# Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

## Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: ZL on June 29, 2016, 07:37:07 PM

Title: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on June 29, 2016, 07:37:07 PM
Let’s use this thread to discuss free energy devices and their working principles, which are based on generating excess energy from electromagnetic waves. Those who know a little bit of physics (or even better, about radio wave propagation, or acoustics) have surely heard about the superposition of waves, which is also called interference. This is the basic principle of excess energy generation in wave fields. The nature offers it to us on a silver platter, ready for exploitation, if there were only enough serious people to notice, and take it.

The coherent waves of identical frequency and polarization propagating in the same direction behave in a very peculiar manner when they meet. Their individual amplitudes will be added together and the amplitude of the resultant wave will be the sum of the input waves’ amplitudes. If we use the following notation for this post:

Er – amplitude of the electric field intensity of the resultant wave
E1 – amplitude of the electric field intensity of the first input wave
E2 – amplitude of the electric field intensity of the second input wave
P – power of the wave

then the amplitude of the resultant wave can be calculated as:

Er = E1+E2.

Why is this peculiar? Because according to the law of energy conservation this should not be so! If we would want to enforce the validity of this fictitious “law”, then the amplitude of the resultant wave supposed to be the square root of the sum of the input-amplitudes-squared. This may sound a bit complicated written as text, so let me write it as a formula in a more compact form:

Er = Sqr(E12+E22) which is of course wrong, because nature does not behave this way.

Nature likes the first formula better, which should be exciting news (or old, but unrecognized fact) for the free energy researchers, and for everybody else as well. Why is this so exciting and liberating? Because, the energy content of wave is proportional to the amplitude squared P ~ E2; instead of being linearly proportional to the amplitude only. When two waves meet and merge into one resultant wave then the energy of the output wave can be calculated this way:

Pr ~ Er2
Pr ~ (E1+E2)2
Pr ~ E12+E22+2E1E2

The E12 is the power of the first input wave
The E22 is the power of the second input wave

Therefore, the law of energy and power conservation would be valid only, if these two components would exist only, and there would be no third component. But due to the rules of mathematics there is this third “magic” power component of the resultant wave, the 2E1E2, which represents the excess free energy or power that nature offers us for utilization. This is a brilliant example of a gem hidden in plain sight, what nobody seems to notice, because it is there for everybody to see, but nobody cares.

Janos Vajda a Hungarian electrical civil engineer who worked in radio locator development for the military forces has recognized this already in the second part of the twentieth century, and has written a thorough scientific paper, proving the existence of excess energy when electromagnetic waves are superposed. This paper has been printed in 1998 as a booklet titled “AZ ENERGIATÉTEL SÉRÜLÉSE HULLÁMTEREKBEN”, (in English: VIOLATION OF THE LAW OF ENERGY CONSERVATION IN WAVE FIELDS). The English translation of the book can be downloaded from my website for free.

The book is a scientific paper, and not a very easy reading for most people, but there is a simplified explanation of its content on my website for the general public as well. Based on the book, some researchers might think that it is only theory, which has nothing to do with the practice, but nothing is further from the truth.

Mr. Vajda has recognized the natural and spontaneous generation of this excess energy in practice first, then he went on to prove its existence in theory as well, and then finally returned again to the practice, to use it in free energy generators. He has invented a free energy generator based on this principle, and applied for a Hungarian patent P96 01424 titled “Berendezés többletenergia előállítására és hasznosítására elektromágneses hullámoknál.” (in English: “Apparatus for Producing and Utilizing Excess Energy with Electromagnetic Waves”).

As you would expect with real free energy inventions, the patent application was denied. Mr. Vajda sued the patent office, and lost the court case. Then he appealed to the Supreme Court, but after many years of fight, which also consumed a lot of money, he has been cheated again, and lost that court case as well. A more comprehensive story about this can be read on my website, from where you can also download the original Hungarian patent application for free.

For those who would like to read an English translation of the patent application, it can be ordered on this page:

The Patent Application HU9601424A2 of Janos Vajda
„Apparatus for Producing and Utilizing Excess Energy with Electromagnetic Waves”

https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/the-patent-application-hu9601424a2-of-janos-vajda/

The website has been recently updated, some images added, text changed, and this new article added. It can be reached via the following domain names as well (although only as redirect, for now):

http://feprinciples.tk
http://freeenergyprinciples.tk

New content will be added periodically as time and resources permit, so stay tuned, and check back for future updates.

There is a related old thread on this forum at:
http://overunity.com/3068/the-return-of-the-hungarian-free-energy-from-wave-fields/#.V3P-dU-uAtU

with an inappropriate title, and a lot of unnecessary guess work, so it is better to start this new thread and perhaps a new category of FE devices/principles.

The excess energy generating principle of wave superposition or interference is not applicable only to electromagnetic waves, but also to any type of waves. It can be used for the design of acoustic FE devices (which was my focus for some years), using the medium of gasses, liquids, or even solids. It is applicable to the surface waves of liquids as well, like that of the ocean waves. The title of this thread attempts to limit this discussion to electromagnetic waves, only in order to focus the subject into manageable channels, and not to scatter our attention too much. New threads can be opened for the other similar categories of wave fields when sufficient interest emerges.

Zoltán Losonc

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: FatBird on June 30, 2016, 12:08:20 AM
Please post a schematic or wiring diagram.
Or post a Link so we can see a schematic or wiring diagram.

Thank you.
.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on June 30, 2016, 09:07:53 AM
Thanks for letting me know, that the link for downloading the original patent application was broken on my web page. It has been fixed now.

There is not only one Figure, but 14 of them, because the device has got several alternative variants.
Few sample figures can be viewed on the page:

https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/the-patent-application-hu9601424a2-of-janos-vajda/

https://feprinciples.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/hu9601424a2.pdf

Of course, they can be found in the English version as well...  ;)
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: forest on June 30, 2016, 06:55:34 PM
Post video of working device like Kapanadze did  :P
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on June 30, 2016, 09:20:14 PM
Forest,

Are you giving me orders what I should do?  :o
Because this post of yours is doing exactly that… Where is the magic word “please”?

And, by the way, even after I have described in detail which principle generates excess energy in our systems, you proudly contradicted it with this comment of yours (in the other thread):

Quote
„The excess of energy is never the interference of fields, it's the excess of magnetic field generated by whatever reason which by induction is converted to electric power - is the source.”

Now my friend, if you know these things better than Janos and me, then what do you want with the video? You don’t need it! You can just simply put your genius into practice, build your own favorite FE generator, and make your own video.

Also, please don’t compare our work with that of Kapanadze! It’s like comparing apples to oranges. Our stuff is real, while the Kapanadze sensation is a well organized disinfo campaign perpetuated by the energy cartel. Just like the Milkovic pump with the double oscillator, and the recent high profile scam of Keshe.

To everybody:
I have promised to post the video, and I keep my promises. Just there were more important things to finish first, like the translation of the patent, and some other research that is going on in the background, which is not publicized. The video I intended to post is about 1h 15’ long, and about 3.5GB size. Not exactly for Youtube. Not by its content, and not by its size either.

If I would post the whole thing on Youtube, a brick might fall on my head while walking on the street… So I will make a short clip that shows some useful information, and create subs to translate the Hungarian speech for Youtube. Those who want the complete video with English subs should order it from me on DVD, but that will not be free. I am not giving away my work for free anymore on this project, because then I would end up broke and could not share any more info with the serious people, who are willing to put their money where their mouth is. And the only reason for my presence here and generally on the internet is to give useful information to those select few, who take this subject seriously enough to invest their work and money into it. Nothing of value is really free, someone has to pay for it. Those who are looking for free entertainment and hobby can continue to enjoy the show of Kapanadze, Milkovic, and Keshe.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: rakarskiy on February 13, 2017, 12:31:10 PM

Fuelless power generator in the palm

Translation from Russian: From the description below the video
Quote
To any appreciable amount of energy we had to cross the Helmholtz coil Tesla coil.
As a result, an alternative energy source prototype was built for the mobile phone.
The oscillation circuit has a distributed capacitance, so do not need capacitors. Capacitors for trimming system, Baluns, most of these schemes with the exception of.
In order to activate the desired primary pulse generator, but I deliberately refused from the auxiliary power source to the magneto to an auxiliary source of energy is not suspicious.
Тhe electrical circuit removes power from the circuit-switched portions and converts it into direct current.
Free energy generator can operate on different types of loads.
To demonstrate the operation of the generator as a charging device, a standard USB connector is enclosed in charge.
The prototype generates a current of 150 mA at a voltage of 5 volts. If such a generator in order to make a more compact and integrated into a mobile phone or a tablet, it can be used for charging the clock.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: Zephir on February 13, 2017, 09:46:10 PM
Quote
The energy content of wave is proportional to the amplitude squared P ~ E^2. When two waves meet and merge in constructive interference, their amplitude will be doubled, so that their energy will get P ~ E1^2+E2^2+2E1*E2
Thank you Zoltan for your interesting input! But it also means, that if we put a light impulse between two parallel mirrors, i.e. the resonator, then the energy should attenuate itself during each reflection followed with constructive interference ad infinitum. Which is apparently what doesn't happen there.

Analogously, if I would split a laser beam and then merge the wo beams together in phase, then we will have constructive interference everywhere. But if their fields are summed their power is multiplied by 4. How do we get 4 times the energy from merging two beams?

The answer is, the beams are coming in from different directions, if they aren't actually the same beam. That inevitably leads to a mixture of constructive and destructive interference. That means, during constructive interference of two waves the energy gets really amplified in certain direction(s), but it also gets attenuated in another ones, with the overall result obeying conservation of energy.

Quote
The skeptics might say that the above determined violations of the energy conservation are valid only locally for that small volume. But since in practical cases it is not possible to satisfy the same conditions for the whole space at the same time, the relative phase relationships would change significantly for different coordinates of the space. Therefore while gaining excess of energy in some places, we would lose the same amount at other places, and if the total energy balance would be calculated for the whole space, then the law of energy conservation would remain valid. This explanation is, however wrong and it can be disproved easily with careful and exact calculations even for practical cases, as Mr. Vajda has done it in his study Energy_From_Wave_Fields_1.2.pdf

Nope, it's (nearly) perfectly correct and it can be demonstrated with simple physical simulations.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 14, 2017, 06:35:12 PM
Thank you Zoltan for your interesting input! But it also means, that if we put a light impulse between two parallel mirrors, i.e. the resonator, then the energy should attenuate itself during each reflection followed with constructive interference ad infinitum. Which is apparently what doesn't happen there.

Analogously, if I would split a laser beam and then merge the wo beams together in phase, then we will have constructive interference everywhere. But if their fields are summed their power is multiplied by 4. How do we get 4 times the energy from merging two beams?

The answer is, the beams are coming in from different directions, if they aren't actually the same beam. That inevitably leads to a mixture of constructive and destructive interference. That means, during constructive interference of two waves the energy gets really amplified in certain direction(s), but it also gets attenuated in another ones, with the overall result obeying conservation of energy.

Nope, it's (nearly) perfectly correct and it can be demonstrated with simple physical simulations.

Hi, can you please elaborate on how it can be demonstrated?
I don't mind trying this, if its not too  hard.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 14, 2017, 06:36:33 PM

Fuelless power generator in the palm

Translation from Russian: From the description below the video

I couldn't find the actual description of making this, do you know where?
Thanks
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: Zephir on February 14, 2017, 11:14:14 PM
Hi, can you please elaborate on how it can be demonstrated?
I don't mind trying this, if its not too  hard.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 14, 2017, 11:39:19 PM

Works well for one string.
How do I add a second string oscillations to combine them?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: rakarskiy on February 15, 2017, 07:57:53 AM
I couldn't find the actual description of making this, do you know where?
Thanks
Unfortunately, I do not speak enough English to communicate.
Translation mechanical.  Page author http://oldoctober.com/ru/fuelless_generator/

http://oldoctober.com/pics/energy/fuelless_generator/06.jpg (http://oldoctober.com/pics/energy/fuelless_generator/06.jpg)

Quote
As a child, I was addicted to the construction of the radio detector. E was expensive, and not all of them can be easily found on sale.
The first variable capacitor (variable capacitor capacitance) I made of tin from a tin can. Experimenting with a coil, a capacitor and germanium diodes, I was able to get a strange effect.
At some point, the volume of the headphone signal increased dramatically. Thus, after disconnecting the antenna signal level, it is still quite high. Quickly connect the antenna to the receiver, which leads to increased signal receiver.
Friends and parents were surprised and advised to take this miracle to school to show the teacher of physics. However, attempts to turn upon a fixed receiver in a portable embodiment, the effect disappears, then it was unable to obtain.
A year ago, I returned to the subject and tried to implement such a project is based on a modern element base and the effect described above.
Indeed, in order to get enough that a significant amount of energy needed to connect effect: Rings + Helmholtz coil Tesla.
As a result, alternative energy source, the prototype was built for a mobile phone.
An oscillating circuit has a capping inductors, so that a capacitor is not necessary, in addition to the circuit system of coordination.
In order to activate the desired primary pulse generator, but I deliberately refused to deliver an additional channel for charitable purposes Magneto that the auxiliary source of energy is not suspicious.
Schematic diagram robs energy from the circuit switched domains, and converts it into direct current.
To demonstrate the operation of the generator as a battery charger, standard USB socket has been set wages.
The prototype generates a current of 150 mA at 5 V voltage. If we do the same, and more compact generator is installed in a mobile phone or tablet, it can be used indefinitely for the battery charging.

