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Author Topic: Magnets, motion and measurement  (Read 63498 times)

Offline Raycathode

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #345 on: October 13, 2019, 07:55:26 AM »
A  working magnetic motor  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtxjyD01lo

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #345 on: October 13, 2019, 07:55:26 AM »

Offline citfta

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #346 on: October 13, 2019, 01:27:02 PM »
Sorry but it is not a working magnetic motor.  It has been investigated and it was found the electrical controlling system was contributing power into keep the machine running.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #347 on: October 13, 2019, 02:19:53 PM »
"it has been investigated ":

What has been investigated  ?

" Magnetic force input / Magnetic force output " ratio. !?

"Magnetic force input + electromagnetic force input / Magnetic force output ". ratio.  !?

electro- magnetic controler :  " pure" DC, pulsed DC,AC ? Measurment method.  ?

electro-magnetic controler with-/ out. feedback circuit.  ?


When we see this JLN LAB demonstration as " repeatable fact" the " balance gain" by linear experiment. :

Using for " linear track"  (espacenet archiv William Putt )

or how "translate : " translatory." as one from the 3 physics freedom states " to rotatory :360° forward or backward movement. ?


http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/2magpup.htm

included Naudins link how probably with success to use this " repeatable fact". :
http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/mppprop.htm

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #347 on: October 13, 2019, 02:19:53 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #348 on: October 13, 2019, 05:58:59 PM »
Ok, then needs to be investigated, before taken seriously. This thread is also about measurements, i didn't see much measurements there.

What people often don't realize, is that overunity is about maximum efficiency, so it also often needs high precision. I also wrote this in another thread.

PS I estimated that when citfta could reduce the force of shifting the shield magnet to 2 ounces, then he may have overunity. To achieve that would likely be very difficult though, as he already uses linear movement on ball bearings. It looks like though that in spite the movement is on ball bearings, it takes quite a force to move a magnet there, even if no forces affect it. Like moving towards the shield magnet may not have any force at all, it is at least 3 ounces, as if it always requires 3 ounces to move a magnet there. I don't know. But even if he can reduce the shifting to 2 ounces, his scales would likely have not enough precision to show the overunity, as the final calculations error with the scales he used would likely be +/-1 ounce, not better. Unless he perhaps tests the scales and shows that they have a higher precision, that these scales very unlikely have.

One more thing. Measuring forces when moving towards the right magnet is correct, as what one needs to know is the force at various distances from the right magnet. But the forces at different distances should be measured when the left magnet stands still, because otherwise the force of friction would be added to the force, as if it were an output force, while it really is an input force.

As i said, the higher precision scales used in physics experiments similar to the ones citfta used, are called "force gauge", and they cost $50 and up.


Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #349 on: October 13, 2019, 08:11:25 PM »
If One is so inclined, so as to accurately take measurements of the energy present in a
set of magnet interactions.

Don't take it lightly.

This can be an elaborate and time consuming process.

When poorly done, it is as bad as, or worse than no measurements at all.

                               floor

   see the PDF files attached

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #349 on: October 13, 2019, 08:11:25 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #350 on: October 13, 2019, 08:33:15 PM »
1.The presenter should video document the METHODS used
during the measuring process.

Because, there are so many ways to botch measurements... the presenter would be wise, to do a video which demonstrates the technique to be used for EACH action to be measured.....before the actual measurement sets are taken.  This will save the presenter, a lot of time and frustration.


2. Each measurement should be taken 5 or more times, and an averaged value,
then used in the calcs.


3. Write every measurement (in a chart which was prepared for that purpose).

    see example chart below
 
    a graph would be optional / nice

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #351 on: October 13, 2019, 08:47:25 PM »
I recommend as well, that the experimenter, design / print out, a set of pages
just to write down the measurements on as they are taken .

5 measurements of each force applied and displacement that resulted.

as few as 5 or as many as 25 measurements per magnet action.

3 input actions and one output action to measure.

5 x 5 x 3 = 75 (3 Inputs) ?
                   and
5 x 25 (1 out put) = 75 = as maybe as many as 150 measurements total (typical).


              best wishes
                       floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #351 on: October 13, 2019, 08:47:25 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #352 on: October 14, 2019, 12:17:39 AM »
5 measurements, well that is. We need at least 5 measurements of the repelling output force. Better more, near the magnet where the force is the greatest, better to measure after every 2 mm, as the force changes the most there. Now, when we add the energies (work, work is energy) for all these small distances, the error increases. Taking average of several measurements, decreases the error. Depends also on the precision of the scales. Maybe as many measurements each time, as many distances we measure?

The magnetic force should decrease inverse of the distance in square. But in the reality it may differ, depends on the shape of the magnets, etc, so it cannot really be calculated, thus it should be measured after every small distances. Unless we perhaps see how it decelerates.

To do it with all the measurements, and to do it rightly, is really a great task by itself. Even when the actual device is the most simple.

And now we who only do here blah blah, don't do any experiments ourselves, only talk. One person does experiments, maybe two, several others do blah blah. I hope that i did more than talking though, that there has been some use of that which i wrote.

That is, when one does any measurements, then it at once enables many to talk, and find what was wrong, and whatever. It is though that, when one does no measurements, then such experiment should likely be rejected at once. When people talk, this means that the experiment was accepted, citfta did a great job.

