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Author Topic: car energy consume improvements  (Read 23926 times)

Offline onepower

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2023, 12:06:50 AM »
On ammonia as a fuel...

Ammonia or NH3 is just a convenient way to store hydrogen because nitrogen is basically inert. Of course, the next question is where are they going to get the hydrogen from?.

I see a lot of this kind of this nonsense coming out of Alberta. The newest non-solution fad from the right wingers is called "emissions reduction". In effect, they consume more fossil fuels to scrub CO2 from the stack exhaust and pump it underground. They also consume even more fossil fuels to remove the hydrogen from oil or gas and bond it to nitrogen to produce ammonia.

In effect consuming much more fossil fuels to supposedly "reduce the emissions". It's almost like some kind of oil cult or religion, an addiction they cannot get away from. They would literally go to any length to keep consuming oil like a drug user no matter how absurd it is. It's kind of sad.

The neat thing about ammonia is even a relatively small amount of liquid/vapor can render you unconscious then cause asphyxiation ie. suffocation. It makes gasoline or even hydrogen look meek by comparison. A major collision, tank rupture could cause hundreds of deaths within a one block radius in a highly populated area. Like some B rate movie where people just start collapsing on the street and as more people rush to help they collapse and everyone's dead within a matter of minutes. Using Ammonia for fuel is probably the stupidest thing anyone could do.

However if you think your clever, wet a cotton ball with ammonia and waft it right under your nose. When you wake up and pick yourself up off the floor you will have learned a valuable lesson.

AC










 


Offline ramset

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2023, 12:07:28 AM »
Found: "the exhaust gas from the actual ammonia-fueled engines contains unburned ammonia, nitrogen oxides (NOx), and nitrous oxide (N2O), and there is a need to develop technologies to remove these harmful substances."

NOx is what is crippling the farming and construction sectors, depending on local brand of politics.


Having Toyota involved,and the claim of “the end of EV?”
Would not be good to have other issues ( pollutants etc)
Which would nullify the claim!


Not Toyota’s first summer…
IMO the claim should be taken very seriously ( other players in the running ( ammonia fuel)too


One thing that comes to mind with ammonia
Could the human waste (ammonia) issue somehow become useful too ….?


That would be amazing

Offline lancaIV

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2023, 10:44:34 AM »
Urban movement Minimalism :
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-vegan-electric-self-charging-solar-tricycle--2#/
Looking for the conventional electric drive 1 hour consume : ≤ 450 Wh
Means,by magnet array drive :

https://www.voanews.com/a/can-better-electric-motor-save-planet/4235140.html
1/2 the conventional drive consume : 225 Wh per hour

Now we get,beside on-board recharge, battery swap station service alternative :

https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/taiwan-soon-to-have-more-gogoro-electric-scooter-battery-swap-stations-than-gas-stations/
These are steps to the 24/7 ' autonomous urban limitless mobility drive' .
Toyota 1969 city mobility concept :
https://oldconceptcars.com/1930-2004/toyota-ex-ii-1969/
50 years later it will become starting !

Oldie but Goldie :
https://www.brothers-brick.com/2020/01/05/the-incredible-inedible-electric-egg/

wmbr
OCWL
p.s.: instead glass or plastics an alternative :

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_wood_composite
       wood car,wood garage,wood house,wood furniture,......

Offline adrouk

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2023, 11:31:52 AM »
I really don't think the future of transport is to keep ICE, it must be electric and all is needed is to fit an electricity harvester coupled with efficient motors and buffer to maintain continuous supply.

We need to stop the addiction to highly polluting system and just stop research for diesel/petrol alternative.

Or just start to look for the benefit of asymmetric capacitors eventually based on mercury where complete freedom of travel anywhere will be achieved … just imagine we don't need to build anymore roads and disrupt natural environment, while we can use the land for any other purpose.
Also, imagine we dont need anymore to enhance pollution by completely elimination of clutches and breaks, mechanical or hydraulic gear box and so on. While we can dramatically reduce pollution generated by mining industry.

It shouldn't be that hard with all tech and knowledge available right now.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2023, 12:19:01 PM »
Why not as ' urban pedal generator mobility' ?
Bring down the 225 Wh by ' voltage/current amplifier' ?
How much we can pedalling in Watts per hour,conventional or improved generator/alternator ?
75 W per hour an adult,150 W per hour with improved drive !?
https://www.re-innovation.co.uk/docs/pedal-generator-info-and-ideas/

Option : Solar panel on tect,wind turbine ( resistance/drag versus gain),
brake energy recuperation !

