Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: Tesluh on October 25, 2016, 06:08:02 AM

Title: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 25, 2016, 06:08:02 AM
Trying to build a don smith device and coming up with a proper nst has been a huge hurdle.  how can I tell the difference between a 60 hz and ~37khz unit?  what changes the 60hz primary into 30 plus khz on the secondary, a transistor?  are all nst's high frequency output even though they are called "60hz"?  Having a hard time finding one that isn't gfci, and has access to the center tap without having to take all the potting out.  found the "core" of an nst on ebay (no gfci) but it' just an iron core transformer, I assume that would get me high voltage low frequency if I didn't have the transistor as well?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4000-Volt-30-mA-220-50Hz-Open-Core-and-Coil-Neon-Sign-Transformer-/172373612922?hash=item282244997a:g:cX0AAOSwl9BWGumF

the other option is spend $290 for one from www.amazing1.com kind of pricey for a component to a device that I am not even sure is going to function.

I read an "instructable" on building tesla coils and found out that Transco and France nst's have gfci's that are easily removeable.  Might hunt one of those down and see what they look like. 
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Zeitmaschine on October 25, 2016, 05:45:10 PM
You could ask that strange replication buddy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43hted5YTCw) what neon transformer he has put to use with his Don Smith device replica.

But at least I have found the original Don Smith inverter. It is rated 200W 5 minutes. So no chance it could ever power 10 light bulbs 100W each. Means, if the audience at the presentation has not overlooked a hidden wire (or the light bulbs are only 20W each) then that Don Smith device produces real OU indeed.

Regards :)
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on October 25, 2016, 06:06:42 PM
Trying to build a don smith device and coming up with a proper nst has been a huge hurdle.  how can I tell the difference between a 60 hz and ~37khz unit?  what changes the 60hz primary into 30 plus khz on the secondary, a transistor?  are all nst's high frequency output even though they are called "60hz"?  Having a hard time finding one that isn't gfci, and has access to the center tap without having to take all the potting out.  found the "core" of an nst on ebay (no gfci) but it' just an iron core transformer, I assume that would get me high voltage low frequency if I didn't have the transistor as well?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4000-Volt-30-mA-220-50Hz-Open-Core-and-Coil-Neon-Sign-Transformer-/172373612922?hash=item282244997a:g:cX0AAOSwl9BWGumF (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4000-Volt-30-mA-220-50Hz-Open-Core-and-Coil-Neon-Sign-Transformer-/172373612922?hash=item282244997a:g:cX0AAOSwl9BWGumF)

the other option is spend $290 for one from www.amazing1.com (http://www.amazing1.com) kind of pricey for a component to a device that I am not even sure is going to function.

I read an "instructable" on building tesla coils and found out that Transco and France nst's have gfci's that are easily removeable.  Might hunt one of those down and see what they look like.

Older units are 60hz, large heavy box with 2 porcelain insulators.  That one in don smiths pic is looking like a more modern one and possibly electronicly driven which may be in the khz range of operation. Cant read the specs on that pic Z posted.

Mags
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 25, 2016, 08:25:49 PM
Thank you! Until now I hadn't seen any video of that device making actual power.  Gives me hope mine will someday be able to as well.  Yes all the ones I have here are either steel box or I have a small 12v one that doesn't function repeatably.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2016, 01:01:01 AM
This is what Im seeing in this first stage circuit. Never seen that pic in that detail before.

It appears that the output of the neon transformer is rectified on both output leads, like it is running as a reverse Avramenko plug.  Only one lead can pump the cap at a time. Then I suppose each pump there must be a spark in the spark device to the left which seems to be connected to a gnd screw. I wonder if that screw is normally there or was it added? ???

The screw could be a center tap to the sec in the neon box? Or connected to the AC ground lead.

Mags
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 26, 2016, 02:08:16 AM
after about an hour of trying to read the part number off the nst I found  hm106nd  and ordered one each of these.  they come with the terminal (same as the bertonee don used).

https://www.amazon.com/Neon-Transformer-Signs-Devices-6-5kV/dp/B00OYZSMM0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neon-Transformer-for-Signs-Neon-Devices-120v-50-60Hz-0-7A-6-5kV-50mA-/262467328300

if anyone knows where to find those capacitors in stock I would be grateful.  everywhere I looked that offered them showed no inventory and they are 9 weeks to have them built.  Or similar construction one?  Don could have easily found others and yet he sought out those...
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on October 26, 2016, 02:51:57 AM
after about an hour of trying to read the part number off the nst I found  hm106nd  and ordered one each of these.  they come with the terminal (same as the bertonee don used).

https://www.amazon.com/Neon-Transformer-Signs-Devices-6-5kV/dp/B00OYZSMM0 (https://www.amazon.com/Neon-Transformer-Signs-Devices-6-5kV/dp/B00OYZSMM0)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neon-Transformer-for-Signs-Neon-Devices-120v-50-60Hz-0-7A-6-5kV-50mA-/262467328300 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neon-Transformer-for-Signs-Neon-Devices-120v-50-60Hz-0-7A-6-5kV-50mA-/262467328300)

if anyone knows where to find those capacitors in stock I would be grateful.  everywhere I looked that offered them showed no inventory and they are 9 weeks to have them built.  Or similar construction one?  Don could have easily found others and yet he sought out those...

