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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson's Energy conference presentation Most impressive and mysterious  (Read 104206 times)

Offline gotoluc

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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.

And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)

Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!


Good morning TK and all


I have a question for anyone that knows. Has it been confirmed if Graham is doing the power measurements before the H-bridge or is it done after it?


Thanks


Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Morning TK,

Try this:

Hey, thanks, that actually works! I've marked the pinout on your photo, and wired up U7 to match. Now the circuit does not need an outside clock signal, and the previously non-functional pot now controls the frequency. Now we just need to play around with the timing capacitor and resistor values to get outputs that are in the right frequency and duty cycle range. (I doubled the value of the frequency timing capacitor already but need to slow it down even more I think.)

In the scopeshot below the Dark Blue trace is now the Pin 12 output of the oscillator U7.

Thanks for looking that up for me! I had started looking through example circuits for the 74123 but stopped for breakfast and a beer before I got that far.

(But does it correspond to what is shown in the photos of Gunderson's board?)


Offline TinselKoala

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Good morning TK and all


I have a question for anyone that knows. Has it been confirmed if Graham is doing the power measurements before the H-bridge or is it done after it?


Thanks


Luc
I think he is measuring "input power" as input to the transformer, that is, between the H-bridge output and the input to the transformer.
There has been some discussion on this matter. It is my opinion that the input power should be measured as input to the power supply to the H-bridge and should also include the inputs to the other necessary power supplies, but obviously not everyone agrees with me.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

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Offline Spokane1

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Dear All,

Here is our logic diagram to date including today's and yesterday's review and work by TK.

Spokane1

Offline k4zep

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Hey, thanks, that actually works! I've marked the pinout on your photo, and wired up U7 to match. Now the circuit does not need an outside clock signal, and the previously non-functional pot now controls the frequency. Now we just need to play around with the timing capacitor and resistor values to get outputs that are in the right frequency and duty cycle range. (I doubled the value of the frequency timing capacitor already but need to slow it down even more I think.)

In the scopeshot below the Dark Blue trace is now the Pin 12 output of the oscillator U7.

Thanks for looking that up for me! I had started looking through example circuits for the 74123 but stopped for breakfast and a beer before I got that far.

(But does it correspond to what is shown in the photos of Gunderson's board?)

Hi TK

Glad to be of help, used those chips many years ago in some ultrasonic tracking circuits and remembered it would self Osc. Looked it up in some application notes.   Your doing some GREAT work there! 
I too get totally engrossed in circuits sometimes and can't sleep and end up plumb squirreley!  Have to pace myself or my heart kicks into AFIB and it slows me down for
a day or two!

I have found out a bit more about the Blue output pulse that stays high during the rest time.......I'll post waveform and discuss it a bit in another post.

Luc steered me to this site:  http://teslaenergysolutionsllc.com/product-category/solid-state-relays/     It has a couple SSRelays that look very much
like or similar to what GG uses.  For your consideration.

Ben

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

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Offline k4zep

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I think he is measuring "input power" as input to the transformer, that is, between the H-bridge output and the input to the transformer.
There has been some discussion on this matter. It is my opinion that the input power should be measured as input to the power supply to the H-bridge and should also include the inputs to the other necessary power supplies, but obviously not everyone agrees with me.

I agree with you TK.  If he wished to show that his transformer itself was "OU", the way he did it was correct.  IF he wished to show that the total device was OU, you needed to measure the power in at the source (wall plug) and the power out at the load.  If load power > Source power, OU possibly if instrumentation is correct.  As he had approximately 12VDC out, battery and or large Cap into a 12/110V converter back to input should loop it.  If it didn't, instrumentation would be imperfect!

Ben K4ZEP

Offline poynt99

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If he wished to show that his transformer itself was "OU", the way he did it was correct.
It is pretty clear that is what he was trying to do.

Therefore input power is measured after the H-Bridge.

Measuring before the H-Bridge is like saying one needs to measure the AC power feeding their bench DC power supply when it is supplying DC power to a DUT. Which of course makes no sense.

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Offline TinselKoala

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No. The peculiar characteristics of the H-bridge and the Synchronous Rectifier are critical components of the "OU" system and the power supplied _to_ these components is part of the input to the device.  The device would not work without these subsystems with their particular details, and their tuning is critical to the operation.

The timing breadboard, as we now know, is providing an ordinary set of signals with some tuning variability to the rest of the circuit, and this set of signals could be coming from many other sources, there is nothing particularly special about them. Furthermore, they are not of a nature as to be able to supply significant power to the output, since they are low-power, high-impedance signals that are going to mosfet drivers in the functional parts of the circuit. So I can accept that the power input to the breadboard timing circuit doesn't need to be included as part of the "input".

The input to a DC power supply is not necessarily part of the "input" because it could be substituted by a battery pack, a capacitor bank w/ impedance matching, or a different DC power supply. The peculiar characteristics of the DC power supply don't matter. However the _output_ of such a supply, which is powering the H-bridge and the Synchronous Diode, is necessary for the device to function and apparently _can_ provide power which appears on the final overall output -- since there is clearly power in the final output.

