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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson's Energy conference presentation Most impressive and mysterious  (Read 106351 times)

Offline gotoluc

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All,

Sorry about the oversize picture, forgot about downsizing on my MAC. 

Ben K4ZEP


You can still edit your post. In the upper right corner (of that post) click modify and uncheck the first picture and upload the re-sized one and click save.
It will help all who come to read this page.


Thanks for your help


Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline k4zep

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You can still edit your post. In the upper right corner (of that post) click modify and uncheck the first picture and upload the re-sized one and click save.
It will help all who come to read this page.


Thanks for your help


Luc

Hi Luc,
Fixed that huge picture.  Should make everyone's life easier.
I eventually will make that driver using a "H" bridge. Or as I like to
simplify things, do it another way.   

Everything circuit wise in the Gunderson device suggest that it was simply designed to
vary a magnetic field back and forth in a ferromagnetic magnetically biased core and in magnets with
a transformer and at a certain point in time, at a particular point in the varying field,
you hammer that field with a very high voltage relative high speed pulse. From the time you pulse it, till the start
of the next repeating cycle, power occurs and is extracted from this core/field, etc. 

That Gunderson chose to use a H bridge and a complex rectification system, etc. would appear
to be just one way of doing it.  The REAL question is......What are the characteristics of the power output pulse?
Everything else is just circuitry to get the core/field to release this energy with the least amount of work to do it.
Circuitry is circuitry, When you Google "H Bridge drivers in Tesla Coils" you get hundreds of variations on a theme.
We are running around in circles trying to figure out exactly how his circuits work, but we need to more know
how is the power generated by his waveforms. Look at the wave, not the boat!

Respectfully,
Ben K4ZEP

 


   

Offline TinselKoala

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I've been going over some pix I've received of the breadboard circuit. I have been able to positively identify all the chips except for the TO-220 devices at top right (one heatsinked, one bare) which are presumed to be voltage regulators, perhaps LM7805 or similar.

The DIP packages are typical CMOS chips that should be readily available from the usual suppliers.

TS556   Dual Timer
74HC123AN  Dual monostable multivibrator
74AC74P  Dual D-type Flip-Flop
74AC14PC   Hex Schmitt Trigger Inverter
TS372   Dual Comparator

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Offline TinselKoala

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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.

And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)

Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!

Offline k4zep

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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.

And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)

Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!

Thats why I was so impressed with Luc's waveform as soon as he showed it!!!
I agree!  Luc needs to rectify that output during the resting period.  It does appear
that GG's short pulse enhances the output period.

Ben

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Offline Spokane1

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Dear Builders and Measurement Specialists,

Here is my first pass at wiring diagrams for the Graham Gunderson Logic controller. There are two versions. One is the way things appeared to be wired during the presentation. The other is the way the system was connected a week after the convention in Graham's shop. In that version he has disabled some of the chips and appears to have attached one or two pulse generators to possibly sweep input signals.

There is a fair amount of detail in these drawings. I have included pdf versions so you can study the small text. The resistors came in pretty good, but I couldn't see what the values were for the capacitors or the trim pots.

The next step is to develop a logic diagram so that we can figure out what is happening.

Spokane1

Offline TinselKoala

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@Spokane1:
That's nice work! I know how tedious that kind of thing is, especially when working from photographs that may not be too clear or from good angles.

But.... It seems from your schematics that the entire bit of circuitry that includes the components associated with U4, U2 and U1 is a Red Herring that does not connect to the rest of the circuit at all, other than being powered by the Vcc supply. This is the case in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics. I'm sure you noticed this when you were drawing them up. This simplifies the problem greatly.

So here's what I think it's doing, based on your schematics.  We appear to have the 556 timer (U3) providing a clock signal that goes unchanged to both the H-Bridge and the Synchronous Diode. And we also have in the Presentation circuit, two monostable multivibrators U5 and U7. U7 appears to be an oscillator that provides pulses to the U8 hex inverter, which go through two of U8's gates then fed to the H-bridge. But this same signal through only one gate of the U8 is then fed back to the other monostable multivibrator U5 to trigger it, I believe, and it provides a pulse that goes to the Synchronous Diode. The U8 hex inverter also passes the input signal from U7 through three gates which then goes to the H-bridge. So the hex inverter's two outputs to the H-bridge are cleaned up, squared-off and oppositely phased versions of the pulse signal from U7. The U6 is not used in the Presentation circuit. There doesn't appear to be anything that synchronizes the U3 556 clock with the U7-U5 clock system. The U3 clock is fixed frequency and pulse width but the U7 and U5 multivibrators have trimpots for adjustments of either pulse width or frequency or both.

In the Experimental version, the U7 oscillator isn't used and an external FG (or two) is presumed to provide the clock signal for the U8 hex inverter and also the feedback signal for triggering the U5 monostable multivibrator.


Did you notice that my "mockup" of the U4 circuit (the TS372 dual comparator) oscillates, when it oscillates,  at exactly 60 Hz? This is undoubtedly due to those essentially floating reference pins 2 and 5, making the thing so sensitive and unstable that it picks up EMI from the house wiring, power supplies, etc. and oscillates in step with it, when the voltage supplied to the 1k resistor is just right. That is, if I built it right to begin with and if my TL082 is behaving as the TS372 would. Of course this issue is moot because this section of the circuitry isn't actually connected to anything in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics.

