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## New theories about free energy systems => Theory of overunity and free energy => Topic started by: guest1289 on August 04, 2016, 01:06:32 AM

Title: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: guest1289 on August 04, 2016, 01:06:32 AM
An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Electric-Motor ?

Could this create a self-running-device.

SPECIFICALLY, what I’m wondering is, is there no combination of Electric-Motor and Electric-Generator that will result in the Generator,  outputting more electricity than was inputted into the Electric-Motor  ?

And of course,  applying this principle to  Solid-State-Self-Running-Devices, I'm especially referring to the claim that the Figuera-Device  was self-running when it ran an  electric-motor.
See my following post on the  Figuera thread :
http://overunity.com/12794/re-inventing-the-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-the-infinite-energy-machine/msg489301/#msg489301

(  This also involves energy storage in spinning-electric-motors / spinning-electric-generators  )
____________
So,

- What if you used an Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electric-Motor,  to turn an  :

( 1 ) -  Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electrostatic-Generator( like a Wimhurst-Generator )
Or,
( 2 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Radially-Designed Electrophorus-Electrical-Generator
Or,
( 3 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Homopolar-Disc-Electrical-Generator
_________________
Different Subject
- Could A Device Be Made,  That Would Output A Bigger Electromagnetic-Field Than The Electromagnetic-Field Inputted Into The Device  ?
What about instead of measuring  the electrical-input of the device,  and it's electrical-output,   you measured it's input electromagnetic-field inputted into the device,  and the electromagnetic-field outputted from the device.
Yes I Know,    that the electrical-input should be the exact equivalent of the  electromagnetic-field inputted,   but what if there is some sort of  anomaly occurring,  maybe due to different materials used in one part of the device, to that of another .
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Dog-One on August 04, 2016, 08:35:20 AM
According to Paul Babcock (him, not me), it is possible to build a motor that will produce one horsepower using less than 746 watts of electrical power.  If this is a true statement, you could connect that motor of his to a conventional generator.

A possible improvement to a complete self-running system is to use something like Jim Murray's Dynaflux Alternator instead of a conventional generator.  If those two guys and their devices are the real-deal, then it "should be" quite possible to have a self-running system capable of powering at least a few external devices or charge batteries.

Seems to me though, if one can build a motor that is not also generator and a generator that is not also motor, then these two concepts should be engineerable into a single device that self-runs and produces a usable output.  A good understanding of the necessary geometry needed would put these concepts on the map.  I know there is at least one member of this forum working on just such a solution.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: marathonman on August 07, 2016, 11:07:16 PM
just a little device i came up with that theoretically just might work and might fit the bill.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Magluvin on August 08, 2016, 04:32:42 AM
Just a couple of things..

Back in the early 1900s my great grandfather had such a device, as my grandfather told me many times. He had 2 electric motors connected at the shaft and all the wires wen to small box with a switch mounted to it. Flip the switch and give it a turn by hand and off it went. He had shown it around town. Soon he was threatened by the gov and oil companies. Back then mind you.  In more recent years reading on Tesla, he was working with Westinghouse in Pittsburgh, 60mi from where My Great Grandfather lived, in the town I grew up. Great Grandpa also had dealings with Westinghouse on ideas to improve the air brake systems of the time. So it is possible he knew Tesla.

My Grandfather seemed to believe the answer was in the box with the switch. These days Im thinking it was in the motors, or at least one of them. Before Teslas A/C motors were mainstream, DC motors were well known and used.  So what Im thinking is that possibly at least one of the motors were AC. Had watched a couple vids on Tesla. One was a movie made about him in 1980, and the other was on the learning channel.  Something struck me, and it should have some time ago. The main idea of each vid was that AC was way more efficient than DC. So my question is now, does that efficiency occur in a properly developed AC motor, or even a gen?

If AC can travel greater distances on a wire with little loss as compared to DC, then what of a winding of a motor that has many turns?

As for my Great Grandpas setup on a plank of wood, if he had started it by hand, then I have to think they had some permanent magnets involved. And Id have to say they were not as good as we have today.  In the Tesla movie, near the beginning he was showing Edison a diagram of his idea for an AC generator. And the armature seemed to be a big magnet, showing no wires or brushes.  It was a movie, so we cant say that it was so for sure.

Now the other thing..

Been working with the mechanical resonance with coils and mags.  There was one configuration that when using the same magnets and coils for the drive side and gen side, I was able to get more voltage out(AC in and AC out) than the input.  Working on other mechanical configurations, I have come close to having an output voltage that is close to the input. All still using the same coils and mags for the inputs.  Im still working on these things. Trying different ways of having the coils interact with the magnets for best effect. And the best config to get the higher output voltage compared to the input voltage used the same mags and coils for the driver and gen, but the position of the coil to the magnet for each was a bit off to get these results. In the pics below I show the mag/coil config, then the device in motion with larger N52 mags, and the scope shot of the yel trace is sine input and blue trace is sine output.  The scope shot is not showing the freq of the device. For some reason maybe the noise was affecting it and the freq was just less than 10hz.

So Im in the process of determining if it is resonance that is creating the gain, or is it that a motor doesnt make a good gen, nor does a gen make a great motor either. As in, I position the drive coil for the max movement of the pendulum, then I adjust the position of the pickup coil to show the most voltage.  I know that a voltage measurement is not a sine of greater in than out, but to have an identical drive and gen coil, using identical magnets, to get more voltage out of the gen coil than what is put into the drive coil is not a common thing. And this is very low freq, straight sine wave in and no switching. Putting the 2 coils face to face without the mags shows virtually nill on the gen coil. Low voltages Im working with here.

So to conclude, 2 identical motors connected shaft to shaft is guaranteed to have less voltage out than what is going in. Like is it possible that maybe adjusting the brush angles of one of the 2 motors make it a better gen? ??? ?   Im going for voltage comparison here mainly because I think if the driver and gen are identical electrically and the same magnets for each, if you connect them shaft to shaft and you get more voltage out, then I think that is a great start. A barrier breached as far as Im concerned. If we need to run the drive motor off of the gen output, the gen needs to produce more voltage at the same rpm of the drive motor. And if the gen didnt require more turns of wire to produce that higher output voltage, that is a puzzle we have to solve. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Magluvin on August 08, 2016, 06:43:58 PM
Had some misspellings and wrong words in places of my last post. Was ready for bed.  Cant modify any longer. But you should still get the drift. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Magluvin on August 08, 2016, 11:21:21 PM
Back in the early days of DC motors, the stators were coils along with the armature. This creates a situation where the input polarity did not matter as the stators would produce opposite fields along with the armature, so either polarity of DC input and the motor would turn the same direction. So the DC motors of that kind can run off of AC input also. ;) So an old DC motor connected shaft to shaft with an AC gen could work if the AC gen can provide output more efficiently out at given rpm to the old DC motor. Been thinking on these things for many years and come up with more possibilities along the way. They didnt have electronic parts back then that in my thoughts could have been in the switch box to make the thing special. It would need to be something different in 1 or both motors.

