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Author Topic: Real Water Power that could be the game changer  (Read 9201 times)

Offline markdansie

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Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« on: July 14, 2016, 03:48:33 PM »
Osmotic Power
Although the research is still in its infancy, if I was to give an award to a technology with the most potential to bring about massive change it is this.I doubt if it can achieve the the 1MW per square meter due to material and conductor issue,s but even 1000th of that power output would be impressive. Using solar desalination the water can be reused. This is real water power[/font]
http://revolution-green.com/electricity-generated-water-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane/

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 01:40:12 AM »
Osmotic Power
Although the research is still in its infancy, if I was to give an award to a technology with the most potential to bring about massive change it is this.I doubt if it can achieve the the 1MW per square meter due to material and conductor issue,s but even 1000th of that power output would be impressive. Using solar desalination the water can be reused. This is real water power[/font]
http://revolution-green.com/electricity-generated-water-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane/

Well that is one of the best i have heard of in a long time.
Even at 1kw an !square! meter,being so slim,you could put 10 modules together for a 1 cubic meter cell,and still put out 10kw.
Im sure i could find space for that on the side of my home.

I have a small desalination plant at home that was given to me by my boss,when he fitted the larger one to his boat. It will desalinate 1 ltr of sea water a minute,and only uses 480 watts to do it.
I see a looped system here ;)
Now,where to get some of that material Mark?.


Brad

Offline markdansie

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 01:45:15 AM »
Well that is one of the best i have heard of in a long time.
Even at 1kw an !square! meter,being so slim,you could put 10 modules together for a 1 cubic meter cell,and still put out 10kw.
Im sure i could find space for that on the side of my home.

I have a small desalination plant at home that was given to me by my boss,when he fitted the larger one to his boat. It will desalinate 1 ltr of sea water a minute,and only uses 480 watts to do it.
I see a looped system here ;)
Now,where to get some of that material Mark?.


Brad


I think they are still figuring out how to mass produce it with consistency. The material itself is cheap.
Some big questions remain like how long will the material last, how much maintenance etc.
It does open the way for a lot of research into other materials and production methods


Exciting times we live in
Mark

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 01:45:15 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2016, 12:41:07 PM »



   I think the tinman is over excitable, I reckon it is something to be deployed
   where a river meets the ocean. Perhaps the tinman has a river and an ocean???
           John.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 01:21:11 PM »

http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html

https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


"Statkraft estimates it spent over ten years and more than 100 million kroner (about $12 million USD) in research funds to help develop one of these techniques, pressure retarded osmosis (PRO), in the prototype facility at Tofte."


Much money,many days research : only for the functional prototype !


"According to Friso Sikkema, senior specialist in power generation and renewables at DNV Kema, the amount of potential energy contained in such processes is 'substantial'. The osmotic energy contained in 1 m³ of seawater amounts to around 0.75 kWh."

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 01:21:11 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline markdansie

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2016, 05:14:40 AM »
http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html

https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


"Statkraft estimates it spent over ten years and more than 100 million kroner (about $12 million USD) in research funds to help develop one of these techniques, pressure retarded osmosis (PRO), in the prototype facility at Tofte."


Much money,many days research : only for the functional prototype !


"According to Friso Sikkema, senior specialist in power generation and renewables at DNV Kema, the amount of potential energy contained in such processes is 'substantial'. The osmotic energy contained in 1 m³ of seawater amounts to around 0.75 kWh."


Thanks for the information.
I think this is where their calculations fall down given the power source is less than 1 kWh per cubic meter or ton of water. You can only extract what the power source allows. Like good triple junction solar cells can pump out kilowatts per square meter if the solar source is multiplied in intensity


Kind Regards

Offline tinman

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 03:46:30 PM »
http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html

https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


"Statkraft estimates it spent over ten years and more than 100 million kroner (about $12 million USD) in research funds to help develop one of these techniques, pressure retarded osmosis (PRO), in the prototype facility at Tofte."


Much money,many days research : only for the functional prototype !


"According to Friso Sikkema, senior specialist in power generation and renewables at DNV Kema, the amount of potential energy contained in such processes is 'substantial'. The osmotic energy contained in 1 m³ of seawater amounts to around 0.75 kWh."

You are referring to pressure retarded osmosis,where as Mark is referring to electrodialysis-two very different systems.

This new membrane that the guys Mark linked to,is far more efficient than the organic ones used today in the electrodialysis process. I think they were talking in Megawatts of power per square meter,not 0.75 kWh per cubic meter as with pressure retarded osmosis.

Quote: In reversed electrodialysis a salt solution and fresh water are let through a stack of alternating cation and anion exchange membranes. The chemical potential difference between salt and fresh water generates a voltage over each membrane and the total potential of the system is the sum of the potential differences over all membranes. It is important to remember that the process works through difference in ion concentration instead of an electric field, which has implications for the type of membrane needed.

