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Solid States Devices => Graham Gunderson Magnetic Implosion Transformer => Topic started by: ramset on July 12, 2016, 01:00:18 AM
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Being discussed here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson.html)
there was some mention of a Mcfree MO ...but all is speculative ATM ,
and just to save the ink
No I don't think he is running his house on it "yet" ,but all will be open sourced !!
respectfully
Chet K
Now new Video of Graham Gunderson :
Magnetic Implosion Transformer that he invented and it measured out at 570% more output than the input he paid for!
Get your copy here: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=14
Babcock DC Motor Disclosure by Paul Babcock: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=33
Cold Electricity by Aaron Murakami: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=41
Fundamentals of the Transforming Generator by Jim Murray - http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=21
Panel Discussion - FREE on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inLZ0tPay7A
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Well, it has been a year since that conference demonstration, after all.
Was it a demonstration of a McFreehyburger? Or perhaps a demonstration of a device and techniques to fool measuring equipment?
Both sets of instruments agreed on the values being measured. From the warm up moment the unit started at 1.53 watts in and 9.43 watts out or a initial COP of 6.16. The load was a 12V automotive lamp that operated during the entire presentation. As time went on the COP improved an hour later the input wattage was down to zero (with four places of accuracy) with the output still at 9.5. That is a COP of infinity, but lets say around 50. I was in the front row to observe this. Graham reported that he has observed the input value go negative like -.25 watts in.
Imagine... zero input watts... but it still had to be connected to the power supply to work! What magic is this?
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Small correction TK, this demo happened 2 days ago, July 9th, 2016.
http://energyscienceconference.com/2016-schedule/ (http://energyscienceconference.com/2016-schedule/)
That's a large rig and a lot of money for a 6w output. :( Tuning?
tak
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If after further analysis, it all turns out to be a 'ghost in the machine' and eOut < eIn, you still gotta give the guy a hat-tip.
It's a pretty good accomplishment to accidentally fool 2 completely different types of measuring equipment by the same factor consistently over a pretty wide frequency band.
That, and the fact that he's adopted the open-source philosophy and freely shares any detail you ask about. Helluva lot more noble than many demonstrating similar claims around.
:)
Well, it has been a year since that conference demonstration, after all.
Was it a demonstration of a McFreehyburger? Or perhaps a demonstration of a device and techniques to fool measuring equipment?
Imagine... zero input watts... but it still had to be connected to the power supply to work! What magic is this?
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Small correction TK, this demo happened 2 days ago, July 9th, 2016.
http://energyscienceconference.com/2016-schedule/ (http://energyscienceconference.com/2016-schedule/)
That's a large rig and a lot of money for a 6w output. :( Tuning?
tak
Oh, I see, sorry. I was going by the information in the link Ramset posted, where most of the posts are dated from July of 2015.
Can you explain why, if a device is running on "zero watts, to four places of accuracy" it still needs to be plugged into its power supply in order to keep running?
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Well, it has been a year since that conference demonstration, after all.
Was it a demonstration of a McFreehyburger? Or perhaps a demonstration of a device and techniques to fool measuring equipment?
Imagine... zero input watts... but it still had to be connected to the power supply to work! What magic is this?
Back to your Childish Antics TK I see after your small break!!!
Did you get a Re-Hire after all?
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
P.S: It was a phone call from Hillary wasnt it... "Youre back on TK..." She said!
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I see that you, Sykes, after over four hundred and seventy pages in your "Partnered Output Coils-Free Energy" thread, have still not been able to demonstrate a single Joule of "free energy" from any of your contraptions.
And you never will.
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I see that you, Sykes, after over four hundred and seventy pages in your "Partnered Output Coils-Free Energy" thread, have still not been able to demonstrate a single Joule of "free energy" from any of your contraptions.
And you never will.
Hahahaha TK, if only you wanted to see the truth, I guess its your job not to through... Blind Bats are, but they can fly at night... If only you had some talent like this...
How is Hillary these days? She Pays well I hear???
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
Gentlemen,
I was at the conference as a guest of Aaron and what Graham presented was no less than a public demonstration of a potential age changing technology and few people realized it. I thought for sure that many attendees would be chasing him down to get his autograph but it didn't happen.
Dumb me, I thought he was going to do a Part II of the complicated transformer system he demonstrated at last years conference which was important in its own right. So, I didn't plan to take photos or notes. I was hoping that he improved the COP od that system from 1.02 to maybe 1.05.
I helped him carry in his set up. Just for good luck I plugged in the solder iron and had it on standby. His system came right up with only some minor tuning required.
Graham was making his measurements using two different approaches:
1) Two Power Analyzers one on the input and one on the output
2) A Tektronix (2000) 4 channel scope with advanced math functions and probes
Both sets of instruments agreed on the values being measured. From the warm up moment the unit started at 1.53 watts in and 9.43 watts out or a initial COP of 6.16. The load was a 12V automotive lamp that operated during the entire presentation. As time went on the COP improved an hour later the input wattage was down to zero (with four places of accuracy) with the output still at 9.5. That is a COP of infinity, but lets say around 50. I was in the front row to observe this. Graham reported that he has observed the input value go negative like -.25 watts in.
I have used up all my documentation space so I can't post the one photo I took just after he shut it off.
The device takes low voltage DC in and outputs DC so COP measurements for the rest of us can probably be done with Harbor Freight DVM's - at least at with those COP values.
Graham has no idea why this thing works as well as it does. He seemed to be in a daze or sort of a tranquil state of disbelief during the conference. I suppose the rest of us might be passing out cigars and doing cart wheels.
The best part is that Graham plans to make all of this "Open Source" so that others can build and improve upon these principals. He has a web site for this material but I don't believe there is much on it at the moment. I have offered to draft any schematics he would like to post. Right now he wants to take some time off and be with his family.
He showed all the various wave forms on the presentation screen and offered his best understanding as to how it worked (but no idea as to why). The source appears to be a 12.7 A-hr lead-acid gel battery that feeds an "H bridge" chopper that then goes to a step up transformer. The peak excitation voltage is around 800 volts. The input is a single sine wave followed by 1/3 cycle of zero voltage and then repeats. This is the input to his custom conversion transformer which is composed of two large "C" Ferrite core pieces. They don't have the same properties. One has a high permittivity and the other has a lower value. The cores are beefed up with about 20 Manganese Ferrite PM's (2" x 3" x 0.5". The primary is wound on the upper core while the secondary is on the bottom. The secondary is composed of four parallel turns of about #10 AWG Litz wire in three loops. (The good stuff). The output is rectified with a synchronous diode made of Si-C FETS and a custom snubbing driving network composed of zenor diodes so that no gate resistor was used.
There is also a timing network involved to coordinate the various cycles, but no microprocessor. The output is then filtered with a large capacitor network and then drives the automotive lamp.
If the instrumentation is correct he should be able to loop the system and have a self runner, but he ran out of time. This device only became operational last Wednesday (7/6/2016). On the week end he submitted a provisional patent.
The ferrite "C" cores also have a total gap of 0.010" which is composed to two separate spacers of 5 mil Mylar sheeting.
There was no attempt to measure the temperature of the cores given the time frame.
The big problem with replication is going to be getting the high permittivity "C" cores. Graham believes that they are no longer available commercially, however if money were available (say $5K) a custom lot could be contracted for. So if you have any of they "fossils" laying around you had better hang on to them.
This is not a cheap device to build (at the moment) you will need four (4) FETS that will cost $70.00 each. I would estimate a person would be into the whole set up for around $1,500 US. But that is far cheaper than Peter's jumbo Bedini motor that he demonstrated at around $3,500. Now the price of instrumentation is a different matter.
Graham reports that he got the idea last November when he couldn't sleep. The inspiration came to him to take the components of a two year old failed experiment and move forward with it. He retrieved the box of parts from his storage van and started in. (My dates could be all wrong)
Aaron has be a great help to Graham both in the documentation and the invitation to speak. Aaron provided a set of the expensive FET's in Grahams time of need a few months ago. Aaron has probably hit the jack pot as a far as a subject goes for publishing goes. I would hope the rest of the world would take an interest in this subject and buy his books and DVD's.
So get your order in for Graham's lecture so that Aaron will fix that one up first or second.
One reason for the muted response to Graham's demonstration could be all the other great presentations. John Bedini was disclosing his work with the Royal Rife technology. Peter Lindeman was displaying a huge Bedini engine/motor. We also had Morey King and his take on the Henry Moray technology. Plus several other great speakers. I was to busy with Graham to attend all of the lectures.
There was only one young man that appeared to take a serious interest in what Graham was doing. He was taking notes and asking important technical questions. Graham offered all the technical detail this individual could copy. By rights there should have been 20 people clustered around him. Maybe there will be next year.
What I find interesting when comparing it to my own interests in the E.V. Gray technology is that there is a lot in common. To me this points to possibility of a shared fundamental physics. The Gray technology was measured to have a COP of 282 at the 7.5 kW level so maybe Grahams system could be up scaled several times and the COP improved as well. The Gray system operates using huge current pulses, Graham's system is continuous. The Gray system's main focus was repulsion force (torque) while Graham's device seems to output classical electricity (but I don't know that for sure - the lamp seemed normal enough with no exotic glows). The fundamental frequency of operation of my Gray transformer is 46 kHz. Gram's system is running at 50 kHz but he is using ferrite. Gray used common steel transformer laminations, so there is hope that the high u core can be replaced something more accessible if commonality hold true.
I suspect that the operational theory may be something like what McFreey proposed, at least the excitation of the conversion transformer has these elements in it. That is a huge magnetic pulse followed by a specific RF burst. what happens after that is any bodies guess. Graham's system follows what McFreey said how the OU is contained in a short but powerful output voltage pulse from the secondary. Who knows, but it is a place for me to start.
I have know Graham for about 10 years since we live in the same city. I'm trained as a classical EE, but I know very little compared to his knowledge of magnetics and electricity. I can barley ask descent questions when we get together. He is an excellent teacher and can sketch with the ability of a cartoonist.
I know of no other Free Energy researcher who would discover such a profound and powerful process and then give it away.
Mark McKay, PE
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I see that you, Sykes, after over four hundred and seventy pages in your "Partnered Output Coils-Free Energy" thread, have still not been able to demonstrate a single Joule of "free energy" from any of your contraptions.
And you never will.
Dont tell me, the thing on your mind must be: "What an inspiration Graham is to others..."
Now that youre back on the Pay Roll, you have to quash, squash with misslead ididotic reasoning any hope that he brings to others... All with nothing to back it up...
After all TK, Graham Gunderson could show you how all your Test Exuipment really does work for sure!!! He is light years ahead of you in that area!!!
Its your job isnt it TK!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Dont tell me, the thing on your mind must be: "What an inspiration Graham is to others..."
Now that youre back on the Pay Roll, you have to quash, squash with misslead ididotic reasoning any hope that he brings to others... All with nothing to back it up...
After all TK, Graham Gunderson could show you how all your Test Exuipment really does work for sure!!! He is light years ahead of you in that area!!!
Its your job isnt it TK!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
By the way TK, Guess what Graham uses on his device: Partnered Output Coils
And, again, I show very clearly another device that uses the same concepts I have very clearly shown for many years.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Can you see that? Can you?
Yes, that is 2 Sets of 3 Coils, each, on the Output!!!
I wonder what this means???
Yes, I am right again, TK your are wrong, youre on the wrong side old mate, its Partnered Output Coils!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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@Chet K - Thanks, hope you can see with open eyes...
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Graham seems a genuinely good fellow trying to do the right thing, he most definitely leaves a lasting impression on the people he meets and is looking to share his work.
It would be nice if we just make the focus here on Graham and his efforts ..
and leave the combat for another place.
we don't seem to lack for those places around here !
and to add
Tinsels Input is totally welcomed and appreciated here, he shows up with his sleeves rolled up and tools in hand ready to Help.
the world needs more men Like Tinsel.
Here [In Graham's case] , No one is trying to hide from good measurement protocol
actually a good experimenter/scientist ALWAYS runs too the metrologist
Not Shuns....
Life is too short and precious to behave any other way.
respectfully
Chet
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Graham seems a genuinely good fellow trying to do the right thing, he most definitely leaves a lasting impression on the people he meets and is looking to share his work.
It would be nice if we just make the focus here on Graham and his efforts ..
and leave the combat for another place.
we don't seem to lack for those places around here !
and to add
Tinsels Input is totally welcomed and appreciated here, he shows up with his sleeves rolled up and tools in hand ready to Help.
the world needs more men Like Tinsel.
Here [In Graham's case] , No one is trying to hide from good measurement protocol
actually a good experimenter/scientist ALWAYS runs too the metrologist
Not Shuns....
Life is too short and precious to behave any other way.
respectfully
Chet
Tinsels Input is totally welcomed and appreciated here, he shows up with his sleeves rolled up and tools in hand ready to Help.
the world needs more men Like Tinsel.
Indeed Chet :)
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Can you see that? Can you?
Yes, that is 2 Sets of 3 Coils, each, on the Output!!!
I wonder what this means???
Yes, I am right again, TK your are wrong, youre on the wrong side old mate, its Partnered Output Coils!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
I can see it all now.
Arron the rookie,and Peter the Lumbermann,with the new !book of transformer secrets!--only $29.95--coming to a store near you,or purchase it direct as a PDF.
Go on the new easy credit plan,where you pay 100% down,and nothing more to pay each month ;)
For a limited time only,get a copy of electric motor secret's with every purchase of transformer secret's--absolutely free.
But wait--there's more.
For a limited time only--more limited than the last limited time offer--get your free copy of pulse motor secrets.
We regret to inform,that at this point in time,due to large sale numbers,we have ran out of free steak knives,but get in early,and we'll throw in a few wooden spoons as well-along with a free full size wall poster of Arron posing on his motor cycle,wearing only his fake leather jacket. :P
Brad
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Quote from EF
The big problem with replication is going to be getting the high permittivity "C" cores. Graham believes that they are no longer available commercially, however if money were available (say $5K) a custom lot could be contracted for. So if you have any of they "fossils" laying around you had better hang on to them.
Yep,there is always a problem :D
Brad
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Sorry EM, I thought something similar, but they're all simply paralleled to maximize L and minmize C (RF inductor). No bucking coils.
The primary mode of operation of this one has a lot more to do with inductane/permeability/saturation.
Can you see that? Can you?
Yes, that is 2 Sets of 3 Coils, each, on the Output!!!
I wonder what this means???
Yes, I am right again, TK your are wrong, youre on the wrong side old mate, its Partnered Output Coils!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Reiyuki
Are the core specs, manufacturer or part numbers available ?
Chet
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Reiyuki
Are the core specs, manufacturer or part numbers available ?
Chet
That exact core I believe was a one-off surplus order from waybackwhen, so a 100% duplication of everything is probably out. The primary was wound around a high permeability ferrite, the secondary around a lower permeability ferrite, and from the pics you should get a good idea on sizing. He was very specific that they were different permeability. Put together, it looks like a UI core, except the I is high perm and the U is low perm. That row of magnets sitting above he said were spaced to partially saturate the high perm core, and you could see that ring of ceramic magnets all pointing in around the ferrite (with some air gap).
Maybe someone can do the math on flux interactions between two cores with different BH curves and differing saturation? He certainly thought this was an important factor.
I only wrote down a few component #'s, but the circuits bear incredible similarities with a lot of the TK/Kapagen circuits, where you have a resonant tank that is pulsed with HV at a precise part of the cycle. Anyone already working on those is going to have an advantage in duplicating. The big pain of course is designing circuits that can get clean sharp precisely timed HV pulses without smoking MOSFETs.
Graham's got a day job and probably has some internal conflict between figuring out the operating principles of the system and sharing what he's already got, so it might be a while before we get much more detail from him. I will do best I can to present what has been presented to me.
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Hi Reiyuki,
I wonder if Graham has thought of using an off the shelf DC-DC converter to loop the output or part of the output back to the input? Because at such a high COP measured, it would be very easy to loop and the doubting people could get some headache then to find "the trick"...
Another thing: do you know who was the special presenter and what was her or his topic? (The name has not been given on the conference site at the start.)
Also, what did Peter Lindemann and Bedini talk about? They were also listed among the speakers, but no topic was given, at least I have not noticed it.
Thanks, Gyula
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@tinman
I can see it all now.[/size]Arron the rookie,and Peter the Lumbermann,with the new !book of transformer secrets!--only $29.95--coming to a store near you,or purchase it direct as a PDF.Go on the new easy credit plan,where you pay 100% down,and nothing more to pay each month For a limited time only,get a copy of electric motor secret's with every purchase of transformer secret's--absolutely free.
In some sense I would agree however if by popularizing these concepts it inspired someone to act who then succeeded then they have in effect succeeded. No offense but I read one of their books a long time ago and it was quite informative much more so than most any of your actual posts. In fact it may be a small price to pay to have information presented in a professional manner without having to wade through all the nonsensical, irrelevant, self-defeating BS posts we see here.
The fact is most of the critics here who get off on criticism are not helping anyone other than themselves. We need relevant information yes but we also need inspiration which is the impetus or the cause for us to act which is the reason we may succeed. If we are not inspired to succeed we won't. Inspiration is where we find it ... key word "we".
AC
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@allcanadian Excellent commentary....
"The fact is most of the critics here who get off on criticism are not helping anyone other than themselves. We need relevant information yes but we also need inspiration which is the impetus or the cause for us to act which is the reason we may succeed. If we are not inspired to succeed we won't. Inspiration is where we find it ... key word "we". "
As I was reminded from somebody just the morning "There is nothing new under the sun". Innovation is inspired by re-membering. Tesla dreamed it in to existence. His imagination ran wild. I encourage everybody to have their own "AH HA" moments. KNOW that it is stirring around in there somewhere. The world could use a real paradigm shift like Tesla gave us. So to everybody that encourages and INSPIRES people to "Question Everything" I commend you. KEEP UP THE GOOD CAUSE, IT Will BE WORTH IT IN THE END!
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Hi Reiyuki,
I wonder if Graham has thought of using an off the shelf DC-DC converter to loop the output or part of the output back to the input? Because at such a high COP measured, it would be very easy to loop and the doubting people could get some headache then to find "the trick"...
Another thing: do you know who was the special presenter and what was her or his topic? (The name has not been given on the conference site at the start.)
Also, what did Peter Lindemann and Bedini talk about? They were also listed among the speakers, but no topic was given, at least I have not noticed it.
Thanks, Gyula
Graham said he had the idea in November and essentially constructed what you saw from a set of other failed experiments, so despite the professional appearance, the elements are all cobbled together. He joked that all of his successes had been from accidents, and that whenever he had a thought or theory and tried to put it to experiment, it wouldn't work. Basically, what you see is proof-of-principle and will probably lose many components as it gets streamlined and the process gets better understood. I dunno why he didn't try to loop it, maybe that's the next thing he'll test. It makes sense that when you have something cool, you don't want to risk making changes and smoking it just before you're scheduled to present.
Lindermann went over the EV gray motor, bedini's original Kromrey converter, and strayed off in a few other directions, as he tends to do. Off-stage, the guy's a Macgyver with little bits of knowledge in what seems like every field.
Bedini went over the 'zero-force motor' he brought over, but much of the talk was about his work with the Rife machine, the history of it all, and operating details. If you've ever heard him, he talks a lot about the recent history of everything and the people involved as much as he talks about actual systems.
Eric Dollard's presentation was something of a continuation on the first few, talking about the mathematics and concepts behind dielectric/magnetic propagation. It'll probably be years before any of us understand enough of it to start applying it to our devices.
The 'special' sunday presentation I believe was Lindermann's talk. It's all a bit of a blur by now, as the entire event felt like 2 months compressed into 3 days. You get so many ideas for future experiments and setups, and if nothing else, I got enough ideas to keep me busy for the next decade.
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@Reiyuki
The 'special' sunday presentation I believe was Lindermann's talk. It's all a bit of a blur by now, as the entire event felt like 2 months compressed into 3 days. You get so many ideas for future experiments and setups, and if nothing else, I got enough ideas to keep me busy for the next decade.
The true value is in the idea and one million failures cannot offset one success as one success shared among others may lead to billions of other people succeeding and new idea's. One cannot buy genuine inspiration because it has no price, one cannot barter a dream because they are not for sale. In effect you have gained something the critics can never have... inspiration, creativity and the desire to succeed. Never look back and do not listen to voices creeping about in the shadows saying it cannot be done...they are generally mistaken.
AC
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Sorry EM, I thought something similar, but they're all simply paralleled to maximize L and minmize C (RF inductor). No bucking coils.
The primary mode of operation of this one has a lot more to do with inductane/permeability/saturation.
Hey R - What do two separate Coils do, when carrying Current, separately on a single core?
Each Field, the Current Flowing in the Coil, Oppose each other.
Sorry R, but as soon as these coils Carry a Current, the Fields will automatically Oppose each other!
The Primary Coil determines the Time Rate of Change of the Flux, each end having a Pole Specific Polarity... The rest is simply follow the dots...
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
Technically, there is acually four fields, two from each coil, so it depends on what field you are talking about also...
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Graham seems a genuinely good fellow trying to do the right thing, he most definitely leaves a lasting impression on the people he meets and is looking to share his work.
It would be nice if we just make the focus here on Graham and his efforts ..
and leave the combat for another place.
we don't seem to lack for those places around here !
and to add
Tinsels Input is totally welcomed and appreciated here, he shows up with his sleeves rolled up and tools in hand ready to Help.
the world needs more men Like Tinsel.
Here [In Graham's case] , No one is trying to hide from good measurement protocol
actually a good experimenter/scientist ALWAYS runs too the metrologist
Not Shuns....
Life is too short and precious to behave any other way.
respectfully
Chet
I totally dissagree - If we all sucked up to the very people that kill all genuine hope and destroy good honest efforts, from others showing important work, then the evil in this world will rule forever!!!
The Great Crusades, the American Civil War, the list is endless, all where each party had to fight for eaches own cause!
So, unless youre a Couch Potato, unwilling to make a Difference, unwilling to Do Your Part, in the future of yours and others Children, then youre a defector and you know what the penalty was for that!
All I ask anyone is to simply do their bit!!! Do it with an open mind, with already know basic knowledge of Electrical Energy "Generation" principles!!!
Playing happy familys, when the family pet is rabid will not end well.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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I can see it all now.
Arron the rookie,and Peter the Lumbermann,with the new !book of transformer secrets!--only $29.95--coming to a store near you,or purchase it direct as a PDF.
Go on the new easy credit plan,where you pay 100% down,and nothing more to pay each month ;)
For a limited time only,get a copy of electric motor secret's with every purchase of transformer secret's--absolutely free.
But wait--there's more.
For a limited time only--more limited than the last limited time offer--get your free copy of pulse motor secrets.
We regret to inform,that at this point in time,due to large sale numbers,we have ran out of free steak knives,but get in early,and we'll throw in a few wooden spoons as well-along with a free full size wall poster of Arron posing on his motor cycle,wearing only his fake leather jacket. :P
Brad
Tinman, I am in agreeance...
I wish to point out, I have never ever, sold material, asked for money or anything of the like.
Infact, on a few ocasions, I have turned down offers of Money. I dont need it.
If you were implying, or heading in a direction where, you thought I was in any way linked to any of those guys you mentioned, I most certianly am not!!!
I fly Solo, I have never had any backing, any affilation to any other company/organisation other than my own.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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@Reiyuki
The true value is in the idea and one million failures cannot offset one success as one success shared among others may lead to billions of other people succeeding and new idea's. One cannot buy genuine inspiration because it has no price, one cannot barter a dream because they are not for sale. In effect you have gained something the critics can never have... inspiration, creativity and the desire to succeed. Never look back and do not listen to voices creeping about in the shadows saying it cannot be done...they are generally mistaken.
AC
Here Here!!! As always, very nicely worded!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Chris
All I ask is that you not turn this thread into a Machinegun posting combat Zone.
you have a right to your opinions But that is all .
here I would welcome any and all respectful investigation into Grahams Claims ,which I believe he welcomes whole heartedly!
Tinsel is a scientist not a politician ,here we need the former not the latter , I'm not interested in adopting him or Dating him, But I do have great respect for his knowledge , there are very few people on this planet who have his life experience investigating these type of claims.
and even fewer willing to roll up their sleeves and offer help when it is needed .
IMO it is not possible to Stifle proper scientific investigations at this forum, the thirst is too great.
In this case there is no secret handshake club, Graham has said he will be open sourcing this .
he seems a great citizen of the planet a wonderful fellow and is held in high regard by his peers.
we need more of that.....
respectfully
Chet K
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author=allcanadian link=topic=16724.msg488355#msg488355 date=146834170
AC
No offense but I read one of their books a long time ago and it was quite informative much more so than most any of your actual posts
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Thats fantastic AC--so you have a self running pulse motor then from there informative books instructions?,or perhaps a lockridge device ?.
I guess it comes down to who gives all of what they know for free,and who takes money in trade of informative books that never seem to result in the claims that come along with those books ;)
The fact is most of the critics here who get off on criticism are not helping anyone other than themselves.
I am not a critic,i am an experimenter who has built many of the !claimed! self running pulse motors.
It would depend on what you see as !helping! some one. I think those that profit by way of lies,is not some one that helps anyone,and i see those that present there work and findings free of charge,and at there own cost,is some one that helps others.
Brad
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@Tinman
Thats fantastic AC--so you have a self running pulse motor then from there informative books instructions?,or perhaps a lockridge device ?.
I guess it comes down to who gives all of what they know for free,and who takes money in trade of informative books that never seem to result in the claims that come along with those books
The question is what can you buy for $30, coffee and a sandwich?, cable tv for a month and 40 channels of shitty reality tv?, another slicer, dicer, peeler that is going to collect dust in a drawer somewhere?. You know I thought about writing a FE book about all the stuff you don't know but it was too much work, it would take way too long and I would have to charge you $200 not $29.99. To be honest it's just not worth my time because it is an incredible amount of work to write a book.
I am not a critic,i am an experimenter who has built many of the !claimed! self running pulse motors.
It would depend on what you see as !helping! some one. I think those that profit by way of lies,is not some one that helps anyone,and i see those that present there work and findings free of charge,and at there own cost,is some one that helps others.
We are very similar and I have built and experimented with many of the devices in question as well. I learned a great deal and not much came of it until one instance years ago when I put 12v at 1 amp (12 watts) into a device not unlike the ones we are talking about and do you know what happened?. It lit up everything on my bench like a god damn christmas tree, every conductive object within 4 feet started arcing over to every other object with hundreds of 1/8" to 1/2" arcs everywhere, Then my old analog scope not connected to anything and turned off started making loud arcing noises internally, inside the metal case.
So while some have had no luck I have seen many things which scared the hell out of me to be quite honest. How did it happen? don't know, why did it happen?, don't know but I do know it did happen followed by a major melt down and that is all the proof I need. Now in the last year everything seems to be really coming together and to think it all started by stumbling onto some crackpot website so many years ago which was Peter Lindemann's by the way. It has been one hell of a journey and well worth the wait in my opinion.
My advice, slow down and have fun with it and don't take anything for granted... enjoy the ride. I have always had the most unexpected things happen when I was just curious and having fun and didn't expect anything to happen. On a side note, most have literally no idea what they are dealing with and if you ever get it just right you had better have a plan B, like a dead man's switch or two because shit happens.
AC
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Chris
All I ask is that you not turn this thread into a Machinegun posting combat Zone.
you have a right to your opinions But that is all .
here I would welcome any and all respectful investigation into Grahams Claims ,which I believe he welcomes whole heartedly!
Tinsel is a scientist not a politician ,here we need the former not the latter , I'm not interested in adopting him or Dating him, But I do have great respect for his knowledge , there are very few people on this planet who have his life experience investigating these type of claims.
and even fewer willing to roll up their sleeves and offer help when it is needed .
IMO it is not possible to Stifle proper scientific investigations at this forum, the thirst is too great.
In this case there is no secret handshake club, Graham has said he will be open sourcing this .
he seems a great citizen of the planet a wonderful fellow and is held in high regard by his peers.
we need more of that.....
respectfully
Chet K
Nice Post Chet!
I agree and will do the best I can to keep the Douching of others, that Shoot Down these devices, and the efforts showing them, with VERY expensive Measurement Equipment, used by a very highly skilled person, to a minimum!
Ok, so, Scientifically, what do we know.
1: Input Winding appears to be 10, 12, 10, 12, 10, 12, possibly only 6 layers, of Litz Wire, about AWG 2 (6.54304 mm) @ approx 0.512664 Ohms per KM.
2: Output Coils consist of 4 Strands of Litz wire, each wound side by side, in a step winding configuration, Almost Bank Winding. Each set of winding's is divided into two parts. Each set of windings appear to be wound CW/CCW relative to the Core.
3: Output is DC, Rectified, via a circuit arrangement of possible 30 odd components.
4: Pulsed DC is the Input. As Reiyuki points out, about 33% 33% 33%
5: Permanent Magnets are arranged on the Device, thought to Bias, or partially saturate at least one half of the U Cores used.
6: U Cores are a Ferrite Material, apparently each has a different value of Permeability. No specifics that I know about have been shared as yet. (The below product guide, has an AL range from: 2300 to: 8700 (nH measured in combination with another ungapped core half))
7: U Core appears to be approximately square, a product selection guide can be found here: Ferroxcube (http://www.ferroxcube.com/FerroxcubeCorporateReception/datasheet/FXC_PSG_2013.pdf), the largest U Core in this document is in the Picture below: (Which is about right, I have some magnets the same here (25 x 40 x 10) and they would fit about the same on the Core)
All in all, what’s the Key concept here? Time Rate of Change of the Magnetic Flux, and the second key point is there are Two Output Coils, arranged specifically in separate space on the second half of the U Core. Electricity is the end result of Electromagnetic Induction, time rate of change, where in the Input Coil is the Prime Mover, which is mostly or completely unaffected by the Drawing of Current on the Output.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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@Tinman
The question is what can you buy for $30, coffee and a sandwich?, cable tv for a month and 40 channels of shitty reality tv?, another slicer, dicer, peeler that is going to collect dust in a drawer somewhere?. You know I thought about writing a FE book about all the stuff you don't know but it was too much work, it would take way too long and I would have to charge you $200 not $29.99. To be honest it's just not worth my time because it is an incredible amount of work to write a book.
We are very similar and I have built and experimented with many of the devices in question as well. I learned a great deal and not much came of it until one instance years ago when I put 12v at 1 amp (12 watts) into a device not unlike the ones we are talking about and do you know what happened?. It lit up everything on my bench like a god damn christmas tree, every conductive object within 4 feet started arcing over to every other object with hundreds of 1/8" to 1/2" arcs everywhere, Then my old analog scope not connected to anything and turned off started making loud arcing noises internally, inside the metal case.
So while some have had no luck I have seen many things which scared the hell out of me to be quite honest. How did it happen? don't know, why did it happen?, don't know but I do know it did happen followed by a major melt down and that is all the proof I need. Now in the last year everything seems to be really coming together and to think it all started by stumbling onto some crackpot website so many years ago which was Peter Lindemann's by the way. It has been one hell of a journey and well worth the wait in my opinion.
My advice, slow down and have fun with it and don't take anything for granted... enjoy the ride. I have always had the most unexpected things happen when I was just curious and having fun and didn't expect anything to happen. On a side note, most have literally no idea what they are dealing with and if you ever get it just right you had better have a plan B, like a dead man's switch or two because shit happens.
AC
Hahaha Yes... 3 feet away, If I use DC I can shut down my laptop, luckily I have not yet destroyed it...
I prefer not to use DC these days.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Thanks to Reiyuki's awesome documentation efforts, and for others out there interested, I have done some ID'ing on the IC's
I believe all the Opto's are the same, as the surrounding circuitry is the same. Some appears to be redundant, I may be wrong however.
Red Circles: NEC PS 2505
Green Circle: IXDD614PI
Blue Circle: IL710
Yellow Circle: 74AC14PCX
Please check for yourself, I am not 100% sure on all of them, if is very close if I have not got it spot on.
