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Author Topic: Increase the potential energy without any energy  (Read 17519 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2017, 06:46:23 PM »
Your 10V PSU will provide its current at 10V,, how much voltage is needed to move charge carriers onto a plate at 0V,, it takes 0V+ some infinitesimal amount.


As long as the charging voltage is that infinitesimal amount of voltage above the plate voltage charge will move into the cap.
It takes Coulombs of charge to raise the voltage, the PSU will provide those Coulombs at the voltage it is set to,, so 10V @ 1A to charge a 1F cap from 0V to 1V , another 10V @ 1A to take that cap and raise it from 1V to 2V,, and so on. <<== it is the Coulombs that "fill" the cap.


What is the resistance of a cap with no charge to current flow from the source.
What is the resistance of a cap with 99% charge to current flow from the source.


If your source uses 10V @ 1A to charge the cap it is then wasting energy,, if this were water you would have this large fountain happening while filling until the water reached the top,, what a waste unless the fountain is what you want :)


Plot the energy per step while charging both for the cap and that supplied by the source,, use some value of base resistance for the cap so as to not hit that infinite current flow issue,,


To not have this "loss of unused energy" you can either ramp the voltage up from 0 to charge voltage or you can start with a very small capacitance and increase the capacitance until charge quantity is reached.
A coil storing some of that current "rush" in the magnetic field uses what would be wasted and then returns the field potential into the cap as the cap charges and its resistance to current flow from the source goes up,, is this the best way??? not sure but it does work fairly well.

I didnt get into it with them back them about charging a cap from a power supply, but it was said that there is the loss there and I just accepted it then as i was in awe of the 50%loss. But Im making a new connection with that idea as you posed it to me.  Here is my point..


Do you agree that we lost 50% in the 10uf to 10uf cap to cap deal?
If so do you also agree with the much smaller loss when the charged cap is 10uf and the receiving cap is 1uf? If not, you need to run the numbers again. Or you need to explain how and why the cap energy calculators are bunk. ;)

Now if you agree with both questions, then say we have a 1Fcap at 10v and a 1uf cap at 0v. Pretty much the 1uf cap will see the 1F 10v as a huge reservoir very very similar to the power supply. If the 1F charges the 1uf to be the same voltage in the end after cap to cap, you may need a meter that reads to the 4th decimal or just thinking possibly 5 decimals to see the voltage drop of the 1F cap. Just guessing but iI think Im close. In the power supply there are output caps that are no where near 1F. So it may be possible that the 1F can charge the 1uf quicker. Just again speculating an educated guess. for simple argument sake.  Now if you do read a voltage drop in the 1F cap, of which what is left would be the same voltage the 1uf cap charged to, then calculate the original energy in the 1F at 10v and then calculate the energy left in the 1F and then the 1uf and add them. The loss would be incredibly small compared to what you are saying about the power supply charging the cap.

So now Im convincing myself right here right now that no, the cap charging from the power supply to the empty cap should not be lossy at all but very small in the least. In my 1F example, there will not be that voltage drop you speak of that would be any different than the power supply other than possibly a .001v or .ooo5v or even a .05v difference for arguments sake, of which isnt even close to a loss level as you suggest. In fact, the power supply just may dip more than the 1F cap initially in the charging of the cap. that would and could be looked at with a scope. And I happen to have a 1F 20v car audio cap on the bench and a 10 amp var supply.

So here we may have stirred another possible controversy like the bad claim that resistance was the loss in the cap to cap exercise.  I seem to remember them claiming the loss from PS to cap back then, but maybe that is all wrong also. :o ;)   We may have to look at that closer now. ;D

Mags

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2017, 06:46:23 PM »

Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2017, 09:08:08 PM »

I have a fairly good idea of parts that are not being considered, I have a reasonable idea of the path those forces take,, I did suggest that you look into a Roberval system to help in being able to see some of these interactions.


You have not spoken about HOW the spring gets changed,, you have not spoken about how the changing shape that does not change in volume makes things move, and the input it takes to make the shape change,, whether that is from the container morphing or from the wheel spinning or both.