If one takes the position that only input _real_ power to the transformer itself need be counted as "input" then one is forced, it seems to me, to also conclude that my microQEG, to mention only one device of mine, is also OU in the same way that Gunderson's transformer is. Maybe that's why I got asked if I wanted to present the device at the GlobalBem conference.

In the comments on my video "Texas Has Resonance" :
Quote
JohnEnergy2012 4 months ago

Would you like to show this during our conference? Contact me: john@globalbem.com facebook.com/Globalbem

I don't think .99 believes that my microQEG is overunity. Neither do I, for that matter, since I count as _input_ the DC power that is required to operate its peculiar oscillator, without which the device would not function, and _output_ the real power produced in the air-core transformer secondary which drives a bulb, motor or HV capacitor/spark gap.

Offline Vortex1

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Has anyone read this book ?

http://grahamgunderson.com/ou/

Maybe it contains a basic philosophy how to proceed, and perhaps the basic circuit, as it seems to claim in the advert.

Quote
"A REAL OVERUNITY TRANSFORMER DEMONSTRATED TO AN AUDIENCE AND DETAILS ON HOW TO REPLICATE "

Note: "Details on how to replicate"

Comes with a 100% money back guarantee if not satisfied. How can you lose.

It is one of a collection of books being sold at: http://johnbedini.net/

I realize current printing is from the conference last year, but will probably be revised soon to include the  most recent conference.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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And how many "successful replications" have been performed according to information in that book? How many people are running their homes from it, or have applied for and received any of the many OU prizes that are out there? After all, the book is old news.


Offline TinselKoala

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Meanwhile, thanks to K4zep for the oscillator details, here's the revised/corrected wiring for U7, the 74HC123 monostable multivibrator configured as the master oscillator for the Gunderson breadboard "Simplified Presentation Logic Wiring" diagram that Spokane1 drew out for us.

When I first built it according to Spokane1's diagram I had to feed it with an external clock signal to get the system to make pulses, and one of the pots on U7 didn't have any effect. Using this revised wiring it is now self-contained, with the frequency and duty cycle pots both working and the ranges indicated on the drawing. I've put in the actual values of the timing components I wound up using to get the ranges shown.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Vortex1

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And how many "successful replications" have been performed according to information in that book? How many people are running their homes from it, or have applied for and received any of the many OU prizes that are out there? After all, the book is old news.

I agree with your sentiments, and it makes me wonder about the current interest in the latest G.G.offering, considering past performance and affiliations. My post was not an endorsement,  rather, it was posted for  "informational purposes". Everyone should draw their own conclusions based on careful reading of the advert style and affiliations.

I might add that you fellows are doing a very good job at back engineering the circuitry. Whether a very accurate timing diagram can be derived from this is YTBD.

Offline poynt99

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No. The peculiar characteristics of the H-bridge and the Synchronous Rectifier are critical components of the "OU" system and the power supplied _to_ these components is part of the input to the device.  The device would not work without these subsystems with their particular details, and their tuning is critical to the operation.

Well, I'm only referring to Input power, not output. So the synchronous diode is of no relevance in that regard.

Does "DC" not qualify as "peculiar" in your world? I would think it does, if indeed GG's H-Bridge output does as well. Or, we could just as easily say there is nothing particularly "special" about either one. My Big Muff Pi pedal won't work without its 9V power supply connected either. Does that make the power supply "special"? I think not.

Ultimately, both supply voltage and current to whatever device we connect to them, and as such, they are simply just power sources. Granted in GG's case the power source's wave form is sync'd to the device, but that is the only difference. It is still just acting as the input power source.

Offline Dog-One

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With a DC power source, I would think the internal resistance would be critical, since it is this resistance that determines the maximum rate of current flow at switch closure, which defines the current ramp--timing.


I also recall not being able to get Bill Alek to show input power to his amplifier that was driving his Split Flux Transformer.  I got in Hillary fashion, "What's the difference?" response.  For those that never played with this SFT arrangement, using a standard transformer output PA amplifier reveals normal operation, but when used with a low voltage capacitive-coupled car audio amplifier, you see something quite different, right up until you measure the input power to the amplifier.


Offline k4zep

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Meanwhile, thanks to K4zep for the oscillator details, here's the revised/corrected wiring for U7, the 74HC123 monostable multivibrator configured as the master oscillator for the Gunderson breadboard "Simplified Presentation Logic Wiring" diagram that Spokane1 drew out for us.

When I first built it according to Spokane1's diagram I had to feed it with an external clock signal to get the system to make pulses, and one of the pots on U7 didn't have any effect. Using this revised wiring it is now self-contained, with the frequency and duty cycle pots both working and the ranges indicated on the drawing. I've put in the actual values of the timing components I wound up using to get the ranges shown.

Thanks TK for the total schematic!

Ben K4ZEP

 

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