Would probably be good to look into or even build some of Teslas AC gen/motors to see if there is anything more efficient about them.

Just thoughts of the day.

Mags
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: forest on August 09, 2016, 01:55:20 AM
Mags

Maybe you simply need to find a DC motor having more torque then others with the same input power , due to permanent magnets used  ? Try to find the difference. Test shaft in both cases. If shaft can be magnetized/demagnetized quickly and strongly then it can allow some tricks , don't you think ?
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Magluvin on August 09, 2016, 03:25:08 AM
Mags

Maybe you simply need to find a DC motor having more torque then others with the same input power , due to permanent magnets used  ? Try to find the difference. Test shaft in both cases. If shaft can be magnetized/demagnetized quickly and strongly then it can allow some tricks , don't you think ?

Hey Forest

If we choose motors, one as a driver and one as a gen, we have to look at operating parameters to try and get the right ingredients for go. But then if we look at the efficiency of each, we are still below 100%.  Hard to say for sure. I would agree that the motor and gen need to be different from each other somehow.

Like I said before, some may put identical motors together showing losing results and that is that.  So this is what Im trying to point out, no, I dont think that is that, yet. ;D ;)

Some of these EV conversion DC motors have brush adjustments to change performance. So that is something to be considered. The idea that one particular brush setting is not the end all of settings. One setting performs good this way and another setting performs better in other ways. Otherwise why have the settings at all? ;)   This would also indicate that one direction may work differently than the other if there is a  brush setting offset. Like dc motors that need to operate in either direction have brushes basically centered in order to do so equally in either direction. Other motors that are only needed to operate in one direction ever, probably have a brush offset that complements the output of that predestined rotation direction.

I keep leaning toward the possibility of an AC gen and an appropriately designed DC motor with AC phase timing in mind. Possibly. Like for every AC phase peak, the DC motor is in an optimal position to use that  in the most efficient way, eliminating waste. This would most likely be a dc motor using windings instead of perm mags. Just ideas that havnt formed a complete picture for me, yet.

Mags
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: guest1289 on August 11, 2016, 05:36:16 AM
A long time ago I discovered that if I brought a magnet close to a running motor,  it dramatically increased it's speed.   Free-energy ?
- As far as I remember it was a DC power source powering a DC-Motor out of a model-kit or slot-car.
- I just assume that was was occurring was that when I brought my handheld magnet close to the motor, that it's magnetic-field strengthened the magnetic-fields of the magnets already in the motor,  and therefore increased it's speed.
(  There were probably knobs or buttons on the power supply that had settings that I didn't understand enough about,  so that,  and possibly the specific angle at which I brought the magnet close to the motor,  means that it would be too difficult to replicate  )
(  I don't know if this discovery is just a commonly known scientific fact,  or a discovery )

- I only discovered one other person on the internet that made the same accidental-discovery, they posted that discovery in very recent years,  and finding that persons research( webpage ) was so hard to find, that I have not been able to re-find it since  )
-------------------------------

A No Friction Generator,  On The Same Shaft As The Motor
- Say you have a motor comprised of a single-wire which causes a magnetic-disk( or a hollow-cylinder-magnet ) to rotate ( a homopolar-motor ),   OR,  a stationary-magnet which causes a current-carrying-wire-ring to rotate( also a homopolar-motor ),   and also on the same-shaft,   you have another identical-motor to the first,  to use as the generator.
The Reason I chose this generator is because it has no friction in terms of windings, since it's a homopolar-generator.
Now,  What About if you multiply the diameter/radius of the generator by 2 or 3 times,  and yet somehow not increase the weight ( torque ) of the generator at all,  maybe by using kevlar-arms to increase the diameter/radius,   Would This Be Power Amplification ?

------------------------------

Also, I still don't understand why Faraday used a mercury-filled( today they use brine ) bowl for his Faraday-motor,  since he could just have just induced a disc-magnet to spin( maybe not available back then ), or induced a current-carrying hollow-disk to spin etc,   and why it's still often commonly replicated today,  using the liquid.
I assume,  that it's because it was the first discovery/version of a motor.

But now I see these popular DIY very-simple Homopolar-motors made of a single battery, a single small-flat-disc-magnet,  and a piece of wire.
HOWEVER,  The Thing I don't understand is why they run the current through the permanent-magnet( small-flat-disc-magnet ),  I don't get why you run current through a permanent-magnet,  which I think also occurs in the original Faraday-Motor,  it seems like a very strange thing to do.
-----------------------

I don't know why people use anything other than DC-curent ( as smooth as possible, as similar to from a battery as possible ) for their research for any devices on this site, it makes little sense to use anything else.
-  I guess there may be some applications where AC is appropriate.
But specifically, I refer to devices like the Figuera-Device.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Magluvin on August 11, 2016, 06:37:08 PM
A long time ago I discovered that if I brought a magnet close to a running motor,  it dramatically increased it's speed.   Free-energy ?
- As far as I remember it was a DC power source powering a DC-Motor out of a model-kit or slot-car.
- I just assume that was was occurring was that when I brought my handheld magnet close to the motor, that it's magnetic-field strengthened the magnetic-fields of the magnets already in the motor,  and therefore increased it's speed.
(  There were probably knobs or buttons on the power supply that had settings that I didn't understand enough about,  so that,  and possibly the specific angle at which I brought the magnet close to the motor,  means that it would be too difficult to replicate  )
(  I don't know if this discovery is just a commonly known scientific fact,  or a discovery )

- I only discovered one other person on the internet that made the same accidental-discovery, they posted that discovery in very recent years,  and finding that persons research( webpage ) was so hard to find, that I have not been able to re-find it since  )
-------------------------------

A No Friction Generator,  On The Same Shaft As The Motor
- Say you have a motor comprised of a single-wire which causes a magnetic-disk( or a hollow-cylinder-magnet ) to rotate ( a homopolar-motor ),   OR,  a stationary-magnet which causes a current-carrying-wire-ring to rotate( also a homopolar-motor ),   and also on the same-shaft,   you have another identical-motor to the first,  to use as the generator.
The Reason I chose this generator is because it has no friction in terms of windings, since it's a homopolar-generator.
Now,  What About if you multiply the diameter/radius of the generator by 2 or 3 times,  and yet somehow not increase the weight ( torque ) of the generator at all,  maybe by using kevlar-arms to increase the diameter/radius,   Would This Be Power Amplification ?