Since December 2015, Moscow Seeker CE Alexander Mishin offered medical devices based on capacitive switching flat bifilar Tesla Coil. Switched capacitor coil with sinusoidal alternating current as a result emits electrical, electromagnetic and caisson. Since the end of 2015, there is evidence of successful treatment of individual cases and the lack of treatment effect.

For example bifilar coil included in the circuit as a capacitor. Served voltage 12V 0.5A AC. On the free ends of the bifilar coil is measured by 600V AC. The current in the circuit is not changed for the field, it's amazing.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 15, 2017, 11:01:13 AM
The answer is, the beams are coming in from different directions, if they aren't actually the same beam. That inevitably leads to a mixture of constructive and destructive interference. That means, during constructive interference of two waves the energy gets really amplified in certain direction(s), but it also gets attenuated in another ones, with the overall result obeying conservation of energy.

Nope, it's (nearly) perfectly correct and it can be demonstrated with simple physical simulations.

Nope, it has been mathematically and scientifically proven in Mr. Vajda’s book that the law of energy conservation can be violated in wave fields. Obviously you have either not read the book, and/or you could not understand it. Whichever the case is, it makes your comment just an arrogant and incompetent personal opinion. You are only replaying a broken record like an old gramophone. If you want to debunk the principle, then you have to point out exactly where the error is in Mr. Vajda’s book which proves, that the law of energy conservation has no general validity in wave fields.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 15, 2017, 11:25:09 AM
Works well for one string.
How do I add a second string oscillations to combine them?

Telecom, my advice is: don’t waste your time on that nonsense! It is not that simple. You can not produce the phenomenon on a simple sting driven at one end :-)) This is a serious subject that you can not grasp and realize in practice unless you learn the necessary prerequisite knowledge. If you are serious about your intent to invest time and effort in this research, then send me a PM and I will let you know where to start, what to learn, and which experiments to perform.

About the fuelless generator posted by rakarskiy, that is almost certainly a hoax to deceive, and spread disinformation. It has nothing to do with this thread; so then why did he post it here? Why not in his own thread? Or at least why not in one of the Tesla related threads? Well, the obvious reason is that his intent is to associate our work with hoaxes, so that people who would get fooled by their hoax, should say that our principles are the same hoax. The standard disinfo technique of the energy cartel; there is nothing new there.

By the way, the website at http://oldoctober.com/ru/fuelless_generator/ is hosted in Amsterdam, which is already curious, assuming that the inventor is Russian who does not speak English… Why is it not hosted in Russia? Why do they not disclose at least the exact principle that supposed to produce excess energy (or the schematic of the device)? Because hoaxes are built on mysteries, and promises that will never be fulfilled.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: rakarskiy on February 15, 2017, 12:57:56 PM
Quote
By the way, the website at http://oldoctober.com/ru/fuelless_generator/ is hosted in Amsterdam, which is already curious, assuming that the inventor is Russian who does not speak English… Why is it not hosted in Russia? Why do they not disclose at least the exact principle that supposed to produce excess energy (or the schematic of the device)? Because hoaxes are built on mysteries, and promises that will never be fulfilled.

Does the author in English? unknown.
Author on your forum the same site made it clear that he wants to sell. This video information.
To the device has an electrical system of the Helmholtz resonator. Tesla Coil also protects the cavity of the Helmholtz resonator. This is where the wave increases many times. It removes pulses partially charge a mobile phone.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: pomodoro on February 15, 2017, 02:03:44 PM
What happens with the formula when you have destructive interference?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 16, 2017, 01:50:46 PM
What happens with the formula when you have destructive interference?

If you read and understand the explanations of the principle on my website (and/or Mr. Vajda’s book) you will understand that the energy balance is symmetrical. In the same way (and for the same reason) as excess energy can be generated based on constructive wave superposition, energy can also be destroyed when destructive interference is used instead. If this would not be so, then the universe would be extremely unbalanced, and we would most probably not exists in human form at all.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: pomodoro on February 16, 2017, 02:34:27 PM
A quick read on the net shows that when two equal amplitude sound waves add they double in amplitude yet their power level only goes up by 6dB, which is 4x , just as expected, not any higher. Doubt this secret gas been hidden so long.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 16, 2017, 02:52:52 PM
A quick read on the net shows that when two equal amplitude sound waves add they double in amplitude yet their power level only goes up by 6dB, which is 4x , just as expected, not any higher. Doubt this secret gas been hidden so long.

Why don’t you cite your reference? Is it a secret? Or are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
I don’t see any sign of logical thinking in your post.

The 4x resultant output power is exactly what I would predict as well, and exactly what proves the invalidity of the law of energy conservation in wave fields.

Let me spoon feed it for you: 2 units of power enter the system and after constructive superposition 4 units of power leave the system. The power gain is 4[W]out/2[W]in=2. We have gained twice as much power at the output as it has entered at the input.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: conradelektro on February 16, 2017, 03:12:07 PM
For some (probably valid) reasons our goodman ZL and the originator Mr. Vajda are not able or willing to do more experiments or to build a prototype device providing excess energy.

So, we are stuck with words and personal opinions. Very unsatisfying situation and no conclusion in sight (like always). If one wants to contradict long established research the evidence has to be very strong and a working device seems to be the only way out. And exactly the working device is always missing when so called OU claims are made.

Lets's be grateful that nature does not allow OU. It would be the end of earth. Greedy and power hungry individuals would create a runaway situation causing incredible destruction. All military forces would try to outdo the enemy with excess energy. And almost all good people would waste energy like mad if it were available in abundance and very cheaply. Too much harm to the environment is done already by almost everybody even without OU devices. (I am no exception, unfortunately.)

OU is basically a runaway situation. A closed loop would create energy without bounds.

P.S.: I suspect ZL wants to advertise books or CDs and therefore he brings up the subject in certain Intervalls.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: pomodoro on February 16, 2017, 04:26:58 PM

Just one of many similar sites.
Link is somehow not quite right but a google search will find it. Can't be bothered working out what I did wrong. Took 20 MIns alread
On stupid phone trying to edid.

By amplitude I referring to E in your formulas. So Power out is the two input powers added. No extra .
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: dieter on February 17, 2017, 06:07:47 AM
I tried downloading the magyar patent, but this opened a webpage, trying to sell me a led telly.

So what's the deal?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 17, 2017, 02:42:09 PM
Quote
I tried downloading the magyar patent, but this opened a webpage, trying to sell me a led telly.

Pomodoro, the pdf you have linked is too primitive to give you any decent insight into the subject. I have explained the subject in much more detail on the page:
https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/how-to-gain-free-energy-from-wave-fields-simplified-explanation/
If you are unable to understand what is written on that page and realize that the resultant output power is greater than the input power, then you are completely hopeless in this field of research. This field is just simply not for you, and I will not waste any time on trying to further explain it to you.

Conrad, you are obviously a disinfo agent of the establishment with an agenda to discredit and debunk any development in FE research, so I didn’t expect anything positive or useful from you.
But this overt brainwashing propaganda of yours is nasty and ignorant beyond words:

Lets's be grateful that nature does not allow OU. It would be the end of earth. Greedy and power hungry individuals would create a runaway situation causing incredible destruction. All military forces would try to outdo the enemy with excess energy. And almost all good people would waste energy like mad if it were available in abundance and very cheaply. Too much harm to the environment is done already by almost everybody even without OU devices. (I am no exception, unfortunately.)

This is like saying that guns, knives, screwdrivers, hammers, and even water etc. should all be banned, because evil people could use these tools to kill others. More correctly, it is like the global mafia who already use these tools to kill others and extort money, are sending their agents to brainwash their victims not to have these tools in their possessions (because they could use them for self defense against the mafia gang, and for self sufficiency).

The harm to the environment is done by the establishment who control the system of education and programs the young minds into thinking in wasteful and erroneous ways. As soon as this is corrected, a completely sane and spiritually mature society can be created. The destruction is done by the money masters who force a certain wasteful and selfish consumer way of life on people, keeping them in constant slavery to the money, which they control. In a society where food and other resources are plenty and easily accessible for all, people gladly share things with others. It is only scarcity and fear of not having enough, that make people selfish and evil. I could go on highlighting the problems of today’s society and power structure, and those responsible for it, but that would belong into a forum about politics and philosophy, not here.

There is indeed a very good reason why I have not published the detailed schematic of a working FE generator yet, and those with an IQ above room temperature will understand it, and be grateful for the information I have published so far, instead of picking on, and demanding what I have not given yet.

You are not stuck with mere opinions. What Mr. Vajda and I have shared is cutting edge science not just an opinion. If you are unable to understand it, then you are not qualified to criticize. As long as you can not point out exactly where the error is in Vajda’s book, your diatribe is only an incompetent personal opinion. Mr. Vajda has built at least two different FE generators based on the disclosed principles. One according to his patent application design, using antennas within a closed reflector domain, and the other based on waveguides and microwave devices.

Of course you and the other gang members will (and already have) come with the provocation “Show me! Or else we will laugh at you, and worse!” :-)) Now come one people, grow up! I don’t give a damn about such demands and provocations. More information will be shared when the time gets ripe, but not right now. Until then, people who are sufficiently intelligent and have sufficient relevant knowledge can use the revealed science to develop their own FE devices based on the principle of wave superposition. There are hundreds and thousands of different possible FE devices and inventions that can be built on this principle alone.

Quote
P.S.: I suspect ZL wants to advertise books or CDs and therefore he brings up the subject in certain Intervalls.

Again a glowing example of your malicious intent to discredit and smear. First of all, this thread was hibernated and happily sleeping since June 30, 2016. I did not care to post, because I have nothing new to share at this time, and nothing much to sell either (except the patent translation for now). The only reason for me posting again is the disinfo campaign started by rakarskiy posted in this thread on February 13, 2017. Since this thread was started by me and concerns our research, I feel responsible for warning readers who are not part of the disinfo gang about the real malicious nature of the recent postings in this thread and their real agenda.

By the way, this forum is not fit for any serious FE discussions, because the obvious disinfo agents are allowed to run rampant and contaminate, confuse, discredit, and basically destroy any constructive discussion. Only the threads of hopeless FE ideas are (relatively) left alone, because they serve the same agenda to confuse and mislead. This forum is good only for announcements at the most. When it comes the time for serious collaboration, I will have to start my own forum, where I can keep the unwanted elements out.

As soon as I will have some new product to sell or new info to share, I will announce it proudly on my own without any provocation. And by the way, it is not a shame or evil to sell a product, book, service, or useful information! It is a decent exchange of service and work between parties. Are you ashamed to pick up your salary for your work, or accept money for a product you created? Some people really have awkward expectations, and a weird way of thinking! Those who don’t need what I have to offer, or don’t value it, should not buy it (or if free just ignore it). As simple as that.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: rakarskiy on February 17, 2017, 03:03:47 PM
A little bit of thought. On close examination there is no trick.
supercapacitors or other elements, such as a hidden power source is not visible

possible arrangement of the oscillatory circuit. (http://x-faq.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4204.0;attach=52121;image)
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 17, 2017, 03:36:23 PM
A little bit of thought. On close examination there is no trick.
supercapacitors or other elements, such as a hidden power source is not visible

possible arrangement of the oscillatory circuit. (http://x-faq.ru/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4204.0;attach=52121;image)

rakarskiy,

There is a possibility that the device is energy harvesting RF from a nearby source although the reported output power of .75 watts seems high if this is the case.

Regarding your schematic look closely at the number of flat coil leads attached to the circuit board.  There are a total of 10 not 8 meaning there are five coils not four. It appears that the inside coil closest to the circuit board components is bifilar wound but the outside coil is trifilar wound.

Also, the two "K" type tunnel diodes and trimmer caps would seem to indicate there are two finely tuned negative resistance oscillators.

Just some observations.

pm

Edit:
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 17, 2017, 03:39:27 PM

People, don't get deceived by this rakarskiy deception! It is a hoax. It does not belong to this thread. The very fact of getting it posted here without any connection reveals its malicious intent to destroy this thread, and bury the real discovery that I have shared.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 17, 2017, 03:45:33 PM

People, don't get deceived by this rakarskiy deception! It is a hoax. It does not belong to this thread. The very fact of getting it posted here without any connection reveals its malicious intent to destroy this thread, and bury the real discovery that I have shared.