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Offline Spokane1

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@Spokane1:
That's nice work! I know how tedious that kind of thing is, especially when working from photographs that may not be too clear or from good angles.

But.... It seems from your schematics that the entire bit of circuitry that includes the components associated with U4, U2 and U1 is a Red Herring that does not connect to the rest of the circuit at all, other than being powered by the Vcc supply. This is the case in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics. I'm sure you noticed this when you were drawing them up. This simplifies the problem greatly.


Dear TK,

Graham said that only 25% of that circuit was being used. With 8 IC's that means only about 2 of them have any useful function, which seems consistent with your analysis.

Now, I shall take your observations and compose a logic diagram so that I can understand what is going on.  The purpose of this whole exercise is to see how the backend timing pulse is generated. I suspect that since it is so short that the start and end times relative to the input wave form are critical.  After this is done others may prefer the use of a microprocessor, but if it only takes two or three chips then why bother.

You must get up early in the morning to do this kind of review so quickly.

Thanks for the positive comments. Doing this kind of work is a walk in the park (since I took some of the photos with my sons IPhone) compared to figuring out the E.V. Gray technology from 30 year old 110 format photos.

Spokane1

Offline Spokane1

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Dear TK,

Here is a simplified drawing after considering your comments. This part of the system shouldn't break any bodies bank.

Spokane1

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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OK, I've breadboarded the 556 clock portion (U3) of the circuit. I posted this on OUR but I suppose I should put it here too.

The only flavor of 556 that I had in my box is a TI brand NE556N, and with Vcc = 5 V, and using the timing components listed on Spokane1's schematic, it oscillates at about 292 kHz.  Going up to Vcc = 9V it goes up to about 313 kHz.

This doesn't seem to correspond to any of the frequencies in the Gunderson scopeshot though.

Changing the capacitor on Pin 8 to 10 nF instead of 1 nF brings the frequency down to about 72 kHz, and shortens the duty cycle to about 57 percent, which makes a bit more sense. Maybe.

(Morning? Is it really morning already? My how time flies when I don't sleep.)

Offline TinselKoala

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Since the U3 clock is entirely independent of the clock pulses generated by the U5-U7 system it's hard for me to understand how they could maintain a precise relationship. Perhaps the timing drift between these two independent pulse generating systems is why Gunderson's results are not consistent over time or from trial to trial.

A microprocessor control system would certainly make synchronization among all the necessary pulse timings more precise.

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Offline Spokane1

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Since the U3 clock is entirely independent of the clock pulses generated by the U5-U7 system it's hard for me to understand how they could maintain a precise relationship. Perhaps the timing drift between these two independent pulse generating systems is why Gunderson's results are not consistent over time or from trial to trial.

A microprocessor control system would certainly make synchronization among all the necessary pulse timings more precise.

Dear TK,

I agree with you. I probably missed a connection or small jumper wire some where.

Spokane1

Offline Farmhand

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I'm reposting Gotoluc's scopeshot along with the Gunderson scopeshot. As you can see Luc's shot is virtually identical to the "input" traces on Gunderson's shot.

And he achieved it with a much simpler circuit (but using a FG for the clock instead of making an oscillator out of logic chips.)

Now, I'd like to see what Luc can get for an output!

Umm, isn't Gotoluc's output 4.07 volts across a 20 Ohm resister ?

Doesn't that work out to about 0.8 Watt output ?

Input says 1.97 VA but what is the input in Watts ?

I'm assuming he has no synchronous rectification. Is he just using a FWBR.

Offline TinselKoala

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The 74HC123s do not oscillate on their own. Apparently there must be an input from an external clock for the system to work. I supplied a clock signal from one of my function generators to Pin 10 of U7. I could not get it to work with a signal from the 556 circuit that I tested earlier. The result is shown in the screenshot below.

The CH1 Yellow trace is the Pin 13 output of U5 which goes to the Synchronous Diode. The CH2 Light Blue and CH3 Purple (Cyan and Magenta?) traces are the complimentary outputs of the 7414 U8 which go to the H-bridge. The CH4 Dark Blue trace is the input from my FG to Pin 10 of U7.

The two pots on U5 control the Yellow trace pulse width and pulse delay. One of the pots on U7 controls the pulse width of the two complimentary outputs of U8 to the H-bridge. I couldn't see any effect of the other pot on U7 but that may be due to where I'm injecting the clock signal.

Offline k4zep

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The 74HC123s do not oscillate on their own. Apparently there must be an input from an external clock for the system to work. I supplied a clock signal from one of my function generators to Pin 10 of U7. I could not get it to work with a signal from the 556 circuit that I tested earlier. The result is shown in the screenshot below.

The CH1 Yellow trace is the Pin 13 output of U5 which goes to the Synchronous Diode. The CH2 Light Blue and CH3 Purple (Cyan and Magenta?) traces are the complimentary outputs of the 7414 U8 which go to the H-bridge. The CH4 Dark Blue trace is the input from my FG to Pin 10 of U7.

The two pots on U5 control the Yellow trace pulse width and pulse delay. One of the pots on U7 controls the pulse width of the two complimentary outputs of U8 to the H-bridge. I couldn't see any effect of the other pot on U7 but that may be due to where I'm injecting the clock signal.

Morning TK,

Try this:


 

OneLink