So ask yourself "HOW" does the spring get changed.  Ask yourself if there is motion needed for that change in spring to happen, then link the motion used and the change in the spring so you can follow the path of interaction.

Roberval is not the same device.

How the springs change ? the springs inside the container ? it is easy, each sphere has an Archimede force on it and a force from the spring attached on it, so the sum of these forces are zero. So it cost nothing to change the length of the springs WHEN the sphere is inside the container. It is like move up (or down) a molecule of water inside a glass full of water on Earth: it costs nothing.

I explained, I calculate the sum of energies for the device without the white disk, and the sum is well at zero. So the springs (of the spheres inside the container) don't need any energy nor give any energy.

Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2017, 05:31:08 AM »

I guess you don't know a Roberval,, they are very fun things to play with,, you can use arms and levers or pulleys and string or gears or a combination of parts,, I made one that used water.

With a Roberval the Noether's theorem is applied so the device can't create an energy.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2017, 05:31:08 AM »
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Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2017, 05:34:22 AM »
The gain in energies you are measuring from L1 to L2 are the same energies needed to go from L2 back to L1.
No, the device moves from the start position to the end position. I never return to the start position, so I don't know where you find in the document I move and the lengths of the springs move from L2 to L1.



This short part describes a change in gradient caused by an external motion, that motion requires a force to go along with it.
This change in gradient is what causes the spring to change in its relative stored potential.
The device I measure the sum of energy is unstable. So I need an external device  (I call it the C_device to be clear) to control it. But this external device is perfect, no friction, etc. and this C_device recovers the energy from the device and gives energy if it is necessary, it is there only to control and in the same it counts the input/output of the energies. So, C_device counts the equations I wrote, only that.

Then by your definition as soon as the spring and sphere are removed there is no stored gain or loss since that condition is relative to the other spheres\springs\walls.


You also chose an arbitrary orientation for the observation of the spring, this is fine providing you keep using the same reference frame, which you do not when you do not also include the required changes on the spring and sphere to go back from L2 around the white wheel and back to L1.


The gain in energies you are measuring from L1 to L2 are the same energies needed to go from L2 back to L1.



This short part describes a change in gradient caused by an external motion, that motion requires a force to go along with it.
This change in gradient is what causes the spring to change in its relative stored potential.


If you are thinking about an oscillating system where the change of deformation is a natural event then the usage of the observed change in the spring stored potential will act as a damper to the system, it will slow it down,  this then would be your input.   
This could be done with a heat gradient as well,, many ways of doing it BUT the source for the gradient must be included in the energy calculations,, this does not mean that YOU as the "operator" need to pay the cost, only that the cost is shown and understood.


Calculate the energy to deform the container,, if it is a natural event then you would calculate the full energy of that event,, say geothermal heating,, how many BTU's are available then becomes the limit on what you as the operator could extract.

The device don't oscillate. I describe the start position of the device and the end position. The device don't return at its original position. I win an energy from L1->L2. I don't need to calculate the exact energy I win because with my theoretical device it becomes logical. I explain my thinking: the sum of energy is conserved without the white disk. And after, I count the differences. I don't need calculations to prove something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_calculus

Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2017, 03:11:35 PM »
I don't extract the energy from one spring but all the springs of the spheres that must be move out the container to let pass the white disk (and the spheres must be put inside in the same time, but the lengths of these springs are lower). The energy is extract from the springs. I move out a sphere AND in the same time I move in a sphere behind the white disk, because the volume must be constant.

I'm logic, look at the equations. And I transform a complex problem in a simple because I take simplification: no mass, no friction, volume constant, spring with a constant force. I use simple laws of physics.

"After you have taken the spring\sphere energy out it is now at a low energy condition,, you must put it back in to continue,, so now you have a higher energy state in front and a lower energy state behind,,," not at all, you forget the work of the walls. Have you understand the device without the white disk ? The potential energy lost by springs are won by the walls, the sum is well constant with the white disk, I calculated it with integrals.