------------------------------

Also, I still don't understand why Faraday used a mercury-filled( today they use brine ) bowl for his Faraday-motor,  since he could just have just induced a disc-magnet to spin( maybe not available back then ), or induced a current-carrying hollow-disk to spin etc,   and why it's still often commonly replicated today,  using the liquid.
I assume,  that it's because it was the first discovery/version of a motor.

But now I see these popular DIY very-simple Homopolar-motors made of a single battery, a single small-flat-disc-magnet,  and a piece of wire.
HOWEVER,  The Thing I don't understand is why they run the current through the permanent-magnet( small-flat-disc-magnet ),  I don't get why you run current through a permanent-magnet,  which I think also occurs in the original Faraday-Motor,  it seems like a very strange thing to do.
-----------------------

I don't know why people use anything other than DC-curent ( as smooth as possible, as similar to from a battery as possible ) for their research for any devices on this site, it makes little sense to use anything else.
-  I guess there may be some applications where AC is appropriate.
But specifically, I refer to devices like the Figuera-Device.

Adding the magnet to the motor does increase the stator magnet field, and if you flip the magnet over to the other pole it should slow some.  As far as I know the stronger the permanent mags in a motor, the more physical output per input to the armature. Which is logical, as if the internal magnets were replaced with very weak mags, the output will diminish while the input remains the same as before. So there should be an efficiency increase using larger/stronger mags.

The mercury was used to replace the brushes on the outer edge of the disk. Reduction of wear on the rotor edge and lower friction as the brushes needed to be tight against the rotor due to high currents produced and the necessity of very low resistance at the connection. And the brushes on the outer edge has more friction braking power at the outer edge of the disk.  I wouldnt feel comfortable using mercury unless it were a sealed unit that did not allow any to get out of the casing, None.

Mags

Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: guest1289 on August 12, 2016, 01:50:30 AM
The device you mentioned from the early 1900's of your grandfatrher,  and,  the Figueras-Device,  and there were other peoples devices.
They were suppressed,  as people often state,  but I notice that people never state that they were suppressed by the electricity-providing companies ,   which I would have thought would have the most to lose from an  overunity-electricity-generator..............
And, in your grandfathers and Figueras and the others day,  battery-powered-electric-cars( all electric cars ) were at the height of their popularity in the history of electric-cars,  you'd think the electric-car industry of the day,  would have had an interest in bringing overunity-generators to the market,   not to mentioned points in history where countries would certainly have used overunity-generators due to circumstances etc.
______

Below,  are the  diagrams of 4 or 5  electric-motors  I designed to solve a  historical-technical question ,  which was raised by   gravityblock  in the following message below ( different thread ),  the link takes you straight to the exact message posted by  gravityblock   :

http://overunity.com/15978/new-reactionless-motor-from-india/msg459408/#msg459408

It involves   'N-theory'  vs  'M-hypothesis'.

The Challenge,   was to design a fully rotating version of the  M-Device DIAGRAM in gravityblock 's   post .

And,  he said somewhere,  that a solution to the puzzle would be a much more efficient-motor for the market,  and that it's important that the number of flux-lines( of the conducting-wire, or permanent-magnet ? )  cut by the  conducting-wire, or permanent-magnet ?,  are minimized to just one.

(  when I replied to his post, I hinted at my solution, without giving it away fully, I gave a solution which was slightly different to the one I had in mind,   but,   I have one or two ways of proving the exact time and day of when I thought up my solution  )

-  In My-Diagrams below,  they are  Disk-Magnets,  being spun by the current flowing through the wire .
-  And,  where the conducting-wire makes an exact 90-degree turn( an exact right-angle turn ),   that maybe that could be  'Curved-Turn',   and then  'Maybe No'  flux-lines( of the conducting-wire, or permanent-magnet ? )  would be cut by the  conducting-wire, or permanent-magnet ?

However,   now,  I'm wondering if my electric-motor designs would actually rotate,  and I don't know if they solved the  historical-technical question .
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: Magluvin on August 12, 2016, 03:12:49 AM
Havnt built one of these dynamos. But what would interest me is, if the 'magnet spins with the disk', and we get output, then is there drag on the rotating parts when the disk electrical output has a load on it? If it does have drag, what is it dragging against? If it doesnt have drag, then we have a gen that needs no more input with a heavy load than when the input spins the device with no load. Id say thats a good thing.  If it does have drag, again, what is it dragging against? And if it is say the aether that is the drag on the system, then we have a system that 'physically' interacts with the aether.  So what interests me there is the possibility of using that interaction to create propulsion, of a car, bike, plane, etc.

What if we could develop a device that could push/pull on the aether? I might be scared to think about how pushing and or pulling on the aether with enough force to say move a man on a bike, may affect things around  the device doing such. Might not be a good thing. Dunno. Now imagine with the force to move a car. Makes ya think though. Prepare for the unexpected possibilities.

Mags
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: guest1289 on August 12, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
-  In My-Diagrams of the Electric-Motors in my previous post,  the Circles are  Disk-Magnets,  and the Lines-Labelled-X, are wires that have DC-Current flowing through them.
-  The Idea is that the  DC-Current flowing through the wire,  should cause the  Disk-Magnets  to spin.
-  And,  where the conducting-wire makes an exact 90-degree turn( an exact right-angle turn ),   that maybe that could be Replaced with a 'Curved-Turn',   so that  then  'Maybe No'  flux-lines( of the conducting-wire, or permanent-magnet ? )  would be cut by the  conducting-wire, or permanent-magnet ?

However,   now,  I'm wondering if my electric-motor designs would actually rotate,  and I don't know if they solved the  historical-technical question .
______________________

Your reply gave me another idea for these motors however,  like replacing the wires that have DC-Current flowing through them,   with the DC-Current-Carrying-Disks used in the Faraday-Disk-Electricity-generator.

______________________

Your Aether-Drive, could maybe be like a jacobs-ladder which pushes against the tiny-particles that make up electromagnetic-energy and photons ,  except that this jacobs-ladder would have layers/sheets of electricity maybe moving through blocks of crystals measuring 3x3 feet,   and the stability of the craft could be provided by the gyroscopic-force of the rotating-overunity-generator.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 13, 2016, 06:01:46 PM
A nice idea : a motor drives/turns a generator and this drives the motor ....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What should the motor( or as generator) weight and cost  ?