The Output Caps:
3 x Felsic Aluminum Electrolytic Screw Capacitor 2200µF 350Vcc
2 x Kemet Arcotronics AV MKP C4BTHBX5100Z_L_ Style A 10uf 600V
This is a lot of ciruitry for Synchronous Rectification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_rectification), Texas Instrunemts (http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva595/snva595.pdf) has a good doc on this, that is, if this is what Graham is doing?
I hope this helps others that are interested in this!!!
Maybe TK or Chet you like to have a bit of a go at the Circuit? We have scope shots!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Anyone else other than the normal few, up for some serious Pro-Active Forum Hard Work?
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Relative to the Core, each of Grahams Secondary Coils are wound as I have shown.
One Coil is Clock Wise, the other is Counter Clock Wise.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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The Output Circuit:
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
P.S: Of course I should have drawn a Common U Core for both sets of Coils. Ferrite, I think is a Dashed Double Line from memory isnt it? Correction made.
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Approximately 2 years ago, I posted this Circuit, in my pdf document, to this, and another (Doggy) forum:
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Reiyuki posted his block schematic interpretation of the Device below.
member K4zep has joined in
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson.html
he is an excellent builder and experimenter .
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Looks like someone found Graham Gunderson's blog as well, and a circuit that looks like an earlier evolution of the 'interrupted synchronous rectifier' portion.
https://electropub.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/non-linear-load-using-mosfets/
I'd suggest people curious read through the various posts to get an understanding of his theory and process rather than my interpretation of it.
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Thanks Chet, Reiyuki!
Thats exactly right, Facts remain facts. Will never change!
Please read the entire article, here is a snippett:
Here’s a circuit that can be placed in series with a resistive load to make it “nonlinear”, and suitable as a load for a MEG.
...
This is allegedly necessary for COP>1 operation in a MEG.
...
In the MEG device, the flux from the permanent magnet alternates between the two leg paths, representing more oscillating energy than the drive coils are providing.
How much work did Graham Gunderson really do with the MEG before 2012? Obviously a LOT!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
P.S: Its worth noting, this is NOT what Graham is currently using, it is more like a variant of these ideas.
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Yes, I cant help myself. Sorry.
I want to point out the fact that I also posted the Input circuit, LC Resonant at the same time I posted the output Circuit. I have used both Series and Parallel Resonant and even a combination of both... Also posted approximately 2 years ago.
The only difference, is Graham has a Relax Period where he switches off his input.
Chet, what did I say to you?
That you will see the exact same principles I have brought to this forum for ever after? Somehing like this?
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
P.S: This just might be one of the biggest "I Told You Só" ever? Just how is it that Graham is showing, nearly the exact same thing, same principles, I have shown for years?
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I think it is really important that everyone does not forget that these Systems have worked and do work today with none of the complicated Switching that Graham has shown!!!
AC Systems do work, as has been stated by so many in the past!!!
We are very lucky to have Graham share his device, along with his VERY Expensive measurement equipment and his expertese on how to use this equipment!!!
Thank you Graham.
Thank You Reiyuki for your awesome documetation efforts and sharing your imformation!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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I wouldn't touch that with a 10 FOOT POLE. It looks too much like
Daniel Poperlou's circuit. Yeah, Daniel's circuit lights a light bulb, BUT
do you really think you can Duplicate his Rat Nest? LOL
http://overunity.com/393/daniel-pomerlou-demonstrates-free-energy/#.V4gQqtQrKHs (http://overunity.com/393/daniel-pomerlou-demonstrates-free-energy/#.V4gQqtQrKHs)
.
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I wouldn't touch that with a 10 FOOT POLE. It looks too much like
Daniel Poperlou's circuit. Yeah, Daniel's circuit lights a light bulb, BUT
do you really think you can Duplicate his Rat Nest? LOL
http://overunity.com/393/daniel-pomerlou-demonstrates-free-energy/#.V4gQqtQrKHs (http://overunity.com/393/daniel-pomerlou-demonstrates-free-energy/#.V4gQqtQrKHs)
.
I just cant help think Daniel was trying to tell us somehing so very much more important than how a device looked...
He did say that Women could do this better than men, because they could feel it, use intuition better than Men...
Diakoptics:
In systems analysis, Diakoptics (Greek dia–through + kopto–cut,tear) or the "Method of Tearing" involves breaking a (usually physical) problem down into subproblems which can be solved independently before being joined back together to obtain an exact solution to the whole problem. The term was introduced by Gabriel Kron in a series "Diakoptics — The Piecewise Solution of Large-Scale Systems" published in London, England by The Electrical Journal between June 7, 1957 and February 1959. The twenty-one installments were collected and published as a book of the same title in 1963. The term diakoptics was coined by Philip Stanley of the Union College Department of Philosophy
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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I wouldn't touch that with a 10 FOOT POLE. It looks too much like
Daniel Poperlou's circuit. Yeah, Daniel's circuit lights a light bulb, BUT
do you really think you can Duplicate his Rat Nest? LOL
http://overunity.com/393/daniel-pomerlou-demonstrates-free-energy/#.V4gQqtQrKHs (http://overunity.com/393/daniel-pomerlou-demonstrates-free-energy/#.V4gQqtQrKHs)
.
In 1859, the Earth suffered a rather frightning event.
The Carrington event of 1859 - the largest solar flare ever recorded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNf8xK67JA)
The Sun, 149.6 million km's away from the Earth, had a coronal mass ejection (CME), this hit the Earth after 18 Hours.
When hitting the Earth, it sent the Telegraph Systems into complete dissaray. Setting fire to parts of it and destroying a great portion of it.
Do you think after 18 more hours the effects Lenz's Law reached the Sun?
Daniels Coils are very likely arranged to do something similar... Induction, via a small scale pulse in comparision, from the Motor and or the switch on event, the arrangement vs the frequency, probably could be calculated: 3×108 m/s divided by X Hz = X metres
0.02M between the two standalone Coils indicate a Frequency of about: 15000MHz or 15GHz
Not that I wish to attempt a replication, I leave that for others, but this is an example of how I try to use Diakoptics to see how something may work.
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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Chet, some Scopeshot anaylsys on your agenda? Would be nice to get some different angles on this. I think k4zep is pretty close.
In looking at the waveforms on the scope. It appears that there is a lot going on that was not discussed or stated in the "transformer". IF you look at the one complete Sine wave and consider it to be 360 degrees and the resting time to be another 180 degrees, we see several interesting things that must be considered. Starting with the load on the output in the Syn. rectifier, and the input going down, you see the voltag leading the current by about 90 degrees both in the input current and the output current normal transformer operation.
It still is a normal waveform as the sine wave continues upward through 270 degrees. Sometime after 270 degrees, the sync. rectifier is turned off for a very short period of time and then turned back on. ALSO the H bridge is off/open circuit for 180 degrees after the end of the 360 degree cycle so the transformers input coil is floating during the Energy generation portion of the final 180 degree free floating cycle. All the energy (magic) generation occurs in the last 90 degrees of the normal 360 degree cycle and the additional 180 degree "Rest" period.
Starting at the 270 degree point in the normal waveform, when the load is removed from the transformer and the voltage from the H bridge is approaching zero volts and open circuit, There is a VERY high voltage (+?) pulse in the Primary of the coil reaching 15-1800 volts that is immediately clamped back down (before punching through the input FET's), by the output circuit and then the extra energy generation begins. I "think" there is a HF burst 20-50 VAC, maybe higher, in the RF range, shown as hash on the input resting voltage and the output integrated current waveform. The current REVERSES (clamped by a diode?)back to the input stage and continues most of the time during the resting 180 degree in a positive direction (additional power) in the output stage. This is where the power is generated in the output and where the negative power is added to the input stage. Correctly tuned, that negative return clamped current in the input stage can force the circuit to appear to be operating at +/- zero power. That burst is probably coming from the input core when it is biased properly by the perm. magnet field.(Hence the "Implosion transformer") Is the sync. detector ALSO rectifying the burst pulses, it would have to be considering the waveform????? Or is that just handled by a normal bridge rectifier in parallel with the Sync. Rect. circuit, who knows. I noticed a large multi-wire cable going from the Sync. Rectifier back to the timing board. There was a lot going on in that circuit that the scope hid due to frequency constraints to the probes I think. The output current (extra power) is the integration of that burst by a large amount during the resting period.. Well that's what came to me while I slept last night. This wanders all over the place I hope it is clear enough.
Ben
No sign of the big diode in the circuit doing anything there, unless it is the clamp that Ben mentions, I personally cant see this. I would expect to see a Flat, or Zero current if it was clamped? The Fets are the only rectification at least from what I can see. Internal Diodes in the Fets will also play a role in the Rectification/Non Rectification here.
We really do see Current and Voltage through much of the cycle, it appears as if the DC Caps may live a short life with the Plus and Minus Current Cycles...
Input I to V Phase Shift: 89.5 Degrees <<<--- Input Power is nearly completely Reactive. (Where have I heard this before)...
Input I to Output I Phase Shift: 20 Degrees
Output Syncronous Rectification turn off: 244.125 Degrees
Output Syncronous Rectification turn on: 248.625 Degrees
Wave distortion could make the above 2 figures incorrect.
Figures are an approximation, based on the image that Reiyuki very kindly posted!!!
Please correct me if I have any of this wrong... I certainly do not wish for others to read this as gospel if it is wrong!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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member Smudge has done a ruff analysis from the Photos
respectfully
Chet K
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In a perfect world, waiting and patience are the polite thing to do.
in the world we live in today , such technologies [if actual] can truly save lives !
How does a man wait when "that" is at stake ?
and then there is the fact that some of our members [maybe me too] are getting older, and waiting has a whole other perspective...
Time is an asset which can not be guaranteed or taken for granted.
just one mans opinion.
respectfully
Chet K
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Is Graham Gunderson going to truly open-source this stuff? If yes, then perhaps waiting for that to happen would be the wisest course of action.
Yes.
In fact, it already is open-sourced, just poorly documented. The problems of having a job, a family, and a passion ;D . Graham has not kept any secrets and answered every question I had when I had the opportunity. He'll even admit upfront that he doesn't know exactly why it works, and challenges others to figure out how it works. That plus the precise measurements with 2 different types of equipment puts him far ahead of most experimenters.
As for replicating, we have plenty to work with and more detail than most claimed systems on this forum. Even those without the tools for a direct replication, people can always contribute in other ways (equations, modelling the dynamics, contributing schematics, hell, even CAD modelling helps). No sense waiting for godot when we have so much to work with already.
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member Smudge has done a ruff analysis from the Photos
respectfully
Chet K
Most awesome work Smudge!!!
Thanks Chet for posting this!!!
This does however present some confusion for me.
Smudge says:
Note that during this period there is no load on the secondary to consume power.
in the Context:
The saturation knee has been set to coincide with the current level at the kink in the current waveform. If the core material were linear the ratio of flux to current either side of this line would be a constant value, but clearly this is not the case. It seems that above that line the material has lower mu, has moved into saturation, while below that line the material has higher mu, below saturation. This now offers an interesting possibility. In the high mu region, at high inductance, the system has produced current at virtually zero power loss because of the phase quadrature.
then Smudge goes on to say:
This shows the output current waveform and the load switch region. I have to admit to being completely baffled by this waveform since it is showing current outside the load connected region.
Being that there is a very good chance that the Mosfets have internal Diodes, and if the Circuit on the Output is a correct implimentation of how Graham is using the Mosfets as a Syncronous Rectification, then we should see conduction in both directions of the Cycle as is shown, only if the Mosfets are on.
This we do see. The Mosfets are switched off, 244.125 Degrees, then on again abruptly at approximately 248.625 Degrees on the Output Current wave form.
If there was no Conduction of the Output Coils, then we should see Zero Output Current flow on the Scope where the Output Coils are "Not Connected"??? (Mosfets are Off...) Similar to the half bridge retification image below.
We see Output Current flowing in the Red (Positive Current) and Black (Negative Current) portions of the wave form, there is not any Zero, non conduction periods, except for the Turn Off and Turn On again.
Someone please explain where I have this wrong!!!
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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What if, there appears to be no load, but that the Load really is connected...
There appears to be no load, because there is no reflected Magnetic Field back on the Primary Coil... Lenz's Law is not affecting the Input... Thus the Reactive Nature of the Input is not Damped...
After all, Power is the product of Voltage x Current, anytime there is Current and Voltage present, DC especially, not so much AC Reactive, depending on the Phase Angle, there is an Active Power component...
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
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What if, there appears to be no load, but that the Load really is connected...
There appears to be no load, because there is no reflected Magnetic Field back on the Primary Coil... Lenz's Law is not affecting the Input... Thus the Reactive Nature of the Input is not Damped...
After all, Power is the product of Voltage x Current, anytime there is Current and Voltage present, DC especially, not so much AC Reactive, depending on the Phase Angle, there is an Active Power component...
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
It is not switched that way. In a synchronous rectifier, the way he has it set up, the two coils are being alternately shorted, not shorted against each-together.
Reactive power and phase-angle is likely indeed important, but as you can see in the device, there are a LOT of factors at play (multipl permeabilities, unique driving circuitry, unique interrupted load, and an input ferrite saturated 'to the knee'). If any of these factors were not critical, it is likely they would not be in the final product he had presented us.
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I've been playing with this a little and it looks like I can get a similar wave form with just using 36vdc chopped by a mosfet switch around 21.7kHz with a 33% duty cycle to a primary coil which has a 0.002uf capacitor connected in parallel tuned to resonance (21.7kHz).
Yellow is a x100 Voltage probe across primary coil, Blue is a Tektronic P6021 current probe on negative of primary coil, Red is the product (math) of V x I and Purple is the DC output of the secondary (after FWBR to a 27,000uf cap with 20 Ohm load).
Luc
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It would be interesting to know the actual value of the Purple trace. Its baseline is offset below the display area. Does the Measurement of 4.07 Vrms represent the actual value or just what is shown on the screen, from the bottom graticule marker to the trace itself? The question mark indicates unreliable measurement, doesn't it?
Nice work, as usual, anyhow.
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Anyway, since we're starting to evolve into proper analysis of this, I might as well post the rest of my photos/notes from the presentation. Enjoy ;D :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0_1dJJ_ezEmSzZMRmxNSFkwZmc (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0_1dJJ_ezEmSzZMRmxNSFkwZmc)
Well, based on what we see in that PDF things are very murky and unclear. Why don't you ask him for a complete schematic and bill of materials for the device, and also ask him for a complete test setup description including a test setup schematic with clearly indicated test points and test waveforms and test data?
I answered that in the previous post. Job and family come first, and I realize the hundreds of hours that went into building and tuning the actual devices, plus the hours on top of that I spent gathering firsthand information to share with the rest of you. I wouldn't blame him for taking a couple months off after all of this.
Besides that, I'd like to consider him a mentor and guide rather than a babysitter. Surely, with our collective intellect we can design an equivalent timing circuit and synchronous rectifier without his help?
Don't get thrown off by the "unavailable cores" business or the business about "multiple permeabilities" in a magnetic circuit. That is not "secret sauce" and a suitable substitute magnetic core implementation is easily doable.
Agreed, it's probably not the 'secret sauce', at least by itself, because it's been thoroughly tried before. But his setup as a whole has a unique configuration that I have not seen tested anywhere else around here, and since there is much detail already present, I thought it an interesting direction to pursue.
The virtual self-flagellation when it comes to these claims where you agree to suffer without proper information needs to come to a positive resolution. I don't think the majority of people interested in this stuff are mental masochists.
Run through the new material above and tell me what you think we might need next. I think we have enough information to start exploring in this direction. And since it's relatively unexplored, there should be much to learn :)
-rei
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It would be interesting to know the actual value of the Purple trace. Its baseline is offset below the display area. Does the Measurement of 4.07 Vrms represent the actual value or just what is shown on the screen, from the bottom graticule marker to the trace itself? The question mark indicates unreliable measurement, doesn't it?
Nice work, as usual, anyhow.
Thanks TK
ch 3 (Purple trace) should be okay as its vertical position is set to -4.00. Its side arrow shows off screen (down arrow) after you pass -3.96
Luc
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Hi Reiyuki,
Thank you for all the information, based on your pictures I made a interpretive drawing of the switching. The multi-material may be a way to force it to take the path of least resistance so to speak.
The only thing that is really throwing me off is the top bias magnets are they also N<->N (S<->S) pointing outwards or N<->S?
The magnets on the outside where they are parallel to the main coil are also of interest, in the top view picture. The joined south poles could form a split in the center of the main coil making north dominate until the drive coil forces it out of balance.
Again these are only my interpretations with the current data which could be wrong.
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Dear DreamWorker (or something like that)
All the nice work you did was probably based upon the diagram that Graham sketched for Reiyuki at the conference.
That arrangement didn't make sense to me either, so I asked Graham about it. He said the he was attempting to show Reiyuki some other construction feature about the bias magnets - I couldn't follow what that was, however Graham did assure me that all of the PM's were aligned in the same direction to form a continuous magnetic loop.
The little white dots on the end of the PM's are casting notes to establish which end of the magnet was at the top of the mold. Apparently there is a significant variation of intensity from one end to the other. Graham was using Barium Ferrite magnets that he had in his personal inventory. The dots don't indicate polarity.
Speaking of the bias magnets; if you look at the photos that Reiyuki has contributed you will notice a spacer between the PM's and the surface of the central transformer core. This is a 5/16" or 3/8" machined piece of acrylic. Graham describes how he spent a fair amount of time "tuning the bias field" by using different thickness (and materials) for spacers. Changing this spacer also requires a slight change to the operating frequency. Graham has a lot of experience using PM's to modify the core magnetic dynamics. He was doing this kind of technique 10 years ago. On his work bench he had about 4 different thickness of spacers. The thinner ones (down to 1/6") were of a white material not unlike polyethylene.
Speaking of core magnetic dynamics. Graham says that when the machine is running the magnetics in the lower "C" core is not the same as that which is flowing in the upper "C" core. He said this is not normal in a closed magnetic core even with different permittivity's.
The lower "C" core is a common 100mm (4") HC90 with 1" square legs (or arms). The core is composed of two "C" sections with 0.005" of Mylar sheeting (one on each leg) for a total gap of 0.010".
Maybe you can salvage your simulation and add the impact of the spacers.
Also, those 18 bias magnets on the top of the apparatus are also responsible for a significant amount of performance improvement. I certainly don't see how being that far away. Graham said that he could hold a few magnets in his hand at a distance of about 24" from the operating device, rotate them and watch his output lamp vary in intensity. That is some sensitive device. This only shows how narrow the window of operation might be.
Spokane1
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The moment you see actual permanent magnets incorporated into some kind of magnetic circuit that is effectively functioning as a transformer then warning bells should be sounding. Except for a very few specialized applications, adding permanent bar magnets to magnetic circuits to "bias" them is usually nothing more than electronics quackery. The simple test is to run the setup with the permanent magnets in place, and then run the setup without the permanent magnets in place. The reasonable expectation is that the circuit will perform better and have more power headroom without the permanent magnets.
I anybody builds this (Do we know what the configuration actually is?) then I strongly recommend testing it with and without the permanent magnets.
Also note that depending on the magnet, you may be demagnetizing your permanent magnet when you place it in some sort of AC transformer setup.
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I've scavenged at least a dozen CRT TVs and monitors over the past couple of years for parts. Each and every one of them has had at least one inductor on the circuit board that is biased by a permanent magnet glued to the ferrite core. Some of these inductors appear to have several windings, some have just one winding.
These circuit boards are built to the lowest possible unit cost. The reasonable conclusion is that the permanent magnets are doing something desirable and useful, since it would certainly cost less to build the circuits without using them.
Of course MH's point still holds. Any reasonable experimenter attempting to justify his use of permanent magnets in some device should be prepared to perform and publish the results of comparison tests showing some significant positive effect of using magnets. I'm quite sure the manufacturers of those TV and monitor circuits I've taken apart could justify their use of magnets. That is, if there is anybody still working there who remembers how to design circuits for CRT-based systems.
Can anyone else?
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I've scavenged at least a dozen CRT TVs and monitors over the past couple of years for parts. Each and every one of them has had at least one inductor on the circuit board that is biased by a permanent magnet glued to the ferrite core. Some of these inductors appear to have several windings, some have just one winding.
These circuit boards are built to the lowest possible unit cost. The reasonable conclusion is that the permanent magnets are doing something desirable and useful, since it would certainly cost less to build the circuits without using them.
Of course MH's point still holds. Any reasonable experimenter attempting to justify his use of permanent magnets in some device should be prepared to perform and publish the results of comparison tests showing some significant positive effect of using magnets. I'm quite sure the manufacturers of those TV and monitor circuits I've taken apart could justify their use of magnets. That is, if there is anybody still working there who remembers how to design circuits for CRT-based systems.
Can anyone else?
Permafield inductors were also widely used in the telephone switching systems of the 1940s-1970s. They were used for very specific relay timing sequences where a fast acting, slow release, or slow acting, fast release relay was needed to control the sequencing of other relays. Ordinarily this sort of timing was achieved with diodes and resistors across the relay coil/s, or heel end or front end copper slugs, and specific contact tensioning.
But in smaller, faster relay switching systems permafield inductors using weak steel magnets coupled to non retentive magnetic stainless steel cores were favoured. Some permafield relays, once triggered, would hold the armature indefinitely without further current applied, until a brief pulse of opposite polarity was applied to the relay coil.
Cheers
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MileHigh
It would of course Be "quackery"
Until it is Not.
If this Device turns out to be genuine.. there'll be a lot of Quacking around here !
Your perspective Is By no means Unique.
respectfully
Chet K
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There are a number of reasons you would want to bias an inductor with a PM field.
Some use it as a means to reduce winding turn amounts-thus decreasing resistive losses,and some to reduce the size of the inductor core to achieve the same result.
The most common-which may be the reason the Gun is using PMs to bias his transformer core,is to offset core saturation current values-in that the core will become saturated using only a small amount of current flow in one direction,and a large amount of current flow in the opposite direction is required to saturate the core with the opposite magnetic flux to that of the biasing field.
What is a magnetic field-what is the magnetic force?
An electromagnetic field is made up of photon's,but what about a PMs field?
We take away the electric field,and we have a field of virtual photons-that is your magnetic force.
Has anyone ever bothered to experiment with electromagnetic fields and a solar panel?
Come on guy's-put it altogether here.
Brad
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TK:
Let's Google!
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/magnetic-inductors-what-are-they-called/
I was taking some components out of a TV before I recycled it. It was a CRT type, one of the last runs for these. I noticed screws and other things sticking to these. These radial open bobbin flyback inductors were wound on a fairly strong magnet. Everyone knows that an inductor becomes just a resistor once it saturates. Starting with a core that is magnetized should allow you to store twice the energy. That is, if you don't drmagnetize the core in the process. Anyway, this is the first time I have seen these in a product and I have been traring things apart for more than 40 years. Went looking for an app note for an interesting read. None of the search terms I used came up with anything. Any idea on what these are called?
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/deflfaq.htm#dshlc
Horizontal Linearity Correction
Since there is non-zero resistance associated with the components (mainly coil losses) in the yoke circuit (yoke winding, ESR of S-cap, etc.) the world is not quite as ideal as one would hope. Without compensation, this resistance would result in non-linearity of the picture - it would tend to be squashed on the right side as the resistance saps energy from the yoke circuit.
The waveform becomes a damped sinewave, which will be 'undamped' by restoring energy during the flyback.
One way to deal with this is to add a magnetically biased saturable inductor in series with the horizontal deflection yoke. This is called the linearity coil.
Its core is magnetically biased near the point of saturation such that the inductance decreeases with increasing current and this helps to stretch the right hand side of the scan. In other words, during the scan the coil saturates so that the inductance decreases. At the end of scan there is practically no voltage left over the linearity coil so that the deflection coil gets maximum voltage.
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TK:
Google II from the Power Guru!
http://www.powerguru.org/maxflux-%E2%80%93-magnetically-biased-inductor/
MaxFlux – Magnetically Biased Inductor
Utilising the core to its fullest!
In modern topologies the inductive components require most of the space and contribute significantly to the total weight and system costs. Therefore the biggest potential for achieving a compact and cost efficient system lies in the optimization of these devices. Most of the effort made in the last years was focused on the thermal management and using better soft-magnetic materials in order to reduce the volume.
By Stefan Herzog, Alexander Stadler and Christof Gulden, STS Spezial-Transformatoren Stockach GmbH & Co. KG, Stockach, Germany
However, for a specific class of inductors there is a further opportunity for optimization. In topologies such as buck or boost and PFC SMPS the inductors are usually used in a unipolar way, i.e. the current flows only in one direction of the coil. In these chokes only half of the theoretically maximum swing of the flux density is realized. This article deals with the technique of biasing the core with a permanent magnet in order to reach the full swing. The result is a choke which is smaller, lighter and more economical compared to existing constructions.
Working principle
Biasing the soft-magnetic core with a permanent magnet is a principle which has been investigated for a long time [1, 2, 3]. Even more recent work deals with this tempting technology [4, 5, 6] . However, up to now no commercially available solution is known, where the biasing method is used in serial production.
The biasing technique concerns unipolar applications, for example storage or PFC inductors. The typical current characteristic of the first class is shown in figure 1.
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Hi Spokane1,
Thank you for that information. The loop design changes the field going through just the ends of the central core. It doesn't make sense to me in that configuration because any change in the drive coil is fighting against the loop. Instead of switching, if the polarity were all equal, it would be halved through the output. I don't really understand that configuration enough without doing some small tests.
The tuning/spacing sounds like it took years. Maybe each magnet assembly could be mounted to non-magnetic linear bearings, nylon rods, worm gear and driven by a stepper motor. Have a micro-controller move the magnet assemblies while sweeping the input waveform through the drive coil and monitoring the output. Eventually it may hit a sweet spot, but if you need a robot to tune it I don't know how practical it would be if another magnetic field in the area can throw it off.
Hi Tinman,
I've tried solar panels(both poly and mono crystalline) with different magnet arrangements on/near/around them (moving, spinning and non-moving) and didn't measure any benefit. Laser diodes though will activate solar cells.
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Dear DreamThinkBuild,
Here is a recent photo from last Monday of Graham's machine with the PM clamps removed. The PM's that are remaining are self supported.
I suppose that you can determine the likely polarity from this arrangement. In this test he wasn't using any spacers.
Keep up the good work on the simulations. I wonder what is happening in the main core.
Mark McKay
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@ All
Below are more thoughts on Graham's device from member Smudge
@ Note to Spokane 1
At this forum if the posted pictures are too big [bigger than 1200x1000 [I think??}}we have to run across the page to read it.
respectfully
Chet K
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....
Let's Google!
....
Well if you do a search inside this forum...
This coil type with the added ceramic magnet to fine tune coil inductance was discussed here,
see this link for instance
http://overunity.com/3500/nathan-stubblefield-earth-batteryself-generating-induction-coil-replications/msg199535/topicseen/#msg199535
The bottom line is that as Spokane1 wrote above, if the output power of this device depends
strongly on exact tuning then the use of permanent magnet(s) on the ferromagnetic core
to fine tune the LC tank is a convenient means to achieve exact resonance condition.
There is another consideration, however, and that is said by some people:
you can influence the electrons spin in the core by an applied outside magnetic field and
together with simultaneous other excitation of the core the overall effect may result in some extra output.
The problem is that if you remove the biasing magnets, you need to find means to retune
the coil to the same inductance it had with the presence of the magnets, to be able to tell
whether the influenced electrons spin yield any output or not.
So very careful adjustments and measurements have to be applied.
Gyula
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In a perfect World a man Like Graham would have unlimited resources and equipment
he would not have to work with repurposed pieces.
so methods or "bench smarts" he utilizes to achieve his result should not be considered
"quackery"
But more so considered a very good understanding of the media he works in and just how skilled he truly is
Turning a Ukulele into a Stradivarius on a shoestring budget should be commended not ridiculed .
we are most fortunate to have him sharing.
respectfully
Chet K
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so methods or "bench smarts" he utilizes to achieve his result should not be considered
"quackery"
respectfully
Chet K
Well, the laws of physics don't get "waived" just because you are all excited.
Look at the attached pictures. The main magnetic circuit is an inverted "u" with
the primary on the high-permeability horizontal core piece and the two secondaries on
the two vertical low-permeability core pieces. There is no closed loop in that magnetic
circuit but presumably the three separate core pieces are nicely magnetically coupled with
nice flat surfaces flush to each other. There is presumably enough magnetic energy
storage capacity in the three core pieces to effectively couple the primary to the
two secondaries.
Then all of the ceramic biasing magnets are arguably nothing more than window dressing
imposing some kind of DC magnetic bias on the main inverted "u" magnetic circuit. As
we all know from basic electronics, any kind of DC magnetic bias will have no affect
whatsoever on the three coils which only react to AC changes in magnetic flux.
Will all of these DC biasing magnets affect the resonant frequency of the LC tank circuit?
(I think it is between external capacitors and the primary coil.) The answer to that is
most likely yes, it will have an impact on the resonant frequency.
So, what would happen if you removed all of the "window dressing" DC biasing magnets?
Presumably the resonant frequency would change. Therefore, you would need to change
the frequency that the electronics circuitry was running at to match the new resonant
frequency. Alternatively, you could keep the same operating frequency for the electronics
circuitry and simply adjust the capacitance in the LC tank circuit so the two frequencies
line up.
In simple terms: The expectation is that a new setup with all of the DC biasing magnets
removed would be functionally equivalent to the current setup with all of the DC biasing
magnets in place. The laws of physics are not going to change in this setup as compared
to any other setup.
MileHigh
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Well, the laws of physics don't get "waived" just because you are all excited.
When it comes to Electrical Engineering, many of these laws operate non-linearly or in one-way interactions.
As we crack this nut, in the end, the solution will probably end up looking similar to the solution found to the 'heavier-than-air flight' problem.
What was needed for heavier-than-air flight? Strong forward thrust on a lightweight craft with a large wing surface area, and adequate control surfaces to manage the entire system. (Strong impulses on an efficient transformer with variable permeability, and precise control circuitry to manage the entire system... hah, just a though)
If we're talking about a static, non-parametric system, I certainly agree with you, that 'heavier-than-air flight is impossible' :P .
Look at the attached pictures.
Sorry, that flux direction note of mine was incorrect (as Spokane1 pointed out a couple days ago). I incorrectly assumed the dots represented polarities, but in reality the magnets are in a closed loop (N-S) with the high perm ferrite in the center. I guess that throws off the rest of your analysis above.
The interaction in this setup is obviously complicated, and requires some extensive math to properly model. You're dealing with a flux loop and multiple permeabilities with abruptly interrupted loads. Each of those can have non-linear interactions, that might be combined in ways to allow a more complicated process to transpire. Consider other non-linear and parametric systems and how they interact, and the entire process starts to make more sense.
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Dear Builders,
For those of you getting materials to join this technical hay ride here are some reference measurements that might be handy:
The top and bottom support plates are 1" thick (I know they look thicker in the photos)
The smaller of the plastic threaded rods (8X total) are 1/4" diameter and made of 6/6 Nylon. I don't know the size of the two larger rods. I'm going to order 3/8" rod.
Graham use G-10 for his primary coil form. He recommends using Polycarbonate instead. He made a jig composed of two large hardware "L" brackets to wind the primary.
The main core has a bottom dimension of 100mm it looks like 4" to me with 1" arms
Don't attempt to find exact replacements for those PM's. The orange paint is to tell Graham that these are Barium Ferrite magnets. We will have to do the best we can with mortal magnets
about the same size. I'm starting with some small Class 8 units from Applied Magnets for $0.023 each. If you can get the same size you will need at lease 72 of them and probably more to
make up the difference in strength.
http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_6&products_id=255
McMaster-Carr has all the nylon rod, nuts, washers, and 1/16" polycarbonate sheet you will need
Graham has a small vertical CNC mill that he used to cut all the acrylic and the small magnetic spacers.