Yes,we have the 24/7 stop-less mobility technology !

But is there a need ? For 1%,10%,up to 100% of world daily moving  population !?
Small e-mobile mass production,beside Micro-cars :
GM-Wueling in China versus Citroen Ami/Opel Rocks ?
Technical comparison,financial comparison !
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36351549/citroen-ev-coming/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Bingo

Is the industry really trendsetter ?

Streetless mobility concept ,'flying egg'  ;) :
https://www.urbanairmobilitynews.com/air-taxis/volkswagen-developing-flying-car-with-china-business-partner/

wmbr
OCWL
« Last Edit: September 19, 2023, 03:43:15 PM by lancaIV »

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2023, 03:51:11 PM »
Why not as ' urban pedal generator mobility' ?
Bring down the 225 Wh by ' voltage/current amplifier' ?
How much we can pedalling in Watts per hour,conventional or improved generator/alternator ?
75 W per hour an adult,150 W per hour with improved drive !?
https://www.re-innovation.co.uk/docs/pedal-generator-info-and-ideas/

Option : Solar panel on tect,wind turbine ( resistance/drag versus gain),
brake energy recuperation !

Yes,we have the 24/7 stop-less mobility technology !

But is there a need ? For 1%,10%,up to 100% of world daily moving  population !?
Small e-mobile mass production,beside Micro-cars :
GM-Wueling in China versus Citroen Ami/Opel Rocks ?
Technical comparison,financial comparison !
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36351549/citroen-ev-coming/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Bingo

Is the industry really trendsetter ?

Streetless mobility concept ,'flying egg'  ;) :
https://www.urbanairmobilitynews.com/air-taxis/volkswagen-developing-flying-car-with-china-business-partner/

wmbr
OCWL
What are those magicat Watt per hour you reference? Doesn't seem a unit I was taught about.
Please if you're not sure, look up what W and Wh mean.

"W per hour" means J/s/h those an increase of power every hour, by one Watt. I doubt that's what you mean here.

A casual bike ride for a typical adult human could be 75 W, wouldn't break much of a sweat.
75 Watt, not per hour, not per second, not Wh, just 75 Watt. 75 Joules per second.
When I go for a spirited bike ride of around two hours, I will average over 200 W, but I'm a big boy and and I was born for aerobic performance sports and it does very much tire me.

With modest speed ceiling, urban vehicles with decent comfort (rain and cold proof) could need limited power. It takes larger bicycle-like wheels for low rolling resistance but high grip, integrated into a bubble-like body, much like the hovering car from that movie referenced in that VW article.
To cruise at 30 kph on level roads, such a vehicle would need little more than 250 W. With hills/bridges, snow and wind to contend with, power demand at 30 kph will be quite a bit more. Easily over 1 kW, let alone with 2 occupants going over a bridge with slushy snow and a headwind. Now, with e-bike technology, it's rather easy to get a few kW of peak power for such instances. For traffic safety, acceleration would best be kept in check and peak power only used for special situations.
If it's freezing out and the bubble isn't too well insulated, a heater to make a sole occupant comfortable in a shirt...would take a lot more energy than to merely drive it at 30 kph. Small EVs regularly pull 1-1.5 kW to keep the car comfortable when parked.
Proper application of insulation can help a lot there. the good thing about insultation is that it tends to be light weight, all you need is a lot of air bubble. Styrofoam, or even better: aerogel, if you can keep it from disintegrating. Double glazed windows are great normally, but less for an e-bike kind of arrangement.
Keeping a pedal assist in the little car would help the occupants warm a lot, of course. Fighting condensation will be a bigger problem than the drivetrain for such a super light car.

When a vehicle needs to operate on motorways, say with a 130 kph top speed which is well within its power ceiling to remain nimble in traffic, power requirement and energy store are a lot more significant.

https://www.peravescz.com/
I've loved this concept for decades. I bet the power demand is very modest.

https://aptera.us/
These guys are making someone even more comfortable, but it's a WIDE beast. Footprint on the road of a clumsy supercar. Its main failing is that it doesn't fly, you still get stuck in traffic with the other human cattle.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2023, 04:01:26 PM »
A typical, relatively fit, person through pedaling motion can generate around 50 to 75W for a length of time (typically hours), or up to 700W for very short bursts (seconds) or 200-300W for short bursts (minutes).
https://www.re-innovation.co.uk/docs/pedal-generator-info-and-ideas/
When I pedal 75 W energy in one hour I reach 75 Wh power ( gained and consumed ) !