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/400w-dc-motor.html (https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/400w-dc-motor.html)
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/1000-watt-dc-motor.html (https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/1000-watt-dc-motor.html)
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/12v-dc-motor-3000w.html (https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/12v-dc-motor-3000w.html)

Which is the average W/Kg -fob factory- price ? Clearly Voltage and RPM related !

What are the newest power-densities for motors/generators  ? Up to 10 KW/Kg
Based by Halbach-array .
http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/transportation/halbach-electric-motor (http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/transportation/halbach-electric-motor)

+ capacitive winding ?

alternative : http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf (http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf)

http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/emrax-motorsgenerators.html (http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/emrax-motorsgenerators.html)

comparision: http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/pm004_grant_2012_o.pdf (http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/pm004_grant_2012_o.pdf)
Need Decreased Cost     – bring electronic propulsion systems costs below \$8/kW
Need Decreased Weight – bring specific power to 1.3 kW/kg by 2015
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Can such a 10 KW/Kg motor/generator be build under "open source" condition ?
For averaged alibaba gross-selling 10 US\$/Kg "permanent magnet motor/generator" condition ?

Halbach-array patent : 1995 Priority,now free
Helmut Schiller PAM patent: 1999 priority ,free

H`EUREKA PRICE TARGET :
10 KW/1 Kg motor/generator for +/- 10 US\$

PARAMETER 1 : Price/Kg
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/80mm-high-toruqe-400w-dc-permanent_1954847364.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.aFo06o (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/80mm-high-toruqe-400w-dc-permanent_1954847364.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.aFo06o)
f.e.:    10-20 US\$ ea. and 2,5 Kg : the difference the power density
but this is only a manufactoring task

PARAMETER 2 :  Price/10 KW
actually 10 KW price range :
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/10kw-permanent-magnet-generator.html (https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/10kw-permanent-magnet-generator.html)
f.e.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/PMG770-10KW-coreless-wind-turbine-generator_1814177769.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.V1EdLo (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/PMG770-10KW-coreless-wind-turbine-generator_1814177769.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.V1EdLo)

10 KW:  4000-5000 US\$/165 Kg !     ~ 30 US\$/Kg       16,5 Kg/KW

cheaper, example 2 :
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Alternator-10-KW-permanent-magnet-synchronize_60191089002.html (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Alternator-10-KW-permanent-magnet-synchronize_60191089002.html)
10 KW:    700-  800 US\$/108 Kg !      < 10 US\$/Kg    ~ 11 Kg/KW
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TARGET : PARAMETER 1=2  10 KW/Kg/10 US\$
Logic:
if 10 US\$/Kg is possible and real and 10 KW/Kg is possible and real then 10 KW/10 US\$ is possible (but will it become real cause -probably- against political groups interests ?) !

Will anybody ask politicians for permission ? 8) In the worldwide open source scene ?
REPRAP-liberty included ;)

first step to final TARGET :
10 KW/5 Kg/100 US\$ each motor/generator unit

Less weight/volume = less transport costs !

Comparing aluminium price(onced more expensive than gold)
and solar cell price fall over the last decades !
- 90/99 % Material-costs : cheaper product

How fast industrial production costs can fall ?
example :
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mcgehee/presentations/McGehee's%202014%20Energy%20Seminar.pdf (http://web.stanford.edu/group/mcgehee/presentations/McGehee's%202014%20Energy%20Seminar.pdf) page 9
silicon feedstock US\$/W
year   2012      2020
price  0,229     0,014
= more than - 90% in 8 years

This would make this idea the cheapest household electricity source,global
(included Fraunhofer-Institute " 2050 forecast" solar cell KWh price down to 2 US\$cents fall) :

Only published in Germany 1977,from India !

The advantage : builder free RPM decision cause it is -not- a rotoverter !
Higher RPMs = cheaper production costs,generator mechanical friction will in future become neutralized by nanocoating and surface ablation treatment.
The generator starting cycle will be activated by hand/rotating wheel or starter-engine !

Only one inventor is citing this Mukherjee- invention idea.
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For conventional "alternative energy system" developper :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=AU&NR=2006279600A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=5&date=20070222&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=AU&NR=2006279600A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=5&date=20070222&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
from the decription page :
As a result, the voltage output of the permanent magnet ac generator taught by the present invention is relatively constant, from no load to full load. Thus the present invention thereby achieves voltage regulation of a permanent magnet synchronous ac constant speed generator without the use of an external regulator connected to any wound field.

Good for a cheap and simple wind/water power system.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 14, 2016, 01:32:49 PM
Here some information about the production process of high power density electric transducer =
motor/generator,now in legal "open source" status :

f.e. https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5319844A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19940614&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5319844A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19940614&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
Total weight = 15.0 (pounds)
This motor delivered 16 horsepower at 7800 RPM in preliminary testing.
~ 1,5 - 1,75 KW/Kg

to compare with the LAUNCHPOINT Halbach-array motor
http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/transportation/halbach-electric-motor (http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/transportation/halbach-electric-motor)

The difference will be - at first- the production price :
the Unique Mobility(now UQM  https://www.uqm.com/home/default.aspx (https://www.uqm.com/home/default.aspx)  ) version could
become produced for less than  1/10 .

1 KW/Kg/10US\$ is realizable = commercial low cost

As a result, the power capability increases from 23.25 Hp to 40 Hp, providing the highest power rotor magnetic design configuration. In low inertia requirement applications, it is also contemplated that a Halbach motor magnet array with non-magnetic rotor portions, could alternatively be used. However, this configuration results in significantly higher costs that are typically not compatible for most commercial applications.

The need is a modular 3d printable high power density motor/generator design .

http://www.justpressprint.no/3d-models/generator-v2/ (http://www.justpressprint.no/3d-models/generator-v2/)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 KW/Kg/10US\$ is realizable = commercial low cost
An international "1 Watt for 1 Cent" generator challenge !

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/pm004_grant_2012_o.pdf (http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/pm004_grant_2012_o.pdf)
Need Decreased Cost     – bring electronic propulsion systems costs below \$8/kW
Need Decreased Weight – bring specific power to 1.3 kW/kg by 2015

YES WE DO
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: memoryman on August 14, 2016, 04:29:33 PM
First objective 'should' be to demonstrate the concept; this has never been done, suppression claims notwithstanding.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 14, 2016, 04:55:11 PM
If we do /not know the price of invention components we do /not know the later electricity production price !