Spokane1
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That's news to me. Which laws are you talking about? Certainly magnetic systems like transformers are inherently non-linear in their behaviour, but that is a given and it has always been that way.
Suppose you could charge an inductor with 10a of current while it is 10uH, and then discharge it when it is 1H. Or for dielectricity, imagine charging a capacitor to 5v while it is 1uF and discharging it when it is 1F. Graham's setups may very well work on different principles, but this was the type of parametric variation I was referring to.
I thought that the nut was already cracked last year. This information has been available since 2015. However, it has been one full year since the release of this information and I am not aware of any successful replications, are you?
Replication of anything is exceedingly difficult until you begin to understand the principles behind it. Damascus steel from millenia past was found to be covered with carbon nanotubes that gave it an increased strength. It wasn't until post-2000's that we discovered the details and principles behind it ??? .
Following that concept, I think that exploring the unique switching mechanisms he uses will help us gain a better understanding of the operating principles rather than blindly trying to replicate.
I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate and ensuring we maintain scientific principles, and if you have a direction you think we should be headed, please let us know. Lets just try not to veer too far off topic. If you think it's a fraud, say so.
:) rei
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@MH: While I disagree with your analysis, we can take this one elsewhere. Not gonna make this yet another angry, long-winded 100 page derail thread. Ya almost hooked me.. ::)
@Everyone:
To summarize what was presented, we effectively have a uniquely built and driven transformer circuit, with a primary and secondary.
(Primary side)
* Primary is a high-voltage, high-efficiency tank circuit, driven by an H bridge.
* Primary is contained within a 'flux loop' composed of barium ferrite ceramic magnets.
* The flux loop magnets have gaps where they meet the ferrite primary.
* Primary's position on B-H curve is important.
* Primary is driven near: 33% push, 33% pull, 33% rest.
(Secondary side)
* Low permeability ferrite secondary.
* Secondary is wound to minimize capacitance. "Gram said that by adding a 100 pf Silver-Mica capacitor between the Source and Drain of one of the Back End FETS would completely destroy the OU effect."
* Secondary feeds thru a pair of HV SiC MOSFETS to a large capacitor bank akin to a Synchronous Rectification circuit.
* The FET circuit is briefly interrupted, causing a voltage spike on the secondary coil. This interrupt lasts until this voltage spike peaks, 20nS-1uS later at as high a voltage as the FETs will allow (1.2kv for the SiC FETs used)
* This interrupt occurs midway between the Push and Pull portion of the primary (peak flux, minimum voltage).
(Control/etc)
* Control circuit is a hex inverter 'ring' circuit, with variable timing at each stage.
* Both coils are wound w/ Litz wire.
* COP is variable depending on when the interrupt occurs. Timing earlier results in higher COP but lower secondary output.
* The interrupted load spike is a critical to the effect
All photos and notes I have are available here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0_1dJJ_ezEmSzZMRmxNSFkwZmc
Anyone with questions, comments, or analysis pertaining to Gunderson's presentation, I'm happy to help :) Spokane1's had some direct conversations with Graham lately, so he's probably a very useful source as well.
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Let the performance continue, I am more than happy to watch.
Fair enough, sir, we'll leave it at that and see who hits the finish line first ;D .
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I have no idea what you are implying here Milehigh
I can't read it....
The good news is this thread will be cleaned up and get back on track hopefully
With some moderation very shortly
Another thread can be started for character assasinations , Slander libel inuendos and lawyers and such..
Hopefully all parties making such claims are prepared for such a commitment .
End of story
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Dear Reiyuki,
Let us discuss the logic board for a few days and maybe I can draft something up and figure out what is going on.
There are only 8 IC's, one Transistor, and a Voltage Regulator. Six of the IC's are the 74HC123 one shot timers in two groups. There is a partially used 74AC14. The last 8-pin DIP I can't make out, but it seems to be heavily utilized. It is on the extreme left hand side of the board.
I'm not sure where the board gets it's power or how many rails (different voltages) are being used (Probably only one). It is easy to see the data cables that go to the H-Bridge and the Backend rectifier. Determining which pins do what may take some time. Setup boards like this sometimes have their own power supplies, but this one has the terminals removed. which makes me suspect that the power supply is someplace else. For the load involved probably 300 mA at 5 volts would be more than plenty.
Graham said that only 25% of the components present were actually being used. The Ring Timer in the lower right corner seems to be connected at only one location. This sub circuit has six trim pots. The other Ring timer in the upper left corner seems to be the work horse, but it doesn't have any trim pots. To me this implies that the timing is fixed rather that variable.
I'm going to have to put in an order for IC's to DigiKey and I would like to take the best shot at getting the right parts.
I have higher resolution photos of the ones that are attached.
Spokane1
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Being discussed here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson.html)
there was some mention of a Mcfree MO ...but all is speculative ATM ,
and just to save the ink
No I don't think he is running his house on it "yet" ,but all will be open sourced !!
respectfully
Chet K
All will be open sourced! For a small fee of only two million dollars !!!
http://www.energeticforum.com/290549-post32.html
1. Replicate if you want to but it's a moving target. No point in drafting schematics, since everything will be changed.
2. When he gets around to it....
3. Won't answer "a lot of technical questions" or "teach advanced electronics" -- but some areas of "it" are advanced...
4. No further demos until he can "close the loop" --- so don't hold your breath.
5. He doesn't know why his system works. But has some interesting measurement observations.... which will be shared "later".
6. Wants to start selling stuff for "general OU work". Also wants to advance his technical interest... in music.
7. The technology is FOR SALE. Only two million dollars gets the whole bundle, including 40 hours of "training". Instrumentation not included.
Welcome to the new definition of "Open Source", only 2 million dollars ! And overunity requires not only an apparatus, but also "training". Training on how to get your own instruments to report overunity results, maybe? Training ... from someone who doesn't know why his system works? That gets a ROFL for sure.
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All will be open sourced! For a small fee of only two million dollars !!
Welcome to the new definition of "Open Source", only 2 million dollars ! And overunity requires not only an apparatus, but also "training". Training on how to get your own instruments to report overunity results, maybe? Training ... from someone who doesn't know why his system works? That gets a ROFL for sure.
Dear TinselKoala,
Your assessment is accurate. Graham did open source the technology for the duration of the conference. Then he got home and faced his financial situation, then recalled all the crap he received last year for his 1.02 OU presentation. So he changed his mind and decided he was going to make a buck with his new breakthrough and tell his landlord where to park it.
Saving the World may be a noble quest, but it doesn't pay the rent, feed the two young sons, or pay the tax man.
I suppose you have a legitimate argument, but this is the way it is going to be. Graham is not going to be joining any of these discussions or providing additional documentation.
We have about 70 photos, 10 pages of simple notes, some verbal commentary and a 1 hour lecture to come. This may or may not be enough material to do a functional reproduction, but it is a heck of a lot more than other OU technologies that have come and gone.
I have faith in Graham's work and have no doubt that it is worth the cost just to attempt to understand the principles demonstrated with this kind of apparatus.
You have a right to feel disappointed, and I don't blame you. I suppose others may feel the same way about the way things have turned out after a week.
I'm going to continue on. Check in now and then and see how things are going.
Spokane1
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All right, Spokane1, that is an answer.
Now that you are someone who seems to be familiar enough with Gunderson's work to talk about it, maybe you can also answer the question I asked earlier.
How is it that a system that draws "0.000 Watts" input, and produces some high COP value -- "infinity, but let's say around 50", still needs to be connected to its power supply in order to work?
Both sets of instruments agreed on the values being measured. From the warm up moment the unit started at 1.53 watts in and 9.43 watts out or a initial COP of 6.16. The load was a 12V automotive lamp that operated during the entire presentation. As time went on the COP improved an hour later the input wattage was down to zero (with four places of accuracy) with the output still at 9.5. That is a COP of infinity, but lets say around 50. I was in the front row to observe this. Graham reported that he has observed the input value go negative like -.25 watts in.
Do you believe these measurements and claims are accurate? If so, why can't the system simply be disconnected from the power supply?
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All right, Spokane1, that is an answer.
Now that you are someone who seems to be familiar enough with Gunderson's work to talk about it, maybe you can also answer the question I asked earlier.
How is it that a system that draws "0.000 Watts" input, and produces some high COP value -- "infinity, but let's say around 50", still needs to be connected to its power supply in order to work?
Do you believe these measurements and claims are accurate? If so, why can't the system simply be disconnected from the power supply?
Perhaps it works like the human muscle,where it needs a signal of minute power,to create an action that produces watts of energy :o -as in,our brain sends tiny electrical impulses to the muscles,and the muscles contract,providing far more energy output than the signal that triggered the action.
So maybe the bulk of the energy is stored within the transformer it self,and only needs a small electrical signal from the mains to trigger the reaction?.
How ever,reading the information MH posted about GG's past,i doubt that anything will become of it,and it is as you stated--measurement error.
The !for sale for 2 million dollars! seem to appear just at the right time ::)
Brad
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Someone mentioned that not only has Gunderson measured 0W input, but at times the input power went negative. What immediately pops into my mind is that if he was measuring the input power properly to begin with with all probe polarities correct, the input power measurement should be negative anyway.
Would someone in-the-know be so kind as to draw out a simple block diagram of the input source, device, and output load, along with the measurement probe positions? If no one knows, perhaps Graham himself would be open to providing such a diagram (it wouldn't give away any secrets so why not?)?
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I've been playing with this a little and it looks like I can get a similar wave form with just using 36vdc chopped by a mosfet switch around 21.7kHz with a 33% duty cycle to a primary coil which has a 0.002uf capacitor connected in parallel tuned to resonance (21.7kHz).
Yellow is a x100 Voltage probe across primary coil, Blue is a Tektronic P6021 current probe on negative of primary coil, Red is the product (math) of V x I and Purple is the DC output of the secondary (after FWBR to a 27,000uf cap with 20 Ohm load).
Luc
Good morning Gotoluc,
Going to try this again, first post never showed up. Could you post a picture of the setup that made this waveforms.
Your description as to how it works and built is easy to understand. Any description
of the exact construction of the coils/core/magnet assembly would really help. Your device
is electrically so much simpler that Gundersons and the aux. cicuit to harvest the output pulse during the rest would be just as simple.
This is going to be my first try at replicating your circuit..
Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP
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All right, Spokane1, that is an answer.
Now that you are someone who seems to be familiar enough with Gunderson's work to talk about it, maybe you can also answer the question I asked earlier.
How is it that a system that draws "0.000 Watts" input, and produces some high COP value -- "infinity, but let's say around 50", still needs to be connected to its power supply in order to work?
Do you believe these measurements and claims are accurate? If so, why can't the system simply be disconnected from the power supply?
Dear TinselKoala,
Again some good points to consider.
First off when this technology was presented at the conference it was only 3 weeks old. Graham has a full time day job and was in a last minute rush to consolidate his work for the presentation. There wasn't time to close the loop and risk messing up the whole process. However, this is where he is heading now in order to greatly reduce the in-out instrument hassle.
This is going to take some time and engineering. Consider that the output is about 12 VDC while the input is 200 - 230 VDC. He is going to have to construct a 12 to 230 volt DC to DC converter, most likely a design that has the highest efficiency possible. He is then going to have to develop a feedback regulation system that will input just the right amount of power to the input while sending the resulting to some storage device. Try doing that in a weekend. Custom switch mode power supplies require custom wound transformers. He is going to have to wait for next months pay check (or maybe a couple of months) before he has the money to send away for the parts.
How does the machine draw 0.000 Watts yet still need to be connected to the power supply? Well, that is what the instrument reported and that is how the equipment was working at the moment - it was not a continuous condition. A few seconds later it probably needed a few more mill watts. If that bit of energy wasn't there I suppose the process would quickly die.
It took an hour for the machine to get to that point. I watched it during the presentation. It started at 1.53 watts in and slowly dropped to zero. This was probably the critical measurement since the output was a resistive incandescent lamp that maintained it brightness throughout the discussion. What the machine would do over a 24 hour period would be interesting to analyze.
Graham has no idea why his machine is doing what it is doing. He was planning on a COP of 1.05 maybe 1.06. He got 5 to 50 after some tuning. That response kind of changes the thought paradigm.
Graham is not 100% convinced that he has a genuine OU device. There still maybe some parasitic fluke that would cause two different instrument systems to report the same numbers continuously for an hour. - I don't think so... or at least enough to want to dig into this further.
Instrument Error:
How are you going to measure the performance of your devices? (assuming you are exploring actual construction). Graham had about $10,000 worth of instrumentation (eBay used prices) that were originally bought for around $50,000. He has maintained and calibrated these instruments since 2000. These are the kind of tools that one needs to observe COP's in the 1.02 range. I don't know about you but this class of accuracy is beyond my pocket book.
If Graham were to take his machine to a standards lab or university they would use the same kinds of equipment - maybe newer, depending upon how well the department was funded. If and when some serious customer comes along they will probably bring the same kinds of tools. or they will use Grahams instruments and be right back where things were at the conference. How accurate is a used $1,000 power analyzer? A heck of a lot more accurate than my $5.00 Harbor Freight DVM or even my Fluke 87. Was that Power Analyzer working properly at the time. Well, if it wasn't the $3,000 (used price) Tektronix scope would have reported the difference - and the numbers agreed to two places of accuracy.
I'm convinced and I'm probably biased due to my long time association with Graham. I can only report what I witnessed. You are most welcome to take my testimony and use it how you may.
Spokane1
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From what I see Tinsel's point is that if there is zero input
IT WOULD NOT NEED TO BE LOOPED!
If it stops when input power is pulled it was obviously
DRAWING POWER.
JOHN.
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From what I see Tinsel's point is that if there is zero input
IT WOULD NOT NEED TO BE LOOPED!
If it stops when input power is pulled it was obviously
DRAWING POWER.
JOHN.
Dear John,
Yes that would appear to be so, however this was for a short moment not a continuous process. This process drifts. In the time frame observed it was drifting down. IF the stability of the system were rugged enough you probably could shut off the 220 VDC power supply and get 10 Watts continuous. But you are still are going to need some amount of initial excitation energy and some time to get it into that condition. IF the power requirements were drifting down I suppose that in time they would drift back up again and need a little extra juice to continue the process.
This is why closing the loop looks promising.
I don't know if Graham had the time to explore this possibility prior to the convention, probably not.
Spokane1
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Someone mentioned that not only has Gunderson measured 0W input, but at times the input power went negative. What immediately pops into my mind is that if he was measuring the input power properly to begin with with all probe polarities correct, the input power measurement should be negative anyway.
Would someone in-the-know be so kind as to draw out a simple block diagram of the input source, device, and output load, along with the measurement probe positions? If no one knows, perhaps Graham himself would be open to providing such a diagram (it wouldn't give away any secrets so why not?)?
Dear poynt99,
Yes, an updated block diagram would be nice to pass around. I shall see if I can come up with something this week end. Until then the attached photo should help with your initial questions.
The input power analyzer is on the right and the output power analyzer is on the left. The Tektronix scope is the box that Graham has his hand on.
You can see where the input scope current probe connects to the input to the conversion transformer (white wire). You can also see the red voltage probe. This is a floating differential probe with a CMR up to 1300 volts.
The input power analyzer is connected via the red and violet conductors. I'm not exactly sure where they connect.
You can probably see where the output analyzer is connected.
The last photo shows the scope output connections.
I hope this helps.
Spokane1
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Thank you, but it doesn't really help me much. I'd rather not speculate.
The pictures almost raise more questions than they answer; for example, why are there two scope probes on the output circuit side? Is he doing a differential voltage measurement and using A-B math on the scope?
I would suggest if you do come up with a diagram, post it here and also send it to Graham for his review and approval. If he gives it a thumbs up, then at least we have a starting point.
At the moment, I have no idea what the input source is even.
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I've taken the liberty to provide a possible starting point for the simple block diagram.
Let me know of any changes needed.
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I've taken the liberty to provide a possible starting point for the simple block diagram.
Let me know of any changes needed.
Dear poynt99,
That is a good start. Let me add to it with my Version 1 Block Diagram.
In the actual presentation the input energy was measured at the input of the conversion transformer after the 220 VDC linear power supply and the H-Bridge switcher.
On the back end the oscilloscope made its connections to the capacitor bank while the power analyzer connected directly to the automotive lamp.
Spokane1
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Very nice Spokane1. Obviously you've made a few diagrams in your time. ;)
One thing that sticks out immediately, is the logic controller feed to the output driver chips (the stage before the output storage caps). I would strongly urge Graham to measure the power being delivered by that feed to make sure it isn't adding significant power to the output.
The other alarm bell that is going off for me is the fact that that same output driver stage has 3 power supplies in it. They too could indirectly be contributing power to the load.
There could indeed be significant power being sourced by the logic controller and the power supplies I mentioned above, but determining if a significant portion of that power is getting to the output could be tricky.
If they are sourcing only milliwatts of power, then obviously they are not an issue. However, if the measured power is significant relative to the output power, then further investigation should ensue.
It would be nice to see detailed input power traces on the scope, and how the power was being computed (no. of cycles, MEAN, etc.). The output power measurement could be getting skewed by what I mentioned above, but the input power measurement seems more interesting since it apparently can go to 0W. I've seen that before and it was attributed to parasitic wiring inductance that was not compensated for. Once corrected, all was back to normal.
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Regarding the input power measurement and a potential source of error;
1) how long is the wiring between the h-bridge and the transformer?
2) which end are the current and voltage probes placed, near the h-bridge end or the transformer end?
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Regarding the input power measurement and a potential source of error;
1) how long is the wiring between the h-bridge and the transformer?
2) which end are the current and voltage probes placed, near the h-bridge end or the transformer end?
Dear poynt99,
I can take a shot at these two questions. The Oscilloscope current probe is connected right at the Swinging Choke and Capacitor array resonant tank, right were the Litz wire from the Conversion Transformer Primary lead connects. The Scope differential clamps connect across the capacitor array. So does the voltage connection for the input power analyzer. It is not to clear to me just where the Input Power Analyzer gets its current information from without studying the photo more closely. Reiyuki has a nice photo of the top of the capacitor array where you can see all these connections. I don't have that photo at home yet so I couldn't attach it this evening.
So the current and voltage probes for both input instruments are connected closer to the H-Bridge. There is about 8-10" of Primary lead in Litz wire that is of equal length coming from the transformer.
You bring up some good technical questions in your last post that need to be addressed. Right now I don't know for sure where the H-Bridge and the Synchronous Diode Drivers get their power. Most likely it is from that 5 voltage regulator on the logic controller coming in from those shielded ribbon cables, but it could be from the process itself.
Since the input power is measured after the H-Bridge then what ever energy was added to the input flow from the H-Bridge would be measured as part of the input power to the transformer.
The real question is to understand what is going on in the Synchronous Diode section. Do you happen to know what the upper limit of leakage power might be from a FET gate to the source-drain current path? I'm sure there is some. Would it be in the data sheet? Better yet, how much energy does it take to run his driver circuit? Lets see 10 mW, maybe 100 mW at the most. The automotive lamp was consuming about 10 watts or 10,000 mW so even if the entire gate driver energy were delivered to the output measurements we would be in error of 100/10,000 or about 1%.
I know this is a cheap way to look at the energy balance situation, but until we learn more about the details of that backend power supply this is what we have to go with for now.
Let me share some thoughts on those driver power supplies:
They are not simple. This is where the advanced electronics is going to be found. It will certainly separate the masters from the armatures. Look at the photos and attempt to start figuring out how that thing works. I know what it does. It provides the three voltages to run the driver IC's -5, +5, and +12. Graham uses negative bias to shut the FETS off and then over drives the gate to +12 volts (maximum is suppose to be +10) to turn it on. The +5 volts runs the logic on the driver IC itself.
Graham does not use gate resistors for his switching FETS. He has thus developed an approach that maximizes the performance of some pretty fast devices.
It appears that the backend network is composed of two power supplies so that each driver IC has its own power source. If I understood Graham correctly those three opto isolators on each end of the board are zener diode optos, they turn on when a certain voltage is reached, these are used as the voltage feedback sensors to operate the PWM's that drive that complex toroid transformer in the center of the circuit board. The idea is to use only as much energy as necessary. I'm sure there are several implementations to achieve the three required voltages. His is a work of art. There are also a number of additional components underneath that
circuit board that no one got a photo of.
I don't think that the method employed to provide power for the driver IC's is going to be a game stopper issue. Who knows maybe someone will discover that a single voltage driver will work as well, better yet a discovery that we don't need the super switching speeds that SiC components deliver (I can dream can't I).
Have a nice weekend,
Spokane1
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Good morning Gotoluc,
Going to try this again, first post never showed up. Could you post a picture of the setup that made this waveforms.
Your description as to how it works and built is easy to understand. Any description
of the exact construction of the coils/core/magnet assembly would really help. Your device
is electrically so much simpler that Gundersons and the aux. cicuit to harvest the output pulse during the rest would be just as simple.
This is going to be my first try at replicating your circuit..
Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP
Hi Ben,
nice to see you here :)
the coil was around 10mH with a ferrite core. Use your signal generator (at 33% duty cycle) to turn on and off the mosfet's current to the coil which has a .002uf to .005uf cap connected in parallel across it. Tune the frequency till you get (single Wave Ring) Resonance.
Kind regards
Luc
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Thank you, but it doesn't really help me much. I'd rather not speculate.
The pictures almost raise more questions than they answer; for example, why are there two scope probes on the output circuit side? Is he doing a differential voltage measurement and using A-B math on the scope?
I would suggest if you do come up with a diagram, post it here and also send it to Graham for his review and approval. If he gives it a thumbs up, then at least we have a starting point.
At the moment, I have no idea what the input source is even.
Dear poynt99,
According to what Graham said in the lecture he was using a single 10X 10 Meg probe for his output scope voltage measurement. The second probe was used to temporarily connect to a different part of the circuit for a different scope shot for some topic in the presentation. You will have to wait for the DVD download the fill in the details,
He used the differential voltage for the input scope voltage measurement because of its magnitude of 800+ Volts
Graham is not going to review my drawing and I'm not going to approach him until I have built a functioning where I can show him all the switching wave forms and what ever performance I can measure. Then I shall be ready for the master to bestow upon this novice the next step in understanding.
Scope math was used for both the input wattage and the output wattage. The data was parsed at 10 MHz and multiplied and then integrated to produce the real time wattage measurement.
The input source is a common linear Full Bridge Rectifier 220 VDC power supply with an inductor and a large capacitor for the filter section. The transformer was a 120VAC to 220 VAC ratio unit. I would say it would be rated at about 300 watts. We have some good photos of this power supply. I was going to bring them out when I compose the schematic. Since this is such a trivial part of the apparatus I haven't brought it up. I'm going to use a surplus B+ supply that has a regulated variable output - the price was right.
again Have a good evening
Spokane1
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Hi Ben, nice to see you here :)
the coil was around 10mH with a ferrite core. Use your signal generator (at 33% duty cycle) to turn on and off the mosfet's current to the coil which has a .002uf to .005uf cap connected in parallel across it. Tune the frequency till you get (single Wave Ring) Resonance.
Kind regards
Luc
Boy that sounds interesting!
Spokane1
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If a component or subsystem is necessary for the operation of a device, then the input power to that component or subsystem _MUST_ be included in the "input power" measurements of the device. Especially when overall COP is concerned. Anything else is not only incorrect... it is dishonest.
It is kind of like saying that the cost of a car trip is just the cost of the gasoline. Of course the _true_ cost of any car trip has to take into account the cost of the car itself amortized over its lifetime, maintenance, oil, wear on tires, insurance, registration, safety inspection and etc. All these items must be paid for in order for the car trip to take place.
Similarly, all necessary components of an "ou" device that receive power from any source -- especially from conventional electric power supplies -- must have their input power included in the input power to the "ou" device.
To answer one specific question about mosfet leakage from Gate to the Drain-Source circuit, consider that the mosfet Gate is essentially a capacitor. Like any other capacitor it can leak AC power to the Drain-Source part of the circuit. How much depends on the actual capacitance and the frequency and other parameters of the drive. If the power supplied to the Gate drive circuitry is ignored, and the power being switched by the mosfets themselves is ignored... yet these components are needed for the device to work.... why, using these tactics just about any device can be claimed to be "overunity" by a large margin.
For example, take my "microQEG" device. Since _all_ the input power to this device is being used to drive the mosfet gates, and is being switched by the mosfets themselves, I can just ignore it, just as the input power to Gunderson's H-bridge and synchronous rectifier mosfets is being ignored. So my device runs on _zero_ input power, by the same logic that seems to be used in saying Gunderson's device uses "0.000 watts" input power. And it lights up light bulbs too !
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Regarding the input power measurement and a potential source of error;
1) how long is the wiring between the h-bridge and the transformer?
2) which end are the current and voltage probes placed, near the h-bridge end or the transformer end?
It seems rather obvious to me that positioning a Hall Effect current probe quite near a source of external magnetic field is not "best practice". The external field is going to affect the accuracy of the measurements taken with that probe. For accurate performance the _only_ field anywhere near the probe should be that induced by the current flowing through the conductor being measured.
In fact this is usually mentioned in application notes and instruction manuals for these probes. When using Hall Effect probes on unknown circuitry, it's a good idea to confirm the probe readings by comparison to current readings taken by another method, such as the voltage drop across an inline current-viewing resistor.
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Furthermore--- the Clarke-Hess power analyzers with which I am familiar require several connections to a circuit in order to monitor it properly. To monitor Voltage the instrument is connected like any DMM, across the supply. To monitor Current the instrument is patched _in series_ with the supply and circuit being monitored. Obviously to compute a Power reading both connections must be made.
Here's a photo that you might remember, .99. It shows my (borrowed) C-H analyzer, with its patch connections, measuring the input power to a certain circuit of mine which is out of view above the instrument. Note the negative power reading.
I can haz cheezburger now?
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Dear poynt99,
I can take a shot at these two questions. The Oscilloscope current probe is connected right at the Swinging Choke and Capacitor array resonant tank, right were the Litz wire from the Conversion Transformer Primary lead connects. The Scope differential clamps connect across the capacitor array.
Ok, that's good.
So the current and voltage probes for both input instruments are connected closer to the H-Bridge. There is about 8-10" of Primary lead in Litz wire that is of equal length coming from the transformer.
;)
You bring up some good technical questions in your last post that need to be addressed.
Having additional power supplies in the device casts some doubt on the Pout measurement, and it should be checked.
Since the input power is measured after the H-Bridge then what ever energy was added to the input flow from the H-Bridge would be measured as part of the input power to the transformer.
I have no issue with the potential for power being added to the input.
The real question is to understand what is going on in the Synchronous Diode section. Do you happen to know what the upper limit of leakage power might be from a FET gate to the source-drain current path? I'm sure there is some. Would it be in the data sheet? Better yet, how much energy does it take to run his driver circuit? Lets see 10 mW, maybe 100 mW at the most. The automotive lamp was consuming about 10 watts or 10,000 mW so even if the entire gate driver energy were delivered to the output measurements we would be in error of 100/10,000 or about 1%.
Agreed. As I wrote, these can be checked, and if insignificant, can be ignored. The more interesting part for me is the Pin measurement.
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Dear poynt99,
According to what Graham said in the lecture he was using a single 10X 10 Meg probe for his output scope voltage measurement. The second probe was used to temporarily connect to a different part of the circuit for a different scope shot for some topic in the presentation.
That is what I figured.
Scope math was used for both the input wattage and the output wattage. The data was parsed at 10 MHz and multiplied and then integrated to produce the real time wattage measurement.
What do you mean by "parsed at 10MHz"? I hope he used "MEAN" on the product and not some integration math function to obtain the average input and output wattages?
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Hi Ben,
nice to see you here :)
the coil was around 10mH with a ferrite core. Use your signal generator (at 33% duty cycle) to turn on and off the mosfet's current to the coil which has a .002uf to .005uf cap connected in parallel across it. Tune the frequency till you get (single Wave Ring) Resonance.
Kind regards
Luc
Good morning Luc,
Good to run into you again too! Thanks for the additional info. A simple and unique way to get this waveform. Using the original information in your post, knowing the Cap. I had calculated the Inductance to be in that range.
Each little bit of information helps! My 2 X 4 worlds smallest lab is a mess right now due to finishing up a high end R/C sailplane, but will spend the day cleaning it up,
getting a good sig. gen. out of storage, drag out my power supplies and variac, proto board, Opto Isolater, find a good FET in my junk box,
and I might have some results in a day or two. Due to my limited space, building anything requires removing everything else and setting up what I need for the particular experiment. A Chinese fire drill! This concept totally intrigues me!
BTW, do you remember what caused that hash spike or ringing at the start of the "rest" period? Diode (in FET)/switching transient, etc?
Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP
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It seems rather obvious to me that positioning a Hall Effect current probe quite near a source of external magnetic field is not "best practice". The external field is going to affect the accuracy of the measurements taken with that probe. For accurate performance the _only_ field anywhere near the probe should be that induced by the current flowing through the conductor being measured.
In fact this is usually mentioned in application notes and instruction manuals for these probes. When using Hall Effect probes on unknown circuitry, it's a good idea to confirm the probe readings by comparison to current readings taken by another method, such as the voltage drop across an inline current-viewing resistor.
Agreed.
It also concerns me when I see the diff probe amplifier sitting on top of a large stack of magnets.
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TK,
I have no issue with Gunderson measuring his Pin after the H-bridge. I think we can cut him some slack here, as obviously the transformer gadget is the DUT. It just requires a particular input wave form.
If the transformer itself is measured to have a COP>1 that is all that counts, right?
If you had a DUT that required a square wave input, you would measure the output power of your FG, not its AC input, agreed?
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Furthermore--- the Clarke-Hess power analyzers with which I am familiar require several connections to a circuit in order to monitor it properly. To monitor Voltage the instrument is connected like any DMM, across the supply. To monitor Current the instrument is patched _in series_ with the supply and circuit being monitored. Obviously to compute a Power reading both connections must be made.
Here's a photo that you might remember, .99. It shows my (borrowed) C-H analyzer, with its patch connections, measuring the input power to a certain circuit of mine which is out of view above the instrument. Note the negative power reading.
I can haz cheezburger now?
Indeed, there goes the 8-10" of wire connection. I also noticed that Graham had the measurement wiring threading a couple of toroid cores.
Attached is the photo showing the load meter. The voltage side is connected, but the current side appears to be bypassed in this photo. Alas, that is a lot of extra wiring and will introduce a fair bit of parasitic inductance.
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My 2 X 4 worlds smallest lab is a mess right now due to finishing up a high end R/C sailplane, but will spend the day cleaning it up,
getting a good sig. gen. out of storage, drag out my power supplies and variac, proto board, Opto Isolater, find a good FET in my junk box,
and I might have some results in a day or two. Due to my limited space, building anything requires removing everything else and setting up what I need for the particular experiment. A Chinese fire drill!
It's quite amazing what you've been able to do over the years in your 2x4 lab Ben. Makes me smile :) each time I see one of your videos
BTW, do you remember what caused that hash spike or ringing at the start of the "rest" period? Diode (in FET)/switching transient, etc?
Sorry I don't know. BTW, I not claiming there,s anything special to the waveform I've produce other then it looks much like Graham's
All the best in your experiments
Luc
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I can haz cheezburger now?
Dear TinselKoala,
Graham never once during the presentation, or any time after, claimed to have an OU device. He only presented the fasts as he observed them.
It is I who made the OU assertion when I first started to report on this subject on 7/12/2016. I take full responsibility for possibly miss-representing the true performance of this technology or making any OU statements in the first place.
Your obvious professional expertise in this kind of review is the sort of test that this emergent technology will have to face when this device enters the university standards lab. (give it a year if there are no buyers) I appreciate your observations and comments about the numerous measurement details and potential flaws that you see in this apparatus.
I hope you stick around and keep those spot on observations coming. It will make me pay much closer attention to where and how instruments are connected - especially for documentation. Graham is a measurement freak. You and he could probably talk some pretty heavy shop talk - if he wasn't so wrapped up in this new love affair.