The error calculation, when calculating the worst value, and then the best value, then the difference is the error. The problem is though that we need to add many energies at different distances, so if we calculate with the worst values in the scales error range, and then the best, the error will become very great, when we need to add many values. The matter is though, that when the forces are different, then the errors are likely more random, that is, they are not all to one side. Then it may be enough to calculate the error of the greatest energy, maximum value minus minimal value, and consider that to be the error of the whole calculation. In case of the citfta's experiment, if we consider the error of the scale 1 ounce, and even if we consider the maximum energy shifting the shield magnet 50 mm, then the calculation error will still be 28 mJ.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 10:58:04 AM by ayeaye »

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #353 on: October 14, 2019, 01:24:02 PM »
So, ayeaye, we are only doing actually " blah blah " :

do you a. not  b. think that some of us did c. not their " home work" about
magnetic and electromagnetic force,energy,work,power in their past ?


http://www.victorcassar.com/ims.html
http://www.imsolution.com.au/fluxgraphs-entry.html

JLN LAB "push & pull"- demonstration 1998. !
Permanent magnet force/ energy/ work "attraction/repulsion" potential distance related

compared
with exemplary electro-magnets :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820817&CC=US&NR=4345174A&KC=A#

"....... The Operation of the inventive engine 10 wil now be decribed.  ..... "
2 x https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery  per electro-magnet = pure DC

By " pulsed DC" induction  !?

Electro-magnet with capacitive band-/foil- condenser winding and " pulsed DC" induction  !?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20040226&CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1#

Electro-magnet with capacitive coils-condenser winding and " pulsed DC" induction. !?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Envez&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search


Rotoric electro-/permanent magnet wheel :
only 16.,17.18.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Oskar+becker&IN=Oskar+becker&CPC=&IC=

18.                         "  THE POWER REQUIREMENT.  ......... ONE ELECTROMAGNET.    "......
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3826970&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en


Compare : http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id10.html
                   http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id11.html.   " torque out for Watt in "  :)


 
I spoke with him more than an hour via phone,now 2019 : Keith Kenyon R.I.P.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=14&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19711005&CC=US&NR=3610974A&KC=A#

idem : now 2019: R.I.P.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20081118&CC=US&NR=7453341B1&KC=B1#

William J.  Putt :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=William+putt&IN=&CPC=&IC=

Horst von Heyer
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=Von+heyer&CPC=&IC=

Some researcher are " old school" : copying and working with different colour pencils and doing abstracts to concrete  !
"Permanent magnets" have their advantages but also disadvantages as " power source"  !

Fixed or variable speed ( R.P.M. and torque in Nm ) output  linear or rotatoric motor concept !

I hope for you that their written " blahblah" helps by your own development. !
Electro-motor power density prediction : 40 KW/ Kg. !

Your "permanent magnet" power density prediction/target. ,ayeaye. !?

The Flynn brothers worked over 25 year to optimize their PPM concept. !
Working with patience and concentration and precision. !

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=parallel+path+flnn+research&oq=parallel+path+flnn+research&aqs=heirloom-srp..

https://studfiles.net/preview/8199619/page:2/
"PAGE 10. Additional Observations : 

finite element analysis : real force conformity versus physical divergence = syntax error


Why they went back in their magnet material use : from Neodym to ferrit ceramic magnets.  ?

Ernie Esters : modular multi motors and/ or modular multi generator couple  on one shaft :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19801111&CC=US&NR=4233532A&KC=A#



Sincerely
OCWL
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 08:34:45 PM by lancaIV »

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #353 on: October 14, 2019, 01:24:02 PM »
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Offline kolbacict

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #354 on: October 14, 2019, 03:51:41 PM »
why does not it work?
https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #355 on: October 14, 2019, 07:04:55 PM »
So, ayeaye, we are only doing actually " blah blah "

I prefer to do one thing.

I just actually wrote how to measure, the simplest way. I'm not an expert in measurements in mechanics of course, but i can do it the simplest way. And, there was a use of it, i did calculations that showed that citfta got no overunity, i hope there was a use of it for citfta, and others who do similar experiments.

Measuring many times, well, there are all standard deviations and things. Yes, i can calculate these too. But this is only like, when hand error caused different measurements. The greatest error there comes from the scales i think, and when measuring the same value many times with scales, the error may be systematic, that is, always the same. An error is more random with scales, when measuring different values. The real error of scales can be found like when weighing known weights, but for that there have to be several different weights, finding the greatest error. Partly because of the nature of scales, again, measuring only one value, even when doing that many times, does not do it more reliably.


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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #355 on: October 14, 2019, 07:04:55 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #356 on: October 14, 2019, 08:40:05 PM »
why does not it work?
https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA

Because there is no overunity in that thing.

You may try to replicate my experiment instead  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 , if you have an old computer fan and an old CD. The drawing explaining why it should work  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg . Again, it depends on the shape of the field, it does not work in the Coulumb model, but a real magnetic field differs from that, and when it differs, it should work in theory. As i said, it should be replicated with measuring the peak force, and triggering not dependent on the hand movement. But even when there is overunity, it is likely not enough to overcome friction.


Offline shylo

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #357 on: October 15, 2019, 10:13:24 AM »
I don't believe that drawing is correct.
I believe that the n and s in a magnet are isolated from each other.
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.
artv

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #358 on: October 15, 2019, 10:45:13 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjAQUkHuTn8
when the energy for pulling the stick is taken from the outside, (electricity, electromagnet) controlled by the hall sensor, the drum rotates.apparently, the energy from rotation and the energy for pulling a magnetic stick are equal.
dead end way?

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #359 on: October 15, 2019, 10:56:25 AM »
I don't believe that drawing is correct.
I believe that the n and s in a magnet are isolated from each other.
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.
artv

How to say, this drawing is really not a correct depiction of any magnetic field. It is just to show the concept. It doesn't work with the Coulomb model. Coulomb model is like both poles having a separate spherical, that is symmetric field. But a real magnetic field differs from the Coulomb model. And if the field lines are more parallel to the axis between the poles, then there may be enough asymmetry to enable overunity.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:32:35 PM by ayeaye »

 

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