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Author Topic: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets  (Read 11613 times)

Offline Low-Q

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3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« on: September 02, 2016, 04:41:31 PM »
Hi all,


I have started the 3D printing of a structure that will fit 9x magnets that measure 26mm in diameter and 6mm thick.
Earlier I made a simulation of a GE-rotary magnet motor that actually gave 120%...but unfortunatly impossible to build.
That earlier design had an inner and outer gear with gear ratio 5 : 4. Both rotors measured the same torque in oposite direction, but the inner rotor spun 20% faster, and therfor 20% more energy that could counter the energy in the outer rotor that was holding it back.


No I have started to build one, but with different configuration of the magnets. I know this will not work, but I want to learn more about magnets through practical use.


In the pictures there is two different positions of the inner and outer gear.
Magnet 1, 2, 3 and 4 is placed on the inner gear, and magnet A, B, C, D, and E are placed in the outer gear.
For each 45° rotation of the inner gear, there is 36° rotation of the outer gear. A gear ratio of 5 : 4.


I look forward to see what actually happens when I place those two gears together. They work very fine as a fluid pump when powering it with a motor.... How will it work with magnets? LOL ;D


This is the idea.
Initial position (picture 0-0 degree):
Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 wants to go nowhere, but repels D and attract B (Weakly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Moderate/strongly)


After 45° counterclockwise rotation of the inner gear and 36° rotation of the outer gear.

Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 repels C, attracts B (Strongly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Strongly)


I would guess that the difference in torque in these gears are 4:5, resulting in zero output. The 3D printed structure will be finished in 5 hours from now. Placing the magnets takes 30 minutes with hot-glue. Whish me luck  :D




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2016, 06:43:50 PM »
"nitial position (picture 0-0 degree):
Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 wants to go nowhere, but repels D and attract B (Weakly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Moderate/strongly)"


I was wrong about magnet 3. It is neutral about midway between C and B. Tested it now with a poor 3D print.
I had to start over with some more infill and slower print. This proves that what one might think about magnets behaviour is not allways right  ;)
The new model is finished in about 4 hours from now....

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2016, 09:29:05 AM »
Here is pictures during printing, some of the neo-magnets I have extracted from defektive speakers, and the final product.
Actually, the photo of the printing process was my first print of these gears - the one that got very poor quality.


So, what can I say other than being ringt that it does not work. The magnets are so strong they actually deform the outer gear into an oval shape, but if there was excess energy of 20%, it would have no problems in go selfrunning - but it doesn't. Fair enough. Yet another proof that magnets can't do work.


Webby, can you make a simple drawing of what you suggest?


Vidar

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2016, 09:29:05 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 11:01:09 PM »
Thanks for your post Webby.


I actually have a second hand hand ge-rotary oil pump that I bought on Ebay several years ago. It is quite small, and tricky to handle with my magnets. As soon as I put magnets on the outer and inner gear, these gears tend to lock up due to terrible friction.


I must find a way to solve that problem - for example using the 3D printer to print a mold of inner and outer gears, that I fill with iron powder mixed with low viscosity resin (You can buy expensive 2/3 litre + 1/3 bottles with this thin resin and hardner that is used to squirt into gaps in cracked concrete).


Gears can be made larger and therfor easier to handle.


Now I need to spend a small fortune on such resin and iron powder....Doing everything for a good cause, right?  ;D


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2016, 02:00:36 PM »
I used to work with laser copiers and printers for 10 years, but those printers did not have metal spheres in the toner - only organic toner.
The toner you mention was probably used to attach the actual printing toner into a drum that was charged with a chorona wire. Those printers and copiers was nasty stuff as they spewed out O3 (Ozone) from the corona wire.
These days they usually use a charger foam roller that charge the image drum. A LED-bar with thousands of small IR-LEDs makes sure the surface of the image drum get correctly charged where the organic toner get stuck into, and then transferred into the paper that has an opposite charge.


I think the easiest way for me is to spend a few bucks on iron powder.


There is however one concern using external magnets to magnetize the gears. The magnets will also cover the emtpy space between the lobes of the outer gear, and i addition, the iron will not act like a magnet will do, since the field will mainly follow the iron, and not "send" the magnetic field into emty space between the lobes.


There will be a magnetisation, and interaction between inner and outer gear, but the torque readings will have the same difference as the angular velocity of the gears. So the potential energy that rest in the gears will be equally, and oppose each other. The result is a dead motor.