ZL,

Sorry for encouraging with my previous post and I will refrain from any more comments on your thread.

pm
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: pomodoro on February 17, 2017, 05:55:10 PM
What you don't seem to understand is that in the action of adding the two waves that the impedance they look into is doubled as well.  Individually  two identical ,coherent sine waves from separate sine generators of 2V RMS with 1ohm resistors supply= 2x2/1= 4W each =8W total. Now stack generators in series, we get the 4V RMS but 2ohm load instead. = 4x4/2 =8W. No power gain.  You  don't even  need to make this circuit physically to understand how these waves add together and also see that the load doubles too.

Your formulas here have no load transformation, which you need to include since you are talking of power before and after mixing. Power? well you need loads not just voltage.
Good luck dude, not wasting my breath on your thread no more.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 18, 2017, 03:12:16 PM
What you don't seem to understand is that in the action of adding the two waves that the impedance they look into is doubled as well.

Typical weird thinking and talking of establishment shills. You haven’t got a clue about the science of EM waves but you dare to accuse us of not understanding wave superposition! :-)) The wave superposition that Mr. Vajda and I have discussed in the published material is accomplished in free space which has got a constant wave impedance of about 377 Ohms for EM waves at any point. The impedance of space where the two wave components enter the examined volume in far field is the same as the impedance of space where the resultant wave exits the volume. There is no doubling of any impedance here!

Quote
Individually two identical, coherent sine waves from separate sine generators of 2V RMS with 1ohm resistors supply= 2x2/1= 4W each =8W total. Now stack generators in series, we get the 4V RMS but 2ohm load instead. = 4x4/2 =8W. No power gain. You don't even need to make this circuit physically to understand how these waves add together and also see that the load doubles too.

Hahaha… You made my day! Now come one sonny! Are you really this ignorant, or you just pretend to be? A simple AC circuit that you are discussing here is not adding any EM waves together! There is no wave superposition in your circuit at all. In order to generate excess energy, first of all you must generate EM waves. And I mean real waves, not just sinusoidally changing voltages and currents. Apparently you can not even differentiate AC voltages and currents from EM waves, then how did you come to the idea to criticize the principle in the arrogant manner you did? Simply mind boggling!

If one could generate excess energy by simply connecting AC sources and loads in series (or parallel, or in any arbitrary combination) do you really think Mr. Vajda would waste his time, work and money on developing relatively complicated wave chambers and antenna systems depicted in his patent application? Would it not be much more simple and cheaper to just connect two AC sources and two loads as you have described?

Quote
Good luck dude, not wasting my breath on your thread no more.

Good riddance! Please keep your promise and don’t post in my threads, thanks! When someone knows what he is doing he does not need any luck. You need luck apparently because you haven’t got a clue, and you assume that I must be as ignorant as you are too. All I need is time and money; luck is not a factor in this research.

To everyone: It is not a sin to be ignorant about a subject, as long as one acts in a humble way knowing his limitations. I am also trying to be patient with such people, and explain things multiple times in different ways, because things can be learned by positively minded people who are really eager to learn. But when ignorance is combined with arrogance, and pride, and attacking real science with stupid arguments like pomodoro and other disinfo shills do, then I have no more patience for them. They should get what they deserve.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 18, 2017, 04:17:16 PM
Typical weird thinking and talking of establishment shills. You haven’t got a clue about the science of EM waves but you dare to accuse us of not understanding wave superposition! :-)) The wave superposition that Mr. Vajda and I have discussed in the published material is accomplished in free space which has got a constant wave impedance of about 377 Ohms for EM waves at any point. The impedance of space where the two wave components enter the examined volume in far field is the same as the impedance of space where the resultant wave exits the volume. There is no doubling of any impedance here!

Hahaha… You made my day! Now come one sonny! Are you really this ignorant, or you just pretend to be? A simple AC circuit that you are discussing here is not adding any EM waves together! There is no wave superposition in your circuit at all. In order to generate excess energy, first of all you must generate EM waves. And I mean real waves, not just sinusoidally changing voltages and currents. Apparently you can not even differentiate AC voltages and currents from EM waves, then how did you come to the idea to criticize the principle in the arrogant manner you did? Simply mind boggling!

By generating EM waves you mean the way they were generated by Hertz with
a capacitor as  dipole?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 19, 2017, 01:43:35 PM
By generating EM waves you mean the way they were generated by Hertz with
a capacitor as  dipole?

EM (electromagnetic) waves can be generated in several different ways. One way is using a dipole antenna which is basically a non-conventional open capacitor. But they can be generated also by monopole antennas, loop antennas, magnetrons, etc. and even by a simple electrostatic dipole if it is mechanically shaken at a high enough frequency.

The discussed FE principle which is based on wave superposition is valid for any type of waves, not only for EM waves. It can be implemented in acoustics in gases, liquids, and solids as well. It can be utilized for surface waves too.

If you are not already proficient in electromagnetics, especially in RF, or in acoustics, there is very little likelihood that you (or anybody else without knowing the basics) can design a practically useful FE generator based on this principle. For laymen it is very difficult to progress in RF and acoustics, because you can not see the waves and how they behave. One must use specialized instruments and have the necessary background knowledge. Waves often behave quite counter intuitively, so this is not as simple as fiddling with mechanical devices, or simple low frequency electronics.

In such case you could chose one of the following options:

1)   Go ahead and learn the necessary background knowledge and become competent to invent and design your own FE generators. It will surely look daunting if you take a look at how much one has to learn, but in small chunks in a year or two one can get up to speed to do something meaningful.
2)   Wait until someone you trust publishes a working design with detailed instruction how to make it. In that case you will not have to really understand how and why it works. If the design is correct and you have built the design without errors, then it should work. In this case you are a technician, and you depend on the designer for knowledge. It is also a big question when (if ever) such detailed design will be published on the internet… You are also a target for hoaxters who will offer fake designs to waste your time, money and hope, and frustrate anybody in this category.
3)   If your aim is only entertainment, and you are happy just visually studying the principle, even if that may not lead to practically useful FE devices, then you can focus on surface waves instead. You still have to learn some basics to know what you are doing, and know what to expect from your devices, but in this field you can get away with much less knowledge than in RF and acoustics. You can also construct relatively low tech and not too expensive models, which let you see what the waves are doing. You can also perform measurements with cheaper equipment.
4)   Conclude that this subject of wave science is too difficult for you, leave it to others, and spend your free time with other more simple activities.

The gist of the message is that if you are serious about this subject, you have to acquire a decent level of background knowledge to achieve anything worthwhile. But if you persevere, the final reward for your studies can get beyond your imagination. The above advices are meant for everybody, not just for you.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 20, 2017, 06:58:25 PM
EM (electromagnetic) waves can be generated in several different ways. One way is using a dipole antenna which is basically a non-conventional open capacitor. But they can be generated also by monopole antennas, loop antennas, magnetrons, etc. and even by a simple electrostatic dipole if it is mechanically shaken at a high enough frequency.

The discussed FE principle which is based on wave superposition is valid for any type of waves, not only for EM waves. It can be implemented in acoustics in gases, liquids, and solids as well. It can be utilized for surface waves too.

If you are not already proficient in electromagnetics, especially in RF, or in acoustics, there is very little likelihood that you (or anybody else without knowing the basics) can design a practically useful FE generator based on this principle. For laymen it is very difficult to progress in RF and acoustics, because you can not see the waves and how they behave. One must use specialized instruments and have the necessary background knowledge. Waves often behave quite counter intuitively, so this is not as simple as fiddling with mechanical devices, or simple low frequency electronics.

In such case you could chose one of the following options:

1)   Go ahead and learn the necessary background knowledge and become competent to invent and design your own FE generators. It will surely look daunting if you take a look at how much one has to learn, but in small chunks in a year or two one can get up to speed to do something meaningful.
2)   Wait until someone you trust publishes a working design with detailed instruction how to make it. In that case you will not have to really understand how and why it works. If the design is correct and you have built the design without errors, then it should work. In this case you are a technician, and you depend on the designer for knowledge. It is also a big question when (if ever) such detailed design will be published on the internet… You are also a target for hoaxters who will offer fake designs to waste your time, money and hope, and frustrate anybody in this category.
3)   If your aim is only entertainment, and you are happy just visually studying the principle, even if that may not lead to practically useful FE devices, then you can focus on surface waves instead. You still have to learn some basics to know what you are doing, and know what to expect from your devices, but in this field you can get away with much less knowledge than in RF and acoustics. You can also construct relatively low tech and not too expensive models, which let you see what the waves are doing. You can also perform measurements with cheaper equipment.
4)   Conclude that this subject of wave science is too difficult for you, leave it to others, and spend your free time with other more simple activities.

The gist of the message is that if you are serious about this subject, you have to acquire a decent level of background knowledge to achieve anything worthwhile. But if you persevere, the final reward for your studies can get beyond your imagination. The above advices are meant for everybody, not just for you.
Hi Zoltan, I want to do 1 and 3.
How do you suggest to proceed - which books to read about the waves?
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 20, 2017, 09:52:42 PM
Hi Zoltan, I want to do 1 and 3.
How do you suggest to proceed - which books to read about the waves?
Regards

It depends on many factors, like your present level of knowledge of key subjects, mathematics, physics, mechanics etc. and what level of knowledge you want to gain how fast? I have asked these questions in my reply to your email enquiry, but you did not respond yet. Did you receive my email?

As a starter and motivator here is a brilliant introduction into wave science:

This is a classic video and I highly recommend you (and everybody interested) to download it and keep it in your archives. It is not so much what he teaches that is so excellent (the same can be found in books as well), but rather the way he does that. His love and respect for the science of waves, his enthusiasm, and pedantic style of presentation will hopefully plant the seed of his spirit in your mind. If you water that seed regularly with daily lectures and problem solving exercises, then finally you will end up with an unshakable big tree of knowledge. I have got some more links, but need your feedback first.

To everybody: learning is more fun and easier in groups, where students can help each other. If there are at least 10 people who would be interested in studying any form of wave science we could set up a special forum just for that purpose (not here). I don’t promise to personally teach everybody, but I could chime in occasionally and suggest resources and solutions. The primary character of such forum would be “students teach and help other students”, or at least motivate each other to make learning fun and not a burdensome chore.

If anybody is interested, drop me a message via the contact form on my site:
https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/contact/

(don’t use the PM system of this forum, because a PM that was sent to me here has disappeared)

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 20, 2017, 10:47:02 PM
Hi Zoltan,
Will gladly look at the video.
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 21, 2017, 03:45:30 PM
Will gladly look at the video.

Alex, I hope you liked the previous video “Similiarities of Wave Behavior”.

Here is another nice demonstration:
Ripple Tank Diffraction and Interference of Waves

You can use the same applet he used in the demonstration to perform simulation experiments here:

Some more nice applets that you may find useful later on:

And some more useful videos from the same author on different physics topics:

If you want to pursue surface waves, then you will need to know all mechanics related material on the list as well and more. Of course the resources suggested so far are only for introduction, and they are only like the letter A in the alphabet. We can talk about the rest via email, tailored to your present level of knowledge and goals.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 21, 2017, 03:57:35 PM
............

As a starter and motivator here is a brilliant introduction into wave science:

This is a classic video and I highly recommend you (and everybody interested) to download it and keep it in your archives. It is not so much what he teaches that is so excellent (the same can be found in books as well), but rather the way he does that. His love and respect for the science of waves, his enthusiasm, and pedantic style of presentation will hopefully plant the seed of his spirit in your mind. If you water that seed regularly with daily lectures and problem solving exercises, then finally you will end up with an unshakable big tree of knowledge. I have got some more links, but need your feedback first.

............

ZL,

I have a question regarding the video above.  At the 3:45 minute mark in the video the author states the reflected wave from an open ended transmission line is a "Reflected replica of it's original self".  This is not an entirely correct statement as the reflected wave in an open ideal transmission line is a replica of the original with 2x amplitude.

This is easily demonstrated as in the attached LtSpice sim.  The half sine input pulse is shown in the plot with a 2v offset for clarity and the 10Meg resistor R1 is needed to allow convergence of the sim.

Is this not correct?

pm

Edit: It might also be noted that the open mechanical transmission line used in the video does not reflect a 2x amplitude wave.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 21, 2017, 06:17:47 PM
At the 3:45 minute mark in the video the author states the reflected wave from an open ended transmission line is a "Reflected replica of it's original self".  This is not an entirely correct statement as the reflected wave in an open ideal transmission line is a replica of the original with 2x amplitude.

Are you sure about that? It sounds like you pose as an authority who is competent to debunk Dr. J.N. Shive and his explanation. This also implies that you consider his video and/or wave machine to be a deception, since we can clearly see on the video that the reflected wave’s amplitude is not 2x the amplitude of the incoming wave. This is a wrong attitude if you want to learn, and want people to help you.
If you set up a simulation and you see something that you don’t understand, then the right attitude is to first question yourself. Did you set up the simulation properly? If you did, then are you really measuring what you intended to measure? If yes, then do you really understand what that measured result means, and why it is as you see it?