And with a theoretical mechanical device, the sum of energy must be constant, it means, the sum of energy can't be negative too.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2017, 03:11:35 PM »
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Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2017, 04:43:44 PM »
You don't understand. The device is with the white disk always. It is for understand a different easier device: without the white disk, like that it proves the sum of energy is conserved, it proves there are no others energy than the work of the walls and the potential energy of the springs.

1/ Device number one: without the white disk. It proves the sum of energies is constant. The principle is correct.

2/ Device number two; with the white disk. I calculated the sum of energies from the data of the device number one. Look at the equations. I took in account,:

- the potential energy of the springs at start and at final, reduces in comparaison to the device number one because there is the white disk, reduces of the same value at start and at final (the force of the springs don't depend of their length)
- the work of the walls, is the same than the device number one
- the extra energy from the difference of length L1>L2
- that's all, the white disk don't need (or give) an energy
- move out and in the spheres don't need (or give) an energy

When I speak about the negative energy it is to note that the sum must be constant, not positive AND not negative. Because there is no friction so the energy is in work in something or in a potential energy.

Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2017, 05:35:14 PM »
"You are NOT describing the how's,, how does the spring\sphere move down from L1 to L2,"

I use an external device (called it C_device for control device). C_device is a perfect device, no loss. It control the device because my device is unstable. The C_device gives the energy my device needs and recover the energy it can. It is not very important, with what you recover the energy, when the sum of energy is not zero, you can use it like you want.

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2017, 05:35:14 PM »
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Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2017, 08:03:03 PM »
Thank you.


Now can you tell all of us what those exchanges are for the c_drive,, sure it is ideal and suffers no losses itself,, but it will need to supply energy to move the sphere\spring down from L1 to L2 so it can then extract that exact same amount of energy out of the spring\sphere at L2 and then insert that spring\sphere back in at L2.


Your c_drive is the YOU I refer to as YOU putting in the energy.

C_device receives a sum of energy equal to 'e', like I wrote in the equation. 'e' is the sum of all difference of length (by unit of force) of the springs (only the spring which a sphere is moving out/in). I don't need to calculate all 'e' because for a small angle of rotation of the device (example 1°) it is logical the difference is always L1>L2. So 'e' cannot be equal to zero for a small angle so the sum of energy is not conserved, the goal of this device.


Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2017, 09:41:50 PM »
When energy is not conserved what you are being told is that you are NOT including all things.


Energy will ALWAYS be conserved because energy is a tool made by man so that things that are not the same can be compared,, it is a tool,, this very tool is telling you that you do not have all things considered.


Your c_drive needs to move the spring\spheres down from L1 to L2,, it needs to add that energy INTO the system so that it can then take it back OUT,, this is what the tool of energy is telling you.
It is telling you what the c_drive is doing,,it is putting in "e" and also taking "e" out.


O.U. will only be O.U. until the unknown component is identified, studied, and understood, then it will be a known process.

Pass from L1 to L2 = win an energy. My device don't need in theory an external device. So in theory, the sum of energy is not conserved. And it will be the same in practice with an external control device.


"Energy will ALWAYS be conserved " is like the image.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2017, 09:41:50 PM »
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Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2017, 04:31:51 AM »
The springs don't increase their potential energy, they decrease... I win this energy L1>L2.

Well then,, I guess the only thing left for you to do is to build

No, this theoretical device is there to prove the conservation of energy (like others conservations) is bullshit. I have anothers ideas complex to calculate but easier to build.

Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2017, 08:53:39 PM »

How can you measure something if the ruler you are using keeps changing its unit of measure?
If you measure and cut this 2X4 to be 24 inches long but when you go to measure that 2X4 the unit called 1 inch is now not the same distance\length,, can you cut both boards to the exact same length so that they can fit in the exact same place?


Energy and its description,, its constraints,, its unit of measure is the same thing as the 1 inch of a tape measure,, it has to stay the same so that you can make sure that the 2X4's are the same.


What you have demonstrated is that you are misinformed on what the law of conservation of energy is.


You measure your device and you come up with a gain of some sort,, the conservative component of ENERGY is then telling you that something ELSE is also happening that you have NOT noticed, included, understood, measured,,, whatever,, there is something else happening that you need to find.


