation aspects to some design  that were posted in another topic.

All motions and / or actions are start, completion of that action, then and then only then, does the next action begin.

There is No constant motion. 
There are no constant motions.

                floor

                 

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2019, 08:10:34 PM »

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2019, 08:15:35 PM »

But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll

There is no continuous motion in the devices I have illustrated on this topic. 

There are some rotation aspects to some design  that were posted in another topic. See below.

https://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/msg502026/#msg502026

All motions and / or actions are start, completion of that action, then and then only then, does the next action begin.

There is No constant motion. 
There are no constant motions.

                floor

                 

Offline citfta

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2019, 09:00:46 PM »


I am planning to build a device based on your rack design.  Shown in this PDF: (https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/icons/clip.gif) Rack Action 3 complete.pdf
I plan to have some weight on the upper arm and magnet to return it to the start position after the shield magnet is back in place.  Then remove the shield magnet again to restart the cycle.

Carroll

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2019, 09:00:46 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #213 on: June 12, 2019, 09:17:42 PM »
Since the tricky balancing and the extra power of the earlier design was not enough
I have switched to this. See the drawing. It is necessary to keep the gap to a minimum
to get maximum power. The domino sized ceramic magnets are too thick.
So I used 2 stacked Radio Shack ceramics with the hole in the middle to get
more repel power with less gap.

Norman
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 11:31:07 PM by norman6538 »

Offline lumen

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #214 on: June 13, 2019, 02:35:45 AM »
Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

It would work if steel was used for the center magnet but that also causes it to become harder to remove when the repelling magnets are closer to the steel.
Maybe the center magnet could be two thin magnets with a thin sheet of steel between them to reduce the adding effect.

I think IEC uses something along this line, where there is some steel between the repelling magnets. (laminated if you look close)




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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #214 on: June 13, 2019, 02:35:45 AM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #215 on: June 13, 2019, 03:01:11 AM »

Lumen said

Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

Lumen I'm not sure your are right. Is this head work or bench work?
The center magnet is sort of shunting the mag fields on both sides
of the magnet.

I should know in a few days....

Norman


Offline lumen

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #216 on: June 13, 2019, 07:31:18 PM »
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #216 on: June 13, 2019, 07:31:18 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #217 on: June 13, 2019, 08:44:19 PM »
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

Your design looks like a fail, but its not a replication of any of my designs.

Why don't you stick to what works ?

                   floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #218 on: June 13, 2019, 08:45:58 PM »
Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

It would work if steel was used for the center magnet but that also causes it to become harder to remove when the repelling magnets are closer to the steel.
Maybe the center magnet could be two thin magnets with a thin sheet of steel between them to reduce the adding effect.

I think IEC uses something along this line, where there is some steel between the repelling magnets. (laminated if you look close)

What's IEC ?

           floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #218 on: June 13, 2019, 08:45:58 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #219 on: June 13, 2019, 08:51:27 PM »
@Lumen

What are the polarities in your drawing ?

      floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #220 on: June 13, 2019, 08:53:36 PM »
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.


How do you conclude that with the 3 Newtons increase ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #220 on: June 13, 2019, 08:53:36 PM »
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Offline lancaIV

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #221 on: June 13, 2019, 09:03:59 PM »
#217 : IEC
https://overunity.com/18188/iec-earth-engine-first-magnet-motor-installed-in-las-vegas/msg535155/#new
#219:  15 N - 11,75 N = 3,25 N force difference or increase

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #222 on: June 13, 2019, 09:24:48 PM »
Hi Floor and Norman6538,

Been following your detailed work. I whipped up a quick sketch of a mechanism for moving the shields. The idea is to make a push slider which the trolley hits when it gets almost near the end. This of course would have to depend on the strength of the magnets and actuation distance needed. Thinner magnets could maybe help. I do not have enough hands on experience with your model so I do not know where the magnet starts to switch from shielding to repulsion( the most likely sticky spot). Maybe this will inspire another idea if it's not feasible.

Instead of the push slider another idea is using a compliant mechanism like the "Airplane" which creates a snap action toggle.

https://www.compliantmechanisms.byu.edu/flexlinks

Thanks DreamThinkBuild.

I appreciate your taking the time to do the drawing.

But please don't assume you know how or why these devices function.
          Your design is no good in this application.   
Because it entails installations and removals of the shield magnets BEFORE
 AND WHILE the other magnets are in motion.

Don't know how you missed this point. 

Sorry If I seem harsh, but your miss understanding is leading people off into a completely wrong direction.
                                   NOT GOOD.

   Done correctly 

1. The shield magnet is removed ONLY after the output magnets have completely finished closing together and are at a stop.
2. The shield magnet is reinstalled ONLY after the output magnet have completely finished expanding and are at a stop.
3. No other way !

You may not see why this matters, but then, as I said, apparantly you miss understood / assumed the hows and whys.

    Also
There is / are no sticky spot/s, if it's done right.  Exception: at very close proximity there can be a very minor stickiness
due to domain re-orientations.  This is entirely different from what is classically called "the sticky spot"
There is no / are no sticky spots, in  the respect the words "stick spot" typically refers to,  in attempted magnet OU devices.

These designs are not attempts to conserve momentum or improve efficiency. 
They are work from permanent magnets, designs, not efficiency designs. 

In terms of the typical / conventional approaches,  these designs are / seem wasteful.

But if its OU, it's not wasteful ?
 

             floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #223 on: June 13, 2019, 09:54:43 PM »
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

If you are encouraged because of this outcome, then I suppose this is a good thing.  But compared to what I
have seen in some of these interactions, those are mediocre results.

I can't give any advice as to how to improve your results. I don't have enough details.

      regards
                   floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #224 on: June 13, 2019, 10:12:04 PM »
Thanks Norman

True, it might be more accurate to call the shielding, shunting.  But pretty much any kind of
shielding is shunting.


@ Lumen

The difference between when shielded (shunted)  and not shunted is huge in this
configuration.       https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

Please do an exact replication of it.  But put both actions / magnet s on precision track system.

Note, as a second test, the shield magnets could be N to S on the broad sides, instead of the two
shield magnets being glued together in repulsion (wearing each other out).

                 Sorry if I've been testy /  out  of line
                     rough day
                       floor

 

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