If you are unable to find the solution, then it is OK to ask people in a humble manner, like: “…Here is what I did, but don’t understand the results. Did I set up the simulation correctly? If yes, then can someone please explain why I measure 2x greater amplitude than what I was expecting based on the video? Etc.”

We supposed to respect those who came before us and know (or knew) more than we do. Not all science is wrong. In fact without the body of knowledge collected about electromagnetics, mechanics, physics etc. we would not be able do design any FE machines either. It is proper to criticize science, and contradict certain rules or laws only if we really have some solid proof against it and an alternative explanation, something like what Mr. Vajda presented in his booklet. Please don’t take this personally, I point this out here only because inappropriate attitude (not specifically yours) is rampant on this forum, and a bit more humble and respectful attitude would do good to everybody.

The solution to your problem is quite simple and I am sure you can discover that yourself with some effort. And that effort will pay back abundantly, because you will discover, and learn a feature of waves, which is indeed quite counterintuitive. If I would tell you the solution right away it would spoil the point. But here are some tips for you, where to look for the solution:

Are you measuring the amplitude at the right point to get the expected amplitude? Are you sure that the Video does not show you exactly the same wave behavior as your simulation does? How about downloading the video, and playing it back frame by frame in VLC player around the critical 3:45 mark?

Ok, now I have almost given away the solution. But do you really understand why did the wave what you have observed? If you can not dispel the "mystery" even after a day or two of studying it, then I will present the explanation.

Otherwise nice LtSpice simulation Partzman! Keep up the good work; you are sailing in the right direction.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 21, 2017, 09:34:25 PM
Are you sure about that? It sounds like you pose as an authority who is competent to debunk Dr. J.N. Shive and his explanation. This also implies that you consider his video and/or wave machine to be a deception, since we can clearly see on the video that the reflected wave’s amplitude is not 2x the amplitude of the incoming wave. This is a wrong attitude if you want to learn, and want people to help you.

Firstly, I am not posing as or claiming to be any kind of expert but simply seem to see a contradiction between sources.  If I appear to come across in that manner, I apologize as I simply wish to know which is correct.

Quote

If you set up a simulation and you see something that you don’t understand, then the right attitude is to first question yourself. Did you set up the simulation properly? If you did, then are you really measuring what you intended to measure? If yes, then do you really understand what that measured result means, and why it is as you see it?

If you are unable to find the solution, then it is OK to ask people in a humble manner, like: “…Here is what I did, but don’t understand the results. Did I set up the simulation correctly? If yes, then can someone please explain why I measure 2x greater amplitude than what I was expecting based on the video? Etc.”

The sim is extremely simple but does have a fault with the conduction of current thru the capacitance of D1 on the input of the transmission line but the effect from this is negligible.  In regards to the measuring points used in the sim, I could have shown the voltage at the lower output terminal of the Tline and it would have been seen as an inverted 2x version of the input.  OTOH, if the lower output terminal was grounded, then the upper output terminal would have shown a 2x Vin non-inverted waveform.   IMO, the sim shows correct results.

Quote
We supposed to respect those who came before us and know (or knew) more than we do. Not all science is wrong. In fact without the body of knowledge collected about electromagnetics, mechanics, physics etc. we would not be able do design any FE machines either. It is proper to criticize science, and contradict certain rules or laws only if we really have some solid proof against it and an alternative explanation, something like what Mr. Vajda presented in his booklet. Please don’t take this personally, I point this out here only because inappropriate attitude (not specifically yours) is rampant on this forum, and a bit more humble and respectful attitude would do good to everybody.

I understand and agree.

Quote
The solution to your problem is quite simple and I am sure you can discover that yourself with some effort. And that effort will pay back abundantly, because you will discover, and learn a feature of waves, which is indeed quite counterintuitive. If I would tell you the solution right away it would spoil the point. But here are some tips for you, where to look for the solution:

Are you measuring the amplitude at the right point to get the expected amplitude? Are you sure that the Video does not show you exactly the same wave behavior as your simulation does? How about downloading the video, and playing it back frame by frame in VLC player around the critical 3:45 mark?

OK, I have done that and attached a png below.  It is not the best resolution but the levels can be seen for visual reference.

Quote
Ok, now I have almost given away the solution. But do you really understand why did the wave what you have observed? If you can not dispel the "mystery" even after a day or two of studying it, then I will present the explanation.

Otherwise nice LtSpice simulation Partzman! Keep up the good work; you are sailing in the right direction.

Thank you.

Well, according to conventional TL theory, when the Vin pulse in this case reaches the end of the open Tline it is un-attentuated and therefore adds to the original input voltage via superposition.  This 2x Vin waveform then begins it's reflection back to the start.  This is the 2x amplitude pulse that we see arriving back at the open start terminal at 2x the Tline delay.  Further observation would say that since we now see a 2x voltage at the input that we have 4x the power in our 50 ohm line over what we inserted initially.  Even yet more pondering might produce the question, "How can I utilize this apparent energy gain?".

pm

EDIT:  The leftmost shot of the mechanical Tline is the return wave with the middle being the start and the third is the peak of the returning wave.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: shylo on February 22, 2017, 01:28:59 AM
I'm sure you folks know how to read all the scope shots, I don't.
Place them in the right spot, use them at the right time.
Power your initial circuit, now use the reactions of that to run others.
The initial is a given, placing the secondaries is the key, That's what Tesla did, He didn't invent OU, He used every little aspect of the circuit to get the most out of it.
just saying  artv
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 22, 2017, 01:31:40 PM
In regards to the measuring points used in the sim, I could have shown the voltage at the lower output terminal of the Tline and it would have been seen as an inverted 2x version of the input.  OTOH, if the lower output terminal was grounded, then the upper output terminal would have shown a 2x Vin non-inverted waveform.   IMO, the sim shows correct results.

Well, it depends on what do you want to achieve. If you just want to fiddle with LtSpice, then that is fine, you can say that it shows the correct results for your setup. But, if you want to build a model that is analogous to the wave machine of the video (which we do want in this case), then your setup is not correct.

How do I know that? Simple clear logic: does the wave impulse ever turn negative on the video around 3:45? Does your circuit behave the same way? Forget about your Vin signal generator. Here we are interested only in the part of the circuit that models wave propagation observed in the video, which is the transmission line, because EM waves exist only in that component in the Spice model. Therefore, the input to the transmission line Vin should be measured where you measure Vr, and the output Vout should be measured at the other end of the transmission line on top terminal of R1. Please, measure these two points and change your circuit to behave the same way as the wave machine does in the video. I will reply to the rest of your last post when we get to that point in this problem solving exercise, and then we can progress and untangle the rest of the “mystery”.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 22, 2017, 04:44:06 PM
Well, it depends on what do you want to achieve. If you just want to fiddle with LtSpice, then that is fine, you can say that it shows the correct results for your setup. But, if you want to build a model that is analogous to the wave machine of the video (which we do want in this case), then your setup is not correct.

What I would like to achieve is to resolve the differences between the mechanical wave machine and the sim with the lossless Tline.  I think I may understand the main difference and will explain below.

Quote
How do I know that? Simple clear logic: does the wave impulse ever turn negative on the video around 3:45? Does your circuit behave the same way?

IMO, no to the negative going impulse and yes the sim behaves the same.

Quote
Forget about your Vin signal generator. Here we are interested only in the part of the circuit that models wave propagation observed in the video, which is the transmission line, because EM waves exist only in that component in the Spice model. Therefore, the input to the transmission line Vin should be measured where you measure Vr, and the output Vout should be measured at the other end of the transmission line on top terminal of R1. Please, measure these two points and change your circuit to behave the same way as the wave machine does in the video. I will reply to the rest of your last post when we get to that point in this problem solving exercise, and then we can progress and untangle the rest of the “mystery”.

OK, "Delay Line2" below shows the measurement points as you requested above.  At the 2.5us point in time we see the beginning of wave superposition resulting in a half sine VoHi that is 2x the original pulse input at Vr.

In regards to changing this sim to match the wave machine waveforms, I consider it impossible.  The lossless Tline model used is included in LtSpice, has an infinite number of elements, and the internals are not available to modify as least as far as I can tell.  Therefore, all that can be done is to match the Tline impedance, mis-match the impedance, open load, or shorted load.  IMO, none of these combos will match the wave machine wave forms.  However, I would be most willing to learn how this might be done.

One simulation that does resemble the wave machine more closely is the "Lossy Delay Line" seen below modeled with a limited number of elements.  There is one important key factor missing in this sim and that is the coupling factors between the inductive elements.  The definition list of all K factors needed would be quite lengthy and if they are not accurately representing a real device, the internally generated math matrix will not be correct and the sim will not converge or complete.

So, what we see is a somewhat closer resemblance to the wave machine but we have ringing with negative transitions due to the missing couplings.  The wave machine rods are coupled with the center wire torsional twist which would be analogous to the K factors of the inductors.

Therefore my current understanding is that the differences lie in the losses between the the sim and the wave machine but I'm certainly open for any criticism and/or correction.

pm

Edit: The lossy sim has an ideal switch replacing the input diode.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 22, 2017, 08:15:11 PM
Quote from: ZL
How do I know that? Simple clear logic: does the wave impulse ever turn negative on the video around 3:45? Does your circuit behave the same way?

IMO, no to the negative going impulse and yes the sim behaves the same.

The first part of your answer is correct: the impulse never turns negative on the wave machine.
But your answer to the second question is incorrect, and I wonder how is it possible that you are unable to see this. Let me quote your claims again:

Quote
In regards to the measuring points used in the sim, I could have shown the voltage at the lower output terminal of the Tline and it would have been seen as an inverted 2x version of the input.  OTOH, if the lower output terminal was grounded, then the upper output terminal would have shown a 2x Vin non-inverted waveform. IMO, the sim shows correct results.

Let us go step by step and examine all 3 options you have suggested. The first is your original setup without any modification, but measuring the output voltage (which is apparently zero), see partzman0.png below.

As you can see the output voltage Vout=0V (the blue trace) and it is really 0, not just hidden behind the green trace. If you remove the trace Vin from the diagram you can see this clearly. This setup does not model the behavior of the wave machine correctly, because there we have seen that the output sees a +2Vin when the wave arrives to the end, which in this case supposed to happen at 2.5us mark (but it does not happen in this circuit).

Your second suggestion was to measure Vout at the lower terminal of the transmission line, which produces the following result, see partzman0a.png below.

Here a negative 2xVin is present at the Vout, which again contradicts the wave machine behavior, because in the video there is no negative pulse around 3:45.

Your third suggestion was to ground the lower output terminal, which will look like this, partzman0b.png below.

The output voltage is again zero at all times (not hidden in any way). I hope that by now you can see that none of these suggestions model the behavior of the wave machine accurately.

Your answers: “IMO, the sim shows correct results” and “…yes the sim behaves the same” are wrong. What I would like to figure out is why you were unable to see this? How do you think? What kind of logic do you use to not see such obvious and trivial facts? I am not trying to pick on you here, just want to figure out the cause of faulty thinking and how to fix it. Because, many other people on this forum use similar faulty logic. I will not be around all the time to answer questions and fix errors, and others who know correct answers may not be willing to answer your questions when you need it.

Therefore instead of simply giving the complete answers to your questions right away, it is much more profitable for you if you learn to use simple clear logic, and abandon confused complicated logic. That is the only way you can hope to succeed in this field of research. Knowing the right method of finding solutions and answers is more important and more valuable than being able to regurgitate the correct answer to a specific question that you have heard from someone else. Therefore my primary aim with these posts is to highlight faulty logic and its consequences, and demonstrate simple clear logic that will let you find correct answers to your questions on your own.

Quote
In regards to changing this sim to match the wave machine waveforms, I consider it impossible…

I did not ask for exact match of wave form, but only approximately analogous behavior, which was not achieved by your first 3 circuit suggestions. Your last delay line2.png with the extra switch and additional voltage source does that. But there is no need for over complicating the circuit when it can be achieved with a tiny simple modification, by adding a piece of wire to your original circuit like this, partzman1.png below.

As you can see, now this behaves like the wave machine, there is no negative pulse anywhere, and the output is not constantly zero either, but a 2xVin shows up at the expected time of 2.5us.

Let’s not get into the lossy delay line now, because that unnecessarily complicates things, while we have to explain and understand much simpler phenomena first.

Right, so now we have resolved the first problem, namely to set up a circuit that properly models the behavior of the wave machine. Now let us focus on the next problem, which you have already started to pick apart, but concluded to be impossible. Namely, the primary purpose of the wave machine is to allow us to see into the transmission line and see the wave at different locations as it propagates in space. Only inside the transmission line can we observe the real amplitude and shape of the wave, not at the input and output. We can explain the reason for that later. Let us focus now on the goal to measure the wave amplitude inside the transmission line of your circuit. You have already said something like you think this is impossible.