From my applied engineering experience, I figure that the high observed COP's (which may be off somewhat) will provide plenty of head room to cover the losses going to FET drivers and associated house keeping functions. I don't vision this particular device as becoming a commercial product. I see it as a way to possibly understand a new physics that will unlock the secrets of the Gray technology - since the two are very close in my opinion.
If and when we reconstruct a machine that will deliver 7.5 kW (10 HP) at a COP of 282 then discussions of where the power analyzer makes its connections, or accounting for FET driver losses in the measurements will become trivial footnotes. However, I agree these issues are important at this stage.
This is why I'm going full steam in a reproduction and documentation attempt to crack this nut. It probably will not achieve anything at all, but it might, just might provide one missing key for me to advance a truly powerful lost technology.
Spokane1
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I can haz cheezburger now?
I'll gladly buy you that Cheese Burger if you make out to Spokane some time. My favorite is the Wendy's #2 with Blue Cheese crumbles.
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I'll gladly buy you that Cheese Burger if you make out to Spokane some time. My favorite is the Wendy's #2 with Blue Cheese crumbles.
OMGyou have managed to cause salivation at a distance of 3000+ miles!!
:)
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It's quite amazing what you've been able to do over the years in your 2x4 lab Ben. Makes me smile :) each time I see one of your videos
Sorry I don't know. BTW, I not claiming there,s anything special to the waveform I've produce other then it looks much like Graham's
All the best in your experiments
Luc
Thanks Luc,
I still manage to loose stuff while working! Like where did I put that "special" resistor, etc. :)
However I do like the simplicity of your circuit!!!!
I personally like a "Whopper" heavy everything!!!!
Thanks
Ben K4ZEP
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Gents
Some clarity on TK's happy meal ,"I Has cheeseburger ??"
In the gentlemans bet department ...
We bet with fast food on ultimate outcomes,
I think I owe Tinsel a small boxcars worth of Cheeseburgers at this point.
But the answer to that "I has cheeseburger??"
NOT YET !!
Havent even fired up the griddle on this one yet Tinsel.....
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Did someone mention "Cheeseburger". I know things are really getting serious when I see that. I can't do anything about this build but I am watching with great interest. The people working here are some of the best on this forum. I think it is a simple miss measurement personally but you guys will find out. I have known some of you for years and the truth to this invention will come out one way or another. Cheeseburgers all around for the good effort. :D
--Rusty
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TK,
I have no issue with Gunderson measuring his Pin after the H-bridge. I think we can cut him some slack here, as obviously the transformer gadget is the DUT. It just requires a particular input wave form.
If the transformer itself is measured to have a COP>1 that is all that counts, right?
If you had a DUT that required a square wave input, you would measure the output power of your FG, not its AC input, agreed?
It depends. If the FG was only providing a clock input then it might be acceptable to measure only its power output. But in this case the H-bridge is providing the power to the transformer, and as such is a critical part of the device. OK, I'll accept that you can ignore the timing input to the H-bridge, but you cannot ignore the input of power that is being switched by the bridge.
I've obviously encountered this issue before, and I've built oscillator-driver circuits that are powered by the overall power supply to the DUT, or even from the bank of batteries that the DUT is supposed to be charging (hence "output") so that there is no question about where the power is coming from.
I say again, if a component or subsystem is necessary for the device to operate, the power supplied to those components or subsystems must be included in the "input power" of the device. For a simple square wave clock signal, obviously what is generating this signal could be a mains powered FG, or it could be replaced with an oscillator-driver that is powered from the DUT's own power supply or even its output power. But in this case the H-bridge is supplying power to the transformer over the link where a measurement of "0.000 Watts" has been quoted, yet the device keeps running, and this link cannot be broken if the device is to keep on running. Hence the H-bridge is a critical component of the DUT and its input power must be included in the COP calculation.
OK, I will allow the power to the _clock_ signal generator for the H-bridge to be ignored, but not the power that is being switched by the H-bridge, this must be included.
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I'll gladly buy you that Cheese Burger if you make out to Spokane some time. My favorite is the Wendy's #2 with Blue Cheese crumbles.
I'd love to take you up on that offer! I'm sure that, working together, we could get some real performance out of that cheese.
Unfortunately, much as I'd like to, the chances of me travelling to Spokane are not good. But I do what I can, even if it is only offering criticism (hopefully seen as constructive) at the moment.
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Indeed, there goes the 8-10" of wire connection. I also noticed that Graham had the measurement wiring threading a couple of toroid cores.
Attached is the photo showing the load meter. The voltage side is connected, but the current side appears to be bypassed in this photo. Alas, that is a lot of extra wiring and will introduce a fair bit of parasitic inductance.
That photo of the C-H power analyzer with the Current input not connected and bypassed by the red cliplead is kind of disturbing. I certainly hope that this is not the configuration that gave the "0.000 Watts" measurement cited in the reports !!
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These are the release dates for the videos from the conference. These were posted by Aaron a little while ago.
Release schedule so far:
7/25/2016 PAUL BABCOCK – BABCOCK DC MOTOR DISCLOSURE
7/27/2016 AARON MURAKAMI - COLD ELECTRICITY CIRCUIT
7/29/2016 PANEL DISCUSSION
8/1/2016 JIM MURRAY – FUNDAMENTALS OF THE TRANSFORMING GENERATOR
8/3/2016 GRAHAM GUNDERSON – MAGNETIC IMPLOSION TRANSFORMER
8/5/2016 MICHAEL WATERS – OPEN SYSTEM PHYSICS AND THERMODYNAMICS
8/9/2016 PETER LINDEMANN - BEDINI SG: BEYOND THE ADVANCED HANDBOOK
8/11/2016 KEN ROCHON - USING SOCIAL MEDIA TO SPREAD THE BREAKTHROUGH ENERGY MESSAGE
8/15/2016 ERIC DOLLARD – ELECTRICAL TRANSMISSION IN MULTIPLE COORDINATE SYSTEMS
8/18/2016 MORAY B. KING – FROM NANOBUBBLES TO BALL LIGHTNING: AN OVERVIEW OF NEW ENERGY POSSIBILITIES
8/23/2016 PROFESSOR ROBERT M. HARALICK – PARAMAGNETIC AND DIAMAGNETIC FIELD EXPERIMENTS
8/25/2016 AARON MURAKAMI – PULSED PLASMA MOTOR – KEY TO THE GRAY MOTOR?
8/27/2016 AARON MURAKAMI - SCOTCH YOKE BOB TEAL MOTOR
So it looks like you will be able to purchase the video on the Graham Gunderson demo on Aug. 3rd
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These are the release dates for the videos from the conference. These were posted by Aaron a little while ago.
Release schedule so far:
7/25/2016 PAUL BABCOCK – BABCOCK DC MOTOR DISCLOSURE
7/27/2016 AARON MURAKAMI - COLD ELECTRICITY CIRCUIT
7/29/2016 PANEL DISCUSSION
8/1/2016 JIM MURRAY – FUNDAMENTALS OF THE TRANSFORMING GENERATOR
8/3/2016 GRAHAM GUNDERSON – MAGNETIC IMPLOSION TRANSFORMER
8/5/2016 MICHAEL WATERS – OPEN SYSTEM PHYSICS AND THERMODYNAMICS
8/9/2016 PETER LINDEMANN - BEDINI SG: BEYOND THE ADVANCED HANDBOOK
8/11/2016 KEN ROCHON - USING SOCIAL MEDIA TO SPREAD THE BREAKTHROUGH ENERGY MESSAGE
8/15/2016 ERIC DOLLARD – ELECTRICAL TRANSMISSION IN MULTIPLE COORDINATE SYSTEMS
8/18/2016 MORAY B. KING – FROM NANOBUBBLES TO BALL LIGHTNING: AN OVERVIEW OF NEW ENERGY POSSIBILITIES
8/23/2016 PROFESSOR ROBERT M. HARALICK – PARAMAGNETIC AND DIAMAGNETIC FIELD EXPERIMENTS
8/25/2016 AARON MURAKAMI – PULSED PLASMA MOTOR – KEY TO THE GRAY MOTOR?
8/27/2016 AARON MURAKAMI - SCOTCH YOKE BOB TEAL MOTOR
So it looks like you will be able to purchase the video on the Graham Gunderson demo on Aug. 3rd
Sadly not one demonstrated any Free energy or overunity
Kind Regards
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Edited
Brad
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TK,
I have no issue with Gunderson measuring his Pin after the H-bridge. I think we can cut him some slack here, as obviously the transformer gadget is the DUT. It just requires a particular input wave form.
If the transformer itself is measured to have a COP>1 that is all that counts, right?
If you had a DUT that required a square wave input, you would measure the output power of your FG, not its AC input, agreed?
Look at it this way. The measurement point is measuring the input to the transformer. But this same point is also the _output_ of the H-bridge. If the H-bridge is putting out "0.000 Watts" but is still able to power something downstream, like a 10 watt brake light bulb.... wouldn't you want to know what the _input power_ to this magical H-bridge is? And where its input power is going?
Maybe it is the _H-bridge_ that is the special DUT and the transformer is just another Red Herring. (insert tongue in cheek emoticon here.)
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So why was the information that MH posted on GGs past removed from this thread?-->is this thread now being censored ?.
Brad
What's the matter? If "Open Source" now costs two million dollars (USD, that is 2.68 million AUD), and some incomplete information about it is being sold as DVDs, videos, downloads, etc., then what's surprising about information being censored?
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edited
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It depends. If the FG was only providing a clock input then it might be acceptable to measure only its power output. But in this case the H-bridge is providing the power to the transformer, and as such is a critical part of the device. OK, I'll accept that you can ignore the timing input to the H-bridge, but you cannot ignore the input of power that is being switched by the bridge.
I've obviously encountered this issue before, and I've built oscillator-driver circuits that are powered by the overall power supply to the DUT, or even from the bank of batteries that the DUT is supposed to be charging (hence "output") so that there is no question about where the power is coming from.
I say again, if a component or subsystem is necessary for the device to operate, the power supplied to those components or subsystems must be included in the "input power" of the device. For a simple square wave clock signal, obviously what is generating this signal could be a mains powered FG, or it could be replaced with an oscillator-driver that is powered from the DUT's own power supply or even its output power. But in this case the H-bridge is supplying power to the transformer over the link where a measurement of "0.000 Watts" has been quoted, yet the device keeps running, and this link cannot be broken if the device is to keep on running. Hence the H-bridge is a critical component of the DUT and its input power must be included in the COP calculation.
OK, I will allow the power to the _clock_ signal generator for the H-bridge to be ignored, but not the power that is being switched by the H-bridge, this must be included.
As far as I can tell, the special transformer (DUT) itself requires no auxiliary power source or switching input of its own. (yes I know about the active diode network on the output, but I'm not referring to that) Would you agree?
Therefore you can think of the h-bridge as the input power supply, just like the battery is in a variety of other dc-powered devices such as the Joule Thief. As such, the Pin measurement should be captured at the output of the h-bridge, as it is the power source. In other words, Gunderson is measuring at the proper point for input power.
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Obviously I disagree.
The input to the transformer is indeed switched or cycled, that is, the H-bridge is being clocked at a definite mix of frequencies. It is not simply providing a +/- voltage input to the transformer. As Smudge has determined, the H-bridge waveform is a sinusoid at 75 kHz but is being chopped or switched or gated at 50 kHz so that the "input" to the transformer is one full cycle of a near-perfect sinusoid (from an H-bridge!) followed by a dead time equal to one half-period of the sinusoid. See the attached scopeshot below.
Furthermore, what do you make of this statement:
Also, Gram said that by adding a 100 pf Silver-Mica capacitor between the Source and Drain of one of the Back End FETS would completely destroy the OU effect.
If by "back end FETs" he means the H-bridge, then it becomes very clear that the exact specifics of the H-bridge and its drive parameters are critical to the performance of the entire unit. Therefore the power supplied to the H-bridge is part of the power necessary to produce the effect and must be included in the "input power" for the COP calculation. Ditto for the FETs in the "synchronous diode".
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Obviously I disagree.
The input to the transformer is indeed switched or cycled, that is, the H-bridge is being clocked at a definite mix of frequencies. It is not simply providing a +/- voltage input to the transformer. As Smudge has determined, the H-bridge waveform is a sinusoid at 75 kHz but is being chopped or switched or gated at 50 kHz so that the "input" to the transformer is one full cycle of a near-perfect sinusoid (from an H-bridge!) followed by a dead time equal to one half-period of the sinusoid. See the attached scopeshot below.
I didn't say the input to the transformer was a +/- voltage. What I did say was that the h-bridge is the power source for the input to the transformer. In terms of the input power measurement, the wave form going into the transformer is irrelevant (the scope setup will handle anything thrown at it). The H-bridge is simply the power source (with a custom wave form), nothing more.
"Back end" would be referring to the synchronous diode circuitry I think.
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In terms of input power measurement the waveforms are irrelevant because the scope can handle anything thrown at it... but in terms of the device operating as claimed, the waveforms are _very_ relevant. Supply it with DC for example.... the scope measures this power just fine, but the device will not work. It must be supplied with the correct waveforms in order to work, and in order for the "input power" to be "zero" the waveforms must have a specific relationship.
As Smudge has pointed out, the "input power" as seen by the scope is a result of multiplying two waveforms that are almost exactly 90 degrees out of phase. This is why they result in a "zero" average power measurement.
If this is considered as the "input power" to the device, then I am happy to report that I have a handful of devices here in my lab that also count as massively OU, because the "input power" measured at the primary coil is also made up of current and voltage waveforms that are 90 degrees out of phase, hence resulting in a "zero" average input power. Yet the secondary outputs of the air-core transformers will light up bulbs, charge capacitors to high voltage, even run motors.
So by the same logic that seems to be applied here, I have had these "OU" high COP devices sitting around for years already. And they are simple and cheap to build, require no "unobtanium" parts, have been fully described and demonstrated and I am still willing to discuss them.
So wherz my 2 million cheezburgerz? ;D
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http://www.google.com/patents/US7830065 (http://www.google.com/patents/US7830065) (whom belongs the patent rights ? Chava ( Energy ) Llc ?)
The mechanical action of an electrical generator is thereby synthesized without use of moving parts.
ttps://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2016070292 (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2016070292)
VOLTAGE SYNTHESIZER BASIC BUILDING BLOCK CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS
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Chet K, you ought to be moderated yourself.
John.
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Minnie
Start a forum of your own and hang your name on the door and start calling out known persons by their full name and associate them with things which they had nothing to do with.
It has no place here ,and is unethical to say the least .
And criminal in most countries .
MileHiigh did this at OUR and got the owner in trouble with lawsuit threats.
And to be clear the threats were well on their way to realities...
If you have issues about how Stefan runs his forum perhaps you should ask HIM about these things ?
Or start your own...
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
I see Minnie's request below ,I am traveling and working out of town .
I will Gladly Discuss this upon return .
And to be PERFECTLY CLEAR ,I have never asked for Miles to be banned [and Specifically stated that when I was Speaking with Stefan]. ,I too appreciate his technical contributions .
However If his contributions become a personal liability to Stefan .
That's a no Brainer ...
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Chet K,
PM. me and explain what was wrong.
I've learned a lot from MH.
John.
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Considering TK's described scenario, a question to all:
With a given black box power source producing a pure sine wave, and when measured the voltage and current are precisely 90º out of phase, could there be real power delivered and measured at the load?
See attached representation of this hypothetical setup.
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If this is considered as the "input power" to the device, then I am happy to report that I have a handful of devices here in my lab that also count as massively OU, because the "input power" measured at the primary coil is also made up of current and voltage waveforms that are 90 degrees out of phase, hence resulting in a "zero" average input power. Yet the secondary outputs of the air-core transformers will light up bulbs, charge capacitors to high voltage, even run motors.
I didn't say the input power is to be measured at the primary coil.
Input power must always be measured at the source itself. In the case of Gunderson's H-bridge, that would be right at its output. Just as in the case of Ainslie's battery, where the measurement should have been taken right at the battery terminals, not at the other end of 30 feet of wire where the "phase" relationship becomes grossly skewed.
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I didn't say the input power is to be measured at the primary coil.
Input power must always be measured at the source itself. In the case of Gunderson's H-bridge, that would be right at its output. Just as in the case of Ainslie's battery, where the measurement should have been taken right at the battery terminals, not at the other end of 30 feet of wire where the "phase" relationship becomes grossly skewed.
Well, then, my measurements of my devices definitely qualify, because there is very little distance between the thick PCB traces that connect the mosfet Drains to the capacitors of the tank circuit and the primary coil, and I am attaching my probes quite near the board or even sometimes directly to the mosfet drains, whereas the coil itself has perhaps 6 cm (x2) of straight wire standing it off of the board. The 0.25 ohm non-inductive Ayrton-Perry-wound current-viewing resistor pair is at the board end of one of the coil legs.
However as you have poynted out, Gunderson's measurements are apparently taken nearer to the transformer rather than directly at the H-bridge output. The actual distance is unknown (at least by me).
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Considering TK's described scenario, a question to all:
With a given black box power source producing a pure sine wave, and when measured the voltage and current are precisely 90º out of phase, could there be real power delivered and measured at the load?
See attached representation of this hypothetical setup.
Even though the current and voltage are 90 degrees out of phase, the _current_ is very real and in the devices we are discussing can be pretty large, tens or even hundreds of amps. This current produces a very real, changing magnetic field, which in turn can induce a voltage in another magnetically coupled coil, even at some distance. Can this induced secondary voltage then provide real power to a load?
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Even though the current and voltage are 90 degrees out of phase, the _current_ is very real and in the devices we are discussing can be pretty large, tens or even hundreds of amps. This current produces a very real, changing magnetic field, which in turn can induce a voltage in another magnetically coupled coil, even at some distance. Can this induced secondary voltage then provide real power to a load?
A simple yes or no would suffice. Can there be real power measured and delivered to the load in the setup shown in my diagram, assuming a non-OU device as the DUT?
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Well, then, my measurements of my devices definitely qualify, because there is very little distance between the thick PCB traces that connect the mosfet Drains to the capacitors of the tank circuit and the primary coil, and I am attaching my probes quite near the board or even sometimes directly to the mosfet drains, whereas the coil itself has perhaps 6 cm (x2) of straight wire standing it off of the board. The 0.25 ohm non-inductive Ayrton-Perry-wound current-viewing resistor pair is at the board end of one of the coil legs.
However as you have poynted out, Gunderson's measurements are apparently taken nearer to the transformer rather than directly at the H-bridge output. The actual distance is unknown (at least by me).
What frequency is this device running at?
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Obviously I disagree.
Furthermore, what do you make of this statement:If by "back end FETs" he means the H-bridge, then it becomes very clear that the exact specifics of the H-bridge and its drive parameters are critical to the performance of the entire unit. Therefore the power supplied to the H-bridge is part of the power necessary to produce the effect and must be included in the "input power" for the COP calculation. Ditto for the FETs in the "synchronous diode".
Dear TinselKoala,
Graham was referring to one of the Synchronous Diode FET's that he pointed out and put his fingers on when commenting on the impact of placing that a pF capacitor at that location.
Spokane1
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Dear Builders,
While a most interesting discussion rages between the measurement specialists the rest of us builders can get down to the real task at hand. Here is a first run dissection of the logic board. More details to follow this week as I get time at work to draft the actual schematic.
Spokane1
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What frequency is this device running at?
The MicroQEG runs at about 300 kHz and the wireless transmitter/receiver systems run typically around 800-900 kHz.
Here's an image of one of the wireless transmitter systems under construction. Missing are the chokes, heatsinks and single-turn output loop.
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@Spokane1: Thanks for posting that clear photo of the breadboard. And good luck on drawing out the schematic!
However, if it turns out that the "overunity" is a result of improper and/or imprecise measurements... what then is the point? I should think that the priority would be to address the measurement issues on GG's actual device first, to confirm (or disconfirm) the validity of the measurements. Of course this would require his cooperation, which I realize we are unlikely to get. What would be the point in "replicating" a complex device if it turns out that there is nothing really unusual about it except that it is a measurement nightmare? Especially if one can obtain the same kind of measurement results using much simpler and cheaper circuitry...
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Dear TinselKoala,
Graham was referring to one of the Synchronous Diode FET's that he pointed out and put his fingers on when commenting on the impact of placing that a pF capacitor at that location.
Spokane1
OK, thanks. And what are the implications of that? How and why does placing a small capacitance across one of the SD FETs kill the overunity effect? This is on the _output_ side of the transformer, right? If the transformer is the OU component, how could something downstream of it make the OU go away?
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OK, thanks. And what are the implications of that? How and why does placing a small capacitance across one of the SD FETs kill the overunity effect? This is on the _output_ side of the transformer, right? If the transformer is the OU component, how could something downstream of it make the OU go away?
Something of very high frequency going to ground by capacitor which is short in hf ???
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@Spokane1: Thanks for posting that clear photo of the breadboard. And good luck on drawing out the schematic!
However, if it turns out that the "overunity" is a result of improper and/or imprecise measurements... what then is the point? I should think that the priority would be to address the measurement issues on GG's actual device first, to confirm (or disconfirm) the validity of the measurements. Of course this would require his cooperation, which I realize we are unlikely to get. What would be the point in "replicating" a complex device if it turns out that there is nothing really unusual about it except that it is a measurement nightmare? Especially if one can obtain the same kind of measurement results using much simpler and cheaper circuitry...
Dear TinselKoala,
We may be facing a gross instrument error as you have pointed out. However, as I have said before the approach employed by Graham is so darn close to the same excitation protocol use in the Gray Technology that I can't help but take notice. I don't know if you are a betting man, but setting all the instrumentation issues aside for the moment, what are the chances that inventors 50 years apart would claim and tentatively measure significant OU properties using the same fundamental approach? To me (and I only speak for myself) it is well worth at least a year and $3k to dig into this mystery.
It would be helpful to me if you describe what your recommended testing protocol would be for this kind of device. It will be several weeks before I get to that point, but think about it now and then. I can make provisions in the power supply layout that will help account for the power to the FET drivers and any other leakage points you have observed.
The fundamental operating frequency will be around 50 kHz. The Gray system ran at 46 KHz. This does not include all the harmonics created by those weird discontinuous wave forms.
I don't see how the H-Bridge is going to get much closer to the conversion transformer without getting in the way. So, there is going to be 8" - 10" between the H-Bridge/Tank and the transformer primary. The capacitor array can be consolidated. Actually it could probably be moved to the top of the transformer if it doesn't get in the way of the bias PM's.
From scanning your posts I believe you are concerned by phase shift differences for the traveling RF. How much of a phase shift are we looking at over a 10" distance at 50 kHz? This would be handy information going forward. I'm sure there is some way to measure or calculate it. Perhaps standard wave length calculations don't count in the measurement business when dealing with real circuits and all the parasitic parameters.
How about taking all the input energy (including the driver and logic power) from a 220 VDC battery array then measure the DC energy in and the DC energy out. Would this approach eliminate these RF phase delay questions? This is doable I suppose a well regulated power supply would work just as well. If this technology is viable then we might need an extra 25% more input power. That would raise the measured input power from 1.53 watts to 1.91 watts . That would lower the COP from 6.12 to 5.07 and address all your measurement concerns (I think). This assumes that the output power can remain at 10 watts.
Anyway, how good are you at TTL? I have one IC on the logic board that I can't identify (yet). Do you have enough experience to know what chip it should be by looking at the connected components? I don't.
Also, I notice that you quote Dr. Feynman at the bottom of your posts. I thought you might be interested in a book that Graham's uses as his EM Bible. It is written by a close colleague of Dr. Feynman. In the preface Carver Mead recounts how Dr. Feynman was the inspiration and support for this book.
Back to decoding photos. I've had lost of experience doing this with the E.V. Gray materials.
Spokane1
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Let the Junk Box Replication Experiments Begin!
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Let the Junk Box Replication Experiments Begin!
Right on Mark!
Ben K4ZEP
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Considering TK's described scenario, a question to all:
With a given black box power source producing a pure sine wave, and when measured the voltage and current are precisely 90º out of phase, could there be real power delivered and measured at the load?
See attached representation of this hypothetical setup.
Yes,there most defiantly can be real power delivered to the load in this case,and the higher the frequency,the greater the real power delivered to the load.
Brad
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@Spokane1:
Yes, I've done a bit of TTL design. I may be able to figure out the unknown chip if you can provide an actual schematic. No way I can do it from just looking at the photo of the breadboard.
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The MicroQEG runs at about 300 kHz and the wireless transmitter/receiver systems run typically around 800-900 kHz.
Here's an image of one of the wireless transmitter systems under construction. Missing are the chokes, heatsinks and single-turn output loop.
And fwiw I was able to find the "first light" testing image of the completed system with its receiver, lighting up an incandescent bulb.
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@Spokane1:
Yes, I've done a bit of TTL design. I may be able to figure out the unknown chip if you can provide an actual schematic. No way I can do it from just looking at the photo of the breadboard.
TK, your a comedian!. ;D If he had a schematic, he wouldn't need your help!
Ben K4ZEP
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And fwiw I was able to find the "first light" testing image of the completed system with its receiver, lighting up an incandescent bulb.
First done by Hertz in 1887, spark gap transmitter, same wire loop receiver.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Early+demonstration+of+RF+waves&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPm_jU543OAhWSMx4KHQ1FCvsQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=656&dpr=4#imgrc=qSY4blM-XYKe9M%3A
Nothing new, nice workmanship I might say, no instrumentation though.
Ben K4ZEP
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TK, your a comedian!. ;D If he had a schematic, he wouldn't need your help!
Ben K4ZEP
I'm glad you think I'm a comedian, but I'm not being funny here, at least not intentionally. Nor am I a mind reader. Slow down and take a deep breath. Of course if he _had_ a complete schematic he would not need my help. But he doesn't, he is trying to draw one from looking at the breadboard.
Anyway, how good are you at TTL? I have one IC on the logic board that I can't identify (yet). Do you have enough experience to know what chip it should be by looking at the connected components? I don't.
He hasn't indicated which chip he can't identify and I can't tell what the connected components are from looking at the photo. Once he has drawn a schematic from the photo showing which chip is unidentified and which are known, plus all components he can identify, I might be able to help.
(One wonders why he doesn't just ask Gunderson what the chip is ... :-\ )
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First done by Hertz in 1887, spark gap transmitter, same wire loop receiver.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Early+demonstration+of+RF+waves&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPm_jU543OAhWSMx4KHQ1FCvsQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=656&dpr=4#imgrc=qSY4blM-XYKe9M%3A (https://www.google.com/search?q=Early+demonstration+of+RF+waves&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPm_jU543OAhWSMx4KHQ1FCvsQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=656&dpr=4#imgrc=qSY4blM-XYKe9M%3A)
Nothing new, nice workmanship I might say, no instrumentation though.
Ben K4ZEP
Thanks... but wrong. Do you see a spark gap in my system? And this system is a near-field electromagnetic system that is precisely tuned, not a broadband RF system. Just about the only resemblance to a Hertzian system is the loop, which in my receiver system is actually a loosely coupled transformer secondary that forms part of a high-Q tank circuit.
It's not new, that much is true, but it's not Hertzian. The Hertzian system can generate a little spark in its receiver, that's all. I get constant AC and/or DC power out of mine, depending on the details of the receiver circuit. And it even works under water.
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Wireless Submarine, batteries not required! :)
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Thanks... but wrong. Do you see a spark gap in my system? And this system is a near-field electromagnetic system that is precisely tuned, not a broadband RF system. Just about the only resemblance to a Hertzian system is the loop, which in my receiver system is actually a loosely coupled transformer secondary that forms part of a high-Q tank circuit.
It's not new, that much is true, but it's not Hertzian. The Hertzian system can generate a little spark in its receiver, that's all. I get constant AC and/or DC power out of mine, depending on the details of the receiver circuit. And it even works under water.
Nah, You, RF generator, solid state. Hertz, RF generator spark gap. You, near field, Hertz, near field. It's just a nice well engineered modern day demonstration,
using all the solid state goodies of Hertz device with application of later near field theory and resonance. This is not new!
Besides not working under water(tested by dunking both units as shown in salt water, no orientation of receiver, output smoke, hydrogen and oxygen) I bet it works in space,
glows when held in your hand and will not electrocute you. PLUS it could charge your cell phone and toothbrush.
TK, your better than this, quit mucking with the less informed. Sorry gang, I'm way off topic and I apologize.
After the last few days of reading post, I need a bit of levity! Back to Gunderson.
Ben K4ZEP
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@Spokane1:
Yes, I've done a bit of TTL design. I may be able to figure out the unknown chip if you can provide an actual schematic. No way I can do it from just looking at the photo of the breadboard.
Dear TK,
Thanks for the offer. I kind of thought that you up might be up on this sort of stuff. I didn't expect you to derive it from the photo. I'm going to draft it up and then we could have evaluated it. However, upon a further examination I found the right number it was a TS556. Now all of the IC's are identified. The next challenge is attempting to figure out what he was doing for his +5 volt regulator. I thought it was a 7805 and a transistor, but the connections don't make sense. Maybe you can take a stab at this from the photo.
Spokane1
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(One wonders why he doesn't just ask Gunderson what the chip is ... :-\ )
Dear TK,
On the Monday after the convention I phoned up Graham and asked for a list of the components that I was intending to order as to get a head start on this replication. That is when he dropped the bomb on me that he had changed his mind on the Open Source Idea. He didn't tell me what the part numbers were and instead describe his personal reasons for changing his mind. I left it there.
I'm not going to ask him again.
We have what we have with his permission. I know its way less than what everybody here wants, especially since I made the OU claims (Not Graham).
This is not the best circumstance to do a peer review of a potential breakthrough technology, but its a great opportunity for us builders to dig into new dreams.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
Thanks for the offer. I kind of thought that you up might be up on this sort of stuff. I didn't expect you to derive it from the photo. I'm going to draft it up and then we could have evaluated it. However, upon a further examination I found the right number it was a TS556. Now all of the IC's are identified. The next challenge is attempting to figure out what he was doing for his +5 volt regulator. I thought it was a 7805 and a transistor, but the connections don't make sense. Maybe you can take a stab at this from the photo.
Spokane1
Evening Spokane1,
Looks to me like a 7805 regulator boot straped with another transistor for further current capability, hence heatsink. See:https://www.google.com/search?q=7805+regulator+with+bootstrap+higher+current+transistor&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV-v_muI_OAhUFJx4KHZIlApEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=656
and select images and a whole possie of schematics there. It could be a voltage regulator or a constant current source, probably a voltage regulator.
Choose the circuit that matches what you got. Is it possible the +12VDC feed for it is coming from the output board?
Ben
K4ZEP
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Dear TK,
On the Monday after the convention I phoned up Graham and asked for a list of the components that I was intending to order as to get a head start on this replication. That is when he dropped the bomb on me that he had changed his mind on the Open Source Idea. He didn't tell me what the part numbers were and instead describe his personal reasons for changing his mind. I left it there.
I'm not going to ask him again.
We have what we have with his permission. I know its way less than what everybody here wants, especially since I made the OU claims (Not Graham).
This is not the best circumstance to do a peer review of a potential breakthrough technology, but its a great opportunity for us builders to dig into new dreams.
Spokane1
Hi Spokane1
We have worked with a lot less!!!!!!! Up and attum.
Ben K4ZEP
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For those of you wanting to focus on the H-Bridge here is a quick close up of the gate driver circuits.
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Nah, You, RF generator, solid state. Hertz, RF generator spark gap. You, near field, Hertz, near field. It's just a nice well engineered modern day demonstration,
using all the solid state goodies of Hertz device with application of later near field theory and resonance. This is not new!
Besides not working under water(tested by dunking both units as shown in salt water, no orientation of receiver, output smoke, hydrogen and oxygen) I bet it works in space,
glows when held in your hand and will not electrocute you. PLUS it could charge your cell phone and toothbrush.
TK, your better than this, quit mucking with the less informed. Sorry gang, I'm way off topic and I apologize.