The question is not what we can reach as top-athlete,but as average person and without great effort !
Female chemical 1-day power in Wh ?https://www.recumbent.news/2022/07/24/breaking-news-nici-walde-has-broken-her-own-24-hour-world-record-and-rode-1130-km-702-miles/
1130 Km/24h ~ 47 Km•h average velocity = over 40 Km•h max. City speed limit !

Personal assistance,mechanical and/or electrical/pure magnetical ( torque amplifier )

We do not invent,but we improve existent/exposed ideas ,f.e. pedal/velo car :

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mochet
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecar
https://www.wired.com/2009/03/the-past-is-pre/

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2023, 04:15:46 PM »
A typical, relatively fit, person through pedaling motion can generate around 50 to 75W for a length of time (typically hours), or up to 700W for very short bursts (seconds) or 200-300W for short bursts (minutes).
https://www.re-innovation.co.uk/docs/pedal-generator-info-and-ideas/
When I pedal 75 W energy in one hour I reach 75 Wh power ( gained and consumed ) !

The question is not what we can reach as top-athlete,but as average person and without great effort !
Personal assistance,mechanical and/or electrical/pure magnetical ( torque amplifier )

We do not invent,but we improve existent/exposed ideas ,f.e. pedal/velo car :

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mochet
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecar
https://www.wired.com/2009/03/the-past-is-pre/
75 Wh is not power, it's energy.

Energy is power times time. 75 W average power, and after an hour indeed that amounts to 75 Wh of energy.
The units are not optional suggestions or there to be juggled with.

Even if you build an amazing OU device at super low cost, if your one-page pitch gets any of the the units o of your achievements wrong, no company will be particulaly interested to even see your demonstrator.

See the links I added in my above post.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM »
https://www.google.com/search?q=work%2Cenergy+and+power&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m
for getting the each right a. work b. energy and c. power formula

The cabin roller or Aptera for under 5000 US$,fob factory ?
Today in A.I.-administrated fabrication factories ( included 3d print )we shall anymore pay for imaterial value,only for the transformation and material input costs !

I prefer http://www.evalbum.com/314 instead Aptera,related the chinese girl 'flying egg' (VW challenge in China) I recommend,e-strip independent ,over-road flying/flairing as publicated by Max Mueller Friedrich ,as sonic aircraft

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19750130&CC=DE&NR=2335220A1&KC=A1#
As ' flying/flairing micro-compact-living cabin unit'

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2023, 04:58:47 PM »
$5000??
If 1/3 of that is in the battery, that's a battery of less than 10 kWh. To have it all soldered up, in a decent case...you might not get more than 5 kWh for that $1667. 50-70 km of range if you drive slowly.
Then, what kind of soap box can one achieve for $3333, everything except battery?

If you want the solar panels so you're less dependent on chargers, add money. They'd be bespoke panels, and need to be hooked up to the drive battery.

$5000 may be doable for a leaning cabin e-bike type of deal, if mass produced. But it would be limited to 45 kph and banned from all roads in many countries probably. Where to park them? You need about the same space as a typical second "city" car the wife uses to haul a child and minor groceries.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2023, 05:19:24 PM »
Is for a limitless city/urban vehicle( not strictly  defined : as 4 wheel 'car') with 40 Km•h (+10% tachometer preservation) urban/city max.velocity

   1000 Wh net battery/capacitor power storage capacity not enough ?
Condition :

A. the Vegan etrike motorization ,magnet array drive improved ( Roberto Catalan,Sankar Pat)

B. claimed Saburo power source

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Tanaka+Saburo&IN=&CPC=&IC=

Is the Saburo power source then not also sufficient for :

II. Zsolt(based by Hawlitschek publication )  1,5 KW AC drive ic-engine car conversion

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20001207&CC=DE&NR=10011074A1&KC=A1#
III. Porquer 4x 500 W electric motors  transmission

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20001020&CC=FR&NR=2792258A1&KC=A1#

1000 Wh battery capacity : +- 100 US$ in mass production,5000 charge cycles by 80% DoD

Liberalism : creative destruction and destructive creativity

From A.I.-stand point the financial production from 1 US$ or 1 € is really cheap : several cents costs
95 cents per $ or € F.E.D/ECB-political margin !