But, is it really impossible? I say it is possible with some modifications, and you will be able to measure the amplitude and see the shape of the wave inside the transmission line at any point along its length not only at the input and output.

Now please use simple clear logic, and add a bit of “out of box” type of inventive thinking. If you don’t find the solution in a day or two, then I will show you, and then we can proceed further to the next “mystery”.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 22, 2017, 09:22:47 PM
ZL,

Rather than go thru your last post in detail (which I will do if necessary) I will try to clear up the confusion with brief answers.

First in answering your question about the wave machine having negative impulses I answered "no" which you found correct.  Your next question "does your circuit behave the same way?" I answered "yes" because it too has no negative going impulses with no load.  I was not intending to say that the sim performed like the wave machine.

My point all along is that my efforts of doing a simulation of an ideal Tline does not produce the same basic operation of the wave machine in regards to wave amplitudes.  It's that simple, no more, no less.

I would welcome seeing a sim using an ideal Tline that has the likeness of the captured video frames I previously posted.

pm

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 22, 2017, 11:01:35 PM
Your next question "does your circuit behave the same way?" I answered "yes" because it too has no negative going impulses with no load.

This is again a false statement, a sign of confused complicated thinking. Your first suggestion for an alternative point where to measure the impulse was this:

Quote
In regards to the measuring points used in the sim, I could have shown the voltage at the lower output terminal of the Tline and it would have been seen as an inverted 2x version of the input.

If you look at partzman0a.png which shows this setup, you will see that there IS a negative impulse at the output of the T-Line, while there is no negative impulse at the output of the wave machine. This is the fault in the thinking that needs to be corrected, because you are either unable or unwilling to recognize and/or acknowledge such simple and obvious facts. The other 2 versions did not even have any output signal, therefore they are no better than the partzman0a.png.

Quote
I would welcome seeing a sim using an ideal Tline that has the likeness of the captured video frames I previously posted.

You are expecting something impossible from LtSpice. The wave machine makes it possible for you to see the complete inside space within the transmission line at the same time. Which means, that if there were more pulses, then you could see them all at the same time as they propagate in space along the line.

However, Lt spice does not display diagrams where the x axis could be a spatial dimension, like the length x along the transmission line. Now take this claim with a pinch of salt, because I am not an experienced LtSpice user (installed it for the first time few days ago to check out your circuit). It might still turn out, that some expert users can display such a spatial graph in LtSpice, and in that case you could indeed see an exactly analogous image of spatial propagation on your diagram that you see in the video.

For now let's use simple clear thinking and achieve the realistic and easily achievable aim to see the wave amplitude and form at a single point inside the transmission line in time domain (meaning: x axis displays time, and not a spatial coordinate). If you can peek inside the T-line at a single point, then you can do the same at several points as well, either simultaneously, or one after the other. Like, look into the middle of the T-line first, then move your point of peek hole, and watch the signal at say ¼ T-line distance from the input. You can do this, just break the problem down into small parts, and the solution should occur to you.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 22, 2017, 11:49:58 PM
This is again a false statement, a sign of confused complicated thinking. Your first suggestion for an alternative point where to measure the impulse was this:

If you look at partzman0a.png which shows this setup, you will see that there IS a negative impulse at the output of the T-Line, while there is no negative impulse at the output of the wave machine. This is the fault in the thinking that needs to be corrected, because you are either unable or unwilling to recognize and/or acknowledge such simple and obvious facts. The other 2 versions did not even have any output signal, therefore they are no better than the partzman0a.png.

You are expecting something impossible from LtSpice. The wave machine makes it possible for you to see the complete inside space within the transmission line at the same time. Which means, that if there were more pulses, then you could see them all at the same time as they propagate in space along the line.

However, Lt spice does not display diagrams where the x axis could be a spatial dimension, like the length x along the transmission line. Now take this claim with a pinch of salt, because I am not an experienced LtSpice user (installed it for the first time few days ago to check out your circuit). It might still turn out, that some expert users can display such a spatial graph in LtSpice, and in that case you could indeed see an exactly analogous image of spatial propagation on your diagram that you see in the video.

For now let's use simple clear thinking and achieve the realistic and easily achievable aim to see the wave amplitude and form at a single point inside the transmission line in time domain (meaning: x axis displays time, and not a spatial coordinate). If you can peek inside the T-line at a single point, then you can do the same at several points as well, either simultaneously, or one after the other. Like, look into the middle of the T-line first, then move your point of peek hole, and watch the signal at say ¼ T-line distance from the input. You can do this, just break the problem down into small parts, and the solution should occur to you.

Respectively ZL, are you serious?  If a measurement is taken at the other end of the grounded input on the Tline, of course you will find a negative going pulse as compared to the applied pulse. But this is like looking at the outside of the rods on the wave machine at the starting pulse and then moving around to the back side of the table to look at the inside of the rods when the output pulse arrives!

We don't need to look "inside" the Tline to analyze the results we see at the ends.  The sims I've provided as well as the ones you have provided utilizing the lossless Tline model do not agree with the wave machine.  There is NO evidence of wave superposition at the output of the un-loaded wave machine as compared to the un-loaded simulation.  If there is, then please point out what I'm missing!

pm
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 23, 2017, 01:01:56 AM
Respectively ZL, are you serious?  If a measurement is taken at the other end of the grounded input on the Tline, of course you will find a negative going pulse as compared to the applied pulse. But this is like looking at the outside of the rods on the wave machine at the starting pulse and then moving around to the back side of the table to look at the inside of the rods when the output pulse arrives!

Remember, you have suggested the option to measure the output at the bottom end of the T-line output, not me! If you are suggesting that this is a stupid idea, then why did you suggest it as an option in the first place? I have a feeling that now this is becoming an ego question, which is not nice. If you make a mistake and you are trying to hide it and cover it up with further obfuscations and false statements, instead of just simply acknowledging it, that will not make you look smarter. And it will not motivate me to show you things either, although I am trying to be patient...

You were trying to set up a simulation that would at least approximately behave as the wave machine, and for now you were able to view the signal at the input and at the output only. It does not matter which point you chose in your circuit to represent the output of the wave machine, as long as the signal that you measure there is analogous to the output signal of the wave machine.

Quote
We don't need to look "inside" the Tline to analyze the results we see at the ends.

We don’t. But we do need to look inside the T-line for you to see and understand that the circuit partzman1.png properly simulates the wave machine, and the same wave amplitude propagates inside the T-line that propagates inside the wave machine.

Quote
The sims I've provided as well as the ones you have provided utilizing the lossless Tline model do not agree with the wave machine.

The partzman1.png version does agree with the wave machine! I have not prodded you to watch the video at the critical point frame by frame in vain, or because I am bored and have nothing better to do. If you would have opened your eyes, used simple clear thinking and a bit more humble approach, you could have seen that the amplitude at the output of the wave machine is also double of the signal amplitude that propagates inside the transmission line.

The reason for me prodding you to peek inside your T-line is again not in vain, but because this is the most convincing way to show you that the circuit accurately models the wave machine. You will see that the wave amplitude inside the T-line is the same as the original input pulse. This will also finally prove that Dr. J.N. Shive’s statement that "the reflected wave from an open ended transmission line is a reflected replica of it's original self" is indeed correct, just you did not set up your circuit properly, and you still don’t understand the results that it displays.

Quote
There is NO evidence of wave superposition at the output of the un-loaded wave machine as compared to the un-loaded simulation.

There IS! Watch the video frame by frame when the right side of the impulse has just touched the end, and measure the amplitude. Then go on watching frame by frame until the amplitude becomes maximum at the output, and measure this max amplitude again. You will see that this second amplitude will be 2x the first. That can only happen if there is wave superposition at the very end of the line. Should I really spoon-feed every minute detail for you to understand?

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 23, 2017, 09:46:27 PM

[snip]

There IS! Watch the video frame by frame when the right side of the impulse has just touched the end, and measure the amplitude. Then go on watching frame by frame until the amplitude becomes maximum at the output, and measure this max amplitude again. You will see that this second amplitude will be 2x the first. That can only happen if there is wave superposition at the very end of the line. Should I really spoon-feed every minute detail for you to understand?

ZL,

Let's just cut to the chase!

Please point out what is missing in the video clips in my post #37 in reference to your above comment.  "Has just touched the end" of what?  This obviously must be at the beginning but I honestly don't understand where this reference amplitude point is!?!

What I see in the clips I supplied previously is a peak amplitude of the rods created from input by the professor at the start of the wave input.  Then as the wave progresses down the line, I see the rods reach a peak amplitude at the output that to me appears to be reasonably equal to the peak at the start of the wave input.  Then I see the return wave reach the input with a slightly lower amplitude than the starting amplitude.  It doesn't get any more clear than that IMO.

So, in order for you to get your point across, perhaps you (or anyone else) would like to take the time to freeze frame the wave machine video to make your point graphically because I just don't get it!

pm
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: itsu on February 23, 2017, 10:11:43 PM
You guys are obviously not on the same wave length   ;D

PM, i think ZL means this, see the below pictures at 3.46 m into the video.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 23, 2017, 10:31:20 PM
You guys are obviously not on the same wave length   ;D

In this specific case we are not on the same amplitude instead  ;D

Quote
PM, i think ZL means this, see the below pictures at 3.46 m into the video.

Thanks itsu, I started thinking that maybe my English sucks, and that is why my explanations don't seem to help Partzan. It is not enough just to look; one also has to see what he is looking at.

The wave machine is not an ideal Tline. There are losses in it, which are quite significant and observable. The pulse amplitude near the end in the very first cycle is already significantly lower than the original input amplitude. If one wants to observe the momentary wave superposition at the output then the comparison must be done right next to one another, to avoid the falsifying influence of damping during the propagation.

How and where to observe this phenomenon has been meticulously explained in my last post, if one cares to read and understand. I can't get any clearer than that.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 23, 2017, 11:01:31 PM
Last call for action:

Is there anybody who can modify the LtSpice Tline circuit so that we can see into the transmission line and observe the shape and amplitude of the pulse that propagates in it? So far we can see that only at the input and output of the line, but we want to peek into it at an arbitrary position along its length.

If no solution comes forward, then I will post it later today or tomorrow, and we can discuss the case further and explain what is happening and why in more details.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 24, 2017, 01:56:16 AM
@Itsu,

Thank you for going to the trouble of producing those freeze frames.  Because of it, I can see the superposition at the output waves.

@ZL,

As you can see, the case is closed.  Sorry to have wasted your time and I wish you the best in your efforts here.

pm
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 24, 2017, 01:40:48 PM
Here is another nice example of why I am generally reluctant to post on this forum (except for brief announcements). Because of the disinfo agents and other over inflated egos here, whose primary aim is to show off their imaginary greatness, to appear as very important inventors and researchers (who already know things), and everything else is just secondary to them. When their ego gets hurt, then they turn into ingrates and enemies (overt or covert).

Partzman is thanking Itsu for going to the ‘exceedingly difficult and time consuming trouble’ to post the two frozen frames, which I have clearly described how to make (which is fine). In contrast, he is implicitly showing me his middle finger, because his ego has been hurt, and I have offered nothing useful. OK now reader honestly, in my place would you be motivated to teach and help such people? If you would, then you must be a masochist, which I am not.

At a second thought, it is quite possible (and probable) that the challenge of partzman under the guise of asking his question was not a honest intent to learn, but rather a sneaky attempt to discredit me. You know, along the line:

Quote
“Let’s ask ZL a tricky question upon which many beginners slip up, and which is very counter-intuitive. If he does not know the correct answer we will provide it, and then he will be discredited. People will think that he is clueless and they will ignore his FE principle, thus our (the disinfo agent’s) goal is accomplished. On the other hand, if he knows the correct answer, then Partzman will feign to be errr… (how to put it nicely) unbelievably incapable and unwilling to understand the explanations. Our player will also get indignant and put all blame for his mistakes on ZL, so that all these effects combined will hopefully piss ZL off. He will loose his patience, say something offensive, and appear to the uninitiated public as a bad character. Since nobody else would like to be treated like Partzman, people will distance themselves from ZL. We, the great disinfo agents (thanks to our psychologists) will win again. No matter what ZL does, we win! We are the supreme strategists, period.”

Why do I suspect such a foul play here, am I an incurable “conspiracy theorist”? And you know that this term “conspiracy theorist” has been perverted by the establishment propaganda to be synonymous with the label of “crackpot”, right? Because there is NO conspiracy whatsoever and you must believe that such thing does not exists, and those who claim otherwise should be treated as despicable… I suspect foul play on this thread, because the covert action became overt when despite my precise description, Partzman still feigned inability to see what happens to the amplitude at the end of the wave machine (which I can’t believe to be true). While miraculously within few minutes of him asking for snapshots, Itsu provides the requested images (before I get the chance to do the same), so that Partzman can have a seemingly triumphant exit thanking him for solving his problem, “closing the case” and expressing his veiled f-you to me.  ;D
Getting back to our subject, the case of analyzing an unloaded transmission line is far from being closed. We have just started. The case of Partzman’s participation may be closed, according to his intent to close the case. If nobody else is interested in the explanation of the rest of the subject, then I am happy to indeed close the case here on this thread, and focus instead on my own work.