After the last few days of reading post, I need a bit of levity! Back to Gunderson.
Ben K4ZEP
Yes, it could charge cellphones and toothbrushes, what's Hertzian about that? Did I miss his YT demonstration of charging a toothbrush using a spark gap transmitter? Link, please.
Yes, the receiver works under water (demonstrated in YT video). Yes, if I bothered to waterproof certain components on the power input side the transmitter would work under salt water. Yes, if salt water is used it can electrolyze it and produce flammable gas (demonstrated in YT video.) Yes, it is orientation-sensitive (another clue to its non-Hertzian character). Yes, it still works, glows when held in my hand, or even when put around my head (demonstrated in still photos and YT video). No, it will not electrocute you unless you use it to charge up a capacitor to high voltage (demonstrated in YT video). Yes, although I have not tested it "in space" it works in vacuum on Earth. It operates at RF frequencies but works by electromagnetic inductive coupling, like a transformer system in the near field, not like a radio system in the far field.
No, it's not new, and no, it's not Hertzian. The solid state system does not emulate a spark gap, it creates a balanced pure sine wave with very little harmonic content (demonstrated in YT videos).
So, whatever, dude, laugh all you like, I'm glad I amuse you. After all, I do all of this for my own amusement. Back to Gunderson.
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For those of you wanting to focus on the H-Bridge here is a quick close up of the gate driver circuits.
That image doesn't really help very much. I certainly can't tell what's going on there except that there are a lot of ferrite beads in use. Good luck "reverse engineering" from that picture!
For comparison purposes, here's an H-bridge system from my own work. This uses a TL494 for the basic clock signal, which is then used to drive a BJT H-bridge current amplifier, which in turn drives two trifilar toroidal gate drive transformers, which drive the gates of the main high-power mosfet H-bridge. The main H-bridge can be used in either full-bridge or half-bridge mode, selected by the small toggle switch at lower right.
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Evening Spokane1,
Looks to me like a 7805 regulator boot straped with another transistor for further current capability, hence heatsink. See:https://www.google.com/search?q=7805+regulator+with+bootstrap+higher+current+transistor&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV-v_muI_OAhUFJx4KHZIlApEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=656
and select images and a whole possie of schematics there. It could be a voltage regulator or a constant current source, probably a voltage regulator.
Choose the circuit that matches what you got. Is it possible the +12VDC feed for it is coming from the output board?
Ben
K4ZEP
It sort of makes sense to me. If the non-heatsinked thing is a 7805, its output is not connected to the heatsinked-thing, so I doubt if it is a constant-current source or current booster. The heatsinked thing might be another VR to step down a higher voltage for the input to the 7805, if the rail that I have marked "12V" is in fact a higher voltage. My annotations on the photo indicate my guesses as to what I've been able to figure out.
Could the heatsinked thing be the regulator and the non-heatsinked thing be the current-boosting transistor? But even that doesn't really make sense because only the pin3 of the non-heatsinked thing is connected to the output rail. One would expect both the regulator output and the PNP transistor collector to be connected to the output.
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Oh, I forgot to annotate the signal path. The BNC on the right looks like a signal input for the 74ac14 hex inverter. It looks like the signal is going through 2 gates on one side and 3 gates on the other side, so the two brown wires coming from the 74ac14 are carrying cleaned up and squared-off in-phase and out-of-phase versions of the input signal. Where they go? I dunno, maybe to the H-bridge gate drivers. The other BNC at the top.... I dunno.
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That image doesn't really help very much. I certainly can't tell what's going on there except that there are a lot of ferrite beads in use. Good luck "reverse engineering" from that picture!
For comparison purposes, here's an H-bridge system from my own work. This uses a TL494 for the basic clock signal, which is then used to drive a BJT H-bridge current amplifier, which in turn drives two trifilar toroidal gate drive transformers, which drive the gates of the main high-power mosfet H-bridge. The main H-bridge can be used in either full-bridge or half-bridge mode, selected by the small toggle switch at lower right.
Hi TK,
After all the "Hurrumph Hurumph I gave you on the other device, this looks like some pretty good work there. Excellent. I apologize for getting a little bit flippant at time. Your one of the good ones out there!
Ben K4ZEP
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Oh, I forgot to annotate the signal path. The BNC on the right looks like a signal input for the 74ac14 hex inverter. It looks like the signal is going through 2 gates on one side and 3 gates on the other side, so the two brown wires coming from the 74ac14 are carrying cleaned up and squared-off in-phase and out-of-phase versions of the input signal. Where they go? I dunno, maybe to the H-bridge gate drivers. The other BNC at the top.... I dunno.
Dear TK,
Good work on annotating that photo. It takes some time to put those labels in there and re-post it. It looks like our conclusions are pretty much the same. We don't know what he has going on there. Fortunately were are pretty sure what the purpose of these components are and we can move ahead with our own design for this sub-system.
You are correct on the unknown voltages. I used +12 and +5 as reference points. The actual voltages are probably higher since most all of the IC's are CMOS.
You are also correct on the presence of off-board connections. This close up photo was taken after the convention when Graham was doing further experiments. I suppose he had a variable pulse generator and a frequency meter hooked to the board. Rieyuki has a nice photo of the logic board configured for demonstration mode. I shall draft up both versions. (In progress)
Thank you for your technical contribution.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
Do you happen to have any idea as to what the function is of this sub-circuit is in the bottom half of the attached schematic? My first WAG is that it is some kind of fixed voltage reference network, if so that is a lot of components that could be replaced by a single voltage reference chip.
Thanks in advance.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
Do you happen to have any idea as to what the function is of this sub-circuit is in the bottom half of the attached schematic? My first WAG is that it is some kind of fixed voltage reference network, if so that is a lot of components that could be replaced by a single voltage reference chip.
Thanks in advance.
Spokane1
The whole circuit doesn't make sense to me. Did you sketch that from the photo of the breadboard? I admire your perseverance and determination!
But I've certainly never seen a dual comparator used like that. Checking the pinout of the ts372 and the schematic, I notice that the inverting input of C1 comparator is connected directly to the noninverting input of the C2 comparator and to nothing else (Pins 2 and 5). And the resistor-diode string leading to the Pin 3 noninverting input of C1 is completely bypassed by a length of wire (the WT-OR wire on the right side). Not only that but the diode in the string is reverse-biased, which makes no sense, so no wonder it's bypassed. So let's say that there is a small voltage coming from the bottom part of the circuit. This voltage is then present at the Pin 3 noninverting input of C1. Since there is nothing to compare it to (no voltage at Pin 2) the C1 output at Pin 1 goes high and stays there. Meanwhile some small fraction of the voltage from the bottom part of the circuit goes through the diode-resistor string on the left and is presented to the Pin 6 inverting input of C2. Again, there is nothing to compare this voltage to (no voltage at Pin 5 which is only connected to Pin 2). So the output of C2 goes low and stays there.
If the voltage labelled Vcc supplied to the bottom part of the circuit is a constant DC voltage, then that part of the circuit can only supply a fraction of half the Vcc voltage to the comparator inputs, and this will also be constant, I think. Why all the components there.... I have no idea. You are right, if it's supposed to be some kind of regulated voltage reference it would be far easier and simpler to use a TL431 circuit there.
This is just a first pass, I could be completely wrong. I may try to breadboard the circuit later on to see what actually happens. I don't have a TS372 on hand so I'll have to try it with a different dual comparator or op-amp though. It is possible to configure comparators as oscillators but I don't think that's happening here, and that connection between pins 5 and 2 has got me very puzzled. Comparators are supposed to _compare voltages_ coming in to their inverting and non-inverting inputs. If one or the other input has no voltage supplied to it -- what's the point? Generally one input is used to read a set reference voltage and the other input is the "test" or varying voltage that you want to compare to the reference. In this case the "reference" voltage for both comparators is floating, undefined, since pins 2 and 5 are simply connected together and to nothing else. Or maybe the "reference" voltages are coming from the bottom circuit, in which case they are being compared to nothing--the floating pins 2 and 5. Maybe it would oscillate randomly under those conditions. Makes no sense to me.
The connection between 2 and 5 is a common way of setting up a "window comparator" circuit but it is always connected to a reference voltage, not just to each other.
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I've been playing with this a little and it looks like I can get a similar wave form with just using 36vdc chopped by a mosfet switch around 21.7kHz with a 33% duty cycle to a primary coil which has a 0.002uf capacitor connected in parallel tuned to resonance (21.7kHz).
Yellow is a x100 Voltage probe across primary coil, Blue is a Tektronic P6021 current probe on negative of primary coil, Red is the product (math) of V x I and Purple is the DC output of the secondary (after FWBR to a 27,000uf cap with 20 Ohm load).
Luc
Hi Ben,
nice to see you here
the coil was around 10mH with a ferrite core. Use your signal generator (at 33% duty cycle) to turn on and off the mosfet's current to the coil which has a .002uf to .005uf cap connected in parallel across it. Tune the frequency till you get (single Wave Ring) Resonance.
Kind regards
Luc
Sorry Ben and any others that have been trying to replicate the sine wave (posts above) with the information I provided.
Looks like the effect only happens with a bi-directional switch which I was using at the time and did not realize it was that configuration allowing it to happen.
Today, I was trying to make it work with a single mosfet and got nothing close. Then connected the bi directional switch and it works. So it looks like you need 2 mosfet's triggered at the same time with one flipped so the current can go in either direction through your switch.
Sorry I missed that.
Luc
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Is it possible that the .01 cap on Pin 6 actually connects over to Pin 5 instead of to Ground?
Still makes no sense though.
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Is it possible that the .01 cap on Pin 6 actually connects over to Pin 5 instead of to Ground?
Still makes no sense though.
Dear TK
That was certainly quick work, Graham said that only 25% of the components on that board were actually being used. There is a good chance that that IC was not being used during the demo or at the shop (since the connections haven't changed).
IF you are interested in digging deeper into this logic circuit send me an email to mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I shall send you the raw photos I took at Graham's shop. They are too big to post at full resolution.
I'm just about finished with the overall wiring schematic for the board. Next is to do the Logic layout so we can establish how the various timing signals were derived.
Thanks again for your time and expertise.
Spokane1
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Sorry Ben and any others that have been trying to replicate the sine wave (posts above) with the information I provided.
Looks like the effect only happens with a bi-directional switch which I was using at the time and did not realize it was that configuration allowing it to happen.
Today, I was trying to make it work with a single mosfet and got nothing close. Then connected the bi directional switch and it works. So it looks like you need 2 mosfet's triggered at the same time with one flipped so the current can go in either direction through your switch.
Sorry I missed that.
Dear luc,
No Problem with the oversight, is happens all the time, even at VW.
Would the requirement of a bi-directional switch in your circuit imply that the H-Bridge configuration will be a requirement in the Gunderson Circuit?
Spokane1
Luc
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OK.... er.... hmmm. I breadboarded the circuit, sort of, and got some pretty strange results. It's a weird sort of window-oscillator, kind of unstable, but I finally got some consistent results out of it.
First, I had to use a TL082 op-amp as the comparator. This is another high-input-impedance dual opamp with the same pinout as the one Gunderson used. I didn't have any 0.01 uF caps to spare so I used 0.1 uF caps instead. This may affect only the frequency of oscillation or it may have other effects different from the original. When I can scrounge some 0.01 uf caps I'll re-test. And for the bottom part of the circuit I simply subbed a variable voltage source (a pot across the supply rails with the wiper to the bottom of the 1k resistor in the center of the schematic.) I supplied the circuit with a little over 5 VDC.
The scopeshots below show the results as I varied the voltage input from the pot. The Yellow trace is the output of Comparator 1 (Pin 1), the Blue trace is the output of C2 (Pin 7), and the Purple trace is the applied voltage from the pot to the bottom of the 1k resistor.
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Sorry Ben and any others that have been trying to replicate the sine wave (posts above) with the information I provided.
Looks like the effect only happens with a bi-directional switch which I was using at the time and did not realize it was that configuration allowing it to happen.
Today, I was trying to make it work with a single mosfet and got nothing close. Then connected the bi directional switch and it works. So it looks like you need 2 mosfet's triggered at the same time with one flipped so the current can go in either direction through your switch.
Sorry I missed that.
Luc
Hi Luc,
This is the best I can get with a single ended, actually just driving a circuit off a pulse generator. The waveform is not symetrical due to that fact but it does work. I think your
assessment is correct!!!
Ben
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Er.... nice work, but see what happens when you post a huge horizontal picture?
Please shrink it to 800 pixels wide and reupload it to replace the overly wide one, or simply use the scope's screen capture utility (stick a USB stick in the hole, press the green "print" button under the Help button.)
Not only will the screenshot look a lot better but it will be _much_ smaller in total file size, and it won't screw up the forum page from being so wide.
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Yes Ben, we have to down size pictures here before we post them or else the topic page size gets to be a problem.
Just open the pic in Windows Paint and click on re-size and select pixels and make them 800 to 1000 max wide and save.
Attached is a 1000 pixel re-size
Are you going to try the dual (bi-directional) mosfet's?
Thanks for sharing
Luc
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Dear Luc,No Problem with the oversight, is happens all the time, even at VW.
Would the requirement of a bi-directional switch in your circuit imply that the H-Bridge configuration will be a requirement in the Gunderson Circuit?
Spokane1
Seeing my oversite now, my best guess is this would better support the use of an H-Bridge in Graham's device.
Luc
BTW, you must of deleted " quote " at the bottom of my post and why your message is in the quote body.
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OK.... er.... hmmm. I breadboarded the circuit, sort of, and got some pretty strange results. It's a weird sort of window-oscillator, kind of unstable, but I finally got some consistent results out of it.
Dear TK,
I might have missed a component (or connection) in my take off so it is amazing that you got that circuit to run at all on the first go around.
An oscillator makes good sense since it connects to the H-Bridge ring timer just above it. I was wondering if I was going to find out where the master clock was hiding.
Good work. I know that these distractions are taking time from your main project.
Spokane1
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Well, I didn't exactly get it to run "the first go round". And I'm not sure still whether I'm seeing the actual quasi-stable performance of the circuit or just some weird breadboard artifact.
But my "main project" at the moment is just trying to get some sleep. And I haven't been sleeping very well lately anyhow, so doing this stuff isn't really distracting. Much.
It's a weird way of implementing an oscillator though.
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Seeing my oversite now, my best guess is this would better support the use of an H-Bridge in Graham's device.
Luc
BTW, you must of deleted " quote " at the bottom of my post and why your message is in the quote body.
All,
Sorry about the oversize picture, forgot about downsizing on my MAC.
Ben K4ZEP
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All,
Sorry about the oversize picture, forgot about downsizing on my MAC.
Ben K4ZEP
You can still edit your post. In the upper right corner (of that post) click modify and uncheck the first picture and upload the re-sized one and click save.
It will help all who come to read this page.
Thanks for your help
Luc
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You can still edit your post. In the upper right corner (of that post) click modify and uncheck the first picture and upload the re-sized one and click save.
It will help all who come to read this page.
Thanks for your help
Luc
Hi Luc,
Fixed that huge picture. Should make everyone's life easier.
I eventually will make that driver using a "H" bridge. Or as I like to
simplify things, do it another way.
Everything circuit wise in the Gunderson device suggest that it was simply designed to
vary a magnetic field back and forth in a ferromagnetic magnetically biased core and in magnets with
a transformer and at a certain point in time, at a particular point in the varying field,
you hammer that field with a very high voltage relative high speed pulse. From the time you pulse it, till the start
of the next repeating cycle, power occurs and is extracted from this core/field, etc.
That Gunderson chose to use a H bridge and a complex rectification system, etc. would appear
to be just one way of doing it. The REAL question is......What are the characteristics of the power output pulse?
Everything else is just circuitry to get the core/field to release this energy with the least amount of work to do it.
Circuitry is circuitry, When you Google "H Bridge drivers in Tesla Coils" you get hundreds of variations on a theme.
We are running around in circles trying to figure out exactly how his circuits work, but we need to more know
how is the power generated by his waveforms. Look at the wave, not the boat!
Respectfully,
Ben K4ZEP
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I've been going over some pix I've received of the breadboard circuit. I have been able to positively identify all the chips except for the TO-220 devices at top right (one heatsinked, one bare) which are presumed to be voltage regulators, perhaps LM7805 or similar.
The DIP packages are typical CMOS chips that should be readily available from the usual suppliers.
TS556 Dual Timer
74HC123AN Dual monostable multivibrator
74AC74P Dual D-type Flip-Flop
74AC14PC Hex Schmitt Trigger Inverter
TS372 Dual Comparator
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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.
And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)
Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!
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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.
And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)
Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!
Thats why I was so impressed with Luc's waveform as soon as he showed it!!!
I agree! Luc needs to rectify that output during the resting period. It does appear
that GG's short pulse enhances the output period.
Ben
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Dear Builders and Measurement Specialists,
Here is my first pass at wiring diagrams for the Graham Gunderson Logic controller. There are two versions. One is the way things appeared to be wired during the presentation. The other is the way the system was connected a week after the convention in Graham's shop. In that version he has disabled some of the chips and appears to have attached one or two pulse generators to possibly sweep input signals.
There is a fair amount of detail in these drawings. I have included pdf versions so you can study the small text. The resistors came in pretty good, but I couldn't see what the values were for the capacitors or the trim pots.
The next step is to develop a logic diagram so that we can figure out what is happening.
Spokane1
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@Spokane1:
That's nice work! I know how tedious that kind of thing is, especially when working from photographs that may not be too clear or from good angles.
But.... It seems from your schematics that the entire bit of circuitry that includes the components associated with U4, U2 and U1 is a Red Herring that does not connect to the rest of the circuit at all, other than being powered by the Vcc supply. This is the case in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics. I'm sure you noticed this when you were drawing them up. This simplifies the problem greatly.
So here's what I think it's doing, based on your schematics. We appear to have the 556 timer (U3) providing a clock signal that goes unchanged to both the H-Bridge and the Synchronous Diode. And we also have in the Presentation circuit, two monostable multivibrators U5 and U7. U7 appears to be an oscillator that provides pulses to the U8 hex inverter, which go through two of U8's gates then fed to the H-bridge. But this same signal through only one gate of the U8 is then fed back to the other monostable multivibrator U5 to trigger it, I believe, and it provides a pulse that goes to the Synchronous Diode. The U8 hex inverter also passes the input signal from U7 through three gates which then goes to the H-bridge. So the hex inverter's two outputs to the H-bridge are cleaned up, squared-off and oppositely phased versions of the pulse signal from U7. The U6 is not used in the Presentation circuit. There doesn't appear to be anything that synchronizes the U3 556 clock with the U7-U5 clock system. The U3 clock is fixed frequency and pulse width but the U7 and U5 multivibrators have trimpots for adjustments of either pulse width or frequency or both.
In the Experimental version, the U7 oscillator isn't used and an external FG (or two) is presumed to provide the clock signal for the U8 hex inverter and also the feedback signal for triggering the U5 monostable multivibrator.
Did you notice that my "mockup" of the U4 circuit (the TS372 dual comparator) oscillates, when it oscillates, at exactly 60 Hz? This is undoubtedly due to those essentially floating reference pins 2 and 5, making the thing so sensitive and unstable that it picks up EMI from the house wiring, power supplies, etc. and oscillates in step with it, when the voltage supplied to the 1k resistor is just right. That is, if I built it right to begin with and if my TL082 is behaving as the TS372 would. Of course this issue is moot because this section of the circuitry isn't actually connected to anything in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics.
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@Spokane1:
That's nice work! I know how tedious that kind of thing is, especially when working from photographs that may not be too clear or from good angles.
But.... It seems from your schematics that the entire bit of circuitry that includes the components associated with U4, U2 and U1 is a Red Herring that does not connect to the rest of the circuit at all, other than being powered by the Vcc supply. This is the case in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics. I'm sure you noticed this when you were drawing them up. This simplifies the problem greatly.
Dear TK,
Graham said that only 25% of that circuit was being used. With 8 IC's that means only about 2 of them have any useful function, which seems consistent with your analysis.
Now, I shall take your observations and compose a logic diagram so that I can understand what is going on. The purpose of this whole exercise is to see how the backend timing pulse is generated. I suspect that since it is so short that the start and end times relative to the input wave form are critical. After this is done others may prefer the use of a microprocessor, but if it only takes two or three chips then why bother.
You must get up early in the morning to do this kind of review so quickly.
Thanks for the positive comments. Doing this kind of work is a walk in the park (since I took some of the photos with my sons IPhone) compared to figuring out the E.V. Gray technology from 30 year old 110 format photos.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
Here is a simplified drawing after considering your comments. This part of the system shouldn't break any bodies bank.
Spokane1
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OK, I've breadboarded the 556 clock portion (U3) of the circuit. I posted this on OUR but I suppose I should put it here too.
The only flavor of 556 that I had in my box is a TI brand NE556N, and with Vcc = 5 V, and using the timing components listed on Spokane1's schematic, it oscillates at about 292 kHz. Going up to Vcc = 9V it goes up to about 313 kHz.
This doesn't seem to correspond to any of the frequencies in the Gunderson scopeshot though.
Changing the capacitor on Pin 8 to 10 nF instead of 1 nF brings the frequency down to about 72 kHz, and shortens the duty cycle to about 57 percent, which makes a bit more sense. Maybe.
(Morning? Is it really morning already? My how time flies when I don't sleep.)
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Since the U3 clock is entirely independent of the clock pulses generated by the U5-U7 system it's hard for me to understand how they could maintain a precise relationship. Perhaps the timing drift between these two independent pulse generating systems is why Gunderson's results are not consistent over time or from trial to trial.
A microprocessor control system would certainly make synchronization among all the necessary pulse timings more precise.
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Since the U3 clock is entirely independent of the clock pulses generated by the U5-U7 system it's hard for me to understand how they could maintain a precise relationship. Perhaps the timing drift between these two independent pulse generating systems is why Gunderson's results are not consistent over time or from trial to trial.
A microprocessor control system would certainly make synchronization among all the necessary pulse timings more precise.
Dear TK,
I agree with you. I probably missed a connection or small jumper wire some where.
Spokane1
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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.
And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)
Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!
Umm, isn't Gotoluc's output 4.07 volts across a 20 Ohm resister ?
Doesn't that work out to about 0.8 Watt output ?
Input says 1.97 VA but what is the input in Watts ?
I'm assuming he has no synchronous rectification. Is he just using a FWBR.
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The 74HC123s do not oscillate on their own. Apparently there must be an input from an external clock for the system to work. I supplied a clock signal from one of my function generators to Pin 10 of U7. I could not get it to work with a signal from the 556 circuit that I tested earlier. The result is shown in the screenshot below.
The CH1 Yellow trace is the Pin 13 output of U5 which goes to the Synchronous Diode. The CH2 Light Blue and CH3 Purple (Cyan and Magenta?) traces are the complimentary outputs of the 7414 U8 which go to the H-bridge. The CH4 Dark Blue trace is the input from my FG to Pin 10 of U7.
The two pots on U5 control the Yellow trace pulse width and pulse delay. One of the pots on U7 controls the pulse width of the two complimentary outputs of U8 to the H-bridge. I couldn't see any effect of the other pot on U7 but that may be due to where I'm injecting the clock signal.
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The 74HC123s do not oscillate on their own. Apparently there must be an input from an external clock for the system to work. I supplied a clock signal from one of my function generators to Pin 10 of U7. I could not get it to work with a signal from the 556 circuit that I tested earlier. The result is shown in the screenshot below.
The CH1 Yellow trace is the Pin 13 output of U5 which goes to the Synchronous Diode. The CH2 Light Blue and CH3 Purple (Cyan and Magenta?) traces are the complimentary outputs of the 7414 U8 which go to the H-bridge. The CH4 Dark Blue trace is the input from my FG to Pin 10 of U7.
The two pots on U5 control the Yellow trace pulse width and pulse delay. One of the pots on U7 controls the pulse width of the two complimentary outputs of U8 to the H-bridge. I couldn't see any effect of the other pot on U7 but that may be due to where I'm injecting the clock signal.
Morning TK,
Try this:
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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.
And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)
Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!
Good morning TK and all
I have a question for anyone that knows. Has it been confirmed if Graham is doing the power measurements before the H-bridge or is it done after it?
Thanks
Luc
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Morning TK,
Try this:
Hey, thanks, that actually works! I've marked the pinout on your photo, and wired up U7 to match. Now the circuit does not need an outside clock signal, and the previously non-functional pot now controls the frequency. Now we just need to play around with the timing capacitor and resistor values to get outputs that are in the right frequency and duty cycle range. (I doubled the value of the frequency timing capacitor already but need to slow it down even more I think.)
In the scopeshot below the Dark Blue trace is now the Pin 12 output of the oscillator U7.
Thanks for looking that up for me! I had started looking through example circuits for the 74123 but stopped for breakfast and a beer before I got that far.
(But does it correspond to what is shown in the photos of Gunderson's board?)
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Good morning TK and all
I have a question for anyone that knows. Has it been confirmed if Graham is doing the power measurements before the H-bridge or is it done after it?
Thanks
Luc
I think he is measuring "input power" as input to the transformer, that is, between the H-bridge output and the input to the transformer.
There has been some discussion on this matter. It is my opinion that the input power should be measured as input to the power supply to the H-bridge and should also include the inputs to the other necessary power supplies, but obviously not everyone agrees with me.
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Dear All,
Here is our logic diagram to date including today's and yesterday's review and work by TK.
Spokane1
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Hey, thanks, that actually works! I've marked the pinout on your photo, and wired up U7 to match. Now the circuit does not need an outside clock signal, and the previously non-functional pot now controls the frequency. Now we just need to play around with the timing capacitor and resistor values to get outputs that are in the right frequency and duty cycle range. (I doubled the value of the frequency timing capacitor already but need to slow it down even more I think.)
In the scopeshot below the Dark Blue trace is now the Pin 12 output of the oscillator U7.
Thanks for looking that up for me! I had started looking through example circuits for the 74123 but stopped for breakfast and a beer before I got that far.
(But does it correspond to what is shown in the photos of Gunderson's board?)
Hi TK
Glad to be of help, used those chips many years ago in some ultrasonic tracking circuits and remembered it would self Osc. Looked it up in some application notes. Your doing some GREAT work there!
I too get totally engrossed in circuits sometimes and can't sleep and end up plumb squirreley! Have to pace myself or my heart kicks into AFIB and it slows me down for
a day or two!
I have found out a bit more about the Blue output pulse that stays high during the rest time.......I'll post waveform and discuss it a bit in another post.
Luc steered me to this site: http://teslaenergysolutionsllc.com/product-category/solid-state-relays/ It has a couple SSRelays that look very much
like or similar to what GG uses. For your consideration.
Ben
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I think he is measuring "input power" as input to the transformer, that is, between the H-bridge output and the input to the transformer.
There has been some discussion on this matter. It is my opinion that the input power should be measured as input to the power supply to the H-bridge and should also include the inputs to the other necessary power supplies, but obviously not everyone agrees with me.
I agree with you TK. If he wished to show that his transformer itself was "OU", the way he did it was correct. IF he wished to show that the total device was OU, you needed to measure the power in at the source (wall plug) and the power out at the load. If load power > Source power, OU possibly if instrumentation is correct. As he had approximately 12VDC out, battery and or large Cap into a 12/110V converter back to input should loop it. If it didn't, instrumentation would be imperfect!
Ben K4ZEP
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If he wished to show that his transformer itself was "OU", the way he did it was correct.
It is pretty clear that is what he was trying to do.
Therefore input power is measured after the H-Bridge.
Measuring before the H-Bridge is like saying one needs to measure the AC power feeding their bench DC power supply when it is supplying DC power to a DUT. Which of course makes no sense.
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No. The peculiar characteristics of the H-bridge and the Synchronous Rectifier are critical components of the "OU" system and the power supplied _to_ these components is part of the input to the device. The device would not work without these subsystems with their particular details, and their tuning is critical to the operation.
The timing breadboard, as we now know, is providing an ordinary set of signals with some tuning variability to the rest of the circuit, and this set of signals could be coming from many other sources, there is nothing particularly special about them. Furthermore, they are not of a nature as to be able to supply significant power to the output, since they are low-power, high-impedance signals that are going to mosfet drivers in the functional parts of the circuit. So I can accept that the power input to the breadboard timing circuit doesn't need to be included as part of the "input".
The input to a DC power supply is not necessarily part of the "input" because it could be substituted by a battery pack, a capacitor bank w/ impedance matching, or a different DC power supply. The peculiar characteristics of the DC power supply don't matter. However the _output_ of such a supply, which is powering the H-bridge and the Synchronous Diode, is necessary for the device to function and apparently _can_ provide power which appears on the final overall output -- since there is clearly power in the final output.
If one takes the position that only input _real_ power to the transformer itself need be counted as "input" then one is forced, it seems to me, to also conclude that my microQEG, to mention only one device of mine, is also OU in the same way that Gunderson's transformer is. Maybe that's why I got asked if I wanted to present the device at the GlobalBem conference.
In the comments on my video "Texas Has Resonance" :
JohnEnergy2012 (https://www.youtube.com/user/JohnEnergy2012) 4 months ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCdrAE_IZ74&lc=z12jifya3wz0gd50x23php3wzpixs12td)
Would you like to show this during our conference? Contact me: john@globalbem.com facebook.com/Globalbem (http://facebook.com/Globalbem)
I don't think .99 believes that my microQEG is overunity. Neither do I, for that matter, since I count as _input_ the DC power that is required to operate its peculiar oscillator, without which the device would not function, and _output_ the real power produced in the air-core transformer secondary which drives a bulb, motor or HV capacitor/spark gap.
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Has anyone read this book ?
http://grahamgunderson.com/ou/ (http://grahamgunderson.com/ou/)
Maybe it contains a basic philosophy how to proceed, and perhaps the basic circuit, as it seems to claim in the advert.
"A REAL OVERUNITY TRANSFORMER DEMONSTRATED TO AN AUDIENCE AND DETAILS ON HOW TO REPLICATE "
Note: "Details on how to replicate"
Comes with a 100% money back guarantee if not satisfied. How can you lose.
It is one of a collection of books being sold at: http://johnbedini.net/
I realize current printing is from the conference last year, but will probably be revised soon to include the most recent conference.
-
And how many "successful replications" have been performed according to information in that book? How many people are running their homes from it, or have applied for and received any of the many OU prizes that are out there? After all, the book is old news.
-
Meanwhile, thanks to K4zep for the oscillator details, here's the revised/corrected wiring for U7, the 74HC123 monostable multivibrator configured as the master oscillator for the Gunderson breadboard "Simplified Presentation Logic Wiring" diagram that Spokane1 drew out for us.
When I first built it according to Spokane1's diagram I had to feed it with an external clock signal to get the system to make pulses, and one of the pots on U7 didn't have any effect. Using this revised wiring it is now self-contained, with the frequency and duty cycle pots both working and the ranges indicated on the drawing. I've put in the actual values of the timing components I wound up using to get the ranges shown.
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And how many "successful replications" have been performed according to information in that book? How many people are running their homes from it, or have applied for and received any of the many OU prizes that are out there? After all, the book is old news.
I agree with your sentiments, and it makes me wonder about the current interest in the latest G.G.offering, considering past performance and affiliations. My post was not an endorsement, rather, it was posted for "informational purposes". Everyone should draw their own conclusions based on careful reading of the advert style and affiliations.
I might add that you fellows are doing a very good job at back engineering the circuitry. Whether a very accurate timing diagram can be derived from this is YTBD.
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No. The peculiar characteristics of the H-bridge and the Synchronous Rectifier are critical components of the "OU" system and the power supplied _to_ these components is part of the input to the device. The device would not work without these subsystems with their particular details, and their tuning is critical to the operation.
Well, I'm only referring to Input power, not output. So the synchronous diode is of no relevance in that regard.
Does "DC" not qualify as "peculiar" in your world? I would think it does, if indeed GG's H-Bridge output does as well. Or, we could just as easily say there is nothing particularly "special" about either one. My Big Muff Pi pedal won't work without its 9V power supply connected either. Does that make the power supply "special"? I think not.
