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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson's Energy conference presentation Most impressive and mysterious  (Read 117308 times)

Offline poynt99

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I agree. If the output impedance of the H-bridge is anything other than very low or very high at any point during the cycle, then it would be considered part of the device. Otherwise, it is simply a powerful function generator supplying juice to GG's transformer, and should be treated as such.

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Offline poynt99

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Exactly. The "H-bridge" in Gunderson's device is not, and cannot be treated as, any kind of "normal" or bench-top power supply (referring here to TinMan's post.)
I never said it was a normal power supply, I said it was a power supply with a specific wave form. Essentially a high voltage, wave-form-specific FG.

Quote
It is an integral part of the device and the claim of "ou" would never even get out of the starting gate without it.
Ok, answer this question; Given a device that required a square wave output from a FG to measure Pout>Pin, but measures Pout<Pin when the wave form is changed to sine, is the wave form critical to the device achieving OU, or is it the FG itself?

Offline ramset

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Sorry I started this post before you posted
takes a long time for me to draft even a simple post and I Did not mean to interrupt the discussion
here is a valid comment from post #143 by member Spokane1
Snip"
 a well regulated power supply would work just as well. If this technology is viable then we might need an extra 25% more input power. That would raise the measured input power from 1.53 watts to 1.91 watts . That would lower the COP from 6.12 to 5.07 and address all your measurement concerns (I think). This assumes that the output power can remain at 10 watts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
respectfully
Chet K


                                                                                           .

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Offline Spokane1

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Dear All,

Here is my perception of how the circuit is wired and one possible implementation of an attempted simulation. I've only been into this a few hours. Also attached are some response traces to single and double current pulses.

Spokane1

Offline lancaIV

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http://patents.justia.com/patent/5130608
In one example, the module circuit is adjusted to produce 4,000 pulses per second with a pulse width of about 10 microseconds (with an average resting interval of about 240 microseconds), a load of 100 ohms, and a charging potential of 100 volts.


Using Ohm's Law, these conditions would produce 100 watts of peak power.
Using Equation I, the average power in the Example 1 can thus be calculated, i.e., about 4 watts.
Assuming that the power dissipated in the module itself is approximately 8 watts, the total average energy consumed is the sum of energy expenditure due to load and energy dissipated in the working module, namely a grand total of about 12 watts.


( Only to understand the difference:  +/- 90% savings and not = misconception " C.O.P. 10X" )

 Clearly, the average power consumed in the pulsed incandescence of a light bulb under the control of the inventive module of this example is as low as almost one-tenth the amount consumed in a conventional AC power supply for an incandescent light bulb.


Not only for luminaires : http://www.google.com/patents/US5942858

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Offline Vortex1

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To add another dimension to the argument of whether the H bridge can be replaced with a power function generator, it would only be true if the function generator could provide an open condition to the tank circuit during the 33% dead time. Normally a FG will present a low impedance output to a DUT when programmed for zero output e.g. during the dead time. So the H bridge may be unique by "letting go" of the tank during this period.

  I am not familiar with power function generators capabilities, or whether it can provide the open condition so I tried driving the tank from a Voltage source executing a PWL (piece wise linear function)using a PWF file in LTSpice. The results do not match up with the same  pulse sequence driving an H bridge.

I used the same values and timing as Spokane1's sim except only 5 cycles at +/-200 volts. The 200 volts was so that I could get some juice into the rectifiers 1N5817. I realize I may need more than 5 cycles.

So this is a single ended drive from a pseudo FG. Next I'll show an actual  FET H bridge.

This is a first rough shot at it. I'll post all my results and more detail as time permits. forgive the errors.

green =drive
blue = tank voltage
red =tank current

Offline ramset

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The conference Movie has been released By Aaron
and here is a comment from member Partzman [reposted with permission]
Partzman
Quote
""
I have finished watching Graham's MIT video and IMO, he really does give enough info to replicate.

Several points of note, when the input current as shown on CH2 (blue) reaches the negative peak, the primary core is saturated. At the flat top portion of the waveform, the primary core is at a higher permeability.  The core bias is set of course by the PMs.

During the negative half cycle of the input voltage on CH1, the first pair of opposite H bridge switches are on and during the positive half cycle the second switch pair are used which is already known. However, during the remaining part of the input cycle when the core is in a high perm state, the second pair is left on and conduction is thru primarily the mosfet reverse conduction.

The synchronous mosfet switching uses both normal and reverse conduction and may have already been pointed out but not that I recall. While current is flowing thru the mosfet in the normal mode that is, when conventional current flow is from drain to source, the gate is switched off for a short period producing a large positive going voltage spike on the secondary. Also during this time, the secondary current and flux reverses
direction as is seen in the green channel and when the peak reverse is reached, gate voltage is again applied to the mosfet which now conducts in the reverse conduction mode that is, from source to drain with very low resistance. This action is what results in the output caps being charged negatively as shown. Graham also stated that the output current phasing is 180' from that shown.

Regarding the issue of the current connections on the input Clark/Hess power analyzer, he removed the original connections well after he had explained the operation of the device and all the input/output measurements. He made the change during a time he was explaining another aspect of the device.