But if there are people who want me to finish the related explanations, then let me know, and I will post the rest of the story. My posts were not meant to help Partzman only, but other good people as well, who are interested in the subject now, or in the future.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: partzman on February 24, 2017, 03:33:32 PM
ZL,

I really don't know exactly how to respond to your last post but I must say something to defend myself because you have severely attacked my character.  You question my ability to "see" what was obvious to you and when I finally do understand and acknowledge the same plus apologize for wasting your time, you rip me to shreds.  I also apologize to Itsu for getting dragged into this by his sincere attempt to help me.

You said "I suspect foul play on this thread, because the covert action became overt when despite my precise description, Partzman still feigned inability to see what happens to the amplitude at the end of the wave machine (which I can’t believe to be true)."  This probably means nothing to you but I lost my brother last week and a good friend this week so my mind hasn't been operating as it should.  There is/was no conspiracy, intent to discredit or derail your efforts, or any other harm you insinuate.  You really owe me an apology!

My "case closed" comment had nothing to do with your ongoing explanation of anything you desire to discuss, but simply meant you no longer had to deal with my stupidity.  I humble myself and acknowledge that "I didn't get it" so what more do you want?

pm
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 24, 2017, 06:33:39 PM
You guys are obviously not on the same wave length   ;D

PM, i think ZL means this, see the below pictures at 3.46 m into the video.

Regards Itsu

It would be actually interesting to see if the momentum of the wave doubles as well, together with the amplitude.
It may not contradict the 3rd law of Newton because the momentum of equal magnitude is still there,
but it may be just added to the original due to the reflection.
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 24, 2017, 11:49:56 PM
It would be actually interesting to see if the momentum of the wave doubles as well, together with the amplitude.

Telecom, you are a mechanical engineer, right? It should not be very difficult for you then to calculate the momentum and the energy content of the wave pulse. Do you want to perform this calculation and share the results? It would be quite educational for everybody interested.

So far we were mainly discussing the simulation of EM wave pulse propagation in a transmission line. But similar simulation can be set up for mechanical waves as well. If you prefer to study the mechanical waves seen on the video, and would like to play with it (at least virtually) then here is a nice simulation that will let you do just that:

Wave Machine Model
http://www.opensourcephysics.org/items/detail.cfm?ID=10481
Download the "download 1694kb.jar" double click on it, and you are ready to start playing with waves and observe their motion in real time, just like the Prof. did in the video. The parameters can be changed as well, which will let you get a good feel of how waves behave under different conditions.

If on the other hand you (or others) want to play with an upgraded version of the T-line simulation in LtSpice, which lets you see the wave inside the transmission line, here is the diagram and the wave plots it can display: Split_Tline1.png see at the bottom.

It is very easy to solve the problem of measuring the wave inside the Tline with simple clear logic, something like this:
-Let’s assume that the Tline is a piece of coax cable, to make it easy to visualize.
-Let’s measure the voltage in the middle of the Tline; How to do it?
-In order measure it, we would have to cut it in the middle, otherwise we can not access the inner conductor.
-OK but then will the wave propagation not change? Not significantly if we solder them together nicely after leading a tap wire out which is soldered to the inner conductor, and then joining the two inner conductors together, and also the two outer ones without any gap.
-This way we model a single Tline with two Tline segments of identical characteristic impedance connected in series. This is what we see on the schematic. Both Tline segments are identical and have a Td=1.25us, which together will produce a time delay of 2.5us in this case.
-Now we have access to a measuring point that is in the middle of the cable, and we measure Vtr at that point, which is the blue trace on the graph.
-OK, but how can we measure the amplitude inside the Tline at an arbitrary point, let’s say at x*L distance along the length L of the line, where 0<x<1? That should be easy: use Td1=x*Td for the first Tline, and Td2=(1-x)*Td for the second Tline. Td is the total time delay of the complete line, which is in our example 2.5us (but you can change that to suit your needs).

If you play with the simulation a little bit and observe the waves, you will realize, that the amplitude inside the Tline is identical with the original impulse just as the Prof. stated, except that it gets doubled at the output for a brief moment where it is reflected, and the same happens at the input when it returns. This is a simple demonstration of local wave superposition. It is local in this case and temporary, because it happens only at within len/2 distance from the ends (where len is the length of the pulse). If you want to examine the gradual change of amplitude within this critical region, then chose Td1 and Td2 to place Vtr somewhere within this section.

How can we have a wave superposition or interference if there is only one single wave pulse? Don’t we need at least two waves to be added together? In this case the front side of the wave pulse turns back at the end to overlap with its own back side (tail). The two pulse segments propagating in opposite directions will get superimposed just the same way as if they were two independent waves. That is why we observe interference only at the very ends, and get double amplitude.

Now comes the key question:
Brilliant! We have produced wave superposition in direct phase and got a pulse of double amplitude. According to the FE principle from wave fields this supposed to contain excess energy… right? Well, think twice! Think hard, because this is a tricky and very counterintuitive property of waves! You can slip up here again very easily. If you think there is excess energy produced, then explain why, and how much. If you think there is no excess energy produced, then again you should be able to state the reason, and explain it. Remember, we are not interested in entertaining rosy illusions and chase fake FE devices, but in generating real excess energy. The first step towards that goal is to weed out false hopes and illusions.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 25, 2017, 08:51:32 PM

How can we have a wave superposition or interference if there is only one single wave pulse? Don’t we need at least two waves to be added together? In this case the front side of the wave pulse turns back at the end to overlap with its own back side (tail). The two pulse segments propagating in opposite directions will get superimposed just the same way as if they were two independent waves. That is why we observe interference only at the very ends, and get double amplitude.

Now comes the key question:
Brilliant! We have produced wave superposition in direct phase and got a pulse of double amplitude. According to the FE principle from wave fields this supposed to contain excess energy… right? Well, think twice! Think hard, because this is a tricky and very counterintuitive property of waves! You can slip up here again very easily. If you think there is excess energy produced, then explain why, and how much. If you think there is no excess energy produced, then again you should be able to state the reason, and explain it. Remember, we are not interested in entertaining rosy illusions and chase fake FE devices, but in generating real excess energy. The first step towards that goal is to weed out false hopes and illusions.
I think you can get a superposition from one wave if its being reflected on itself,
this is how a standing wave forms.
Also,  the point of a double amplitude happens at a half wave length. I think
that we don't have a net energy gain, since the resulting wave is shorter, even though higher.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 25, 2017, 10:15:07 PM
I think you can get a superposition from one wave if its being reflected on itself, this is how a standing wave forms.

Sure, this has been already clarified.

Quote
I think that we don't have a net energy gain, since the resulting wave is shorter, even though higher.

OK, then let’s forget the superposition at the open end of the Tline for now. Instead let us examine a clear case of superposition of two separate pulses that propagate in opposite directions, and meet at the middle of the transmission line. In that case we can not say that the resultant superposed pulse’s length is shorter than that of the merging two pulses. All 3 pulses have the same length.

Please watch the video from 6:32-6:44. At 6:32 two identical waves are generated in the middle of the line and they move away from one another, then after reflection from the ends they converge, and meet in the middle forming a superposed pulse of double amplitude at 6:44. In this case there is no difference in pulse length. So what is you expectation now? Do we have a gain of excess energy in this case? Again, please also explain why?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 26, 2017, 07:23:37 PM
Sure, this has been already clarified.

OK, then let’s forget the superposition at the open end of the Tline for now. Instead let us examine a clear case of superposition of two separate pulses that propagate in opposite directions, and meet at the middle of the transmission line. In that case we can not say that the resultant superposed pulse’s length is shorter than that of the merging two pulses. All 3 pulses have the same length.

Please watch the video from 6:32-6:44. At 6:32 two identical waves are generated in the middle of the line and they move away from one another, then after reflection from the ends they converge, and meet in the middle forming a superposed pulse of double amplitude at 6:44. In this case there is no difference in pulse length. So what is you expectation now? Do we have a gain of excess energy in this case? Again, please also explain why?
I think we have a double energy wave in this case.
In our case,  wave consists of the masses located at the different heights along the length of the wave.
Since the length of the wave is the same, but the masses are 2 times higher,
the energy of the wave should be doubled as well.
According to the formula E=mgH.
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 26, 2017, 07:39:41 PM
According to the formula E=mgH.

Alex, please take a good look at the wave machine, and notice how it was built (its structure), and explain how it operates. Your explanation indicates that you don’t understand how it works. Without the proper understanding of its working principle, you have no chance to get even close to understanding the wave energetics in it. When you get this working principle right, then we can come back to explain why you think there is double energy in the superposed pulse.

A hint that will give away the working principle: gravity has nothing to do with it. It would work the same (or nearly the same) in zero gravity in space as well.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 27, 2017, 12:50:52 AM
Alex, please take a good look at the wave machine, and notice how it was built (its structure), and explain how it operates. Your explanation indicates that you don’t understand how it works. Without the proper understanding of its working principle, you have no chance to get even close to understanding the wave energetics in it. When you get this working principle right, then we can come back to explain why you think there is double energy in the superposed pulse.

A hint that will give away the working principle: gravity has nothing to do with it. It would work the same (or nearly the same) in zero gravity in space as well.

Its interesting, I always thought it is similar to lifting weights.
I will take another look and update.
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 27, 2017, 11:03:55 AM
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: shylo on February 27, 2017, 06:19:57 PM
ZL your quote: "A hint that will give away the working principle: gravity has nothing to do with it. It would work the same (or nearly the same) in zero gravity in space as well."

Gravity is what makes the machine work. He lifts the arm to create the wave. Or he pushes the balanced arm down, which lifts the opposite end. Gravity then takes over when he releases it.

Also his math is incomplete, you need to calculate the lengths of the arms in reference to the center axis.
Interesting video ,but the more waves, the more unpredictable the outcome.
artv
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 27, 2017, 08:45:31 PM
Gravity is what makes the machine work. He lifts the arm to create the wave. Or he pushes the balanced arm down, which lifts the opposite end. Gravity then takes over when he releases it.

OK, if you think you know this better, then please educate us, and explain in detail how the machine works, and why it works that way. Does it support then gravity waves? How would it behave in zero gravity on a space station, and why? Can you write down the equations that govern the wave propagation in the device? We need specifics, detailed explanation, and real understanding. Without that we can not proceed with wave energetics.

Quote
Also his math is incomplete, you need to calculate the lengths of the arms in reference to the center axis.

Exactly what is wrong with his math? Again, please be specific. Show us where the error is, and how you would calculate the same in a correct manner.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: shylo on February 28, 2017, 02:19:34 AM
It's a bunch of balanced weights.
I disrupt that balance by, either lifting or pushing down, then release, the work I put in is translated.
To me the real observation is, what he didn't do was ,interrupt the wave.
Or let the wave interact.Not the same as when he added the second machine. It just had shorter tines.
artv
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 28, 2017, 11:41:01 AM
It's a bunch of balanced weights. I disrupt that balance by, either lifting or pushing down, then release, the work I put in is translated.

This sounds like Bessler Wheel logic. But just saying this will not bring it home to you. Therefore let us pick apart your explanation, and examine the validity of each claim and idea.

If the wave machine is only a bunch of balanced weights for you, then why don’t you start checking your theory by examining one single balanced weight? Imagine a modified special seesaw, which is not close to the ground, but it is at a height which allows the arms to make complete rotations around the axis. Now, you do the same as Prof. did in the video. You grab one end of the balanced seesaw, move it down a little and immediately move it up again into its starting position. Before you release the seesaw, make sure that the arm is stationary (v=0) just like it was before the start of our experiment. Now will this seesaw perform any oscillatory movement like it was observed in the wave machine? If gravity is the restoring force of any potential oscillation (like in the case of a simple pendulum), then your seesaw must oscillate.

An alternative experiment is to just rise one end of the seesaw, make sure that it is stationary, and release it. Will it start to oscillate like a pendulum?

I don’t respond to the second part of your post, because it makes no sense at all, and first we have to get you understand what is wrong with your explanation.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on February 28, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
This sounds like Bessler Wheel logic. But just saying this will not bring it home to you. Therefore let us pick apart your explanation, and examine the validity of each claim and idea.

If the wave machine is only a bunch of balanced weights for you, then why don’t you start checking your theory by examining one single balanced weight? Imagine a modified special seesaw, which is not close to the ground, but it is at a height which allows the arms to make complete rotations around the axis. Now, you do the same as Prof. did in the video. You grab one end of the balanced seesaw, move it down a little and immediately move it up again into its starting position. Before you release the seesaw, make sure that the arm is stationary (v=0) just like it was before the start of our experiment. Now will this seesaw perform any oscillatory movement like it was observed in the wave machine? If gravity is the restoring force of any potential oscillation (like in the case of a simple pendulum), then your seesaw must oscillate.