Ultimately, both supply voltage and current to whatever device we connect to them, and as such, they are simply just power sources. Granted in GG's case the power source's wave form is sync'd to the device, but that is the only difference. It is still just acting as the input power source.
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With a DC power source, I would think the internal resistance would be critical, since it is this resistance that determines the maximum rate of current flow at switch closure, which defines the current ramp--timing.
I also recall not being able to get Bill Alek to show input power to his amplifier that was driving his Split Flux Transformer. I got in Hillary fashion, "What's the difference?" response. For those that never played with this SFT arrangement, using a standard transformer output PA amplifier reveals normal operation, but when used with a low voltage capacitive-coupled car audio amplifier, you see something quite different, right up until you measure the input power to the amplifier.
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Meanwhile, thanks to K4zep for the oscillator details, here's the revised/corrected wiring for U7, the 74HC123 monostable multivibrator configured as the master oscillator for the Gunderson breadboard "Simplified Presentation Logic Wiring" diagram that Spokane1 drew out for us.
When I first built it according to Spokane1's diagram I had to feed it with an external clock signal to get the system to make pulses, and one of the pots on U7 didn't have any effect. Using this revised wiring it is now self-contained, with the frequency and duty cycle pots both working and the ranges indicated on the drawing. I've put in the actual values of the timing components I wound up using to get the ranges shown.
Thanks TK for the total schematic!
Ben K4ZEP
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Has anyone read this book ?
http://grahamgunderson.com/ou/ (http://grahamgunderson.com/ou/)
Maybe it contains a basic philosophy how to proceed, and perhaps the basic circuit, as it seems to claim in the advert.
Note: "Details on how to replicate"
Comes with a 100% money back guarantee if not satisfied. How can you lose.
It is one of a collection of books being sold at: http://johnbedini.net/ (http://johnbedini.net/)
I realize current printing is from the conference last year, but will probably be revised soon to include the most recent conference.
Is this his demo from last year, or the latest?????
Ben K4ZEP
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K4zep
That is last years conference review from the Host of said conference and supporting "for sale" marketing literature.
I believe The attached Graham Gunderson address is part of the whole marketing "package" for that Group and their
agreement with speakers.
to summarize ,I don't believe the Device being investigated here or its schematic share much in common with the 2015
conference claim , some have said that proper validation of the 2015 conference claim is in question and within the margin of error for such claims.
However
the device and claim being investigated in this thread is well outside that margin of error and needs the due diligence being proposed here so as to rule out measurement error or "other" and help qualify this very bold claim.
respectfully
Chet K
PS
K4zep
** sorry I was still chiseling on the keyboard [adding more comment]as you posted below
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K4zep
That is last years conference review from the Host of said conference and supporting "for sale" marketing literature.
I believe The attached Graham Gunderson address is part of the whole marketing "package" for that Group and their
agreement with speakers.
respectfully
Chet K
Thanks Chet,
Waiting on the new DVD!
Ben K4ZEP
-
Is this his demo from last year, or the latest? ??? ?
Ben K4ZEP
As Chet said it is last years conference entry on G.G.'s "OU Transformer" and book with same title. The link directly points to Graham's website which has no information about the transformer except a link to the book sale despite it also having the heading "Advanced Magnetic Research & Development". I remember tooling around this website last year after the first conference and disclosure, and the content there is the same.
grahamgunderson.com
and
grahamgunderson.com/ou
-
K4zep
That is last years conference review from the Host of said conference and supporting "for sale" marketing literature.
I believe The attached Graham Gunderson address is part of the whole marketing "package" for that Group and their
agreement with speakers.
to summarize ,I don't believe the Device being investigated here or its schematic share much in common with the 2015
conference claim , some have said that proper validation of the 2015 conference claim is in question and within the margin of error for such claims.
However
the device and claim being investigated in this thread is well outside that margin of error and needs the due diligence being proposed here so as to rule out measurement error or "other" and help qualify this very bold claim.
respectfully
Chet K
PS
K4zep
** sorry I was still chiseling on the keyboard [adding more comment]as you posted below
Agree and that's what we are slowly doing.
Ben K4ZEP
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It is pretty clear that is what he was trying to do.
Therefore input power is measured after the H-Bridge.
Measuring before the H-Bridge is like saying one needs to measure the AC power feeding their bench DC power supply when it is supplying DC power to a DUT. Which of course makes no sense.
Here is my take on it FWIW
If we are only looking at the efficiency of the transformer it self,then we only need to calculate the power being delivered to the transformer,and the power delivered to the load by the transformer.
If we are to decide on whether or not the transformer is OU,and can be looped to be a self runner,and produce excess energy to also run a load,then we would have to include all the components to do so,as they are all required in order to produce the OU effect of the transformer it self.
There is no point in trying to measure the top speed of a car,when it has no wheels.
Brad
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Agreed,
If GG wants to loop his transformer in its present configuration, it will have to have enough excess power to not only supply a load, but the H-Bridge, logic, and synchronous diode circuits as well.
Now, is TK going to blow a gate? ???
-
to summarize ,I don't believe the Device being investigated here or its schematic share much in common with the 2015
conference claim , some have said that proper validation of the 2015 conference claim is in question and within the margin of error for such claims.
respectfully
Chet K
Dear All,
At the conference Graham specifically told me that this technology is vastly different than the approach employed for last year's (2015) presentation. When looking at the active element (transformer) and the support subassemblies I would have to agree.
I don't believe there is much to be gained by going back and reviewing last years work. However, you could review the DVD and get a feel for his measurement mythology.
Spokane1
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Agreed,
If GG wants to loop his transformer in its present configuration, it will have to have enough excess power to not only supply a load, but the H-Bridge, logic, and synchronous diode circuits as well.
Now, is TK going to blow a gate? ???
Well, with an infinite COP (0.000 Watts input, 10 Watts output) or even just 50 to 1, that should be easy to do, don't you think? :P
Of course if that "0.000 Watts input" reading was obtained by simply disconnecting the Current monitor side of the input C-H, it may not be so easy.
(It appears to me that the instrument was set to "Auto Range" inputs. So it should not be a surprise that it was constantly trying to change ranges if the "input" signal was fluctuating or spiky. The cure for this is not to disconnect the instrument, but rather to select a higher, fixed range setting on the input side.)
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Here is my take on it FWIW
If we are only looking at the efficiency of the transformer it self,then we only need to calculate the power being delivered to the transformer,and the power delivered to the load by the transformer.
If we are to decide on whether or not the transformer is OU,and can be looped to be a self runner,and produce excess energy to also run a load,then we would have to include all the components to do so,as they are all required in order to produce the OU effect of the transformer it self.
There is no point in trying to measure the top speed of a car,when it has no wheels.
Brad
But.... in Gunderson's demonstration, isn't the "output power" measured at the bulb, rather than at the output of the transformer? The transformer output, as I understand it, is being fed through the synchronous rectifier and into a large capacitor bank before it reaches the bulb.
So how's this: If you want to only include the power at the transformer input as "input"... then let's just only include the power directly at the transformer output as "output". Fair enough? Just disconnect everything downstream of the transformer output itself and measure the output power directly at that point. This will eliminate any possible contributions to the output measurement that may come from the synchronous diode arrangement and its power supply, pre-charged capacitors, etc.
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All,
I'm treating this as simply a R&D adventure. Going to build what I can, knowing what I know
and try to find the "source" of the energy if there is one and the go from there. With my junk box,
my power supplies, etc, investing maybe $150. bucks. I'm sure I'll let some expensive smoke out
of some little innocent parts but that's the way I learn. We have a lot of clues, pictures, advice,
enough to give it a shot!
We can talk till the cows come home exploring the finer points of instrumentation but until we
have a "best guess device" to experiment with, we are "as we say in the south, running around, making a lot of noise and throwing
dust in the air" or really doing nothing.
There are those that "do" and there are those that BS, I'm in the "do" group. We have a lot of "doers" here, it will be interesting.
If I don't find anything, so what? If I don't find anything, can't find that elusive source of power, been there done that before.
Ben K4ZEP
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Hello,
I am studding this kind of setups for quite a while and here one possible explanation how such system could work.
I hope that it will be interesting for someone.
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Hello,
I am studding this kind of setups for quite a while and here one possible explanation how such system could work.
I hope that it will be interesting for someone.
Nice paper and Cyril Smith will be pleased to know his work is referenced in the paper.
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Hello,
I am studding this kind of setups for quite a while and here one possible explanation how such system could work.
I hope that it will be interesting for someone.
I will study this with much interest!!!!!
Ben K4ZEP
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@ Vasik
seems almost a lifetime of investigation ?, and a very simple concept .
have you started a thread here for this work / investigation ?[
@K4ZEP
thanks for jumping into the pool , personally for me...your intuition and life experience do carry a lot of weight and I don't take your decision as kneejerk ,I also know you have a great respect and appreciation for Graham and his work.
I must add ..the "friction" and input that comes with investigating a claim like this will be both beneficial and frustrating at times
...for all involved !
and I do appreciate the Efforts of Men like Poynt , Vortex 1 and others who also hunt and help to hunt this elusive beast ...
Thanks again for your contributions !
I think I hear more splashes...
respectfully
Chet
PS
SIGH
I type at a snails pace and see others have commented...
and I obviously agree ;D
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@ Vasik
seems almost a lifetime of investigation ?, and a very simple concept .
have you started a thread here for this work / investigation ?
Not a lifetime, but more than 10 years now :)
I haven't started thread here. When people learn that energy from such device be in range of milliwats, nobody want investigate it anymore...
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Not a lifetime, but more than 10 years now :)
I haven't started thread here. When people learn that energy from such device be in range of milliwats, nobody want investigate it anymore...
Harold Aspden and John Strachan put together a piezo-capacitor based device that put out respectable power levels from small temperature differences. Not quite the same, but Harold Aspden did some research along the lines you are investigating. Cyril Smith also wrote an interesting paper.
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Dear All,
Here is another implementation (Bare Bones) of a Logic controller for the Gunderson Device. This one uses 100K trim pots and 1nF timing capacitors. It also gives a wide range of control over the timing parameters. I used 74LS123 and a 7414 (obsolete). The newer HC CMOS versions should give even better performance and can run at a higher voltage. This arrangement appears to have no starting problems.
What is missing are the trim pot saver resistors (typically 200 Ohm), more bypass capacitors, the push button switches that Graham used (for testing?) and the extra wiring shields around the ends of the IC's (see Graham's photo to see how this was done). I don't know if any of this extra stuff is needed since the fast transition times are controlled by the Power MOSFET drivers.
It appears to me that all of the timing parameters in this sub-circuit are manually controlled. I thought there would be some logic derived control signals, but apparently not.
Many thanks to TinselKoala and k4zep for the development of this circuit.
Up next. The development of an LTSpice VII simulation to see how those timing pulses control the H-Bridge to generate that discontinuous 2/3's sine wave excitation input.
Spokane1
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But.... in Gunderson's demonstration, isn't the "output power" measured at the bulb, rather than at the output of the transformer? The transformer output, as I understand it, is being fed through the synchronous rectifier and into a large capacitor bank before it reaches the bulb.
So how's this: If you want to only include the power at the transformer input as "input"... then let's just only include the power directly at the transformer output as "output". Fair enough? Just disconnect everything downstream of the transformer output itself and measure the output power directly at that point. This will eliminate any possible contributions to the output measurement that may come from the synchronous diode arrangement and its power supply, pre-charged capacitors, etc.
As far as i know (or can work out),is the synchronous rectifier is self triggered from the output side of the transformer--as per Itsu's schematic at OUR. Not to sure on that one though,as i lost interest
when you discovered the current inputs being bypassed on the Clarke-Hess power analyzer.
We have both built devices that show an !apparent! 0 watt input TK,but on all occasions it is only measurement error,or incorrect measurement point's.
The only way to gain an accurate yes or no to GGs OU transformer,is to build it,achieve the same result's,and then work out where he went wrong with his power measurements.
Brad
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Tinman quote
"" i lost interest
when you discovered the current inputs being bypassed on the Clarke-Hess power analyzer.""
end Quote
Poynt mentioned this disconnect early on in that thread and it is a possibility that there was or is a reason for that "photo" based on what is being said By Graham at the time ...??
[aside from the claims that leaving out current measurement yields OU very quickly there could be a very good reason ??]
the DVD of the presentation will hopefully have an explanation of these connections or lack thereof as the talk unfolds.
we shall see ?
respectfully
Chet K
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I think he is measuring "input power" as input to the transformer, that is, between the H-bridge output and the input to the transformer.
There has been some discussion on this matter. It is my opinion that the input power should be measured as input to the power supply to the H-bridge and should also include the inputs to the other necessary power supplies, but obviously not everyone agrees with me.
I do and I think it is important as well to define the actual input (start point).
If we were to take even a device that is usually powered by grid connection to a place with no grid power we would quickly realise that to run the grid powered device we would need to generate the AC input ourselves which incurs losses.
In my opinion any device should have the input considered to be from a source of stored energy such as a battery. Doing that assures us that we can get the same result from a battery bank charged by solar or wind or whatever.
However if we consider the grid a source of stored energy then the input would be from the wall socket. Much easier to determine input at 60 Hz.
Using grid power is even cheating because it costs money, the input AC is bought with money. The grid is part of the system.
Using a H bridge then the power consumed by the H bridge itself must be considered as the H bridge is part of the system. Measuring the input to the H bridge should be easier than measuring the output from it shouldn't it ?
A transformer and load itself is not a system, it requires switching or an AC input.
..
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I do and I think it is important as well to define the actual input (start point).
If we were to take even a device that is usually powered by grid connection to a place with no grid power we would quickly realise that to run the grid powered device we would need to generate the AC input ourselves which incurs losses.
In my opinion any device should have the input considered to be from a source of stored energy such as a battery. Doing that assures us that we can get the same result from a battery bank charged by solar or wind or whatever.
However if we consider the grid a source of stored energy then the input would be from the wall socket. Much easier to determine input at 60 Hz.
Using grid power is even cheating because it costs money, the input AC is bought with money. The grid is part of the system.
Using a H bridge then the power consumed by the H bridge itself must be considered as the H bridge is part of the system. Measuring the input to the H bridge should be easier than measuring the output from it shouldn't it ?
A transformer and load itself is not a system, it requires switching or an AC input.
..
So how far back do you go?
When we are doing power measurements on the bench,do we go all the way back to the source,and take into account heat losses at the power generation plant?.
When doing power measurements where we are using a DC input from a bench top power supply,we measure from the bench top power supplies DC output-not from the AC input to the power supply. So in other words,we circumvent all the dissipated power within that power supply,and do not take that into account.
If the power delivered from the H bridge go's only into the transformer,then we would only measure the P/in after the H bridge,as this is our bench top power supply.
If !!if!! there is power being delivered to the drive mechanism of the synchronous rectifier that bi passes the transformer,where it may add to the P/out,then this power has to be taken into account as part of the input power.
Only once a full and correct schematic is presented,will you know what has to be measured where.
Brad
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What "bench top power supply" delivers a power signal to its load like this, at 50-75 kHz?
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The "H-bridge" is pretty complicated. I can't find any good photos of the mosfets in the H-bridge but this is, I think, part of the driver circuitry. There is far more going on here than just switching 4 mosfets. Why not just use an appropriate high-power, high frequency H-bridge driver chip like HIP4080 if all you are doing is coordinating the switching of 4 mosfets?
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So how far back do you go?
When we are doing power measurements on the bench,do we go all the way back to the source,and take into account heat losses at the power generation plant?.
When doing power measurements where we are using a DC input from a bench top power supply,we measure from the bench top power supplies DC output-not from the AC input to the power supply. So in other words,we circumvent all the dissipated power within that power supply,and do not take that into account.
If the power delivered from the H bridge go's only into the transformer,then we would only measure the P/in after the H bridge,as this is our bench top power supply.
If !!if!! there is power being delivered to the drive mechanism of the synchronous rectifier that bi passes the transformer,where it may add to the P/out,then this power has to be taken into account as part of the input power.
Only once a full and correct schematic is presented,will you know what has to be measured where.
Brad
Good question, The way I see it with a setup that plugs into the grid we can do a couple of things, we can consider the grid as a source of stored energy which it kinda is.
1, We can use the grid and measure the device input at the wall socket or where the non standard equipment begins such as one socket powers the function generator/whatever changes the input frequency or wave shape and the actual device input. In other words whatever is needed to run the device from the wall socket.
2, Or we can use a DC supply and measure the device input right at the DC supply as with the grid.
In other words everything that is required to run the device from a standard AC wall outlet or a standard DC supply outlet.
When I look at the efficiency of stuff I think of it that way. I don't consider the losses in a DC supply as long as I can recreate it with batteries. eg. if it's a HV DC supply then I consider the losses in the DC supply.
eg. I don't consider the losses in the solar or wind system only the output of the batteries, however if a setup is 50 Hz for
here"Aus" I don't think we need to consider the losses in the DC to AC inverter either as we would most likely have one anyway
even if living off grid. But if the device is using a 60 000 Hz input to the transformer then whatever changes the 50 Hz AC to
60 000 Hz is part of the device as it isn't for anything else and it is necessary.
We have to start somewhere.
Still it is fine and dandy to measure the efficiency of the transformer itself. But what good is that if we cannot just plug it in.
As TK said. Where do you buy a supply with an output like that. One that can power a decent load as well.
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What "bench top power supply" delivers a power signal to its load like this, at 50-75 kHz?
None. And?
Insert head banging into wall emoticon here...
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What "bench top power supply" delivers a power signal to its load like this, at 50-75 kHz?
Why would it matter what type of wave form is delivered by the power supply?-it's still providing power,and so it is a power supply--and we always measure our P/in at the power supply output.
Just put all the components of the Hbridge inside a black box,with only the two output terminals pocking out,and forget about everything inside the black box--just like we do with any other power supply,be it a variable DC power supply,or some fancy wave forms from your signal generator.
1 question regarding your provided wave forms.
How is there current flowing without voltage for such a long time?.
Brad
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None. And?
Exactly. The "H-bridge" in Gunderson's device is not, and cannot be treated as, any kind of "normal" or bench-top power supply (referring here to TinMan's post.) It is an integral part of the device and the claim of "ou" would never even get out of the starting gate without it.
Insert head banging into wall emoticon here...
Exactly.
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Why would it matter what type of wave form is delivered by the power supply?-it's still providing power,and so it is a power supply--and we always measure our P/in at the power supply output.
Just put all the components of the Hbridge inside a black box,with only the two output terminals pocking out,and forget about everything inside the black box--just like we do with any other power supply,be it a variable DC power supply,or some fancy wave forms from your signal generator.
Fine. Let's just substitute some other power supply then. What happens to the claim of "OU" then?
1 question regarding your provided wave forms.
How is there current flowing without voltage for such a long time?.
Brad
Exactly. You tell me. What kind of power supply will do that?
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If the transformer is reacting against the H bridge thingy then in my opinion it, H bridge,
must be included in the test.
John.
-
I agree. If the output impedance of the H-bridge is anything other than very low or very high at any point during the cycle, then it would be considered part of the device. Otherwise, it is simply a powerful function generator supplying juice to GG's transformer, and should be treated as such.
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Exactly. The "H-bridge" in Gunderson's device is not, and cannot be treated as, any kind of "normal" or bench-top power supply (referring here to TinMan's post.)
I never said it was a normal power supply, I said it was a power supply with a specific wave form. Essentially a high voltage, wave-form-specific FG.
It is an integral part of the device and the claim of "ou" would never even get out of the starting gate without it.
Ok, answer this question; Given a device that required a square wave output from a FG to measure Pout>Pin, but measures Pout<Pin when the wave form is changed to sine, is the wave form critical to the device achieving OU, or is it the FG itself?
-
99
Sorry I started this post before you posted
takes a long time for me to draft even a simple post and I Did not mean to interrupt the discussion
here is a valid comment from post #143 by member Spokane1
Snip"
a well regulated power supply would work just as well. If this technology is viable then we might need an extra 25% more input power. That would raise the measured input power from 1.53 watts to 1.91 watts . That would lower the COP from 6.12 to 5.07 and address all your measurement concerns (I think). This assumes that the output power can remain at 10 watts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
respectfully
Chet K
.
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Dear All,
Here is my perception of how the circuit is wired and one possible implementation of an attempted simulation. I've only been into this a few hours. Also attached are some response traces to single and double current pulses.
Spokane1
-
http://patents.justia.com/patent/5130608 (http://patents.justia.com/patent/5130608)
In one example, the module circuit is adjusted to produce 4,000 pulses per second with a pulse width of about 10 microseconds (with an average resting interval of about 240 microseconds), a load of 100 ohms, and a charging potential of 100 volts.
Using Ohm's Law, these conditions would produce 100 watts of peak power.
Using Equation I, the average power in the Example 1 can thus be calculated, i.e., about 4 watts.
Assuming that the power dissipated in the module itself is approximately 8 watts, the total average energy consumed is the sum of energy expenditure due to load and energy dissipated in the working module, namely a grand total of about 12 watts.
( Only to understand the difference: +/- 90% savings and not = misconception " C.O.P. 10X" )
Clearly, the average power consumed in the pulsed incandescence of a light bulb under the control of the inventive module of this example is as low as almost one-tenth the amount consumed in a conventional AC power supply for an incandescent light bulb.
Not only for luminaires : http://www.google.com/patents/US5942858
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To add another dimension to the argument of whether the H bridge can be replaced with a power function generator, it would only be true if the function generator could provide an open condition to the tank circuit during the 33% dead time. Normally a FG will present a low impedance output to a DUT when programmed for zero output e.g. during the dead time. So the H bridge may be unique by "letting go" of the tank during this period.
I am not familiar with power function generators capabilities, or whether it can provide the open condition so I tried driving the tank from a Voltage source executing a PWL (piece wise linear function)using a PWF file in LTSpice. The results do not match up with the same pulse sequence driving an H bridge.
I used the same values and timing as Spokane1's sim except only 5 cycles at +/-200 volts. The 200 volts was so that I could get some juice into the rectifiers 1N5817. I realize I may need more than 5 cycles.
So this is a single ended drive from a pseudo FG. Next I'll show an actual FET H bridge.
This is a first rough shot at it. I'll post all my results and more detail as time permits. forgive the errors.
green =drive
blue = tank voltage
red =tank current
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The conference Movie has been released By Aaron
and here is a comment from member Partzman [reposted with permission]
Partzman
Quote
""
I have finished watching Graham's MIT video and IMO, he really does give enough info to replicate.
Several points of note, when the input current as shown on CH2 (blue) reaches the negative peak, the primary core is saturated. At the flat top portion of the waveform, the primary core is at a higher permeability. The core bias is set of course by the PMs.
During the negative half cycle of the input voltage on CH1, the first pair of opposite H bridge switches are on and during the positive half cycle the second switch pair are used which is already known. However, during the remaining part of the input cycle when the core is in a high perm state, the second pair is left on and conduction is thru primarily the mosfet reverse conduction.
The synchronous mosfet switching uses both normal and reverse conduction and may have already been pointed out but not that I recall. While current is flowing thru the mosfet in the normal mode that is, when conventional current flow is from drain to source, the gate is switched off for a short period producing a large positive going voltage spike on the secondary. Also during this time, the secondary current and flux reverses
direction as is seen in the green channel and when the peak reverse is reached, gate voltage is again applied to the mosfet which now conducts in the reverse conduction mode that is, from source to drain with very low resistance. This action is what results in the output caps being charged negatively as shown. Graham also stated that the output current phasing is 180' from that shown.
Regarding the issue of the current connections on the input Clark/Hess power analyzer, he removed the original connections well after he had explained the operation of the device and all the input/output measurements. He made the change during a time he was explaining another aspect of the device.
The secondary core half is operated in a mostly linear mode while the primary core half is operating around the saturation knee. This seems to be a key prerequisite in the appropriate flux flows (or magnetic vector potential) along with the proper output synchronous timing.
I can now understand how a small capacitance added to the gates of the output synchronous mosfets could destroy the OU effect
end quote""
--------------------------------------------.
The link to Energetic forum is in the first post of this thread
and here is the link to Graham's talk mentioned above,
it is a "for sale" item ,with a percentage going to Graham.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20547-magnetic-implosion-transformer-graham-gunderson.html
respectfully
Chet K
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Same story again and again :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPrRxhYJMkQ
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Vasik
Here we do not look for a nicer fitting shoe or a fancier hat ...or ..
and honestly, assumptions of nonsense ,thievery, skullduggery or just plain error have ruled the day.
However
here we have something which Most have asked for [and never gotten at this forum] a properly presented claim
being tested by a properly qualified person using properly qualified test equipment.
having worked for test labs all my life , I realize the gaping holes in the above statement .
before the Page fills with
NOT or disagreement or claims of BS we must at the very least appreciate the opportunity to investigate this claim as presented ...which does indeed seem quite Mysterious .
that being said
Did you expect a red carpet a marching band and a guy to install it in your house
for free ??
welcome to the Grind of blindfolded investigation of world changing technology's... a path filled with distractions
dead ends and countless carnival hawkers .....
But "some day" ??
please be respectful as there are very talented fellows donating their very talented time and money ..to do the best they can to understand what is taking place here .
and those fellows are not charging you a dime ...
you want shoes ??
that's middle of isle 5 left side bottom shelf ..
you wanna change the world ??
That's isle two
the line forms outside over there by that guy in the pink tutu holding that sparky thing with the pink unicorn wearing a black leather mask [yes we have many different pink unicorns ,very popular...
I'm not sure whats sparking but don't get too close....
just another day...??
maybe not !!
you want to talk about _your_ world changing technology ?
Please Start a thread.. it truly does sound interesting. [isle seven next to the guy handing out sun glasses.
8)
respectfully
Chet K
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Vasik
Here we do not look for a nicer fitting shoe or a fancier hat ...or ..
and honestly, assumptions of nonsense ,thievery, skullduggery or just plain error have ruled the day.
However
here we have something which Most have asked for [and never gotten at this forum] a properly presented claim
being tested by a properly qualified person using properly qualified test equipment.
having worked for test labs all my life , I realize the gaping holes in the above statement .
before the Page fills with
NOT or disagreement or claims of BS we must at the very least appreciate the opportunity to investigate this claim as presented ...which does indeed seem quite Mysterious .
that being said
Did you expect a red carpet a marching band and a guy to install it in your house
for free ??
welcome to the Grind of blindfolded investigation of world changing technology's... a path filled with distractions
dead ends and countless carnival hawkers .....
But "some day" ??
please be respectful as there are very talented fellows donating their very talented time and money ..to do the best they can to understand what is taking place here .
and those fellows are not charging you a dime ...
you want shoes ??
that's middle of isle 5 left side bottom shelf ..
you wanna change the world ??
That's isle two
the line forms outside over there by that guy in the pink tutu holding that sparky thing with the pink unicorn wearing a black leather mask [yes we have many different pink unicorns ,very popular...
I'm not sure whats sparking but don't get too close....
just another day...??
maybe not !!
you want to talk about _your_ world changing technology ?
Please Start a thread.. it truly does sound interesting. [isle seven next to the guy handing out sun glasses.
8)
respectfully
Chet K
Please don't be upset, but my point is that I don't see the reason why I should pay money (buy DVD) for a chance to test something. There are plenty of good ideas around...
It's my opinion.
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Yeah, it reminds me of the Steorn thingy, something like SKDB.
A fee was payable!
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Free lunch is "isle 3"
I think its potato soup today ..
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Free lunch is "isle 3"
I think its potato soup today ..
In my experience, as with any of these OU ideas, I search to first find and identify where the "other" source of energy is that will be added to the input of the device, to give a higher output than the input. If there is no other energy source that can be added to the output, there is no higher output. It's that simple.
Liberty
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Where common sense cuts to the core (no pun intended):
All probe skewing and Clark-Hess glitches aside, I still would have liked to see a $20 "Kill-A-Watt" meter on the AC mains side of his device. With a claimed 5x or more gain in power, surely we could have looked at mains Watts in and Watts out (even guestimating the automobile lamp wattage by brightness) and had a much better reading on the veracity of the claim. Why this was not done speaks volumes.
I find it hard to believe that his main supply and driver circuit would be soaking up so much power that it would mask the gain, and furthermore, if it required such a dissipative circuit in order to work, of what use is it?
Is anybody getting my drift?
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Dear All,
Here is my version of the system schematic to date.
Spokane1
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Spokane1
The beauty of your schematic tells me you not only understand electronics very well, but can communicate your knowledge with a clearly drawn representation.
A good schematic is a work of art for those that can appreciate it.
Regards
Vortex1 / ION
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Spokane1
The beauty of your schematic tells me you not only understand electronics very well, but can communicate your knowledge with a clearly drawn representation.
A good schematic is a work of art for those that can appreciate it.
Regards
Vortex1 / ION
Dear Vortex/ION
Thank you for the drawing complement. Now if we can just fill in all the components that go into those driver boxes.
Spokane1
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Where common sense cuts to the core (no pun intended):
All probe skewing and Clark-Hess glitches aside, I still would have liked to see a $20 "Kill-A-Watt" meter on the AC mains side of his device. With a claimed 5x or more gain in power, surely we could have looked at mains Watts in and Watts out (even guestimating the automobile lamp wattage by brightness) and had a much better reading on the veracity of the claim. Why this was not done speaks volumes.
I find it hard to believe that his main supply and driver circuit would be soaking up so much power that it would mask the gain, and furthermore, if it required such a dissipative circuit in order to work, of what use is it?
Is anybody getting my drift?
Oh, I get your drift all right.
Look at the statements being used to promote and sell the DVD. Your Kill-A-Watt meter on the AC mains is designed to tell you the input power "that you paid for", right?
This year, Graham Gunderson showed the Magnetic Implosion Transformer that he invented and it measured out at 570% more output than the input he paid for!
(emphasis in the original)
As a matter of fact, he can dial the input down until it goes negative, which means the COP (coefficient of performance) is infinite! Coefficient is the ratio between desired work done in a system compared to the work that we have to pay for.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.energeticforum.com/291117-post1.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/291117-post1.html)
Correct me if I am wrong, but there have been no measurements that I have seen of the "input he paid for", or rather that somebody has to pay for, which would be the input from the AC mains to any and all power supplies used to run the device.
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HHmmm
You would be a ruff guy to work for..."are we there yet"?
Not yet ...gotta get all this business on the front end sorted so we can cut down the "payments" to the "black box" [where the magic happens]
Apparently that will be the easy part ....if the COP figure holds true ..??
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I believe Graham stated his device extracts between 6 to 8 watts of useable power and the COP can be set to infinity by just the twist of a pot.
Keep a look at http://perpetua.green/ for when he begins to post his complete disclosure.
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I believe Graham stated his device extracts between 6 to 8 watts of useable power and the COP can be set to infinity by just the twist of a pot.
Keep a look at http://perpetua.green/ (http://perpetua.green/) for when he begins to post his complete disclosure.
My computer goes nowhere with that link. Is it just my computer?
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I believe Graham stated his device extracts between 6 to 8 watts of useable power and the COP can be set to infinity by just the twist of a pot.
Keep a look at http://perpetua.green/ (http://perpetua.green/) for when he begins to post his complete disclosure.
Nothing there??? When will this complete disclosure happen?????
Yes he apparently drove the input to the primary coil into "0 power input" by feedback from the output pushing it into that condition but never demonstrated that the total input power was <0 coming from the wall socket that powered the device.
I can''t read his mind but I don't think that was the purpose of the demonstration.
Ben K4ZEP
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HHmmm
You would be a ruff guy to work for..."are we there yet"?
Not yet ...gotta get all this business on the front end sorted so we can cut down the "payments" to the "black box" [where the magic happens]
Apparently that will be the easy part ....if the COP figure holds true ..??
Are you missing the point? The power "that you pay for" is clearly the power that comes from the mains. Does anyone want to argue otherwise?