You could use other caps series/parallel.  Like look for 1kv and configure 4 in series for 4kv. There should be 1kv available. 4kv and up tends to be way specialized. And just like he has 2 of those caps in parallel, it shouldnt be an issue to put together your own caps. So you need 2uf total. If you can find 5uf 1kv caps, then 5 in series which brings us to 5kv for the heck of it. And another bank like that and parallel them you have 2uf. Just an example.  I would stick to poly caps as shown in the pic. They tend to have great characteristics for this stuff.

Mags

Mags

Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 26, 2016, 04:03:07 AM
Thank you, from another close up of Dons actual board I read they were .1uf each 4kv, so .2uf is what I will shoot for.  if it doesn't work I can hunt down the exact ones.  for 5 pcs they were going to be $50 ea!
  Going to order 4 of these and try 2x2 series and parallel for .2uf@6000vdc 
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier-CDE/940C30P1K-F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv1cc3ydrPrF1fw9wOI4QJULLduHe1Tl50%3d
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 26, 2016, 04:30:54 AM
Anyone know what diodes those are?  I have these coming http://www.ebay.com/itm/151368531662 they are 40ns diodes.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Zeitmaschine on October 26, 2016, 11:00:07 AM
Almost the same capacitors, but different brand: 0.1 MFD at 4000 volts (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Siemens-MKT-Typ-B32227-Hochspannungs-Kondensator-0-1-F-4-kV-NOS-/322059799523?)
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 26, 2016, 04:39:10 PM
Good find!  if the ones I ordered don't work I will get those from Germany.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: memoryman on October 27, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
"Going to order 4 of these and try 2x2 series and parallel for .2uf@6000vdc" that will give you 0.1uF @ 6kV.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2016, 05:25:43 AM
"Going to order 4 of these and try 2x2 series and parallel for .2uf@6000vdc" that will give you 0.1uF @ 6kV.

Yeah.  If he uses 2 from that link in parallel it should be good with 2kv headroom.  That is if the caps are only .1uf each in the pic as he says. Just by the looks of them, I kinda lean toward them being 1uf 4kv. They are not small physically either.

The next thing to guess would be the voltage breakdown of the spark gap/suppressor. Diodes can probably be dictated by the cap voltage limits. If the red leads go out to the primary coil, Im not seeing how the primary gets powered by this circuit unless the nst is just a driver for the L and C. That must be it. so the nst freq can determine the LC resonant freq design.  Weird circuit.   I dont think it can be that the nst slowly pumps up the cap till spark, as the primary is across the cap and should be preventing that, I think.  Again, its weird

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on October 27, 2016, 05:32:32 AM
Yeah.  If he uses 2 from that link in parallel it should be good with 2kv headroom.  That is if the caps are only .1uf each in the pic as he says. Just by the looks of them, I kinda lean toward them being 1uf 4kv. They are not small physically either.

The next thing to guess would be the voltage breakdown of the spark gap/suppressor. Diodes can probably be dictated by the cap voltage limits. If the red leads go out to the primary coil, Im not seeing how the primary gets powered by this circuit unless the nst is just a driver for the L and C. That must be it. so the nst freq can determine the LC resonant freq design.  Weird circuit.   I dont think it can be that the nst slowly pumps up the cap till spark, as the primary is across the cap and should be preventing that, I think.  Again, its weird

Mags

Mags

I misread. 2 in parallel is still only 3kv. would need 8 to be .2uf at 6kv

Mags
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 27, 2016, 03:53:31 PM
cmr1a 402104k custom electric is what Don used (x2 in parallel) on one of the boards I saw a close up of.  .1uf at 4000wvdc, i think its a mica construction.  Not saying that only that one will work.  and dang it I will need 8 to get .2uf at 6000v!  4 in series paralleled with 4 more in series, 2x4.  thank you for pointing that out!
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: forest on October 28, 2016, 01:59:33 PM
IMHO You can use any parts , it doesn't matter, just take whatever you have with kV range. The essence is you have to measure LC resonant frequency and the length of secondary to be 4 times the primary. Here is the catch I think.
The secondary is like a mirror of primary with diodes used to pump capacitor.
The first thing I would check is the method used on primary side. It is weak method to charge capacitor with impulses - I would try if it works in such configuration, the performance doesn't mattter. It's usd to pump LC circuit at correct frequency and the spark is the limit. IMHO it may waork in two different modes, I don't know which ose was used by Don. First is continous oscillations on primary are used to pump secondary resonance, the second is discontinous - the pumping is only strong when the spark gap fire. Weird circuit indeed, but the ideas are more clear now when you realize it has two resonances matched.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Zeitmaschine on October 30, 2016, 06:40:12 PM
Radioionic Energy Receiver (http://earthionenergy.forumakers.com/t87-7th-edition-final-v5-4-6-full-disclosure)

That schematic looks strangely similar to the Don Smith device arrangement.