An alternative experiment is to just rise one end of the seesaw, make sure that it is stationary, and release it. Will it start to oscillate like a pendulum?

I don’t respond to the second part of your post, because it makes no sense at all, and first we have to get you understand what is wrong with your explanation.
I think you are saying that the total potential + kinetic energy of the system is unchanged, like in a pendulum?

BTW, I wasn't able to watch the video - can't open that file.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on February 28, 2017, 06:37:18 PM
I think you are saying that the total potential + kinetic energy of the system is unchanged, like in a pendulum?

I was explaining that gravity can not be responsible for an oscillatory motion in a balanced seesaw; neither can it play any major role in the operating principle of the wave machine. This is not a pendulum. A simple pendulum is unbalanced when it is released at an off center point. The seesaw is balanced in all possible positions at all angles, therefore gravity can not develop an active unbalanced resultant force on it at any angle. Without such a force it can not accelerate or decelerate, thus it can not oscillate. Wherever you turn it, it will remain in that position as long as no other force acts upon it.

Quote
BTW, I wasn't able to watch the video - can't open that file.

Which video? This one?
AT&T Archives: Similiarities of Wave Behavior (Bonus Edition)

I suspect you are talking about the java applet, which is an interactive simulator, not a video:
Wave Machine Model
http://www.opensourcephysics.org/items/detail.cfm?ID=10481

Download the download 1694kb.jar double click on it, and you are ready to start playing with waves and observe their motion in real time, just like the Prof. did in the video.

If it does not work then you will have to install Java on your PC first:

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 01, 2017, 03:30:01 AM
In the above video an original energy is supplied by  the torque
when stressing the supporting wire.
It can be equal to the force x arch of the bend.
This in turn creates a torsion stress in the above wire.
The rest of the system behaves as a multitude of the pendulums
oscillating around the point of the equilibrium.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 01, 2017, 03:56:39 AM
Trying to generalize,
it looks that the energy of the waves is greatly dependent on the properties of
the  medium. In this case, the elasticity of the wire material.
What is elasticity?
Its a property of the matter, in this case, the steel.
This matter consists of the atoms.
Perhaps by stressing it we can influence the atomic structure ?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on March 01, 2017, 09:20:04 AM
This in turn creates a torsion stress in the above wire. The rest of the system behaves as a multitude of the pendulums oscillating around the point of the equilibrium.

Nice one! Now you are getting close to really understanding how the wave machine works. As I have already started to point out in my previous post, the wave propagation is based on the oscillatory movement of mass particles in mechanics and acoustics (or on the oscillatory variation of EM fields in electromagnetics). A pendulum is also an oscillator; therefore it makes complete sense to imagine the wave machine to be a chain of coupled torsion pendulums.

There are several different pendulums:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum
But in this case we are interested in the torsion pendulum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_spring
More specifically we are interested in torsional harmonic oscillators, which are also briefly discussed on the above page.

Quote
This matter consists of the atoms. Perhaps by stressing it we can influence the atomic structure?

Sure, by twisting a metal rod you are distorting the crystal structure of the material. The bonds between the atoms get stretched or compressed. But in order to understand the working principle of the wave machine and calculate the energy content of a wave pulse, we don’t need to go down to atomic level. All we need is to understand the macroscopic behavior of elasticity and its quantitative analysis.

The next step for you is to study a bit the torsion pendulum and its mathematical analysis. The equation of motion of the torsional oscillator is already given on the wiki page. But there is a wealth of information online about this subject at all possible levels of understanding. We need university level of understanding here, because we must be able to derive the formula for the energy content of a wave pulse.

Google has offered many hits for torsion pendulum. Here are some:
http://vlab.amrita.edu/index.php?sub=1&brch=280&sim=1518&cnt=1
http://vlab.amrita.edu/index.php?sub=1&brch=280&sim=1518&cnt=4

When you are done with digesting the material, then please try to summarize and explain the working mechanism of the wave machine as a series of coupled torsional oscillators. You may also perform a google search about coupled oscillators, or coupled pendulums to give you an idea how to attack the problem.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 02, 2017, 04:47:13 AM

When you are done with digesting the material, then please try to summarize and explain the working mechanism of the wave machine as a series of coupled torsional oscillators. You may also perform a google search about coupled oscillators, or coupled pendulums to give you an idea how to attack the problem.

The biggest amplitude is at the point of the most twisted wire, and a vise versa.
So the energy can be determined from the amount of work which takes to
perform the twisting.
It equals F x S, where F is the twisting force, and S is the distance of the
arch of the applied force.
The total for the wave would be the  integral of these over the length of the wave.
This is how much I could extend myself to figure it out.
Zoltan, I think we all be greatly benefitting from your input at this point.
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on March 02, 2017, 09:27:54 PM
The biggest amplitude is at the point of the most twisted wire, and a vise versa. So the energy can be determined from the amount of work which takes to perform the twisting.

We want to know the energy content of a half sine wave on the wave machine, independently of its source. We don’t need to know who created the wave with what amount of invested work. Knowing this wouldn’t be of much use anyway if the wave we observe has suffered significant attenuation, especially if it has been also reflected from an impedance mismatch (like that of the open end of the transmission line).

Here is what we know: the properties of the transmission line (given by the manufacturer), the amplitude, wave length, and shape of the wave (sinusoid). That’s all. From this we should be able to calculate the energy content of the wave.

Quote
It equals F x S, where F is the twisting force, and S is the distance of the arch of the applied force.

The formula for calculating the work W=F*s is correct, but when we are dealing with rotation then engineers don’t use such notation. In case of rotation the work (or energy) is calculated as W=M*theta where M is a torque (M=F x r, vector product - where r is the radial distance of the attacking force from the axis) and theta is the angle of rotation (in radians).

Quote
The total for the wave would be the integral of these over the length of the wave.

This is partially true. First of all, in case of the wave machine, for the calculation of energy content, we can break it up into small discrete segments, and treat each segment as a simple torsion pendulum. Each rod with its piece of central torsion wire is a single segment. Therefore, instead of integration, we can simply use a summation to add together the energy contents of all the segments.

But what you have calculated with W=F*s or better with W=M*theta is only the potential energy stored in the elastic distortion of the wire (like in a spring), which is only half of the story. The torsion pendulum has got kinetic energy as well, which has to be added to the potential energy in order to get the total energy content.

Let’s summarize what we have figured out so far. The wave machine demonstrates the propagation of torsional waves in an elastic rod or wire as a transmission line. In order to let us see the wave movement, it uses balanced rods periodically attached to the torsion wire. The rods are either soldered to the torsion wire, or fixed to it with other techniques in such a way that they don’t slip. The rods serve dual purpose; they slow the wave down, and they also convert the torsion into translation to make the amplitude more visible. The wave machine can be analyzed as a series of individual torsion pendulums all connected together.

Although the shape of the pulse on the attached photo superposition.png in reply #56 of this thread is not exactly sinusoid, for the sake of simplicity let’s calculate the energy content of one half of a sine wave. Let’s assume that the wavelength is λ, and there are 21 rods (20 torsion wire segments) within the half wavelength. The amplitude of vertical displacement of the wave is A, which corresponds to an angular rotation of the rod #10 in the center of the half sinusoid theta_max. Thus we have 20 complete mini torsion pendulums within this length λ/2, which contain the wave pulse and its energy. The displacement of the first and last bar is zero. Let us assume that the angular rotation of each rod in our half sinusoid can be calculated according to the equation attached below (0<=n<=20 is the number of the examined rod). The first rod is #0, the second rod is #1, the central rod is #10, and the last rod is #20.

Now all you have to do is calculate the total energy content of the wave, by adding together the energies of all 20 individual mini torsion pendulums that contain the pulse. Please give us the formula that contains both potential and kinetic energies, and can be used for this calculation. This should not be too difficult for you since you have said that you are a mechanical engineer, and I have also given a number of references that discuss torsion pendulums in detail. You can also dust off your old textbooks and refresh your memory about the subject. Then we can demonstrate its use on a specific example, to calculate the numerical value of a specific wave pulse.

Finally we will be able return to the original subject of analyzing whether we can gain excess energy from the superposition of two waves that propagate in opposite directions or not.

Finally here are two very useful documents for those who are seriously interested in the practical understanding and building a wave machine:

Wave Motion Demonstrator - Instruction Manual
ftp://ftp.pasco.com/support/Documents/English/SE/SE-9600/SE-9600%20Manual.pdf

Coupled Torsion Pendulum
http://physics.unipune.ernet.in/~phyed/24.3/24.3_Pathare.pdf
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 03, 2017, 03:34:57 AM

Here is what we know: the properties of the transmission line (given by the manufacturer), the amplitude, wave length, and shape of the wave (sinusoid). That’s all. From this we should be able to calculate the energy content of the wave.

The formula for calculating the work W=F*s is correct, but when we are dealing with rotation then engineers don’t use such notation. In case of rotation the work (or energy) is calculated as W=M*theta where M is a torque (M=F x r, vector product - where r is the radial distance of the attacking force from the axis) and theta is the angle of rotation (in radians).

Ok, understood.

Quote
This is partially true. First of all, in case of the wave machine, for the calculation of energy content, we can break it up into small discrete segments, and treat each segment as a simple torsion pendulum. Each rod with its piece of central torsion wire is a single segment. Therefore, instead of integration, we can simply use a summation to add together the energy contents of all the segments.

Yes, for sure, this will simplify things!

Quote

But what you have calculated with W=F*s or better with W=M*theta is only the potential energy stored in the elastic distortion of the wire (like in a spring), which is only half of the story. The torsion pendulum has got kinetic energy as well, which has to be added to the potential energy in order to get the total energy content.

This part makes me puzzled - it probably involves the period of the above pendulum.

Quote
Let’s summarize what we have figured out so far. The wave machine demonstrates the propagation of torsional waves in an elastic rod or wire as a transmission line. In order to let us see the wave movement, it uses balanced rods periodically attached to the torsion wire. The rods are either soldered to the torsion wire, or fixed to it with other techniques in such a way that they don’t slip. The rods serve dual purpose; they slow the wave down, and they also convert the torsion into translation to make the amplitude more visible. The wave machine can be analyzed as a series of individual torsion pendulums all connected together.

Although the shape of the pulse on the attached photo superposition.png in reply #56 of this thread is not exactly sinusoid, for the sake of simplicity let’s calculate the energy content of one half of a sine wave. Let’s assume that the wavelength is λ, and there are 21 rods (20 torsion wire segments) within the half wavelength. The amplitude of vertical displacement of the wave is A, which corresponds to an angular rotation of the rod #10 in the center of the half sinusoid theta_max. Thus we have 20 complete mini torsion pendulums within this length λ/2, which contain the wave pulse and its energy. The displacement of the first and last bar is zero. Let us assume that the angular rotation of each rod in our half sinusoid can be calculated according to the equation attached below (0<=n<=20 is the number of the examined rod). The first rod is #0, the second rod is #1, the central rod is #10, and the last rod is #20.

Now all you have to do is calculate the total energy content of the wave, by adding together the energies of all 20 individual mini torsion pendulums that contain the pulse. Please give us the formula that contains both potential and kinetic energies, and can be used for this calculation. This should not be too difficult for you since you have said that you are a mechanical engineer, and I have also given a number of references that discuss torsion pendulums in detail. You can also dust off your old textbooks and refresh your memory about the subject. Then we can demonstrate its use on a specific example, to calculate the numerical value of a specific wave pulse.

Honestly, Zoltan, you are overestimating my limited mental faculties.
I would rather prefer to go the route of the lesser resistance, and have it
already done for us by some superior mind.
In any case, it will take some time for me to digest all this not very
intuitive info.

Quote

Finally we will be able return to the original subject of analyzing whether we can gain excess energy from the superposition of two waves that propagate in opposite directions or not.
But I'm very interested in this subject anyway, it really makes me think hard.

Finally here are two very useful documents for those who are seriously interested in the practical understanding and building a wave machine:

Wave Motion Demonstrator - Instruction Manual
ftp://ftp.pasco.com/support/Documents/English/SE/SE-9600/SE-9600%20Manual.pdf

Coupled Torsion Pendulum
http://physics.unipune.ernet.in/~phyed/24.3/24.3_Pathare.pdf
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 03, 2017, 03:58:50 AM
Hi Zoltan,
just want to expand on your remarkable formula.
According to what you've described,
The potential energy of the wave should be the
sum from 1 to 20 for the each torsion bar element..
Ptotal =SUM [1-20]( T x Q )
where Q is calculated according to your formula.
Regards
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on March 04, 2017, 07:38:41 PM
Honestly, Zoltan, you are overestimating my limited mental faculties.

