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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson's Energy conference presentation Most impressive and mysterious  (Read 109517 times)

Offline Reiyuki

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@MH:     While I disagree with your analysis, we can take this one elsewhere.  Not gonna make this yet another angry, long-winded 100 page derail thread.  Ya almost hooked me.. ::)


@Everyone:

To summarize what was presented, we effectively have a uniquely built and driven transformer circuit, with a primary and secondary.
  (Primary side)
 * Primary is a high-voltage, high-efficiency tank circuit, driven by an H bridge.
 * Primary is contained within a 'flux loop' composed of barium ferrite ceramic magnets.
 * The flux loop magnets have gaps where they meet the ferrite primary.
 * Primary's position on B-H curve is important.
 * Primary is driven near:   33% push, 33% pull, 33% rest.

  (Secondary side)
 * Low permeability ferrite secondary.
 * Secondary is wound to minimize capacitance.  "Gram said that by adding a 100 pf Silver-Mica capacitor between the Source and Drain of one of the Back End FETS would completely destroy the OU effect."
 * Secondary feeds thru a pair of HV SiC MOSFETS to a large capacitor bank akin to a Synchronous Rectification circuit.
 * The FET circuit is briefly interrupted, causing a voltage spike on the secondary coil.  This interrupt lasts until this voltage spike peaks, 20nS-1uS later at as high a voltage as the FETs will allow (1.2kv for the SiC FETs used)
 * This interrupt occurs midway between the Push and Pull portion of the primary (peak flux, minimum voltage).


 (Control/etc)
 * Control circuit is a hex inverter 'ring' circuit, with variable timing at each stage.
 * Both coils are wound w/ Litz wire.
 * COP is variable depending on when the interrupt occurs.  Timing earlier results in higher COP but lower secondary output.
 * The interrupted load spike is a critical to the effect


All photos and notes I have are available here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0_1dJJ_ezEmSzZMRmxNSFkwZmc

Anyone with questions, comments, or analysis pertaining to Gunderson's presentation, I'm happy to help :)    Spokane1's had some direct conversations with Graham lately, so he's probably a very useful source as well.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Reiyuki

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Let the performance continue, I am more than happy to watch.

Fair enough, sir, we'll leave it at that and see who hits the finish line first ;D .

Offline ramset

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I have no idea what you are implying here Milehigh
I can't read it....
The good news is this thread will be cleaned up and get back on track hopefully
With some moderation very shortly

Another thread can be started for character assasinations , Slander libel inuendos and lawyers and such..
Hopefully all parties making such claims are prepared for such a commitment .

End of story







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Offline Spokane1

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Dear Reiyuki,

Let us discuss the logic board for a few days and maybe I can draft something up and figure out what is going on.

There are only 8 IC's, one Transistor, and a Voltage Regulator. Six of the IC's are the 74HC123 one shot timers in two groups. There is a partially used 74AC14. The last 8-pin DIP I can't make out, but it seems to be heavily utilized. It is on the extreme left hand side of the board.

I'm not sure where the board gets it's power or how many rails (different voltages) are being used (Probably only one). It is easy to see the data cables that go to the H-Bridge and the Backend rectifier. Determining which pins do what may take some time. Setup boards like this sometimes have their own power supplies, but this one has the terminals removed. which makes me suspect that the power supply is someplace else. For the load involved probably 300 mA at 5 volts would be more than plenty.

Graham said that only 25% of the components present were actually being used. The Ring Timer in the lower right corner seems to be connected at only one location. This sub circuit has six trim pots.  The other Ring timer in the upper left corner seems to be the work horse, but it doesn't have any trim pots. To me this implies that the timing is fixed rather that variable.

I'm going to have to put in an order for IC's to DigiKey and I would like to take the best shot at getting the right parts.

I have higher resolution photos of the ones that are attached.