The next solution is to deliver first a "fixed output power"- later a "variable output power"- system !
The second needs a input/output controller( more expensive) .

If we know the electricity production price we know the commercial system competivity !

Mass production let all components prices fall, conditioning: "no rare" materials used and
all technical product processes are commercial limitation-and license free .

After dis-/advantages avaliation :  Motor/Generator RPMs  6000
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 14, 2016, 08:51:03 PM
Let us -partial- translate this german text by google :

In a conventional generator the field strength B, the length of his head with L and the current flowing through is denoted I, the result is the size of the counter force F, which is exerted on the conductor and thus to the shaft to F = BLI.

If the field strength of the electrical device 2B, the length of its conductor L is and only one current durchfiiesst(flows), corresponds to the thickness of the half of the current flowing in the generator current, is the force exerted on the armature force F '= 2B x L x 1 = LI.

2 This shows that the force exerted on the armature of the electrical device and hence on the driving shaft power is equal to the counter force, which is exerted on the shaft from the conventional generator. The force is generated to act in a direction such that it compensates the reaction force. A stronger current flow provides the required torque to the shaft. Therefore, the shaft and thus the armature are moved on and generates electric power.

In order to flow current through these half the electrical device, half the generator voltage is required. So with is 1/4 of the power generated is lost to engegenzuwirken(compensate) the deceleration force. The remaining 3/4 of the energy generated or slightly less of them are for outdoor use are available.

If the field strength of the electrical device is a multiple of the field strength of the generator, for example, 5-fold, it is necessary that 1/5 of the current generated flows in the electrical device to generate the compensating force. 1/5 of the generated voltage is required for the current flow. Thus, 1/25 or 4% of the energy produced is consumed in the electrical device, while 96% or less of them are for outdoor use are available. In this way it is not necessary that any electrical energy is introduced from an external source in the generator according to the invention for generating electrical energy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                                             Peswiki
Directory: Rotoverter

"Induction motors operate by locking the rotor to the rotating magnetic field of the stator. Most loads do not require the magnetic field to be at full strength to achieve the desired mechanical power output. Lowering the input voltage to the motor with a Variac is a simple test anyone can do to prove this principle. Most drill press motors will run quite well on 60 volts input. Cutting the Voltage in half also cuts the current in half, which cuts the Power input by 75%! Once the motor is Power Factor Corrected for this voltage, the motor will appear to run on NEARLY NOTHING!!!!
And of course, that is the point.

http://www.instructables.com/id/RotoVerter/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/RotoVerter/)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the important difference between the Mukherjee-invention and the rotoverter :
the rotoverter-concept has a rotating rotor/stator-motor coupled to a rotating stator/rotor alternator

Mukherjee described a rotating rotor/stator motor(=generator) and a non-self-rotating electrical device=Steuereinrichtung(~ Controller) coupled to the motor-shaft !

http://physics503.one-school.net/2008/06/law-of-electromagnetic-induction.html (http://physics503.one-school.net/2008/06/law-of-electromagnetic-induction.html)
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 14, 2016, 10:25:02 PM
An "Outlook 2025" :
http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf   (http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf)
5 KW scooter DC motor( or AC alternator)

"active parts"

Copper 0,9 Kg :
alternatively : http://www.centuryelectricmotor.com/Motor-Doctor-Article.aspx?LangType=1033&id=779 (http://www.centuryelectricmotor.com/Motor-Doctor-Article.aspx?LangType=1033&id=779)
cheaper aluminium-production process  http://europepmc.org/patents/PAT/US6551476 (http://europepmc.org/patents/PAT/US6551476)
Iron 1,4 Kg :
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/plastic-bonded-.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/plastic-bonded-.html)
Researchers at Lund University (Sweden) have developed (http://www.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=1383&visa=pm&pm_id=763) a technique for making magnetic components in electric motors from plastic bonded iron powder (PBIP) that can cut aggregate production cost in half and nearly double the output of the motor.
Molding melted plastic and iron particles also enables full freedom of form. Besides higher quality and greater freedom of form, the technique  reduces the number of production steps from about 60 to only a few

Magnets 0,29 Kg :
http://dailyfusion.net/2013/10/iron-nitride-magnets-will-make-electricity-generation-cheaper-and-greener-22428/ (http://dailyfusion.net/2013/10/iron-nitride-magnets-will-make-electricity-generation-cheaper-and-greener-22428/)
“A costing model puts neodymium–iron–boron used now at \$60 per kilogram and our material at about \$10 per kilogram,” said David Matthiesen (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-10/cwru-mab100713.php), associate professor of materials science and engineering at Case Western Reserve and the project’s principal investigator.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 16, 2016, 10:30:53 AM
An "Outlook 2025" :
http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf   (http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf)
5 KW scooter DC motor( or AC alternator)

"active parts"

Copper 0,9 Kg :
alternatively : http://www.centuryelectricmotor.com/Motor-Doctor-Article.aspx?LangType=1033&id=779 (http://www.centuryelectricmotor.com/Motor-Doctor-Article.aspx?LangType=1033&id=779)
cheaper aluminium-production process  http://europepmc.org/patents/PAT/US6551476 (http://europepmc.org/patents/PAT/US6551476)
Iron 1,4 Kg :
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/plastic-bonded-.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/plastic-bonded-.html)
Researchers at Lund University (Sweden) have developed (http://www.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=1383&visa=pm&pm_id=763) a technique for making magnetic components in electric motors from plastic bonded iron powder (PBIP) that can cut aggregate production cost in half and nearly double the output of the motor.
Molding melted plastic and iron particles also enables full freedom of form. Besides higher quality and greater freedom of form, the technique  reduces the number of production steps from about 60 to only a few

Magnets 0,29 Kg :
http://dailyfusion.net/2013/10/iron-nitride-magnets-will-make-electricity-generation-cheaper-and-greener-22428/ (http://dailyfusion.net/2013/10/iron-nitride-magnets-will-make-electricity-generation-cheaper-and-greener-22428/)
“A costing model puts neodymium–iron–boron used now at \$60 per kilogram and our material at about \$10 per kilogram,” said David Matthiesen (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-10/cwru-mab100713.php), associate professor of materials science and engineering at Case Western Reserve and the project’s principal investigator.