So electrodialysis(the one Mark has posted) produces electricity via ION exchange-much like a fuel cell,where as pressure retarded osmosis creates a pressure that can be used to drive a turbine to produce power.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 03:46:30 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline minnie

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2016, 05:09:00 PM »



   Read on a bit more and see the natural battery, there they mention
  5 million square metres and in reality you'd probably need to at least
  double that!

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2016, 07:18:23 PM »
You are referring to pressure retarded osmosis,where as Mark is referring to electrodialysis-two very different systems.

This new membrane that the guys Mark linked to,is far more efficient than the organic ones used today in the electrodialysis process. I think they were talking in Megawatts of power per square meter,not 0.75 kWh per cubic meter as with pressure retarded osmosis.

Quote: In reversed electrodialysis a salt solution and fresh water are let through a stack of alternating cation and anion exchange membranes. The chemical potential difference between salt and fresh water generates a voltage over each membrane and the total potential of the system is the sum of the potential differences over all membranes. It is important to remember that the process works through difference in ion concentration instead of an electric field, which has implications for the type of membrane needed.

So electrodialysis(the one Mark has posted) produces electricity via ION exchange-much like a fuel cell,where as pressure retarded osmosis creates a pressure that can be used to drive a turbine to produce power.


Brad


Probably !
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature18593.html
Making use of the osmotic pressure difference between fresh water and seawater is an attractive, renewable and clean way to generate power and is known as ‘blue energy’. Another electrokinetic phenomenon, called the streaming potential, occurs when an electrolyte is driven through narrow pores either by a pressure gradient or by an osmotic potential resulting from a salt concentration gradient. For this task, membranes made of two-dimensional materials are expected to be the most efficient, because water transport through a membrane scales inversely with membrane thickness

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2016, 07:18:23 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2016, 08:17:51 PM »
Makes me think the process could work the same way but in reverse using a simple reverse osmosis filter.
One could force saltwater through the filter and cause a charge difference to accumulate.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2016, 08:52:17 PM »
lumen,three atomic layers level ! Angstroem precision !
This membran works like a thermionic cell array .

Compare this membran with Charles M. Brown "Thermal Electric Chip"  membran
100.000.000.000 diodes per sqcm


http://peswiki.com/directory:charles-m-browns-thermal-electric-chip
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 12:26:58 AM by lancaIV »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2016, 08:52:17 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline lumen

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 01:10:22 AM »
lumen,three atomic layers level ! Angstroem precision !
This membran works like a thermionic cell array .

Compare this membran with Charles M. Brown "Thermal Electric Chip"  membran
100.000.000.000 diodes per sqcm


http://peswiki.com/directory:charles-m-browns-thermal-electric-chip

That's always been an interesting idea, but there are several problems where the band gap of each 100,000,000,000 diodes must be exactly the same and it must be very small for a single excited electron to traverse the gap.
One could apply a bias voltage to effectively lower the band gap but again the diodes would all need to be exactly the same or your bias voltage would leak through the diode with the smallest gap and start costing power instead of producing it.

Offline tinman

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 05:50:45 AM »
That's always been an interesting idea, but there are several problems where the band gap of each 100,000,000,000 diodes must be exactly the same and it must be very small for a single excited electron to traverse the gap.
One could apply a bias voltage to effectively lower the band gap but again the diodes would all need to be exactly the same or your bias voltage would leak through the diode with the smallest gap and start costing power instead of producing it.

The question is-what could we use as a membrane that would allow the flow of ions,but not the water molecules?-when referring to the system used described in Marks original post.
What waterproof material would allow for ion flow,and is negatively charged?



Brad

Offline lumen

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 06:03:58 AM »
I thought a simple osmosis filter membrane like for your faucet.
It might work by increasing the salt in one side as only water can get through.
As the ions increase on one side a charge should also develop, the effect would be the same but from the opposite condition.

Or the old experiment with a simple sheet of sandwich wrap will stop water flow but salt ions will pass through it.

Fill a glass half full of fresh water and place a layer of sandwich wrap in the glass so you can fill the glass full with salt water and it is separated with the plastic sheet.

After an hour you can remove the plastic wrap without losing any salt water and yet the fresh water will taste salty. (osmosis)



Offline minnie

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Re: Real Water Power that could be the game changer
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2016, 01:31:15 PM »



   tinman put your brain into gear. Where can I get this material?
  Think about it,a decent fart would be about three atoms thick.
   A million watts is about 1,300 horsepower. Say your cell is 2v
   that would be 500,000 amps.
           John.

 

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