Spokane1

Offline TinselKoala

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Being discussed here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson.html


there was some mention of a Mcfree MO ...but all is speculative ATM ,
and just to save the ink

No I don't think he is running his house on it "yet" ,but all will be open sourced !!


respectfully
Chet K

All will be open sourced! For a small fee of only two million dollars !!!

http://www.energeticforum.com/290549-post32.html

1. Replicate if you want to but it's a moving target. No point in drafting schematics, since everything will be changed.
2. When he gets around to it....
3. Won't answer "a lot of technical questions" or "teach advanced electronics" -- but some areas of "it" are advanced...
4. No further demos until he can "close the loop" --- so don't hold your breath.
5. He doesn't know why his system works. But has some interesting measurement observations.... which will be shared "later".
6. Wants to start selling stuff for "general OU work".  Also wants to advance his technical interest... in music.
7. The technology is FOR SALE.  Only two million dollars gets the whole bundle, including 40 hours of "training". Instrumentation not included.

Welcome to the new definition of "Open Source", only 2 million dollars ! And overunity requires not only an apparatus, but also "training".  Training on how to get your own instruments to report overunity results, maybe? Training ... from someone who doesn't know why his system works? That gets a ROFL for sure.

 

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Offline Spokane1

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All will be open sourced! For a small fee of only two million dollars !!


Welcome to the new definition of "Open Source", only 2 million dollars ! And overunity requires not only an apparatus, but also "training".  Training on how to get your own instruments to report overunity results, maybe? Training ... from someone who doesn't know why his system works? That gets a ROFL for sure.

Dear TinselKoala,

Your assessment is accurate. Graham did open source the technology for the duration of the conference. Then he got home and faced his financial situation, then recalled all the crap he received last year for his 1.02 OU presentation. So he changed his mind and decided he was going to make a buck with his new breakthrough and tell his landlord where to park it.

Saving the World may be a noble quest, but it doesn't pay the rent, feed the two young sons, or pay the tax man.

I suppose you have a legitimate argument, but this is the way it is going to be. Graham is not going to be joining any of these discussions or providing additional documentation.

We have about 70 photos, 10 pages of simple notes, some verbal commentary and a 1 hour lecture to come. This may or may not be enough material to do a functional reproduction, but it is a heck of a lot more than other OU technologies that have come and gone.

I have faith in Graham's work and have no doubt that it is worth the cost just to attempt to understand the principles demonstrated with this kind of apparatus.

You have a right to feel disappointed, and I don't blame you. I suppose others may feel the same way about the way things have turned out after a week.

I'm going to continue on. Check in now and then and see how things are going.

Spokane1




Offline TinselKoala

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All right, Spokane1, that is an answer.

Now that you are someone who seems to be familiar enough with Gunderson's work to talk about it, maybe you can also answer the question I asked earlier.

How is it that a system that draws "0.000 Watts" input, and produces some high COP value -- "infinity, but let's say around 50", still needs to be connected to its power supply in order to work?

Quote
Both sets of instruments agreed on the values being measured. From the warm up moment the unit started at 1.53 watts in and 9.43 watts out or a initial COP of 6.16. The load was a 12V automotive lamp that operated during the entire presentation. As time went on the COP improved an hour later the input wattage was down to zero (with four places of accuracy) with the output still at 9.5. That is a COP of infinity, but lets say around 50. I was in the front row to observe this. Graham reported that he has observed the input value go negative like -.25 watts in.

Do you believe these measurements and claims are accurate? If so, why can't the system simply be disconnected from the power supply?


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Offline tinman

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All right, Spokane1, that is an answer.

Now that you are someone who seems to be familiar enough with Gunderson's work to talk about it, maybe you can also answer the question I asked earlier.

How is it that a system that draws "0.000 Watts" input, and produces some high COP value -- "infinity, but let's say around 50", still needs to be connected to its power supply in order to work?

Do you believe these measurements and claims are accurate? If so, why can't the system simply be disconnected from the power supply?