Although I don't think it is the best idea to have an antenna stretched across the room connected to 20.000 volts. :) (C1 is rated 1nF/20kV)
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on October 31, 2016, 04:02:15 AM
has anyone built the above device, would love to see one. 

Can anyone speculate what the lug on the nst is connected to?  would it have to be a center tap or not necessarily.  Still having a hard time finding an nst that satisfies the needs of this circuit.  I did however get one in that showed a nice rising trumpet waveform right out of the box.  I think I ruined it though by using the "ground" wire.  it stopped giving me a nice trumpet waveform after I touched the ground wire to the spark gap.  I also should have recorded how I had it wired up because I am trying so many different configurations and now I cant get it to repeat.   
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Zeitmaschine on October 31, 2016, 10:05:19 AM
would love to see one. 

Radioionic Energy Receiver (http://earthionenergy.forumakers.com/t27-earth-ion-receiver-mk1)

Don't know if mass production is already on its way. 8)
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on November 03, 2016, 06:10:23 PM
very interesting, nicely built. 
As far as my nst searching goes, I found a similar nst to the one shown in the video you posted.  coolneon ng.a108ft  however the ground lug had a gfci attached.  since I ruined it anyway I decided to saw it apart (the resin was rock hard) and see if I could find a way to destroy the gfci without ruining the whole thing.  I was able to get at the center tap wires (I expected it to be impossible) so if I really want I should be able to "make" an 8kv  HF center tap non gfci with built in dimmer.  I am waiting on another one to arrive (the nice thing is they are only $37 ea).  hopefully I can modify it and make the circuit the way I think it should go.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/111994079297?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on November 14, 2016, 10:55:23 PM
had to modify this nst to get it to work but at least I finally have a high frequency nst with a firing spark gap.  need to start tuning the coils.  This will get me started but will continue to look for a better option as far as high frequency power supply.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on November 14, 2016, 11:28:09 PM
Whats the yellow wire to the left on the xfmr? Did you try that as the ground screw alternative?

Glad to see you going at it. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on November 15, 2016, 12:57:36 AM
That is the "ground" wire for if it were used as a neon power supply, it seems loosely attached to the output of the secondary (mohms or kohms resistance) but it is directly connected to ground pin on input plug.  attaching it just like the other wire is now resulted in nothing.  no spark.  there was something very special about the way the Bertonee and that one in that video are built internally.  I just got a different one same part number as the one in the video but different mfg, same threaded stud as the bertonee but no spark when circuit is attached like Don's.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: mscoffman on November 15, 2016, 06:07:06 AM

The reason for the CT center tapped ground in the neon transformers is so there is always +4KV or -4KV from each neon light pole/probe to ground. That way if you accidently
touch between eighter probe of the neon bulb and ground you get only a max of 4K volts rather than the whole 8K volts/nothing.  There shouldn't be any reason you can't design
Don Smith RF circuit to be ungrounded/balanced then in the final transformer secondary have it become ground referenced again.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on November 15, 2016, 03:02:58 PM
Are you saying l1 primary side not grounded and l2 secondary side grounded?  I agree, a ground somewhere on the primary side might help (Don said this was the key to "getting amps" out of the system) but it shouldn't be necessary to pulse the primary coil.  I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) that using both legs back to center doubles the frequency of the output so instead of about 35khz it would be more like 70 kHz.
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Magluvin on November 15, 2016, 11:06:31 PM
The reason for the CT center tapped ground in the neon transformers is so there is always +4KV or -4KV from each neon light pole/probe to ground. That way if you accidently
touch between eighter probe of the neon bulb and ground you get only a max of 4K volts rather than the whole 8K volts/nothing.  There shouldn't be any reason you can't design
Don Smith RF circuit to be ungrounded/balanced then in the final transformer secondary have it become ground referenced again.

Ah, so maybe the spark gap is too high of a voltage breakdown and thats why he isnt getting spark when the yel wire is used.

Mags
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on November 15, 2016, 11:36:20 PM
the last time I connected to the green wire without spark gap it ruined the output of the nst.  I think it shorted some wires in the transformer.  not an option as far as I can tell for getting this circuit to function. 
Title: Re: neon sign transformer confusion
Post by: Tesluh on February 03, 2017, 02:09:24 AM
trying the "tesla coil approach" and found a brand new 60hz steel outdoor nst that has an external gfci (not potted in resin).  Going to do some tests with it and see if it can be used as the power supply.