So what does that make the statements where "570 %" or "infinite COP" is being claimed in order to sell a DVD?
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My computer goes nowhere with that link. Is it just my computer?
It goes to GoDaddy for the moment. The site was purchased by Graham for when he decides to devote some time explaining how to "officially" replicate his device.
http://network-tools.com/default.asp?prog=whois&host=perpetua.green
All his contact information is there if folks would like to spam the crap out of him. I'm pretty sure with enough messages, crank calls and unsolicited visits, he will happily disappear into the ether, then we can go back to law and order. That's what everyone really wants right?
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Are you missing the point? The power "that you pay for" is clearly the power that comes from the mains. Does anyone want to argue otherwise?
So what does that make the statements where "570 %" or "infinite COP" is being claimed in order to sell a DVD?
There is a video on youtube somewhere,that shows the meter on the house spinning backwards when the guy uses his arc welder.
Wonder if he is saving money while welding?.
Brad
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There is a video on youtube somewhere,that shows the meter on the house spinning backwards when the guy uses his arc welder.
Wonder if he is saving money while welding?.
Brad
Hmm. I wonder if the spinning disk actually would turn the numbers back. Like in a car, the mile indicators cant simply be spun backwards to reduce the appearance of low mileage. Like if that were so that the welder was making the disk spin in the opposite direction, I think that would be a known issue. Maybe if the disk spins backwards the numbers still go forward in situations like this?
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Quote from: TinselKoala on August 07, 2016, 05:28:28 PM
Are you missing the point? The power "that you pay for" is clearly the power that comes from the mains. Does anyone want to argue otherwise?
So what does that make the statements where "570 %" or "infinite COP" is being claimed in order to sell a DVD?
There is a video on youtube somewhere,that shows the meter on the house spinning backwards when the guy uses his arc welder.
Wonder if he is saving money while welding?.
Brad
Brad do you actually believe the welding machine to be exhibiting OU in that instance ? I think not, I think even though the power meter disk is caused to spin backwards (for some reason) real power is still being consumed by the welding machine.
Which is a point I also made in the past, if a device is causing a huge reactive power content on the AC grid lines then the device is wasting power outside the "black box" so to speak, not correct in my view.
A killa watt meter should be used at the Grid power wall outlet so as to show what the device is causing to happen with the AC lines as far as reactive power goes. If you we being penalised for bad PF then it would cost you. If not being penalised for bad PF then it is costing the power company. I mean if you had to provide several 1000's of VA (without the grid) just so you could run a device with a few watts output you would soon see the losses.
eg. killa watt meter reads 2000 VA but only 20 watts real power delivered, this means a power supply over 2000VA is needed to run a device using only 20 watts, that is very bad design. The power supply losses are related to 2000 VA or more not 20 watts.
..
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Brad do you actually believe the welding machine to be exhibiting OU in that instance ? I think not, I think even though the power meter disk is caused to spin backwards (for some reason) real power is still being consumed by the welding machine.
Which is a point I also made in the past, if a device is causing a huge reactive power content on the AC grid lines then the device is wasting power outside the "black box" so to speak, not correct in my view.
A killa watt meter should be used at the Grid power wall outlet so as to show what the device is causing to happen with the AC lines as far as reactive power goes. If you we being penalised for bad PF then it would cost you. If not being penalised for bad PF then it is costing the power company. I mean if you had to provide several 1000's of VA (without the grid) just so you could run a device with a few watts output you would soon see the losses.
eg. killa watt meter reads 2000 VA but only 20 watts real power delivered, this means a power supply over 2000VA is needed to run a device using only 20 watts, that is very bad design. The power supply losses are related to 2000 VA or more not 20 watts.
..
No,not saying it is OU.
What i am saying is,it is not costing the guy a cent while he is using his arc welder. In fact,he would be saving money,as his meter is going backwards.
Do you know of anyone that has actually measured the power consumption of your everyday arc welder?__can you imagine what those magnetic fields within the transformer must be like when the arc is taking place.
And while on this subject--》why,when the polarity on the output of the welder is swapped,will the welding rod glow red hot,when it is an AC machine?
When welding stainless,you must swap the work lead and ground over,or the welding rod just glows orange hot,and turns into a molten mess. But why?--it is an AC output,and so it should have no polarity.
Then when you switch back to mild steel rods,you once again have to switch the output polarity back,or the same thing happens to the mild steel rods.
Im sure you have come across this FarmHand.
Brad
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From DC motor to pulsed DC motor and from DC transformer to pulsed DC transformer ,the special "pulse" effect :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current)
If I have a fixed current can I get "Inrush Voltage" ?
Hybrid ? Inrush Voltage X Inrush current ?
1 Hertz = 2 Pulses
Here an "AC-grid Infeeder" https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=12&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19900104&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=12&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19900104&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1)
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3821856&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.1&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en
probably also usefull for an "inhouse AC-grid circuit".
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No,not saying it is OU.
What i am saying is,it is not costing the guy a cent while he is using his arc welder. In fact,he would be saving money,as his meter is going backwards.
Do you know of anyone that has actually measured the power consumption of your everyday arc welder?__can you imagine what those magnetic fields within the transformer must be like when the arc is taking place.
And while on this subject--》why,when the polarity on the output of the welder is swapped,will the welding rod glow red hot,when it is an AC machine?
When welding stainless,you must swap the work lead and ground over,or the welding rod just glows orange hot,and turns into a molten mess. But why?--it is an AC output,and so it should have no polarity.
Then when you switch back to mild steel rods,you once again have to switch the output polarity back,or the same thing happens to the mild steel rods.
Im sure you have come across this FarmHand.
Brad
No I can't explain that issue Brad, I've never had occasion to use stainless rods that I can recall, I've always used MIG or TIG to weld stainless steel and aluminium as far as I can recall. I can recall Arc-Drift problems when using DC welding machines which requires coiling a DC lead around or on the job to stop it, It's a magnetic effect. Maybe your polarity issue is a nuance of that particular machine.
Did you google it ? Might get an explanation that way. Interesting issue.
..
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Spokane1
Dear All,
Here is a drawing of the Synchronous Diode Component Layout to help facilitate discussions about this sub assembly.
Enjoy!
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The risc of false/wrong measurements by "eye/instruments" about light sources as Output-Wattage
indicators :
http://google.com/patents/WO2015157722A1?cl=en (http://google.com/patents/WO2015157722A1?cl=en)
Part of the crux of this invention is that the detection timing of human visual process, as well as the measurement speed of light with LUX meters, react too slow to average the light intensities produced by various high frequencies pulsed current duty cycles. At these frequencies, regardless of the duty cycle percentage, the LUX meter, and more importantly human physiology, sees the light as a constant illumination rather than dimmed. Thus pulse width dimming at these frequencies, while it actually exists, is not perceived much and can only be measured by the fastest light metering devices.
https://www.google.com/patents/US5130608 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5130608)
The network according to my present invention generates a train of pulse waves of extremely narrow pulse width. These pulses are amplified and directed into a fast switching power transistor. When the power transistor conducts the pulse train, current flows through the load for a time interval equal to the pulse width which may be measured in nanoseconds or microseconds. Since the useful energy is expended mainly during the pulse width but not during the resting period between pulses, which is relatively much larger than the pulse width, yet too short to be perceptible to the human eye, considerable energy can be saved while nevertheless maintaining brightness of illumination.
In other words, the light-producing ultra short DC pulses are selected sufficiently close in sequence (say 4,000 pulses per second) to prevent the human eye because of its natural retentivity, to discern the intervening resting or nonpulsed periods as shadows. As is well-known in the lighting art, fluorescent light is perceived continuous at 60 cycles AC per second, which is above the time-resolving ability of the eye or critical fusion frequency (CFF). Another- benefit on my present invention is to increase the longevity of incandescent load resistor elements.
In one example, the module circuit is adjusted to produce 4,000 pulses per second with a pulse width of about 10 microseconds (with an average resting interval of about 240 microseconds), a load of 100 ohms, and a charging potential of 100 volts. Using Ohm's Law, these conditions would produce 100 watts of peak power. Using Equation I, the average power in the Example 1 can thus be calculated, i.e., about 4 watts. Assuming that the power dissipated in the module itself is approximately 8 watts, the total average energy consumed is the sum of energy expenditure due to load and energy dissipated in the working module, namely a grand total of about 12 watts.
Clearly, the average power consumed in the pulsed incandescence of a light bulb under the control of the inventive module of this example is as low as almost one-tenth the amount consumed in a conventional AC power supply for an incandescent light bulb.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold)
about MEG patent-grant ability :
from Paul Galey
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=fr_EP&FT=D&date=19761217&CC=FR&NR=2312135A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=fr_EP&FT=D&date=19761217&CC=FR&NR=2312135A1&KC=A1)
to "Citing documents"
Luis Ramon Suarez
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=4&adjacent=true&locale=fr_EP&FT=D&date=20070201&CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=4&adjacent=true&locale=fr_EP&FT=D&date=20070201&CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20070201&DB=&locale=fr_ch DEFINITIVE PROTECTION (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20070201&DB=&locale=fr_ch)
About MEG and system free available energy :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=BE&NR=1018711A3&KC=A3&FT=D&ND=5&date=20110705&DB=EPODOC&locale=fr_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=BE&NR=1018711A3&KC=A3&FT=D&ND=5&date=20110705&DB=EPODOC&locale=fr_EP)
Pour de petites puissances de 25 à 40 kilowatts/jour, les gains moyens oscilleront de 18 à 20 %. Par contre, pour des puissances supérieures à 100 kW/jours, les gains moyens pourront, en principe, vite atteindre plus de 25 %.
These values are similar this one :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=17&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=fr_EP&FT=D&date=19860717&CC=DE&NR=3501076A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=17&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=fr_EP&FT=D&date=19860717&CC=DE&NR=3501076A1&KC=A1)
Wenn in Anlehnung an bisherige Wechselhysteresetheorien (siehe anfangs) in eine 500 g schwere Ferritmagnetplatte bei einer Zyklenfrequenz von 5000 Hz etwa 25 kW "hinein- fliessen", so ergibt sich bei einem angenommenen Wandlerwirkungsgrad von 20% als sekundär entnommen eine Leistung von 5 kW.
500g Ferritmagnet for 5 KW power output(Frequency dependance,here 5 KHz) comparing with the offered details about Paul Galeys static generator :
Pour chaque dispositif d'une puissance de 2 kW en courant alternatif 220 volts,50 hertz par exemple,utilisant des aimants ferrites courants,il faudrait environ 75 grammes d'aimant.
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Spokane1
Dear All,
Here is a drawing of the Synchronous Diode Component Layout to help facilitate discussions about this sub assembly.
Enjoy!
Beautiful work S1! Maybe this can get us back on track!
Ben K4ZEP
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The real question is to understand what is going on in the Synchronous Diode section. Do you happen to know what the upper limit of leakage power might be from a FET gate to the source-drain current path?
There is no upper limit since the current flowing due to the MOSFET's Gate Leakage is proportional to the voltages & frequencies appearing between the gate and drain terminals. Fore example, the reactance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_reactance#Capacitive_reactance) of a 500pF capacitance @ 1MHz is 318Ω.
If you have the drain swinging by 600V with respect to the gate, then the instantaneous power transfer across that 318Ω reactance will be 1131W.
If that 600V swing happens only 0.5% of the total cycle time, then the average power transferred by that capacitive reactance will be 5.6W.
P.S.
The Miller's capacitance decreases as the gate drain voltage increases.
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There is no upper limit since the current flowing due to the MOSFET's Gate Leakage is proportional to the voltages & frequencies appearing between the gate and drain terminals. Fore example, the reactance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_reactance#Capacitive_reactance) of a 500pF capacitance @ 1MHz is 318Ω.
If you have the drain swinging by 600V with respect to the gate, then the instantaneous power transfer across that 318Ω reactance will be 1131W.
If that 600V swing happens only 0.5% of the total cycle time, then the average power transferred by that capacitive reactance will be 5.6W.
P.S.
The Miller's capacitance decreases as the gate drain voltage increases.
But with the transformer action dropping the voltage to about 12-20 VAC, what is the value then????? The transformer is not 1/1! Transfer is in the mw range.
Ben K4ZEP
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But with the transformer action dropping the voltage to about 12-20 VAC, what is the value then? ??? ? The transformer is not 1/1! Transfer is in the mw range.
I was more concerned about the Gate Leakage from the MOSFETs that are AFTER the transformer.
AFAIK these MOSFETs form the synchronous rectifier and the secondary/output 1μs interrupter circuit.
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I couldn't find anything under the part number on Spokane1's diagram, C2M002510D. Neither the Cree website nor DigiKey lists anything with that part number that I could find. However, the nearest thing I could find is the C2M0025120D mosfet, 1200V 90A 34mOhm Rdson. Only 69 dollars and 80 cents _each_, from DigiKey. Data sheet attached:
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2.7nF gate capacitance ...OUCH!
...but only 15pf reverse transfer capacitance (w/o transconductance multiplier).
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I was more concerned about the Gate Leakage from the MOSFETs that are AFTER the transformer.
AFAIK these MOSFETs form the synchronous rectifier and the secondary/output 1μs interrupter circuit.
Dear verpies,
What kind of leakage takes place if the MOSFETS are constantly on? In order to pass energy through a parasitic Miller capacitance don't we have to have AC present? In this circuit the MOSFETS are on for 20 uS (50 k cps) and then are briefly shut off for 5 to 1000 nS (I don't know the exact timing). Wouldn't this very narrow duty factor have a tendency to reduce the kinds of losses you are addressing?
Spokane1
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I couldn't find anything under the part number on Spokane1's diagram, C2M002510D. Neither the Cree website nor DigiKey lists anything with that part number that I could find. However, the nearest thing I could find is the C2M0025120D mosfet, 1200V 90A 34mOhm Rdson. Only 69 dollars and 80 cents _each_, from DigiKey. Data sheet attached:
Dear TK,
Thanks for pointing this out. I shall make corrections on the next revision.
Let me know if you can see anything else that needs improvement.
Spokane1
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What kind of leakage takes place if the MOSFETS are constantly on?
In order to pass energy through a parasitic Miller capacitance don't we have to have AC present?
No, any change in the voltage appearing between the gate and drain is enough. Even one pulse. Many cycles of AC are not required.
Also, if the source's potential is free to vary (as in a source follower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_drain)) then the energy can flow from the gate to the source circuit, too.
In this circuit the MOSFETS are on for 20 uS (50 k cps) and then are briefly shut off for 5 to 1000 nS (I don't know the exact timing). Wouldn't this very narrow duty factor have a tendency to reduce the kinds of losses you are addressing?
Yes, the duration of the period when dv/dt is greater than zero, will affect the gate leakage proportionally. In my calculation above, I accounted for a 0.5% duty factor and a pulse having dv/dt = 600V/1us.
The amount of the MOSFET's gate leakage depends on the overall circuit configuration and should be measured empirically for best accuracy.
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Dear All,
Here is my first shot at the Schematic for the Synchronous Diode Sub Assembly. Comments and suggestions are welcomed.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Here is my first shot at the Schematic for the Synchronous Diode Sub Assembly. Comments and suggestions are welcomed.
Spokane1
What a prodigious amount of work there Spok1. Is there possibly a small problem with the rectifier diode for the negative -5 volt regulators?
Possibly a CT on the transformer in that portion of circuit connected to common.
Ben K4ZEP
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Dear K4zep
You are absolutely right, I need to make some adjustments there.
Also Graham likes to use two large tantalum capacitors with each MOSFET driver, which are not shown in this drawing version.
I'm not to sure about the wired logic that controls the start-up and shut down of the power supply switching transformer, I believe that the intent is to have any of the regulator/storage circuits start the power switching when a low voltage condition is detected. I would also think that an over voltage condition would shut down the power supply MOSFET as well, thus two Zener's per isolation monitor.
I'm not really sure where the main power switching element is. That little transistor looking thing next to the Driver chip looks to small to run six low power regulators. It could be on the back of the circuit board along with all the needed storage capacitor's.
I'm not a switch-mode power supply designer. Graham's intent was to make a very low energy power supply to provide a great deal of isolation at the highest efficiency that would run the Synchronous Diode circuit. He has spent years designing and building these kinds of circuits, so I believe that what we are looking at is the best there is using DigiKey components.
Spokane1
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Thanks Spokane1 for the diagram, I can appreciate how much work that is. That's all well and good, but I'm having trouble believing that the circuit you've drawn out could provide enough current for the driver chips to switch into the Gate capacitances of the mosfets at 50 kHz. Where does the input power come from for this circuit? Is it coming from the breadboard?
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Thanks Spokane1 for the diagram, I can appreciate how much work that is. That's all well and good, but I'm having trouble believing that the circuit you've drawn out could provide enough current for the driver chips to switch into the Gate capacitances of the mosfets at 50 kHz. Where does the input power come from for this circuit? Is it coming from the breadboard?
Dear TK,
From my circuit tracing there is a higher voltage source (20V to 32V?) that comes from the upper left hand corner of the logic breadboard and is supplied to both shielded ribbon cables that go to the synchronous diode and the H-Bridge. If the pin designations are the same from one end of the cable to the other then you can see this higher voltage come in on one of the upper lines. I just show it as providing +20V.
The proposed voltages may be way low if it takes 25V typically to trigger those CREE mosfet's. Graham likes to over drive his devices by 20% so he would need a regulated 30 volt supply for his isolated power supplies. I suppose this over driven condition would add to the Miller capacitance loss discussion.
As far as how much power it takes - we shall know soon enough as I build one of these.
How important is the isolation issue for this kind of circuit if we just use a series of 9 Volt batteries? Surly these would last long enough to get a decent measure of the energy need to switch the mosfet's.
How would you propose that we measure the power output of a battery operated system tapped at three different voltage locations? I don't suppose there is an easy way to do this. We would probably need three current measurements and three voltage measurements.
Having one voltage and running it through a series of regulators would probably increase our losses.
Any ideas?
Spokane1
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We can talk about battery power measurments later. At the moment I have a few questions about your last schematic.
The unidentified mosfet driven by the IXDD614 driver.... is that the small TO-92 object in the center near the driver chip? This one does seem to be given a 20 volt gate signal at however many amps the +20V supply and the driver can supply. What is the part number of this tiny mosfet? Or is the unidentified mosfet some other part hidden under the circuit board? If so what is that TO-92 device?
The drivers shown connected to the Gates of the actual Synch Rectifier mosfets on the right side of the diagram... what is going on there? Are these parts hidden away? In any case it seems to me that they can only supply +12V max to the Gates.... and I have my doubts about the current that is available here. Also there is something funny about the diodes between Gate and Source for these mosfets. It looks to me like a +voltage gate signal is connected directly to ground "common" and mosfet Sources through two series diodes, one of which is a zener, but both are forward biased. How does this arrangement actually drive the Gates with sufficient voltage for a hard turn-on?
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We can talk about battery power measurments later. At the moment I have a few questions about your last schematic.
The unidentified mosfet driven by the IXDD614 driver.... is that the small TO-92 object in the center near the driver chip? This one does seem to be given a 20 volt gate signal at however many amps the +20V supply and the driver can supply. What is the part number of this tiny mosfet? Or is the unidentified mosfet some other part hidden under the circuit board? If so what is that TO-92 device?
The drivers shown connected to the Gates of the actual Synch Rectifier mosfets on the right side of the diagram... what is going on there? Are these parts hidden away? In any case it seems to me that they can only supply +12V max to the Gates.... and I have my doubts about the current that is available here. Also there is something funny about the diodes between Gate and Source for these mosfets. It looks to me like a +voltage gate signal is connected directly to ground "common" and mosfet Sources through two series diodes, one of which is a zener, but both are forward biased. How does this arrangement actually drive the Gates with sufficient voltage for a hard turn-on?
Dear TK
You are certainly on the Ball this morning. You are bringing up the same issues that are still puzzling me as we speak. Just how does that little solid state device supply enough current to operate 6 regulators and drive two large power MOSFET's. The problem is that that little TO-92 device is the only component with in range of the IXDD614 driver and it doesn't even have a heat sink. There has to be a suitable switch some where that is most likely being operated by that driver, so I just showed a MOSFET since that is what that driver is designed to support. I suspect that Graham didn't need the horsepower of that driver, but happened to have several on hand. I don't have a part number for that TO-92 device. I figure we will just use what we have on hand or what we can afford.
That network of Zener diodes, diodes, and capacitors is Graham's method to eliminate the gate resistor. I probably have them connected improperly. These are the six surface mount components soldered directly to the MOSFET body. These components are supposed to be two snubber networks. One clips the ON voltage while the other clips the negative bias. Graham says that in high speed applications just the parasitic inductance from the short leads of a component will cause voltage overshoot. I could have screwed up the polarity when I was mirroring the components when drafting. Graham said that the diode is to back up the Zener and take some stress off of it. I'm not really sure which diode goes where, nor am I certain about the capacitor connection. I plan to check out references on gate snubber circuits and see if I can get some guidance. My intent here was to show that these kinds of components are installed at that location.
The drivers for the main MOSFETS are hidden. You will notice the 5 each blue header connectors at the top of the MOSFET. The MOSFET is mounted to a tiny circuit board that plugs into these header pins. Graham says he has a high speed driver mounted on this circuit board. I suppose another IXDD614 along with the needed storage capacitors to supply that 16 Amp turn on pulse. I wouldn't doubt that all the components on that mini circuit board are of the surface mount variety.
Also I'm sure that +12 volts needs to be something higher since those SiC MOSFET's typically need +25 gate voltage plus what ever over drive pulse people want to use. I'm now thinking that he must have had +32 volts available as his high rail. The IXDD614 will take +40. The conductor that caries the high rail voltage to the synchronous diode is just another wire in that ribbon cable, so I suppose it is about $#24 AWG.
I don't have the experience to know how much current would be needed to run all this stuff on that circuit board, but I'm pretty sure that at +32V the current would not be a problem, maybe 200 mA?
Feel free to bleed (make red-line changes) all over that drawing. ION has already pointed out some other improvements that are needed as well.
Spokane1
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I can understand why Graham did the power supply section the way he did. He was literally backed into a corner, trying to get high isolation between sections and good regulation on a budget. The leakage inductance of the multiple windings spread out as they are on a toroidal core for the required HV isolation, would not provide good regulation if it was a typical pwm switchmode design, so he was forced to use the linear regulators.
I would have opted for two separate transformers for HV isolation with a switchmode driver chip on each. Then he could have tightly coupled the windings of the three supplies on each transformer for good regulation via optical feedback from the highest loaded winding and not have needed the wasteful linear regulators.
Alternately, there are folks that make multiple output (small brick encapsulated) power supplies that have very high isolation to the input and are a good fit for this type of H bridge design.
But when you are on a tight budget, discrete is the way to go, as Graham did.
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I can understand why Graham did the power supply section the way he did. He was literally backed into a corner, trying to get high isolation between sections and good regulation on a budget. The leakage inductance of the multiple windings spread out as they are on a toroidal core for the required HV isolation, would not provide good regulation if it was a typical pwm switchmode design, so he was forced to use the linear regulators.
I would have opted for two separate transformers for HV isolation with a switchmode driver chip on each. Then he could have tightly coupled the windings of the three supplies on each transformer for good regulation via optical feedback from the highest loaded winding and not have needed the wasteful linear regulators.
Alternately, there are folks that make multiple output (small brick encapsulated) power supplies that have very high isolation to the input and are a good fit for this type of H bridge design.
But when you are on a tight budget, discrete is the way to go, as Graham did.
Dear Vortex,
Your proposal is based upon good electronic engineering practice. For this system there is another issue that seems to be present. If you notice the master clock for both the Synchronous Diode and the H-Bridge is located back on the logic board. It is U3 which is 1/2 of a TS556 Dual CMOS timer.
In the performance evaluation of this circuit it has been pointed out by Graham that sometimes the operational frequency, or one of its harmonics, grossly interferes with his power measurement instrumentation. If there were 6 PWM's utilized in the over all circuit (2 for the backend diode and 4 for the H-Bridge) I think it would be extremely difficult to determine which one was causing problems during an interference event. With a master clock architecture a simple adjustment to a micro trim pot would shift the frequency of all the power supplies. I doubt that such a frequency change would impact the operation of the power output, but it would require a topology that depended upon a central clock signal.
Anyway this is my interpenetration of what is going on between the components on the logic board and what isn't on the backend diode system.
However, with the advantage of this global control comes the loss of efficiency. I'm not even sure if he is using TO-92 linear regulators. He is using something that is in a TO-92 case. Can you even make a usable regulator with one transistor?
If there wasn't a sensitivity issue with the evaluation equipment I would do it just like you say.
Spokane1
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... only, on the photos of Gunderson's logic board and in Spokane1's schematics, there is no adjustable element (micro trimpot or trimmer cap) in the U3 556 clock circuit. It is wired to produce a fixed frequency.
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... only, on the photos of Gunderson's logic board and in Spokane1's schematics, there is no adjustable element (micro trimpot or trimmer cap) in the U3 556 clock circuit. It is wired to produce a fixed frequency.
I do remember in the video when he was trying to get the RH power monitor to settle down, he adjusted something on the board with a little screwdriver and it did seem to affect
the jittering that was going on. Sort of shruged his sholders and continued. It seemed as time went on, drift or whatever, he didn't seem to worry about displayed measurements but more about discussing the device.
Ben K4ZEP
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Yes, but whatever he adjusted then, it wasn't the U3 TS556 timer "master clock". Unless he rewired the logic board between the demonstration and the time the photos were taken.
Note: In Spokane1's schematic he has the timing resistor as 680R, but on the actual board photo it appears to be 22k.On my breadboard the 680R gives a frequency of about 52 kHz or so, and the 22k gives a frequency of about 2.54 kHz.
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... only, on the photos of Gunderson's logic board and in Spokane1's schematics, there is no adjustable element (micro trimpot or trimmer cap) in the U3 556 clock circuit. It is wired to produce a fixed frequency.
Dear TK,
Good catch. You are absolutely right. There is no adjustable trim pot on that timer. The adjustment on the master 74HC123 chip would be the only one that could impact the frequency of operation.
Perhaps there is an advantage in adjusting the frequency of operation for this process rather than that of the power supplies.
Thanks for keeping my ducks in a row.
Spokane1
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I suspect that Graham didn't need the horsepower of that driver, but happened to have several on hand.
...
I suppose another IXDD614 along with the needed storage capacitors to supply that 16 Amp turn on pulse. I wouldn't doubt that all the components on that mini circuit board are of the surface mount variety.
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that there are some IXDD614 MOSFET drivers that provide 16A turn-on/off pulses and some that provide only milliamp pulses?
IMO single milliamps are not enough to charge/discharge under a microsecond the 161nC gate charge, formed by the 2773pF gate-source capacitance + gate-drain Miller's capacitance multiplied by the MOSFET's transconductance ( 15pF * 23.6 = 354pF ).
Also I'm sure that +12 volts needs to be something higher since those SiC MOSFET's typically need +25 gate voltage plus what ever over drive pulse people want to use.
But this datasheet (http://overunity.com/16724/graham-gundersons-energy-conference-presentation-most-impressive-and-mysterious/dlattach/attach/159216/) lists a mere 4V gate voltage needed to turn-on this MOSFET ( VGS(th) ) while the maximum tolerable gate-to-source voltage ( VGSmax ) is listed as +25V and -10V negative. Exceeding these maximum ratings leads to gate insulator damage (MOSFET damage).
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Hello. I recall Graham Gunderson as a genius guy ... from some 15 years ago... he was doing experiments on magnets made of non magnetic materials - which he kept secret and asked us to not question him about the method - and then I lost connection with him. Has anybody any idea if he came out with those magnets? Thanks!
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I don't understand. Are you suggesting that there are some IXDD614 MOSFET drivers that provide 16A turn-on/off pulses and some that provide only milliamp pulses?
IMO single milliamps are not enough to charge/discharge under a microsecond the 161nC gate charge, formed by the 2773pF gate-source capacitance + gate-drain Miller's capacitance multiplied by the MOSFET's transconductance ( 15pF * 23.6 = 354pF ).
But this datasheet (http://overunity.com/16724/graham-gundersons-energy-conference-presentation-most-impressive-and-mysterious/dlattach/attach/159216/) lists a mere 4V gate voltage needed to turn-on this MOSFET ( VGS(th) ) while the maximum tolerable gate-to-source voltage ( VGSmax ) is listed as +25V and -10V negative. Exceeding these maximum ratings leads to gate insulator damage (MOSFET damage).
Dear verpies,
Lower cost MOSFET drivers only put out 3-4 Amp control pulses (like the ones I'm using) relative to the $2.62 IXDD614 that can put out a 16 Amp pulse quickly. In my last post I was pointing out that such a high performance driver was probably not needed for the TO-92 sized switching element apparently being used.
On gate driving parameters:
It is all a question of speed, where you need it, and how much you want to pay for it. Many devices can improve their performance by overdriving the gate parameters by 5%, 10% or 20%. It depends upon the manufacture. For production design, where you want the device to last 20 years, then the data sheet parameters are good guidance. If you are doing cutting edge development work where that extra 20% means the difference between clear success or so-so success for something that is only going to run for a few hours in its entire life time, then data sheet parameters are routinely exceeded - just like high performance racing engines. But this comes at the cost of a lot of smoke as some devices (and engines) fail to rise to the occasion.
Graham claims that CREE components can handle 20% over drive, at least in the time frame he works with. He added extra clamping components to insure that the gate signal pulse doesn't exceed these higher voltages.
If you want the high speed transitions then you need to exercise the full limits of the device being used.
At $70 a power MOSFET I'm not going to be that bold for a while and will have to settle for so-so success.
Spokane1
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Hello. I recall Graham Gunderson as a genius guy ... from some 15 years ago... he was doing experiments on magnets made of non magnetic materials - which he kept secret and asked us to not question him about the method - and then I lost connection with him. Has anybody any idea if he came out with those magnets? Thanks!
Dear Smann,
As I understand it Graham went to work for Mark Gobles about that long ago. Mr. Gobles had discovered some kind of superconducting carbon nano-tubes that held a lot of promise. He received some substantial funding to advance his discovery. Again as I understand it the work came to a dead end when it was determined that they couldn't increase the current levels beyond the initial discovery. If they could then the non-metallic magnet would have become a reality. So I think the whole idea is sitting in a library somewhere in someone's Master thesis paper.
Mr. Gobles was still flush with money and developed an interest in non-classical conversion systems (Free Energy). He hired Graham Gunderson to explore some of his ideas and to examine other inventors ideas. When the money ran out Mr. Gobles gave Graham all the collected equipment. The company changed hands and Graham continued to work for the new owner for about four years. He was laid off about two years ago.
Now Graham works as an electronics technician trouble shooting aircraft instrumentation in Spokane.
Spokane1
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Mark Goldes and Randall Mills have gotten through a fair few dollars in their time.
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Thank you Spokane1 !
May I ask why why do my messages not appear? You replied to me but my original message is not on the thread and my status says that I have zero posts. Thanks!
Dear Smann,
............................
Spokane1
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Thank you Spokane1 !
May I ask why why do my messages not appear? You replied to me but my original message is not on the thread and my status says that I have zero posts. Thanks!
Dear Smann,
That is odd. Your post showed up quite normally on my machine. Then again I've been given some moderator control buttons to use (which haven't been needed). I shall ask Chet K. he seems to know a lot about these things.
Spokane1
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Spokane
His original post is #295 ...its there ,he must have missed it??
you can remove this post if you wish .
OH
and Congrats on the promotion !!
respectfully
Chet K
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Thank you Spokane1 !
May I ask why why do my messages not appear? You replied to me but my original message is not on the thread and my status says that I have zero posts. Thanks!
Smann,
Your posts appear to be normal for me also. Your post asking about GG seems to be normal to me. And your posts after that also. According to what I see you now have 6 posts total.
Carroll
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Gentlemen,
Folks the drawing that was posted here this morning has some missing components this is a better version.