Perhaps it works like the human muscle,where it needs a signal of minute power,to create an action that produces watts of energy :o -as in,our brain sends tiny electrical impulses to the muscles,and the muscles contract,providing far more energy output than the signal that triggered the action.
So maybe the bulk of the energy is stored within the transformer it self,and only needs a small electrical signal from the mains to trigger the reaction?.

How ever,reading the information MH posted about GG's past,i doubt that anything will become of it,and it is as you stated--measurement error.
The  !for sale for 2 million dollars! seem to appear just at the right time ::)


Brad

Offline poynt99

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Someone mentioned that not only has Gunderson measured 0W input, but at times the input power went negative. What immediately pops into my mind is that if he was measuring the input power properly to begin with with all probe polarities correct, the input power measurement should be negative anyway.

Would someone in-the-know be so kind as to draw out a simple block diagram of the input source, device, and output load, along with the measurement probe positions? If no one knows, perhaps Graham himself would be open to providing such a diagram (it wouldn't give away any secrets so why not?)?

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Offline k4zep

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I've been playing with this a little and it looks like I can get a similar wave form with just using 36vdc chopped by a mosfet switch around 21.7kHz with a 33% duty cycle to a primary coil which has a 0.002uf capacitor connected in parallel tuned to resonance (21.7kHz).


Yellow is a x100 Voltage probe across primary coil, Blue is a Tektronic P6021 current probe on negative of primary coil, Red is the product (math) of V x I and Purple is the DC output of the secondary (after FWBR to a 27,000uf cap with 20 Ohm load).


Luc

Good morning Gotoluc,

Going to try this again, first post never showed up. Could you post a picture of the setup that made this waveforms.
Your description as to how it works and built is easy to understand.  Any description
of the exact construction of the coils/core/magnet assembly would really help.  Your device
is electrically so much simpler that Gundersons and the aux. cicuit to harvest the output pulse during the rest would be just as simple.
This is going to be my first try at replicating your circuit..

Respectfully

Ben K4ZEP

Offline Spokane1

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All right, Spokane1, that is an answer.

Now that you are someone who seems to be familiar enough with Gunderson's work to talk about it, maybe you can also answer the question I asked earlier.

How is it that a system that draws "0.000 Watts" input, and produces some high COP value -- "infinity, but let's say around 50", still needs to be connected to its power supply in order to work?

Do you believe these measurements and claims are accurate? If so, why can't the system simply be disconnected from the power supply?

Dear TinselKoala,

Again some good points to consider.

First off when this technology was presented at the conference it was only 3 weeks old. Graham has a full time day job and was in a last minute rush to consolidate his work for the presentation. There wasn't time to close the loop and risk messing up the whole process.  However, this is where he is heading now in order to greatly reduce the in-out instrument hassle.

This is going to take some time and engineering. Consider that the output is about 12 VDC while the input is 200 - 230 VDC.  He is going to have to construct a 12 to 230 volt DC to DC converter, most likely a design that has the highest efficiency possible. He is then going to have to develop a feedback regulation system that will input just the right amount of power to the input while sending the resulting to some storage device. Try doing that in a weekend. Custom switch mode power supplies require custom wound transformers. He is going to have to wait for next months pay check (or maybe a couple of months) before he has the money to send away for the parts.

How does the machine draw 0.000 Watts yet still need to be connected to the power supply?  Well, that is what the instrument reported and that is how the equipment was working at the moment - it was not a continuous condition. A few seconds later it probably needed a few more mill watts. If that bit of energy wasn't there I suppose the process would quickly die.

It took an hour for the machine to get to that point. I watched it during the presentation. It started at 1.53 watts in and slowly dropped to zero. This was probably the critical measurement since the output was a resistive incandescent lamp that maintained it brightness throughout the discussion. What the machine would do over a 24 hour period would be interesting to analyze.

Graham has no idea why his machine is doing what it is doing. He was planning on a COP of 1.05 maybe 1.06. He got 5  to 50 after some tuning. That response kind of changes the thought paradigm.