The conservation of gravity,,, magnetic fields,, electric fields,, momentum,, all of those,, what do you think they are saying?  they are saying that if they are NOT conserved,, not the same before and after,,, then something else has happened,, they are telling the observer that they need to find another interaction with the system they are observing beyond those things they have observed.


There is not a "law" that states you can not get free energy,, the law's will help you identify what is paying the cost for YOUR free lunch.


All the laws and formulas can not do one thing,, there is one thing that they can never do,, do you know what that is?
All the laws and formulas can only do one thing,,, do you know what that is?


They can never ASK a question,, the only thing they can do is answer a question.

I explained all the device, I gave all the informations to understand it. I'm not here to discuss about human's believes (laws that you call) but to prove with an example it is possible to create the energy, destroy it. Even the word 'law' is crazy. Noether proves only that a continuous function of a device cannot create an energy, it's all, mine is not continuous.

Where I spoke about change units of measure ...

The energy won by the walls is the energy lost by the springs of the spheres that don't move out/in BUT there is the energy from the springs that the spheres move out/in. Hey ! that's all, nothing more. No friction, no delay due to the mass, volumes are constant

Maybe people don't want to understand, they prefer to believe.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2017, 08:53:39 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2017, 06:46:35 AM »

How can you measure something if the ruler you are using keeps changing its unit of measure?
If you measure and cut this 2X4 to be 24 inches long but when you go to measure that 2X4 the unit called 1 inch is now not the same distance\length,, can you cut both boards to the exact same length so that they can fit in the exact same place?


Energy and its description,, its constraints,, its unit of measure is the same thing as the 1 inch of a tape measure,, it has to stay the same so that you can make sure that the 2X4's are the same.


What you have demonstrated is that you are misinformed on what the law of conservation of energy is.


You measure your device and you come up with a gain of some sort,, the conservative component of ENERGY is then telling you that something ELSE is also happening that you have NOT noticed, included, understood, measured,,, whatever,, there is something else happening that you need to find.


The conservation of gravity,,, magnetic fields,, electric fields,, momentum,, all of those,, what do you think they are saying?  they are saying that if they are NOT conserved,, not the same before and after,,, then something else has happened,, they are telling the observer that they need to find another interaction with the system they are observing beyond those things they have observed.


There is not a "law" that states you can not get free energy,, the law's will help you identify what is paying the cost for YOUR free lunch.


All the laws and formulas can not do one thing,, there is one thing that they can never do,, do you know what that is?
All the laws and formulas can only do one thing,,, do you know what that is?


They can never ASK a question,, the only thing they can do is answer a question.

So with all that said, are you done looking for OU? Sounds very much like it.

Mags

Offline activ25

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2017, 07:45:10 AM »

right here
where ? you don't pointed where I could make a mistake, just write your believes.


Enjoy those 2 free crackers with a slice of cheese,, I don't think they make much of a lunch :)
not more than your believes...

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2017, 12:59:07 AM »

Never have really been looking for O.U.,, it does not exist,, free energy and or power to me on the other hand,,,  :)


I use my "creativity" and ask questions,, I try and use the tools available to answer those questions and I keep looking and playing.
Take the cap to cap dump thing,, great example of when there is NOT a good answer of one just being thrown out there so they do not have to admit that there is a problem they have no clue about,, they being any one that is concerned about NOT having an appropriate answer.
The simple math shows that there are not enough charge carriers to support the voltage needed with twice the capacitance,, it is all that simple, the question of what is NOT being used and thrown away in THAT condition,, well there is not an answer for that so far,, I showed with the simple rotary cap that there is a mechanical component that is not used,, and with a cap to cap there is no change in a mechanical process so you might argue that that piece is wasted,, free acceleration with no bounds,, aka instantaneous,, which would make for a lot of heat on the plates themselves,, until they are superconducting kind of plates,,,,,  speaking of which these new super-duper-super-caps,, they can take a lot in really fast without so much of the heat problem so maybe that part is already taken care of,, as far as where the lost energy has gone,,, leaving it still as an unknown.