This is "proven" by simulations in FEMM, and also proven by experiments.


The gears must be magnets to make this work, but the outer gear must be a magnet that rotate in the opposite direction of the rotation of the gear in the same rate, so the magnetic field will point to the same direction all the time regardless of the outer gears orientation.


It is possible to use 5 magnets that by a transmission will keep the same orientation all the time, but the magnets will oppose the rotation as the torque in them will counterforce any change in direction.
The sum of it all will still be a dead motor.


Wouldn't it be fun to find a way around? I'll work on that one.... :-)


Vidar

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2016, 02:00:36 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2016, 08:22:49 PM »
I remember very very well several years ago, when I had my moment of EUREKA - and some time later I realized that I was wrong. Sooooo close to bust the nature of magnets, when it hit me so hard. The terrible smell of a terrible mistake.
After that I have been extremely sceptic to free energy through over unity.
However, I do now look at this more like something to believe in, even if my rational mind know I can't achieve anything for free.
My wife has her angels, spirits, and superstition. Really not a rational way of thinking, even if she too has a rational mind, but something to believe in. Persuing dreams and whishes - even if it's out of reach.


Enough preaching  ;) - I must do some more simulations, but frankly, I do not think my computer is programmed to make over unity calculations...maybe this is all in vain :P


I'll be back


Vidar

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 04:10:58 PM »
I just got a crazy idea.
I think I might have solved the problem - just an idea this far, and my brain cannot simulate real world physics just by using whishes and hopes.


I made a simulation in FEMM using 5 outer magnets where all points north or south in the same direction.
The inner 4 magnets have south or north pointing outwards.
This is the basic idea I had a few years ago, wher the torque of the outer and inner gear/assambly was the same, but with different gear ratio.
That ratio of 4:5 would force the inner gear/assambly to "win" the competition between the two gears because it spun 20% faster.
As we know from physics, energy from a spinning device is torque multiplied with revolutions per second.


The problem was to keep the magnetic orientation in the same direction for the 5 outer magnets - independent of the orientation through the revolution.
I found that impossible to achieve without loosing that extra energy. Because each magnet have a counter torque, and if we add that sum of countertorque, and add counter torque of the whole outer gear/assambly, the total energy through one revolution is the same and opposite as in 5/4 revolution of the inner gear/assambly. So the output will be zero.


I will now call:
the 5 outer magnets: Outer rotor
the 4 inner magnets: Inner rotor




If the magnetic orientation of these 5 magnets on the outer rotor was held there by hand, the whole thing would start spinning - not surpricingly because you add energy by hand.


Now, what if I fix a long rod to each of the 5 magnets on the outer rotor, and put those rods through a common hole some distance away, it will be the rods that keep the magnets orientation fixed, and not the outer rotor - that was the thought anyways, and right here I might have made the mistake.


If I have not made a mistake:
At the tip of the long rods, there will be less torque per distance to keep the mangets in position than letting the outer rotor do it.


If we say the inner rotor is 4cm in radius, and with an angular force of 5N
The outer rotor is 5cm in radius, and with an angular force of 4N
Both those rotors have the same torque in N per meter, but the gear ratio will make the inner rotor stronger.


So, when it comes to the rods that is 100cm long, the sum of angular force at 100cm distance, for each of the 5 magnets in the outer rotor, would be 0.25N, not 5.
So then we got an angular force at 4cm of 0.75N to spare, and not 0. This will force the inner rotor to continue to chase the sticky spot, and continually try to escape the repelling forces


This is in my dreams only - for now. I will print out some parts, and use some carbon fiber rods I have...


Looking forward to yet another fail  ;D


Vidar

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 04:10:58 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2016, 08:53:25 AM »
Working on it...


First I print out the assambly for the outer magnets.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 03:05:09 PM »
I have done some simulations using LUA-scrips (That I got from a very helpful member here - namely broli)


In the picture below, I did some simulations in FEMM. However FEMM only deal with "plane magnetic fields" not fields that come "out of the paper" like it does in by drawing, but the attraction- and repelling forces should be the same principle.


I used steps of 2 and 3 degrees for outer and inner rotor respectively. I had to do the simulation twice so I could get the results of both rotors. I put the outputs in Excel, and summarize them.


Both rotors have almost the same torque, but in opposite directions. That's fine. Because the inner rotor makes 3 revolutions while the outer rotor makes 2.