The secondary core half is operated in a mostly linear mode while the primary core half is operating around the saturation knee. This seems to be a key prerequisite in the appropriate flux flows (or magnetic vector potential) along with the proper output synchronous timing.

I can now understand how a small capacitance added to the gates of the output synchronous mosfets could destroy the OU effect
end quote""

--------------------------------------------.

The link to Energetic forum is in the first post of this thread
and here is the link to Graham's talk mentioned above,

 it is a "for sale" item ,with a percentage going to Graham.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20547-magnetic-implosion-transformer-graham-gunderson.html

respectfully
Chet K

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Offline vasik041

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Offline ramset

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Vasik
Here we do not look for a nicer fitting shoe or a fancier hat ...or ..
and honestly,  assumptions of nonsense ,thievery, skullduggery or just plain error have ruled the day. 

However
here we have something which Most have asked for [and never gotten at this forum]  a properly presented claim
being tested by a properly qualified person using properly qualified test equipment.

having worked for test labs all my life , I realize the gaping holes in the above statement .

before the Page fills with
NOT or disagreement or claims of BS we must at the very least appreciate the opportunity to investigate this claim as presented ...which does indeed seem quite Mysterious .

that being said

Did you expect a red carpet a marching band and a guy to install it in your house
for free ??
welcome to the Grind of blindfolded investigation of world changing technology's... a path filled with distractions
dead ends and countless carnival hawkers .....

But  "some day" ??

please be respectful as there are very talented fellows donating their very talented time and money ..to do the best they can to understand what is taking place here .
and those fellows are not charging you a dime ...

you want shoes ??
that's middle of isle 5 left side bottom shelf ..

you wanna change the world ??
That's isle two

the line forms outside over there by that guy in the pink tutu holding that sparky thing with the pink unicorn wearing a black leather mask [yes we have many different pink unicorns ,very popular...

I'm not sure whats sparking but don't get too close....

just another day...??
maybe not !!

you want to talk about _your_ world changing technology ?
Please Start a thread.. it truly does sound interesting. [isle seven next to the guy handing out sun glasses.
 8)

respectfully
Chet K











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Offline vasik041

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Vasik
Here we do not look for a nicer fitting shoe or a fancier hat ...or ..
and honestly,  assumptions of nonsense ,thievery, skullduggery or just plain error have ruled the day. 

However
here we have something which Most have asked for [and never gotten at this forum]  a properly presented claim
being tested by a properly qualified person using properly qualified test equipment.

having worked for test labs all my life , I realize the gaping holes in the above statement .

before the Page fills with
NOT or disagreement or claims of BS we must at the very least appreciate the opportunity to investigate this claim as presented ...which does indeed seem quite Mysterious .

that being said

Did you expect a red carpet a marching band and a guy to install it in your house
for free ??
welcome to the Grind of blindfolded investigation of world changing technology's... a path filled with distractions
dead ends and countless carnival hawkers .....

But  "some day" ??

please be respectful as there are very talented fellows donating their very talented time and money ..to do the best they can to understand what is taking place here .
and those fellows are not charging you a dime ...

you want shoes ??
that's middle of isle 5 left side bottom shelf ..

you wanna change the world ??
That's isle two

the line forms outside over there by that guy in the pink tutu holding that sparky thing with the pink unicorn wearing a black leather mask [yes we have many different pink unicorns ,very popular...

I'm not sure whats sparking but don't get too close....

just another day...??
maybe not !!

you want to talk about _your_ world changing technology ?
Please Start a thread.. it truly does sound interesting. [isle seven next to the guy handing out sun glasses.
 8)

respectfully
Chet K

Please don't be upset, but my point is that I don't see the reason why I should pay money (buy DVD) for a chance to test something. There are plenty of good ideas around...

It's my opinion.

Offline minnie

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   Yeah, it reminds me of the Steorn thingy, something like SKDB.
   A fee was payable!

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Offline ramset

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Free lunch is "isle 3"
I think its potato soup today ..




Offline Liberty

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Free lunch is "isle 3"
I think its potato soup today ..

In my experience, as with any of these OU ideas, I search to first find and identify where the "other" source of energy is that will be added to the input of the device, to give a higher output than the input.  If there is no other energy source that can be added to the output, there is no higher output.  It's that simple.

Liberty

Offline Vortex1

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Where common sense cuts to the core (no pun intended):

All probe skewing and Clark-Hess glitches aside, I still would have liked to see a $20 "Kill-A-Watt" meter on the AC mains side of his device. With a claimed 5x or more gain in power, surely we could have looked at mains Watts in and Watts out (even guestimating the automobile lamp wattage by brightness) and had a much better reading on the veracity of the claim. Why this was not done speaks volumes.

I find it hard to believe that his main supply and driver circuit would be soaking up so much power that it would mask the gain, and furthermore, if it required such a dissipative circuit in order to work, of what use is it?

 Is anybody getting my drift?

Offline Spokane1

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Dear All,

Here is my version of the system schematic to date.

Spokane1

 

OneLink