I have seen and played with to many anomalies,, things doing, for some range, things that they should not,, then trying to ask the correct questions so that that short range can be optimized,,,, that is harder than I think it should be,, for me so far anyway.


Back to the tools,,,  conservation is a fabulous tool to use,, energy is just an agreed upon "magic" number,, ok it comes from agreed upon empirical values,, so the weight of a kg is agreed upon and set,, the length of a meter,,  time,, all these things are set to a uniform measured thing and methods of interaction,,, Energy is useless,, it is only a potential and you hold an infinite amount of energy in the palm of your hand,,, making it do some work is the trick,, making it go from POTENTIAL work into REAL work


Just because a spring may have a changed PE does not mean you can use it unless there is a motion that is caused by the a change in that PE,, an exchange,,,  now sometimes I wonder if the cap issue is in the unbounded acceleration,, f=ma and the acceleration will be in both directions speed up and stop,,, now I am rambling on,,,


But no,, I have not stopped looking :)

First you write....
"Never have really been looking for O.U"

Then lastly you write...
"But no,, I have not stopped looking"

Is it that you have not stopped looking because you were never looking in the first place?

Im putting my ideas for the possible OU by way of speakers together since I last posted on it. Im going to put it in its own thread. Was talking to a guy I had just met at the bank I use. We just struck it up talking Trump. but it got into a myriad of things. He plays guitar and builds his own amps and seems to have a fare knowledge of speakers and ported boxs. So we got into it till the people at the bank said we are closing.. But through that I managed to eureka some ideas on it along the way in the conversion from speaker to circuit.  Im even more convinced than I was before. The guy is an atty and does some pat stuff also. I gave him the plausibility of you cant pat a device that is over 100% eff and he said, that isnt true. So I refereed him to the SAWS document that specifies so. No free energy pat. No claims of tachyons. etc. He got my number and is interested in checking it out. He agrees with me that if it is so that free energy  or overunity really does not exist then why make such statements that most dont even bother to read. Its like this. The saws document is there either for discouraging doing so as to not clog up the system with wasting time on going through them for approval purposes unnecessarily, or it is there to discourage the initiative of trying to get a pat on the real thing. Well thats a conundrum in a way. For the first possible reason why they have the saws doc, it neglects the possibility of 'new' technological advancement beyond what is already known. Well new stuff comes out all the time and who are they to say that new ideas are just still same ole same ole. And if its the second possible reason, then we here know what that reasoning is. So either one is oppressive any way you look at it.

He was also intrigued with the speaker ideas I have presented. He never considered what the eff of a speaker actually was as per its sensitivity rating, as I believe most do not, and he wholeheartedly agreed. The only person I have heard say that they knew something was Vidar. But his claim of the 96db speaker is only 1% eff did not expand to the db level ratings that are closer or even 100% as I did. And then said that it is still no good. Im not buying it till I see it first. So Im going for it. ;) It should be an interesting thread. I am first going to  state that it will be heavily moderated to keep it clean. If someone wants to contribute, then I prefer helpful contributions that are lending toward a positive outcome. I will also make a second thread where arguments against the main thread can be posted so that the main thread stays clean for interested guests and members. So it is not oppression of free speech as long as there is the venue of the second thread to do your do.

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Increase the potential energy without any energy
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2017, 11:10:27 PM »
I look because I like looking,, not for anything in specific but just at what happens.


It is in a way like your speaker setup,, that is a huge medium with all sorts of internal and external interactions,,  what or who is to say that if you give to nature just right she won't return that with interest?  If you don't look you will never know,, if you don't see that does not mean something is not there,, so if some person before did not see,,, then what :)

Activ asked me to stop posting in this thread. So this is my last, just to respond to what you replied... Ill make it short.

Yeah  there are a few thing going on in a speaker and how it reacts to its applications. The speaker has to overcome its suspension and move its mass and then move, pressurize and depressurize the air.   P vs Pae are both actual power of electrical input and energy in the air as pressures and expansion. The are not different in how they calculate energy use. So new thread coming.

Mags

Mags

 

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