The real physical productivity from the western economy : under 5 percentum !
A.I.= excluding this individual 95% losts !

Related $3333 soap-box : 2800 US$ the Tata-Fiat  Nano endseller price

                                             https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

                                            4000 US$ the Renault Kwid  endseller price

                                            https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid

Less engine costs ~ ≤ 3333 US$ engine-less mass production car/-t costs

Real world pricing !

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2023, 07:00:03 PM »
If you have OU, you don't need a battery even, you can run on a capacitor or sorts, or even none, depending on the technology.

Low speed vehicles will usually not rack up a lot of distance over a day. Batteries can be small enough to be carried to any home, and charge on almost any level of grip power available.
If someone were to operate a riksjah taxi service  of sorts, 75 W or less average human work added (6 hours net cycling on 8-12 hour shift, 300 Wh extra available), 1000 Wh may still be enough. Human drivers have done it without electric power forever, right? That's under 4 kg of cells, but they need some housing and BMS and a converter. Motors need nog be powerful, 1 kW is plenty and barely adds weight. Might even be disassembled and brought home overnight for safety as well.

Occupant safety is another question. If you're to mingle with cars and trucks, accidents easily turn lethal. Without a heavy construction, that's not going to change, and such heavy construction quickly turns a <1 kW vehcile into a vehicle too expensive to run at cycling speeds only, and then needs to hit 90 kph and demand 10 kW+ and 20 kWh+ to work for taxi services to any degree. 20 kWh on a light car-like vehicle with some highway section, simple won't make it through a shift. Then you get into charging infra challenges, battery swaps, or larger and more costly batteries.
A lot of untility is gotton from a riksjah class vehicle and the next step up to a pizza delivery car is huge. Double the weight, double the power. Double the speed, quadruple or more the power.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2023, 07:12:34 PM »
An ' autonomous city drive car/-t' is strictly legal street max. velocity limited !
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/cities-where-it-s-faster-to-walk-than-drive/
City-/sub-urban range !
In Germany,total country = rural+urban( included high-way),average velocity : 56 Km•h ! Source : ADAC

We can assume that the global car average velocity is in the 50 Km•h range !


1000 Wh battery weight ,by 500 Wh/Kg = 2 Kg

1000 Wh capacitor weight,by 100 Wh/Kg = 10 Kg

Both + energy storage monitoring system and charger





Offline Cloxxki

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2023, 07:54:51 PM »
500 Wh/kg doesn't exist outside the laboratory. If you had it in any quantities, able to cycle a few thousands time as is typical, you could name your price. Might as well calculate the weight of an OU system without battery, it may even happen sooner.

56 kph may be average, but you can't drive on the road you need to drive with 50 kph as a top speed. Hugely unsafe and usually illegal. In rural areas, tractors going 40 kph on 60-80 kph roads, are a true cork in the bottle and thorn in the eye. Now imagine such in cheap taxi quantities, in metropoles where you need highways to get places. Make that even worse with autonomous taxis, which are WAY cheaper to operate, if indeed level 5 autonomous, and would become very numerous on any roads where they allowed, providing they get people to destinations on the same roads are normal taxis.
If you can't exceed 50 kph consistently and safely, you're just still a moped riksjah to mingle with foot traffic.

Offline adrouk

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Re: car energy consume improvements
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2023, 08:07:11 PM »
An ' autonomous city drive car/-t' is strictly legal street max. velocity limited !
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/cities-where-it-s-faster-to-walk-than-drive/
City-/sub-urban range !
In Germany,total country = rural+urban( included high-way),average velocity : 56 Km•h ! Source : ADAC

We can assume that the global car average velocity is in the 50 Km•h range !


1000 Wh battery weight ,by 500 Wh/Kg = 2 Kg

1000 Wh capacitor weight,by 100 Wh/Kg = 10 Kg

Both + energy storage monitoring system and charger

Things are just looking good when you look in this direction and it is not far from something achievable especially with the latest trend to reduce speed in cities.

Just imagine how this might look with old and banned mercury batteries and their ability to self charge when at rest. Their reversible chemistry with mercury oxide and zinc electrodes in an potassium hydroxide electrolyte is yet to be achieved by modern and modern expensive batteries