Graham is not 100% convinced that he has a genuine OU device. There still maybe some parasitic fluke that would cause two different instrument systems to report the same numbers continuously for an hour. - I don't think so... or at least enough to want to dig into this further.

Instrument Error:

How are you going to measure the performance of your devices? (assuming you are exploring actual construction). Graham had about $10,000 worth of instrumentation (eBay used prices) that were originally bought for around $50,000. He has maintained and calibrated these instruments since 2000. These are the kind of tools that one needs to observe COP's in the 1.02 range. I don't know about you but this class of accuracy is beyond my pocket book.

If Graham were to take his machine to a standards lab or university they would use the same kinds of equipment - maybe newer, depending upon how well the department was funded. If and when some serious customer comes along they will probably bring the same kinds of tools. or they will use Grahams instruments and be right back where things were at the conference.  How accurate is a used $1,000 power analyzer? A heck of a lot more accurate than my $5.00 Harbor Freight DVM or even my Fluke 87. Was that Power Analyzer working properly at the time. Well, if it wasn't the $3,000 (used price) Tektronix scope would have reported the difference - and the numbers agreed to two places of accuracy.

I'm convinced and I'm probably biased due to my long time association with Graham. I can only report what I witnessed. You are most welcome to take my testimony and use it how you may.

Spokane1

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Offline minnie

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   From what I see Tinsel's point is that if there is zero input
   IT WOULD NOT NEED TO BE LOOPED!
   If it stops when input power is pulled it was obviously
   DRAWING POWER.
         JOHN.




Offline Spokane1

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   From what I see Tinsel's point is that if there is zero input
   IT WOULD NOT NEED TO BE LOOPED!
   If it stops when input power is pulled it was obviously
   DRAWING POWER.
         JOHN.

Dear John,

Yes that would appear to be so, however this was for a short moment not a continuous process. This process drifts. In the time frame observed it was drifting down. IF the stability of the system were rugged enough you probably could shut off the 220 VDC power supply and get 10 Watts continuous. But you are still are going to need some amount of initial excitation energy and some time to get it into that condition. IF the power requirements were drifting down I suppose that in time they would drift back up again and need a little extra juice to continue the process.

This is why closing the loop looks promising.

I don't know if Graham had the time to explore this possibility prior to the convention, probably not.

Spokane1

Offline Spokane1

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Someone mentioned that not only has Gunderson measured 0W input, but at times the input power went negative. What immediately pops into my mind is that if he was measuring the input power properly to begin with with all probe polarities correct, the input power measurement should be negative anyway.

Would someone in-the-know be so kind as to draw out a simple block diagram of the input source, device, and output load, along with the measurement probe positions? If no one knows, perhaps Graham himself would be open to providing such a diagram (it wouldn't give away any secrets so why not?)?

Dear poynt99,

Yes, an updated block diagram would be nice to pass around. I shall see if I can come up with something this week end. Until then the attached photo should help with your initial questions.

The input power analyzer is on the right and the output power analyzer is on the left. The Tektronix scope is the box that Graham has his hand on.

You can see where the input scope current probe connects to the input to the conversion transformer (white wire). You can also see the red voltage probe. This is a floating differential probe with a CMR up to 1300 volts.

The input power analyzer is connected via the red and violet conductors. I'm not exactly sure where they connect.

You can probably see where the output analyzer is connected.

The last photo shows the scope output connections.

I hope this helps.

Spokane1

Offline poynt99

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Thank you, but it doesn't really help me much. I'd rather not speculate.

The pictures almost raise more questions than they answer; for example, why are there two scope probes on the output circuit side? Is he doing a differential voltage measurement and using A-B math on the scope?

I would suggest if you do come up with a diagram, post it here and also send it to Graham for his review and approval. If he gives it a thumbs up, then at least we have a starting point.

At the moment, I have no idea what the input source is even.

 

OneLink