How fast the rotational system shall work ,which output-voltage : 6000 RPMs,12000 RPMs or 24000 RPMs ? DC , AC mono/polyphase

How high in costs are then voltage modifying transformer

http://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/ (http://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/)
The final thing to mention is the dreaded ‘C’ word: COST! For some time now planar transformers have been disregarded as being too expensive. Contrary to popular opinion, the costs have significantly reduced in recent years through cheaper material costs, as the market grows, and improved manufacturing techniques. It is common for a 5kW planar transformer to cost in the region of \$23 nowadays, and in volumes of 100k+ prices below \$10 per piece are easily achievable. Moreover, in the 2kW-30kW power range, the use of pre-formed copper ‘lead-frames’ in single and multi-turn forms can achieve virtually any desired turns ratio at low cost, allowing rapid design iteration and ultimately improved time to market.

Acceptable !

Untreated motor/generator bearings works 20000 hours (full load) by 3000 RPMs

Although this embodiment has been described in relation to an exemplary device such as a transformer, the claimed invention may equally well be utilized in other types of electrical devices where internal heat is a problem, such as motors, modulation transformers, etc. The size of the transformer is not of concern, it may vary from a small transformer used in switching power supplies to power transformers used in electrical distribution systems. Further, the frequency of the electrical current within the devices to be cooled is irrelevant, e.g., 60 cycles to 400 cycles operate the same thermally. High frequency transformers have higher copper losses due to skin effects. This additional heat may also be removed by the thermally conductive strip as set forth in this invention.

When applied to electrical motors 30, as shown in FIG. 5a, pieces of thermally conductive strip 16 are placed between windings of the motor 30 or interleaved into vertically stacked motor laminations 32, as shown in FIG. 5b. The internal heat from the motor laminations 32 and windings 36 is conducted from the interior of the motor 30 to the outer portions where the heat is then dissipated through the motor case 34 to ambient atmosphere.

system material weight (Schiller scooter motor 3000 RPMs 2KW/Kg based) for each 1 KW output
(linear calculation,ultra-low friction treatment http://www.bufo.ru/eng.htm (http://www.bufo.ru/eng.htm)  or similar and nanocoating )
and F1 motor/generator /F2 "controller unit" 1/2 magnetic field force relationship

3000 RPMs :   ( 0,5       x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                  after 20000 h full load bearings change     or treated bufo.ru NUFM:  after 80000 h
6000 RPMs :   ( 0,25     x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                           10000                                                                                                  40000
12000 RPMs :   ( 0,125   x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                             5000                                                                                                  20000
24000 RPMs :   ( 0,0625 x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                             2500                                                                                                  10000

Shall the system work permanent (8766 hours/year) or
periodically and by fixed output power or variable output power :
winter permanent for heating and  rest periodically ;
only some hours chargetime per day
et cet ...?)

Some years later combination with http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsenergylett.6b00029 (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsenergylett.6b00029)
(monoatomic or diatomic gold nanocoating ?)

At first the LAUNCHPOINT Halbach array motor numbers does impress ,but calculating down the 7hp/1,4 lbs and 8400/7800 RPMs teste results to 3000 RPMs let us reach 3KW/Kg,less more impressive !

I wrote some days before about a 6000 RPMs system dis/advantage avaliation:
6000 RPMs :   ( 0,25     x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg        per KW-output

and this f.e. are 2,5 Kg (~ 0,5 x 3 x 1,5 ~ Mukherjee 3000 RPMs version ) transformed material
and the industrial costs ea.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/80mm-high-toruqe-400w-dc-permanent_1954847364.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.aFo06o (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/80mm-high-toruqe-400w-dc-permanent_1954847364.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.aFo06o)

Clearly the system can also work under 48000/96000 RPMs conditioning,the wished work hours and bearings change are the only barrier !
Something like a "magnet battery",portable.
untreated                                                  treated      bufo.ru NUFM   bufo.ru GEO+
24000 RPMs :   ( 0,0625     x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                             2500                          hours full load                     10000
48000 RPMs :   ( 0,03125   x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                             1250                                                                       5000            12500
96000 RPMs :   ( 0,015625 x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW                               625                                                                       2500              6250

For comparision
Dr. Pavel Imris calculation of his electric generator (older version)weight :
first KW 11 Kg,each KW more 3,5 Kg !   production costs: 32 Euros/Kg

Next step for the Mukherjee-generator development:
there is a need of a starter -soft or hard drive(r) !

Low RPMs = by hands/body                                                                               High RPMs: battery or flywheel +  electric motor /mechanic

Industrial Mukherjee-turbine range starter:  http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/concept-compact-twocycle-cogenerating-pistondriven-turbine-to-deliver-60-efficiency.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/concept-compact-twocycle-cogenerating-pistondriven-turbine-to-deliver-60-efficiency.html)

for portable devices ?

2016 power density limit : http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)

Now it is to demonstrate the working principle of the Mukherjee-device !
A 100 W output generating assembly will be good enough to show the potential !

first step to final TARGET :
10 KW/5 Kg/100 US\$ each motor/generator unit

if                       6000 RPMs :   ( 0,25     x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg        per KW-output
and                   12000 RPMs :   ( 0,125   x 3 x  1,5 ) Kg /KW

10 x ( 0,125 x 3 x 1,5)/10 KW
Induction Coil Coating Increases Generator Output by One-Third
–Coating the induction coils of generators with a proprietary material increases their output by one-third using the same amount of fuel.

the   10KW/5Kg/100 US\$ motor/generator unit will be at first a 12000 RPM-system
TARGET 2:    1 Watt for 1 Cent

12000 RPMs : untreated bearings full load work      5000  hours
bufo.ru  NUFM treated                       20000
bufo.ru  GEO+                                    50000            ~ 5 years permanent

12000 RPMs  10KW/5Kg/ 1000 US\$ motor/generator unit electricity production price:
with GEO+                   1 KWh < 1 US\$ Cent
untreated                               < 1 US\$ Cent

12000 RPMs   10 KW/50 Kg/ 1000 US\$ motor/generator unit electricity production price :
with GEO+                  1 KWh < 1 US\$ Cent
untreated                                < 1 US\$ Cent

12000 RPMs     1KW/5Kg/100 US\$ motor/generator unit electricity production price :
with GEO+                   1KWh > 1 US\$ Cent              +/-  2,5 US\$ Cent
untreated                               > 1 US\$ Cent             +/-   4,0 US\$ Cent

12000 RPMs  10 KW/5Kg/ 100 US\$ motor/generator unit electricity production price :
untreated                    1 KWh < 1 US\$ Cent (bearings change and costs included)

TARGET 1:          1 KWh for 1 Cent

The "1 KWh for 1 Cent" is easier to reach than the "1 Watt for 1 Cent" !