In my simulations of the H-Bridge circuit I have found that two of the MOSFETS are not active therefore making them unneeded. Upon further examination I have found that the entire H-Bridge can be replaced with one switch and a diode. The input to the primary of the Gunderson Transformer is the same in that it produces the same voltage and current wave forms with far fewer components.
k4zep made additional simplifications by proposing that the switching elements be placed on the low side of the circuit to better reference driver connections. This circuit variation also simulates the same as a full four element H-Bridge.
Graham said 7/18/2016 that he was planning to redo his H-Bridge with a two switch design. He also said that providing schematics to his demonstration device would be pointless since he was planning to re-do all the circuits. Both statements seem to be correct.
Anyway, here is the proposed simplified circuit. The elimination of three switching elements should reduce the gate leakage issue by 50%.
Does anyone see any issues with this design and why it might not work as good as a full H-Bridge in this application?
Oops the polarity on the 220 VDC power supply is backwards.
Also pardon for the large jpg capture. My computer crashed yestserday and I'm running in safe mode and have no access to my photo re-sizing tools. I have two job tickets into the company Help Desk.
Spokane1
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Gentlemen,
Here is my take on the operation of the Synchronous Diode.
Comments Welcomed!
Spokane1
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Thanks for all the hard work the users are doing here in analyzing the Gunderson MIT.
Great progress so far.
Well, I will join in a few days, cause I am still stuck in some tax work and flat renovation.
When I am done with that I will also buy the MIT conference movie and analyse it.
Well, here are all the latest movies so far released from the conference.
I would be glad if you could support overunity.com by getting and buying these
movies via these affiliate links ( you don´t pay more), as it helps to pay the hosting fees and maintainance work
and upcoming sites I am working on.
Many thanks in advance. Best Regards, Stefan.
2016 ENERGY SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY CONFERENCE VIDEOS RELEASED SO FAR:
Magnetic Implosion Transformer by Graham Gunderson - http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=14
Moray B. King: From Nanobubbles to Ball Lightning: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=85
Babcock DC Motor Disclosure by Paul Babcock: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=33
Cold Electricity by Aaron Murakami: http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=41
Fundamentals of the Transforming Generator by Jim Murray - http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=21
Open System Physics & Thermodynamics by Mike Waters - http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=39
Bedini SG - Beyond the Advanced Handbook by Peter Lindemann - http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=10
Electrical Transmission in Multiple Coordinate Systems by Eric Dollard - http://www.emediapress.com/go.php?offer=harti&pid=59
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Dear All.
Here is my take on the Primary circuit timing sequence.
Spokane1
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There is a video on youtube somewhere,that shows the meter on the house spinning backwards when the guy uses his arc welder.
Wonder if he is saving money while welding?.
Brad
Hi tinman
I want to see that video. Would you like to post link here??
What is very interesting for me is arc welder and LCD-screen monitor anomaly !! Something strange has happened with liquid crystals !!
Thanks !!
Enjoykin
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Dear All,
This weekends work showed a little promise. I was able to get the junk box mockup circuit to lock into the proper timing sequence to display the discontinuous sine wave. I just have the primary circuit operational. This evening I shall add the synchronous diode circuit and start to get a look at the backend operation. For what its worth this circuit shows:
1. This circuit will function at 12 VDC (using the single switch approach)
2. Operation can take place as low as 3.2 kHz
3. A classical laminated iron core will support the novel oscillation pattern.
None of this means that we are in the OU window of operation, but it is nice to see some hardware implementation of the circuit under discussion. Using the component parameters I have in the actual circuit the simulation shows that I might be able to harvest up 6.5 Watts at a COP of .863. I'm sure the real world performance will be far less than this.
The advantage of the 12 V approach is that all the excitation energy comes from one source. All the gate losses, skew losses, and magnetic probe interference issues can be evaluated. If this circuit can perform as a self runner then this is the direction to go.
The simulation also shows that the circuit performance improves if I were to use a smaller charging inductance choke. The junk box device (from a salvaged X-Ray transformer) has a 1 KHz inductance of 11.5 mH. The simulation shows that I need a 2 mH unit there. Grahams circuit apparently used a .0324 mH custom device.
If any one is interested in a schematic for this temporary evaluation circuit let me know. I'm sure there will be several variations employed as the circuit technique improves.
Spokane1
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Looks nice Spokane1! Love the LeCroy.
Are you using readings from that green current transformer in your calculations? Have you corrected for any phase shift in the current transformer readings?
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Looks nice Spokane1! Love the LeCroy.
Are you using readings from that green current transformer in your calculations? Have you corrected for any phase shift in the current transformer readings?
Dear TK,
"Oh Great Master of Measurement bestow upon this humble and unworthy novice the secrets of professional analysis. Show me the path to accurate and meaningful evaluation of the True and Pure knowledge of Performance. I have only my hands and a few crude tools to sacrifice to this higher cause."
I haven't used any of the observations for calculations nor have I corrected for any phase shift since I don't know how to do that. I was busy just attempting to get the circuit to run. The photos are from last Sunday evening and are of the primary circuit only. Now I have the secondary circuit operational and can actually harvest a little on the back end. After making adjustments and changing gate resistors I was able to collect a whooping 1.75 V across the output capacitor using a Harbor Freight DVM.
The next step is to add some additional wide band current transformers on the secondary in two places to see what might be going on there and how the harvest circuit works.
I did notice that once I started to harvest secondary energy that my tank voltage became lopsided with the initial negative swing being larger than the following positive swing. (No photos since I left my cell phone at work). Also the current trace is not very close to what Graham had, then again I'm glad that this circuit functions at all.
I just purchased a new Import LCR meter and the instruction book is all in Japanese or something, so I can't follow the calibration procedure. So, I'm not sure my static inductance measurements of the transformer are correct or not. Also I need to do some DC resistance measurements of the transformer since there is significant losses there, much more than what Graham had with his huge Litz wire windings.
Anyway this is a place to start.
Spokane1
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Looks good as always! I'm really glad you are using the logic board rather than an external arrangement of FGs.
As far as the phase shift of the Pearson current monitor, here's some info from Pearson:
http://www.pearsonelectronics.com/phase-shift (http://www.pearsonelectronics.com/phase-shift)
And from another site:
Phase angle errors are more complex. The current transformer introduces a phase shift (or time delay) in the AC current signal, relative to the actual current. This is commonly measured in degrees and varies from 0.2 degrees (or better) for highly accurate CTs to as high as 6 degrees. At and near unity power factor, CT phase angle errors have little effect on the measured power and energy. However, at lower power factors, such as 0.7 or below (especially below 0.5), even small phase angle errors can cause large errors in the measured power and energy.
(emphasis mine)
Correction will involve using the scope's "deskew" or channel delay function to compensate for the phase delay of the CT. Measuring the phase delay in order to cancel it by the delay setting would involve taking a Vdrop measurement across a known noninductive resistance with a Kelvin-type probe arrangement and comparing that with a simultaneous measurement from the CT in the same current loop, done at the operating frequency range of interest.
Also... the mosfets. The IRFPG50 is slow and has a high resistance of 2 ohms when fully on. I've done a lot of work with that particular mosfet... heh heh... and I don't think I'd want to use it in a high-frequency H-bridge or an energy harvesting circuit.
I'd be tempted to try IRFP260n instead, since you are operating at relatively low input voltage. Just to see if they can take the strain.... 8)
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Also... the mosfets. The IRFPG50 is slow and has a high resistance of 2 ohms when fully on. I've done a lot of work with that particular mosfet... heh heh... and I don't think I'd want to use it in a high-frequency H-bridge or an energy harvesting circuit.
Dear TK,
I figured as much for those MOSFETS, But the price is right when you have them on hand. These will probably be the first things to go as I get this circuit going as good as it is going to get using an iron core. At 3 kHz their slowness is most likely not going to impact a basic understanding of what is going on. Right now I believe that we have at least three proposed approaches for a harvesting protocol. This circuit might determine which is best.
As far as measurements go, can't we just measure the usable energy in and the usable energy out and dispense with Kelvin probes (which I probably can't afford). I have placed a current sensing resistor at the battery. Is there some method that you would recommend where I could see how much power is coming from the battery and compare that to how much power is being consumed by the load? To me what happens in-between is not all the relevant to our goal. (except for engineering judgments) Both ends are fitted with large smoothing capacitors. An accuracy within 5% would be good enough for me. If this system can't produce a COP of at least 5.0 then it is probably not going to have much commercial value anyway.
Dealing with AF and DC mixed for measurement purposes with $5 DVM's is not my forte, but it is probably what most researchers have to work with.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
Here is a measurement question for this morning. I'm attempting to observe the secondary current in my iron core transformer.
I'm using a Pearson Model 6164 Wide Band Current Transformer that has a sensitivity of 0.05 Volts / Amp. It is a 50 Ohm device so I set the scope input parameters to this. I projected that there was not going to be much current to observe so I wrapped five (5) turns of the secondary lead around it and reconnected it. The transformer leads are about 16" long to start with.
What I observed was not expected since none of my simulations displayed the response. The red trace is the observed current amplified by about 5X. The green trace at the bottom is the harvest pulse. In this case it is about 3 us long since this is about as fast as my slow MOSFETS can go. As you can see a large ringing effects is noticed. The frequency of this decaying burst is about 166 kHz. I really doubt that the core could respond that fast - if at all. This means that the ring must be coming from the current probe or the transformer winding.
The yellow trace is the primary current.
Is this real or a measurement artifact? If it is an artifact then how do I get rid of it?
I have set my harvest pulse to take place when the secondary was at peak current, however the $5 HF DVM goes to almost zero as I approach the peak. Perhaps because more AC is being produced rather than DC.
Also it appears that I can afford those IRFPG260n MOSFEt'S you recommended since they go for about $1.50 each in lots of 20 on eBay with free shipping. I have a batch of them coming in next Monday.
Thanks in advance for the advise.
Spokane1
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Well.... hmmm.
Now I'm confused. In previous posts you've said that the harvest pulse is turning the mosfets _off_ for a very brief time (see the diagram attached below) but now your mosfet Gate trace (CH4) looks like it's going HIGH and turning the mosfets _on_ for a very brief time and leaving them off for the remainder of the cycle.
So is the substantial current you are reading here, actually going through the mosfet body diode? What am I missing here?
What is that 50R, 10W load resistor? Is it a wirewound resistor?
Yes, I'll bet that ringing you are seeing is a "real artifact" in the sense that it is really happening but is something you don't want happening and may be caused by stray inductances due to wiring length or maybe the inductance of that load resistor.
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Well.... hmmm.
Now I'm confused. In previous posts you've said that the harvest pulse is turning the mosfets _off_ for a very brief time (see the diagram attached below) but now your mosfet Gate trace (CH4) looks like it's going HIGH and turning the mosfets _on_ for a very brief time and leaving them off for the remainder of the cycle.
So is the substantial current you are reading here, actually going through the mosfet body diode? What am I missing here?
What is that 50R, 10W load resistor? Is it a wirewound resistor?
Yes, I'll bet that ringing you are seeing is a "real artifact" in the sense that it is really happening but is something you don't want happening and may be caused by stray inductances due to wiring length or maybe the inductance of that load resistor.
Dear TK,
I have to check my wiring again. My intent was to have the MOSFET's on 99% of the time and then apply a short pulse to open them. But as you have noticed my pulse logic appears reversed. I even connected the gate drive logic to the complement output of the last timer to achieve this. I shall get right on this and see what is happening.
The load resistor is 2" long and about 0.250" in diameter. It is dipped in a brown ceramic like substance. It could be a carbon resistor, but it just as well could be something else. Would my new DE 5000 LCR Meter determine how much inductance we have here. Certainly worth a try. I shall also get a photo. Most all the power resistors I have above 5 Watts are the classical wire wound type. I understand that even the aluminum ribbed Gold ones are actually of the wire wound variety.
When my computer gets back from the evacuation exercise (The wife took off with it in her van) I shall do some simulations with added inductance across the back end storage capacitor.
I really doubt that I have enough bias magnets to saturate that huge iron core so I would suspect that this apparatus is still operating in classical mode, which is fine for now. I should probably look into making a purchase of some neo magnets.
If there is enough inductance to form a parallel tank circuit with the back end storage capacitor, then that would imply that those larges currents are actually oscillating around the loop as the Current Transformer reports. I wonder how this is possible since that HF current (166 KHz) would have to flow through one winding. I would think that there would be a lot of attenuation there. I suppose that one winding could be in some kind of brief oscillation and not really impact the slower steady state of the core's magnetic flux very much.
Thanks for taking a look at this. I'm sure this issue will be one of many as we dig deeper.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
That last scope shot was suffering from a misallocated ground reference connection (i.e. I plugged it into the wrong hole). The circuit was working properly but the scope was reading the wrong logic signal. The attached photo is what the last one should have looked like.
I adjusted the timing of the harvest pulse to a different part of the secondary current trace. In the second photo you can see the harvest pulse, but there is no impact to the secondary current. If there were some kind of parasitic resonance then I would think that I should get that ring no matter where the pulse took place, but I'm not sure of that.
The last photo is the load resistor in the circuit.
The next photo is the LCR meter measuring the resistance.
The next photo is the LCR meter reading the inductance of the resistor at 3.7 uH. I haven't calculated what kind of resonate frequency takes place between a parallel 3.7 uH and a 1500 uF filter capacitor.
Perhaps this information will help determine what is going on.
Spokane
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@Spokane1:
OK, thanks for the information. Your resistor is definitely a wirewound one with substantial inductance, but running the R and C values through my favorite resonant frequency calculator gives a frequency of about 2.1 kHz, much too low to explain the ringing you are seeing.
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm
Moving the harvest pulse as you have shown to a point near the zero-crossing produces much less ringing, since there isn't much current being interrupted. Plus, you've changed the vertical scale from 50 mV/div in the ringing shot, to 100 mV/div in the non-ringing shot, so any ringing would show up correspondingly smaller anyhow.
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Dear TK,
After I replace some chips in my logic controller (that Smoke thing again) I shall explore making other measurements around the secondary and see what else is going on in the neighborhood.
I'm going to have to write up something to explain to people that we are working with two topologies here:
1. The Simplified single switch approach that I have been exploring because of its cost advantage.
2. The full Bridge and two logic signal approach that partzman is developing all those detailed simulations from.
Each approach serves its own purpose, but it is important that people new to this thread realize the difference.
Spokane1
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Dear TK,
Maybe I will not be swapping out my synchronous diode MOSFETS for the 200 Vdds models you recommended. Take a look at the Drain to Source voltage spike that is developed when the backend FETS turn off for 3 us. That spike is 575 Volts high, no wonder Graham uses the expensive 1.2 kV devices.
Normally I would be considering snubbing networks, MOV's, Zener Diodes, or added capacitance, but at this part of the circuit I fear that any of this could potentially diminish the OU effect we are looking for.
Do you happen to have a part recommendation that can handle these kinds of sharp voltage pulses? I suppose the price goes up with the Vdds rating.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Here is one amateur's attempt at measuring the currents that are circulating around the synchronous diode. I'm sure that the well funded folks would be using three hall effect probes (at $1,500 to $3,000 each). In this approach I'm using three surplus current transformers that I got from eBay for $40 each. I figure the five (5) turns of wire through each probe adds some shunt inductance that is very small when compared to the 39 mH of the conversion transformer (mockup) winding.
What this experiment tells me is that I don't have any current circulating around one loop - the yellow trace. From the simulations I should have equal currents in each loop - less the 166 kHz burst, and that is not happening here.
Something to work on this weekend.
Spokane1
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Are all three of the Pearsons on the secondary the same model 6164 with 0.05V/A sensitivity? Is the associated mosfet still working? The driver chip still working?
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Are all three of the Pearsons on the secondary the same model 6164 with 0.05V/A sensitivity? Is the associated mosfet still working? The driver chip still working?
Dear TK,
I believe that all the Pearson current probes are from the same manufacturing lot. Some one in the distant past scored a large lot of them (about a 100 or so) and was selling them at fire sale prices. I made a "Best Offer" and got lucky when I bought three of them.
I checked the Drain to Source voltage of both synchronous diode FET's and both reported the same 575V pulse, so it appears to me that the FET might be working, but I probably need to disconnect them and test them separately. I might have a bad (or improper) transformer connection as well.
This issue will keep me busy this weekend.
Thanks for the comments.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Here are two scope shots contrasting opposed secondary's vs. aiding secondary's. The aiding topology results in greater current swings while the opposing approach reduces current swings. In each case the timing of the harvest pulse has to be adjusted since the peak currents take place at different times during the base period. By manually "tuning" the timing for maximum output the aiding connection will yield a 2 Watt output while the opposing output can only generate about 200 milliwatts at its maximum adjustment.
Please Understand that this is using a single front end switch (The simplified approach). If a full four switch H-Bridge were used then the results could be entirely different.
This exercise verifies that the three secondary currents can be observed. The impact of the current transformers on the circuit seem minimal with only 0.8 uH added on each transformer lead.
At this stage of exploration this mockup circuit is not even a very good DC-DC converter with 12 Watts in and only 2 Watts out for a COP of about 0.164.
The synchronous diode MOSFET Drain to Source voltage between the two approaches changes drastically. The third scope photo compares the two responses. The red trace is with the two secondary's opposing and it appears to suppress the voltage drop across the MOSFET's. The pink trace shows the same measurement with the secondary's aiding. Here the voltage drop is in excess of 250 Volts. This means that I will not be able to employ the more efficient 200V Vdds devices at this time. However I was able to swap out the input switch with the new device and got a 20% increase in output probably due to the lower Rds resistance.
First Photo - Aiding secondary's with harvest pulse timing in green at the bottom - blue trace is current through backend storage capacitor.
Second Photo - Opposing secondary's
Third Photo - Vds voltage rise during the MOSFET "off" time
Spokane1
Last Friday's scope trace was missing the yellow information due to a connection to the wrong tap.
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Hi Mark,
Well you have your circuit working perfectly! 2 watts out, additive, 200 mw out, opposing. I wonder what the output is with no harvest pulse, that is let the addition of the output pulses simply integrate into the output filter cap. This would show if the harvest pulse is adding to the mix! It looks just like what a normal transformer would do under these conditions. I'm way behind you in building, testing, etc. Obviously we all are missing something here. I would expect under normal conditions (without the implosion effect), we could get at least 70-80% output. Have you considered looking at the output with only a capacitance that would resonate the output coils and see what the actual waveform is without the heavy integration. Perhaps this would also show if rectification of the ringing with the harvest pulse is occuring. I'm sure all these questions are already on your mind.
Thanks again for all the prodigious work you have done.
BTW, my K4ZEP email was hacked this weekend and everyone in all my saved list was sent an email with a funky message.
I fixed the problem (new 16 bit random generated password and 2nd level notification of susp. activity.) It might slow the @@$@$ holes down that do this, I don't know.
Ben K4ZEP
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Dear All,
The value of the final load resistor has a large impact on the performance of this kind of circuit.
I started with a 50 Ohm 10 Watt resistor with an inductance of 3.4 uH. The performance was a COP of 0.167
I explored different values and the best one was a 10 Ohm power resistor with an inductance of .8 uH which raised the COP up to 0.274. That is a 60% improvement over the last reading.
This circuit appears to function best with the proper matching load, much like other AC circuits.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
The value of the final load resistor has a large impact on the performance of this kind of circuit
....
Spokane1
Hello Spokane1
Why don´t use several parallel HEXFETs in linear mode as variable load resistor from couple of watts till some 200....300W ?
Thanks for interesting topic. Good luck !! :)
Enjoykin
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Hello Spokane1
Why don´t use several parallel HEXFETs in linear mode as variable load resistor from couple of watts till some 200....300W ?
Thanks for interesting topic. Good luck !! :)
Enjoykin
Dear Enjoykin,
A solid state variable resistor like you describe is certaily a viable option, but probably excessive in this appliction for the moment. I would jup for joy if I got 10 Watts of Output. I suspect that 20 Watts is probably the upper limit on this topology.
As it is I have a nice selection of classical low resistance rehostats on hand at the right price to carry on these preliminary experiments. Now if the power level gets beyond 20 Watts then a solution like what you recommend would be in order.
Spokane1
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Dear Spokane1
Thank you.!
I am waiting your further research.
Best wishes
Enjoykin
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Ok, so, Scientifically, what do we know.
1: Input Winding appears to be 10, 12, 10, 12, 10, 12, possibly only 6 layers, of Litz Wire, about AWG 2 (6.54304 mm) @ approx 0.512664 Ohms per KM.
2: Output Coils consist of 4 Strands of Litz wire, each wound side by side, in a step winding configuration, Almost Bank Winding. Each set of winding's is divided into two parts. Each set of windings appear to be wound CW/CCW relative to the Core.
3: Output is DC, Rectified, via a circuit arrangement of possible 30 odd components.
4: Pulsed DC is the Input. As Reiyuki points out, about 33% 33% 33%
5: Permanent Magnets are arranged on the Device, thought to Bias, or partially saturate at least one half of the U Cores used.
6: U Cores are a Ferrite Material, apparently each has a different value of Permeability. No specifics that I know about have been shared as yet. (The below product guide, has an AL range from: 2300 to: 8700 (nH measured in combination with another ungapped core half))
7: U Core appears to be approximately square, a product selection guide can be found here: Ferroxcube (http://www.ferroxcube.com/FerroxcubeCorporateReception/datasheet/FXC_PSG_2013.pdf), the largest U Core in this document is in the Picture below: (Which is about right, I have some magnets the same here (25 x 40 x 10) and they would fit about the same on the Core)
Chris Sykes
hyiq.org
Chris if your data are truth i can conclude only one thing. This device work on principles of parametric Ferro-Resonance in high flux ferrites.
Do you have valid frequency and timings of operation ??
PS: I think answer for existing phenomenon is here in this old Russian scientist´s book about Ferosondes.
The name of important topic is: "Еmployment of parametric resonance to increasing sensitivity of ferrosondes", with tuning procedures at end.
ps1: Tunning procedure obligatory need spectrum analyser // high bandwith // plus oscillograph.
ps2: Gunderson's huge ferrite core with help of strong permanent magnets can generate a lot of output power. At first estimation as far as 50 kWatt output but maybe a lot of more. Remember Tesla's car "Pierce Silver Arrow", with 3 big ferrite rods.
Enjoykin2017
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Anyone translate that article?
Ben
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Anyone translate that article?
Ben
Stivep aka Wesley - ex NASA scientist. He perfectly know Russian languge, talking Russian very well and already have made a working 1kW OU device in his house in NY. He know how to meassure and tune parametric resonance and already have built high-end NASA lab in his home. Everything depend of his will (read @money@).
his channel on trube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8uUrjnW5w0
key words: Wesley's yoke tuning (high flux ferrite tuning) , Lithuania OU Experiment, Wesley's Theory, Wesley's schematic,Wesley's HV driver,Wesley's Spark Gap tubes evaluation, Wesley's first light of hope ( hope for whom ?) .... etc, etc.
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Will be doing an update here later
thx
Chet K
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Some Efforts at OUR forum
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3319.msg57290;topicseen#msg57290
PartZman has been having issues with his newer Tektronix MDO3034 with TPP0500B probes, he suspects the main board may be the culprit and is awaiting feedback from techtronix , so his findings have been skewed by this faulty equipment problem and are not reliable at this time.
also itsu has been running some tests here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlRo3ILTGko&feature=youtu.be
and I see Spokane1 has updated over here,[he is having computer issues ATM ]
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20546-magnetic-implosion-transformer-replication-3.html
respectfully
Chet K
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Dear TK,
The current probe that Graham used during the presentation to evaluate the input power was a Tektronix TCP 202 DC to RF probe with a 17 ns skew time. This transmission delay time is suppose to match the delay time charicteristics of the differnential voltage probe he was using at the same time.
Graham maintains that the listed skew time is not constant and changes with frequency. He developed a calibration chart for his probes, but these are only good at a single frequency. He said it would be nice to implement hardware that would dissassemble complex wave forms into their spectral content, adjust their magmitude mathmatically with a processor and then recombine them back into a corrected signal.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Here are some additional photos of Graham's H-Bridge that was used at the presentation.
Some additional notes:
The custom power transformer is driven directly from the IXD driver chip with no MOSFET employed.
The small transistors (8 each) seen on the center power supply board are emitter followlers.
The commercial Half Bridge circuit (Blue sub-circuit board SOIC-16) has been modified with the addition of surface mount capacitors to provide the +20 and -5 gate switching voltages.
The input voltage to the H-Bridge was 12 VDC provided from a 300 mW (for all the logice and gates) wall wart.
Enjoy
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Dear All,
Does anybody out there have any knowlege of this torroid winder machine a Jovil JV150. According to Goggle it is designed to wind small torroids up to 8 mm in diameter (smaller than an dime) with up to 9" of three conductor wire.
This machine has been donated to Graham to promote the construction of his next generation of driver power supplies for the SiC MOSFETS, however a manual was not to be found on a simple Goggle search.
If this machine can be made operational it may really speed up availability of the high speed driver circuits that are used in the Implosion Transformer Device.
Spokane1
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Here is a link to the company support site. I didn't see a manual but there is a listing with email address and phone number for a dealer in the U.S.
http://www.jovil.net/support (http://www.jovil.net/support)
Here is a video showing a different model in operation. Maybe it will help in figuring out how to use the one he has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7wjcTNcnM
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Here is a link to the company support site. I didn't see a manual but there is a listing with email address and phone number for a dealer in the U.S.
http://www.jovil.net/support (http://www.jovil.net/support)
Dear citfta,
Thanks for the tip. That was going to be the next step, but it appears that the original US company has been bought out by a Chinese corporation. It might be really tough getting documentation for a discontinued model.
Spokane1
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it appears that the original US company has been bought out by a Chinese corporation.
I have bigger models of Jovil machines but not the one in the photo.
I remember that before being called 'Jovil" that company went by a different name: "Universal".
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If this machine can be made operational it may really speed up availability of the high speed driver circuits that are used in the Implosion Transformer Device.
BTW: I still have trepidations, that the excess energy flows from these "high speed drivers" to the secondary circuit.
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BTW: I still have trepidations, that the excess energy flows from these "high speed drivers" to the secondary circuit.
Dear verpies,
That MOSFET gate leakage issue is going to constantly haunt this kind of research. I did learn that the power supply that was used to drive all the MOSFETS and the logic came from a 12 VDC 300 mA wall wart. If that power source were driven balls to the wall then we are talking about a maximum of 3.6 Watts (.3 x 12) of potential unaccounted gate leakage power. If we assume that all of it ended up in the output measurements then we still have 5.9 Watts of OU coming from somewhere (9.5 - 3.6).
Graham said that he did some preliminary measurements, that he did not mention during the presnetation due to time constraints, of the actual amount of power overhead used in the logic and drivers. He said it came to 1.2 Watts from his approach. I don't know how he determined that, but it has to be pretty close.
Thanks for the comments on the winding machine that you have experiance with.
Spokane1
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I have bigger models of Jovil machines but not the one in the photo.
I remember that before being called 'Jovil" that company went by a different name: "Universal".
Dear verpies,
According to the company web site Jovil and Universal merged 15 years ago. I'm not sure what the relationship is with the new Chinese company.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Does anybody out there have any knowlege of this torroid winder machine a Jovil JV150. According to Goggle it is designed to wind small torroids up to 8 mm in diameter (smaller than an dime) with up to 9" of three conductor wire.
This machine has been donated to Graham to promote the construction of his next generation of driver power supplies for the SiC MOSFETS, however a manual was not to be found on a simple Goggle search.
If this machine can be made operational it may really speed up availability of the high speed driver circuits that are used in the Implosion Transformer Device.
Spokane1
HI Spokane
What going on in states - in sensce of your ITD ?
Well i have done some search at fastest i-net search-index-machine Nigma.ru and found Service Reference Mannual for very similar old vintage toroid winder Jovil-LCM. I think in your winder is the same JV-57 four preset counter as in LCM. Here you will find programming instuctions and winding heads adjustments with factory sketches. Also elctectrical schemati so you can fix it. If this truth what Jovil said « Absolutely simple to run (operator can be trained in minutes) » , than count your problem is solved.
ftp://203.125.98.70/Catalog/Jovil/
reg.
Enjoykin
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HI Spokane
What going on in states - in sensce of your ITD ?
Well i have done some search at fastest i-net search-index-machine Nigma.ru and found Service Reference Mannual for very similar old vintage toroid winder Jovil-LCM. I think in your winder is the same JV-57 four preset counter as in LCM. Here you will find programming instuctions and winding heads adjustments with factory sketches. Also elctectrical schemati so you can fix it. If this truth what Jovil said « Absolutely simple to run (operator can be trained in minutes) » , than count your problem is solved.
ftp://203.125.98.70/Catalog/Jovil/
reg.
Enjoykin
Dear Enjoykin,
I looked at all those documents and they are for a shuttle type machine where the wire is wound upon a spool and then rewond on the core. The Jovil 150 machine is a Shuttle-less device that operates on a different principle. To bad, becasue the documents you found would have been great if they were for the right machine.
Thanks for the research attempt.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Here is a simple variation to the logic circuit to generate the Phase B signal for the H-Bridge.
Spokane1
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Dear All,
Here is a simple variation to the logic circuit to generate the Phase B signal for the H-Bridge.
Spokane1
Perfect!
Ben
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Cyril Smith [Member Smudge] has put together a PDF for discussion and investigation .
also being discussed here.
http://overunity.com/16895/the-musings-of-smudge-cyril-smith/msg493017/#msg493017
and proper paths towards experiments are also being looked at here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3345.0
respectfully
Chet K
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To Graham Gunderson team !!
key word: Magneto-Kinetic reconnection !!
If it act in plasma why not in ferrites ?
Reg.
Enjoykin
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Here is the logic that combines the H-Bridge Logic with the Sync-Rectifier Logic
Spokane1
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snip...
If it act in plasma why not in ferrites ?
snip...
Probably because in plasma, both the positive AND negative ions are able to move about freely in response to a magnetic or electric field, while in ferrite, only the outer valence electrons of each atom may (or may not) move in response to the presence of a field.
Cheers
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Plasma= Ionengas
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/green-ferrite-solar-cell-japan-20110920/#.WArq9SmbJZ4 (http://www.greenoptimistic.com/green-ferrite-solar-cell-japan-20110920/#.WArq9SmbJZ4)
more about plasm(a)onics devices:
https://www.google.pt/search?q=green+ferrite+solar+cell&client=opera&hs=bJq&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-tJK6ye3PAhVEShQKHRm5D18QsAQIOQ&biw=1366&bih=668 (https://www.google.pt/search?q=green+ferrite+solar+cell&client=opera&hs=bJq&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-tJK6ye3PAhVEShQKHRm5D18QsAQIOQ&biw=1366&bih=668)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=5&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20081218&CC=WO&NR=2008154362A2&KC=A2
magnetocaloric
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So what happened to this device?
Gate leakage ?
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last I heard it was put away ...on a shelf.. do to frustration of not enuff time and resources to figure it out
I believe the ultimate test of looping is elusive and still must be a burning issue ,But Graham truly believes he is on to something .
meanwhile he works on another project with a friend ?
something Solar I believe ?
respectfully
Chet K
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...any news on this?
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Well
Graham has a new baby boy in the world ...so too busy to pester ATM
maybe in a month or so when things calm down.
far as I'm told not much has changed since last "Sitting on the shelf"
If Mark doesn't post here next month I'll update then.
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Well?
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Well, see photo, "green ferrites" are on the market. :) ;)
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Graham is very busy with life ATM another baby and hopefully all the
joy that brings .
No news on the device ..
two young children will not leave much "hobby" time .
I must add, IMO there is no greater stimulus in a persons life to continue this research ...than wanting the best for this next generation and the future.
wishing him the best
Chet K
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did any1 replicate this ???
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update on open sourcing
https://overunity.com/18346/graham-gunderson-open-sourcing/new/#new (https://overunity.com/18346/graham-gunderson-open-sourcing/new/#new)
much Gratitude to Graham ,the world needs more like him !
respectfully Chet K