When I multiply the torque one complete cycle for each rotor, I got more energy out of the inner rotor than the outer (?!!). This is maybe a design fault in FEMM, but the computer simulates an efficiency of 150%!!!


How is this possible?


Vidar


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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 03:05:09 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 12:29:28 AM »
Forget that last picture and post. My mistake was to se the sum of all measured torque readings. Each and individual was + and - 50Nm, but the sum was around 2-3Nm. Deviding this on all 72 samples, and virtually nothing is left.


So I have to stick with the alternative on the previous picture (With all the black long rods)
The individual torque of each outer magnets would normally be in addition to the torque around center of the outer rotor, but with the control-rods that keeps these outer magnets in same direction all the time, will reduce the problem to a minimum.
I will be very cautious about what I say now, because I am most probably wrong.
Just by going ahead and try something that my mind says doesn't work feels wrong, and it feels just stupid to actually go building a prototype of something that physics says isn't possible to do...but that is the reason why I will build it ;D


I will come back and report my findings later.


Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 04:01:33 AM »
Forget that last picture and post. My mistake was to se the sum of all measured torque readings. Each and individual was + and - 50Nm, but the sum was around 2-3Nm. Deviding this on all 72 samples, and virtually nothing is left.


So I have to stick with the alternative on the previous picture (With all the black long rods)
The individual torque of each outer magnets would normally be in addition to the torque around center of the outer rotor, but with the control-rods that keeps these outer magnets in same direction all the time, will reduce the problem to a minimum.
I will be very cautious about what I say now, because I am most probably wrong.
Just by going ahead and try something that my mind says doesn't work feels wrong, and it feels just stupid to actually go building a prototype of something that physics says isn't possible to do...but that is the reason why I will build it ;D


I will come back and report my findings later.


Vidar

With the small rotor moving 1.5 rotations to the larger outer ring rotating 1 the result is zero gain.
Maybe it could be changed so the outer ring with three magnet sets would have the smaller radius and the center ring with the two magnet sets would have the larger radius.
This would have the greater leverage from the increased radius plus the gearing leverage both on the same side providing a gain of 3 to 1 ?


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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 04:01:33 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 01:06:57 PM »
With the small rotor moving 1.5 rotations to the larger outer ring rotating 1 the result is zero gain.
Maybe it could be changed so the outer ring with three magnet sets would have the smaller radius and the center ring with the two magnet sets would have the larger radius.
This would have the greater leverage from the increased radius plus the gearing leverage both on the same side providing a gain of 3 to 1 ?
Thanks for the input lumen. I will try that as long the inner and outer magnets doesn't bump into eachother - they have to be synced in 2 to 3 ratio and out of the way of each other :-)


What I have simulated is that there is the same torgue on two gears that has different size. These gears are connected like in the picture below, and rotate in the same direction but at different speed.
The torque is in opposite directions on those gears. However, a small gear attached to a large gear, and apply the same torque on both in opposite directions, I have a feeling that the small gear will win. That is what I have been struggeling with....


This scenario only applies when the outer magnets are externally forced to stay in the same magnetic orientation.
If I use a gear system that is attached to the outer gear, so the outer magnet can rotate in the opposite direction relative to the outer rotor, each magnet will apply approx 50% more countertorque, so the final torque readings on each rotor as a difference of 1.5 times. In that case, the rotors will not go anywhere because the energy is conserved.


Therfor I had the idea of using relatively long rods that is attached to each of the outer magnets, and let them keep the magnetic orientation instead. Then I release the individual countertorques from the actual rotation. That what I hav been thinking. I am probably very wrong, but the thought bugs me.


I also attach a zip-file containng the .FEMM-file that I am working on. If you want to work with this file, just rememer that the inner rotor is 10mm vertically offset from the outer rotor.
Also remember to simulate torque around 0,0, and therfor move the whole structure 10mm up or down depending on which rotor you want to measure.
Also remember to change magnetic orientation for the outer magnets to 0 each time you rotate.

PS! The arrows on the gears on the picture is direction of TORQUE - not rotation! ;)

Maybe someone will try to build it... I am going to anyways ;D

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2016, 03:33:00 PM »
Made an animation of the concept. hmmm, animated gif doesn't seem to work that well. The local file works on my computer...

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 05:05:07 PM »

Here is a video from my screen...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/IaTF-ofT4AM

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 07:47:45 PM »
Lets print out the parts and see what happens next...

 

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