With or without Gurus : http://www.agragamiglobal.com/2.html (http://www.agragamiglobal.com/2.html)

Where is ultra-/super-precision needed,where not !
Rare-/special material or not !
High- down to low-/no-skills !
Patent-saved or "open source" the technology/materials(important for industrial mass production) !

"1 KWh for 1 Cent" competition(production price,not selling !):
wind
http://aveuropa.net/index.php/the-energy-converter (http://aveuropa.net/index.php/the-energy-converter)
solar
http://aveuropa.net/index.php/stromerzeugung-mittels-solarzellen-aus-polymerwerkstoffenmanagement (http://aveuropa.net/index.php/stromerzeugung-mittels-solarzellen-aus-polymerwerkstoffenmanagement)
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: darediamond on August 17, 2016, 06:57:11 AM
An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Electric-Motor ?

Could this create a self-running-device.

SPECIFICALLY, what I’m wondering is, is there no combination of Electric-Motor and Electric-Generator that will result in the Generator,  outputting more electricity than was inputted into the Electric-Motor  ?

And of course,  applying this principle to  Solid-State-Self-Running-Devices, I'm especially referring to the claim that the Figuera-Device  was self-running when it ran an  electric-motor.
See my following post on the  Figuera thread :
http://overunity.com/12794/re-inventing-the-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-the-infinite-energy-machine/msg489301/#msg489301

(  This also involves energy storage in spinning-electric-motors / spinning-electric-generators  )
____________
So,

- What if you used an Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electric-Motor,  to turn an  :

( 1 ) -  Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electrostatic-Generator( like a Wimhurst-Generator )
Or,
( 2 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Radially-Designed Electrophorus-Electrical-Generator
Or,
( 3 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Homopolar-Disc-Electrical-Generator
_________________
Different Subject
- Could A Device Be Made,  That Would Output A Bigger Electromagnetic-Field Than The Electromagnetic-Field Inputted Into The Device  ?
What about instead of measuring  the electrical-input of the device,  and it's electrical-output,   you measured it's input electromagnetic-field inputted into the device,  and the electromagnetic-field outputted from the device.
Yes I Know,    that the electrical-input should be the exact equivalent of the  electromagnetic-field inputted,   but what if there is some sort of  anomaly occurring,  maybe due to different materials used in one part of the device, to that of another .
First of all, you can not use Readymade Electric Motors and Generators to achieve with ease overunity power generation.

You must at least make your Motor yourself.

And if you wanna get say 5000W of Horsepower equivalence using 100W or lower, then you must utilize Twisted Serial Connected Multifilar (NOT BIFILAR) to make your Air core High Voltage (minimum of 500v DC) Motor Coils.

Best is to arrange your coils in axial so as to use 2 sides of the coils. Neodymium Permanent Magnet is what must be on your rotor. Use N52 grade of neodimium P.M.

You must connect your coils in Series. This is the part of the Secrets.

You must use High Voltage because Lenz do not have high grip on a coil powered with high Voltage.

You must use thin gauge like 0.31mm AWG30 or SWG28 to make your twisted Multifilar Coils.

You do not need any power from the Generator.to keep it going. Just simply harvest the amperage energised back emf using High Voltage High Frequency Fast Recovery or Fast Switch.or High Frequency  Diode like HER208 http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=AS_20160816203440&SearchText=HER208

The rule is if iu supply 500V to a coil, you should expect 5000v kickback or back e.m.f voltage. And that means you will need a stepdown transformer and Additional high frequency diodes to get the back emf  at low voltage and return it back your battery or SuperCacitor Bank.

The Stepdown transformer Primary must be wound with Twisted Multifilar Wire as well to get the best results.

Best to use Very thick gauge in the secondary of the Stepdown Trafo to get low voltage as low as 9Vac but high amperage and use your high frequency diode to rectify it and then pass that 9VAC to a Powerful Step Up Converter which is being Sold here http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=200004727&initiative_id=AS_20160816203335&SearchText=dc-dc+600w+boost+converter

Just add in series the 1KVDC diodes to match in 20 fold your supplied voltge to your coil because itnis good to have excess safe rannge.

You can additional apply Garry Stanley Lenzlesss Motor Coil connection style where he split one coil into 2 and wind both in Same direction and connect them in Parallel or Wind in each in opposite directions and connect them in series.

Now as.for your Generator Coils or Alternator coils, make sure you use.very thich gauge to mke it coils and you must arrange them in axial too. Neodymium Permanent Magnet must be used here and N52 is the best grade to putnon your Rotors.

Here also, you can apply Chris Hykes Lenzless Generator Coil Configuration which he normally called "Bucking Coil"

What is done here is to split your Gen or.Alternator Coils into 2 and wind in Opposite directions and connect there leads in parallel as well.

However, two leads will be joined together and one High frequency diodes leads one of the remaining 2 leads to a dc capacitor.

Attached is a cercuit you need to link each coil in your Axial Gen or Dynamo or Alternator together.
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: lancaIV on August 17, 2016, 01:37:35 PM
darediamond:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=FR&NR=2112768A5&KC=A5&FT=D&ND=3&date=19720623&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=FR&NR=2112768A5&KC=A5&FT=D&ND=3&date=19720623&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
it is modular ! More discs = more power !

Small or bigger ,lever advantage included nr 26/ 27 /28 :
from 27. some sentences translated :
If, for example, one meter wide radius of the rotating plate, or an engine long lever arm, the effect of produced magnetic force is about ten times on the axis of rotation.  At two meters large radius or two meter long lever arms is the effect of the generated magnetic force to the rotational axis about twenty times larger.  acting on the axis of rotation forces are equal masses multiplied by the number of magnet groups, thirty magnet groups respectively three hundred times at( 1 meter disc), for example. six hundred times(2 mtr disc).  It may act on the same axis now more of these sets of magnets and magnetic extension several group rounds, so that the sample value of three or six hundred further reproduced.

1 mtr radius á 10 X magnetic force x 30 magnet groups = 300x force amplification
2 mtr radius á 20 X magnetic force x 30 magnet groups = 600x force amplification
For 1 disc arrangement !
More discs= more kinetic power
The "Secret":
The power requirements, whether for a pulse or attraction for many, remains constant even if the number of pulses up to several thousand attraction is minute because the attraction pulses occur in order in fractions of seconds. So it never occur more attraction pulses simultaneously. The power generator has therefore always to supply only the current for an electric magnet.
feedback circuit

This lever principle is also the reason why the wind power tower becomes so big !
http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-biggest-wind-turbines-4154395/ (http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-biggest-wind-turbines-4154395/)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using your delivered e-magnet circuit which results should we expect ?

The e-magnets ( rotor or stator or rotor and stator) with capacitive windings :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2009154492A2&KC=A2&FT=D&ND=3&date=20091223&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2009154492A2&KC=A2&FT=D&ND=3&date=20091223&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
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But here now begins the hard work to combinate physics,engineering and technics to reach the wished result : save and cheap power production !
Which material,weight,hardness,new-used(scrabb),precision,tools, et cetera .... for the motor part.
Then the right generator DC,pulsed DC,AC - Voltage,RPMs ........ for permanent or only periodic use !
And there are motors which need starter help and also self-starter.

Many electricity user ( I probably too) whose want to get cheap energy would become "TILT!" if
they would have to translate this paper theory -by DIY manner- to a real working machine drive :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=19810224&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=4253053A&KC=A&ND=5 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=19810224&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=4253053A&KC=A&ND=5)
or
and
here -to see- the mechanism complex outside the motor-stator/rotor :

Technical Standart : 1976  ???
2016:
FUZZY or mad logic ? "neuronal learning software" controlled drive

Recitating :
You must use High Voltage because Lenz do not have high grip on a coil powered with high Voltage.
[0038]    To start the motor 28, ignition switch 55 causes battery 54 to supply electrical power to control module 56 to initiate the turning of rotors 30a-d. In one embodiment, the battery voltage is converted to a minimum of 10 kV through an ignition coil in order to start the motor 28. After motor 28 has started, electrical power generated by alternator 50 sustains the operation of the control module without an external power source. Alternator 50 also charges battery 54 as necessary.

Garry Stanley related:
and circuit http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5911-garry-stanley-pulse-motor.html
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: guest1289 on December 19, 2016, 12:02:24 AM
Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?

Are  'Charge-Separation'  based  electricity-generating  devices like  the  'Electrophorus' ,  'Leyden-Jar',  'Capacitors',  'Wimshurst-Machines',    more powerful  than  common-generators.

For  example,   if you use  'x-amount'  of  energy  to drive  a   'ROTARY-Designed-Electrophorus' ,   and you use the same  'x-amount'  of  energy  to drive  a   common-generator,   which would produce more energy.
_________________

On the other threads on this site it does seem as though SUCCESSFUL    Solid-State-Free-Energy-Generators(  'concepts' )  are now  being  successfully  regularly  replicated,  ones that  just use coils( and cores? ),  so I assume that because of that there would be little reason to try anything  non-solid-state  .
Title: Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 03, 2017, 02:35:28 AM
wow, so there a lot that should be said on this thread....
where to begin?

Motor + Generator = Output
thermodynamics said this is impossible with 'closed systems'.
What about 'open systems'? Well, thermodynamics does not cover this area, such is free game.

What is the difference?  Well, the difference has been notably identified in the context above ^^^^

Let's look at a standard motor and generator.
The question came up about AC/DC.
Let me tell you now that ALL motors and Generators are A/C.
a DC motor or DC generator, is simply an A/C motor or generator with an added commutator to make it DC.
This knowledge comes from dissecting every motor and generator I have ever come across
as well as straight from the horses mouth: Said by Tesla - the man who INVENTED the MOTOR AND GENERATOR!!!

These are 'closed systems', no two conventional motor and generator combinations will produce more
than is required to keep the system running.
Ohm's law, and its' derivatives cover this extensively, with respect to low voltage induction.

The system becomes 'open' when voltage potentials exceed that of the system boundaries insulative potential maximum.
At this point, the system is directly connected to the environment around the machine.
Can the theory of Thermodynamics close this box? sure, if we had the ability to calculate the energy potential of
every atom or molecule within the radius of the electric field......
But if we did, what we would see is an energy potential well that exponentially exceeds the output of the machine.
thus, any such 'open system' can draw an amount of energy greater than that which initiated the process.
E=mc^2

There are several such systems already around us, (nuclear power keeps your lights on) but they are masked, and hidden in plain sight, while the indoctrinated educational system tells us such is "impossible".

As it pertains to electrostatic machines, These are inherently 'open systems', they rely on the ionization potential of two moving charges, and the capacitance of the atmosphere around them (which is comparably infinite)

The "input energy" of these machines is defined by a frictional coefficient.
and ONLY this frictional coefficient.

The frictional energy drain of moving the charges, in no way shape or discernible form, relates to the energy required to bring two OPPOSING charges together.
--- a process which is self propagating!!!
+ attracts -
if separated in motion:  + induces more -, and - induces more +!!!!
such induction does not ADD to the frictional coefficient, but SUBTACTS from it.

This occurs with any opposing force, but there is a distinction.
lets use magnetism as a closely related example -
north and south attract each other, but once there, there Is a potential energy barrier to overcome to separate the two forces.

An electrostatic machine avoids this negative 'attraction' (or repulsion from the other perspective) by placement of a Neutralizing Bar.
therefore, the gain in energy is only in a positive direction to the rotation.

Electrostatic machines are inherently 'overunity' with respect to a 'closed system' induction generator.

Is it truly a violation of Thermodynamic Theory? No. It simply does not apply in the way we use the theory.
or more accurately, we are not advanced enough to apply Thermodynamic Theory to an 'open system'.

The net result is the same, is requires less energy to induce electrostatic (ionic) charges than is gained from discharging them.

In the same manner that it requires More energy to induce electric charges, than is gained from discharging them.
This is because we are drawing from the atomic potential well of all the molecules involved. shortening their lifespan (decay rate).
E = mc^2
With a conventional Generator, we are forcing more electric charge onto the nucleus than naturally exists, thus lengthening the lifespan of the copper atoms in the coils.

electrostatic generators are indirect 'solar power'.
The stars evolve the atoms and molecules,
electrostatic induction unevolves them, resulting in high electric potentials.

So to compare the two types of machines, is like Apples and ....... their seeds...
How many seeds are in an Apple?  How many Apples are in those seeds?

Take a volume of space, add up all the potential energies of all the atoms and molecules in that space.
Then give that volume of your environment an 'electrical value'.
This is the size of your battery, the electrostatic machine simply drains that.

The electrophorus is basically the same thing, it just has an exponentially higher frictional coefficient.

because of the constant rubbing contact.

Note - that a properly designed electrostatic machine need not make frictional contact to induce the charges!

The "N-Machine", or Homopolar Motor/Generator, is more closely related in technology to its' cousin, the conventional electric generator.

Brute Force vs Natural Processes.

This distinction is very important.
Brute force will never = OU