Overestimating? I was expecting form you to be able to calculate these things, because you wrote me that you are a mechanical engineer who has got his diploma from a university. Calculating the energy content of a sine wave on the wave machine supposed to be a simple routine task for a mechanical engineer. Now it seems obvious that your claim about your qualification was a porky, which I don’t appreciate.

Quote
I would rather prefer to go the route of the lesser resistance, and have it already done for us by some superior mind.

That is fine, but in that case you are not doing any FE research. You are expecting from the “superior mind” to do the research for you, find the solution, and give you the blueprint of a developed FE machine, and all this for free. Ahem… don’t you think that your expectations are unrealistic and selfish? If you want to do your own research in this subject then you have to learn the required basics first. If you think it is too difficult for you, then you can still contribute to the cause by supporting the research of those who can do it. If you are not willing to contribute even this little, then you will have to wait until Santa brings you a present that you can replicate.

Perhaps this is a good point to hibernate this thread again for a while. The rest of the explanations about the line of thought we have discussed here will be shared with those who actively support my research. If anybody is interested, you can contact me via the contact form on my website:

https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/contact/

I respond to everybody (at least to their first email). If you would not get any response within a week, then something is wrong. Either try again, or let me know in a post here on this thread.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: shylo on March 04, 2017, 08:02:34 PM
When the wave is interrupted halfway along it's journey, what happens?
That is can you put an interruption along the path of propagation, and create 2 waves?
I know he showed how stopping in the center, the wave went doth ways, but at half the amplitude.
Maybe I don't understand?
If I short my coil just as the inducing magnetic field is about to switch polarities, the result is a higher gain than just passing the magnet past the coil.
artv
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 05, 2017, 02:06:16 AM
Overestimating? I was expecting form you to be able to calculate these things, because you wrote me that you are a mechanical engineer who has got his diploma from a university. Calculating the energy content of a sine wave on the wave machine supposed to be a simple routine task for a mechanical engineer. Now it seems obvious that your claim about your qualification was a porky, which I don’t appreciate.
Yes, but where did I claim that I was an A student?

Quote
That is fine, but in that case you are not doing any FE research. You are expecting from the “superior mind” to do the research for you, find the solution, and give you the blueprint of a developed FE machine, and all this for free. Ahem… don’t you think that your expectations are unrealistic and selfish?

In this case, why not to share it with the less intelligent comrades, at least by explaining
in a simple terms the subject?
Really, you can't expect from everyone understanding of double integrals.

Quote
Perhaps this is a good point to hibernate this thread again for a while.
I respond to everybody (at least to their first email).

I'm really interested in this subject and would like your explanation to continue.
It least in a layman terms.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on March 07, 2017, 08:48:32 PM

I wrote only that Mr. Vajda has built at least 2 different types of proof of concept FE generators, and he has demonstrated an excess power on two videos. The powers measured were in mW range, so the devices were not designed to deliver enough power to drive a car or heat a house. However, based on the same principles, the output power could be increased to useful practical levels by refining the design. He was seeking investors to develop his inventions for high power practical use. As far as I know the potential investors who have promised millions of dollars for the project have deceived him, and a high power generator was not developed by him.

He did not demonstrate the measurements on those devices to me personally. I know about them only from the videos and from his explanations. The devices were stolen by some rascals after Mr. Vajda’s death, and I would not be surprised if they have ended up in some secret US research laboratories. I am convinced that such generators already exist in military use and in the service of the top oligarchy. If despite all the money they have in the world they still don’t have such FE generators, then they suck at science and research.

As far as I know, the principle has not been implemented yet in kW range among amateur FE researchers. Therefore it is not true that “the work had been already completed”, I did not say such a thing. This is the main reason we need money for the further research and development.

Quote
In this case, why not to share it with the less intelligent comrades, at least by explaining in a simple terms the subject? Really, you can't expect from everyone understanding of double integrals.

Alex, please don’t consider me to be your comrade! This word has got a strong communistic connotation.  I am not a communist. Communism was not invented by the masses whose interests it allegedly supposed to serve. It was invented by a small group of people who thrive on the back of other people as parasites, and forced it on nations with sword and iron, killing millions of people in the process. The ideology of communism had several purposes.

One of them was to infect eastern courtiers and destroy their wealth, industry, economy, scientists, morale, life standard, etc. and make them poor. This way the west did not have such powerful competitors as China and Russia for a very long time, so it was an ideological weapon against foreign target countries. It is part of the rush for global control. Another purpose was to grant undisputed and almighty power to these crooks who have taken control of the target countries under the guise of top communist leaders. Communism is no better than capitalism in any way; in fact it is much worse. But it does not really much matter under which rule one lives, the name of the game is the same: few demonic criminals have acquired control over the rest of the population (using them as cash cows, and virtual slaves) and legalized this system of control, just like a disguised protection racket of  godfather Corleone.

Quote
I'm really interested in this subject and would like your explanation to continue. It least in a layman terms.

The equations of the energy content of a wave on the wave machine, their explanations, and whether there is any excess energy gain in the illustrated superposition and why (separately explained for the case of EM waves propagating in a coaxial wave guide as well) are not secrets. You (or anyone else) can get them nicely written up in a pdf document with illustrations, if you invite me for a couple of beers (say \$5 worth of donation on my website). Your interest is fake and hollow if you are not willing to put your cash where your mouth is.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: Kator01 on March 07, 2017, 10:03:54 PM
Dr. Raymond Phillips - Work - Media coverage - patent

http://www.tillit.info/filer/tillit_nr12.pdf (http://www.tillit.info/filer/tillit_nr12.pdf)

German website was reporting on this:
https://www.minotech.de/forschung/raumenergiekonverter/raymond-konverter/ (https://www.minotech.de/forschung/raumenergiekonverter/raymond-konverter/)

I am not sure from these reports that he extracted more energy than spend out of a standing wave

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: telecom on March 08, 2017, 12:15:32 AM

Alex, please don’t consider me to be your comrade! This word has got a strong communistic connotation.

I had in mind the first meaning, which is quite common among friendly coworkers,
but now I'm rescinding this offer of comradeship as per your wishes.
noun
a companion who shares one's activities or is a fellow member of an organization.
synonyms:   companion, friend; colleague, associate, partner, coworker, workmate; informalpal, crony, mate, chum, buddy, dawg; informalpeeps
"we became comrades back in 1943, working in a field hospital in the Philippines"
a fellow soldier or member of the armed services.
a fellow socialist or communist (often as a form of address).

Quote

The equations of the energy content of a wave on the wave machine, their explanations, and whether there is any excess energy gain in the illustrated superposition and why (separately explained for the case of EM waves propagating in a coaxial wave guide as well) are not secrets. You (or anyone else) can get them nicely written up in a pdf document with illustrations, if you invite me for a couple of beers (say \$5 worth of donation on my website). Your interest is fake and hollow if you are not willing to put your cash where your mouth is.

I will consider this, but I think you had to start your posting with this offer rather than
writing so many words with no actual result.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on March 08, 2017, 02:21:28 PM
Dr. Raymond Phillips - Work - Media coverage - patent...

Mike,

You have already posted this very same nonsense of Raymond Phillips more than a year ago here:
http://overunity.com/3068/the-return-of-the-hungarian-free-energy-from-wave-fields/msg475589/#msg475589
and I have responded at the bottom of the next post here:
http://overunity.com/3068/the-return-of-the-hungarian-free-energy-from-wave-fields/msg475615/#msg475615

It’s all bullocks. There is no free energy in that circuit. It is a closed subject; you shouldn’t have brought it up now again. The laws of nature did not change during the last year.  ;D
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on March 08, 2017, 04:52:56 PM
I will consider this, but I think you had to start your posting with this offer rather than writing so many words with no actual result.

This sounds familiar again; putting the blame on me for the consequences of your own mistakes and lack of relevant knowledge. Not nice! So you are blaming me for not starting my postings with this offer. I have already explained that I did not start to post again here this year because I wanted to make any offer to anybody. I started to post in order to warn the readers that an organized disinfo operation was unfolding on this thread. All the rest of my posts were only spontaneous responses to questions and attacks.

All the rest of our conversation on this thread was built upon your (false) claim of being a mechanical engineer. If this would have been true, then you could have calculated the energy content of a wave on the wave machine within a few days (at most) on your own, and then I could have lead you to discover and understand the rest of the subject on your own with some guidance, namely whether there is any excess energy in the observed superposition, and why. It is completely meaningless to start such an explanation, unless you know and understand the quantitative energy content of a wave.

Our conversation dragged out for so long without the hoped for revelations, because I was expecting you to finally derive the formulas and explain the working principle of the wave machine. If you would have told me the truth, that you don’t possess the knowledge of a real engineer, then I would not have expected from you knowledge and abilities that you don’t possess. If you would have said that you are only a technician, then I would have given you few links, where you could have learned the necessary prerequisites for the understanding of the wave energetics. One can not explain calculus to a student who does not even know the basic operations of addition, and subtraction.
Quote
… rather than writing so many words with no actual result.

Your disappointment is based on your misunderstanding about the nature of real research. You were expecting ready made pre-chewed knowledge from me, spoon-fed at your insufficient level of understanding, and then hoping that it would enable you to invent an FE generator. That is a totally wrong approach. If I answer one question, ten other questions will pop up in its place; and if those are also answered, then a hundred new ones would emerge. There is never an end to questions, and no real benefit in answering only a couple of them.

If I really want to help a fellow seeker to enable him to become such a researcher, then the first thing I have to teach him is independence! The ability to find and acquire real knowledge on his own. If you give money to a beggar he will get drunk today and he will be begging for more tomorrow. You didn’t really help him much. But if you teach him how to earn money, and/or offer him a job, then you have done something really good, worth mentioning.

Scientific research on its own is already difficult, but researching methods of gaining excess energy that is considered to be totally impossible by the majority of scientists is even more difficult. The fiddling that happens on FE forums can not be called real scientific research. It would become that only if the participants would have the prerequisite knowledge, and if they would actually know what they are doing. It would become that if it would not be lead by disinfo agents, whose purpose is the exact opposite, to guarantee unsuccess. This is within the reach of intelligent people, if they would only be willing to invest the necessary time and effort to learn the necessary prerequisites. But many people are too lazy and/or too puffed up to do that. They think that they already know what needs to be known.

One does not have to be born a genius in order to do decent research. The methods, attitude, and prerequisites can be learned just like anything else. If you are serious about doing such research then the first step is to develop your ability to find and learn knowledge that others have already discovered before you, and which are readily available in books and on the internet. If one is unable to accomplish even this simple task with success, then he is totally useless as a researcher. How will he be able to discover knowledge then that nobody else has discovered yet?

This is the reason that it is meaningless for me to give answers to simple trivial questions here on this forum, because it will not really benefit the questioner, and it will only waste my time in vain. If I really want to help and make my effort be worthwhile, then I have to lead the questioner to discover the correct answer on his own. I have to demonstrate what line of thinking is productive and what creates only confusion and delusion. People also need to be able to recognize disinfo agents who confuse and mislead. I have to show you how to look for and find the answers on your own (if you don't know). You have to learn first and foremost the art of independent research and logical thinking, and the learning of simple science facts is only secondary (though that is also necessary, but you can do that on your own). If one is too lazy or unable to find and learn known science facts on his own, then he is useless as a researcher, and he is absolutely hopeless as a free energy researcher.

Finally based on your level of knowledge that you have demonstrated here, I suggest you to study and learn the very basics first from a secondary school level website:

http://www.earlhaig.ca/departments/science/physicsreview.php

When you are done with that, then you can take the next step of upgrading your math knowledge, because that is the engine of any serious research. We have to be able to calculate quantities as well, and it is not sufficient to have only qualitative understanding. When the math knowledge is solid, then you can take university and college level courses (also available online), which will finally enable you to do serious research and know what you are doing.

So hopefully now my “writing so many words“ has lead to “the actual result” that I wanted to achieve, which is to make you (and others) recognize the necessity of self-reliance and independent serious work. On the other hand, if you have changed your mind, and you prefer to follow the road of a technician, then you will have to wait for a ready made design to replicate. In that case it is waste of effort to explain the not so trivial details of wave mechanics here.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on November 14, 2017, 10:33:20 PM
This is an update about my realizations made during the last 2 years in connection with the published and unpublished FE research of Janos Vajda.

This was a disappointing 2 years, which lead me to the conclusion that there was an organized disinfo campaign behind his work. My website has been updated now accordingly, and a brief description of the conclusions can be read at:

https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/the-published-work-of-janos-vajda/
https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/

But make no mistake, the principle of gaining excess energy from wave fields based on wave superposition is still valid! Only few references to Janos’ documents have been removed from the page “How to gain free energy from wave fields – simplified explanation” the rest is still valid as before:

https://feprinciples.wordpress.com/how-to-gain-free-energy-from-wave-fields-simplified-explanation/

Only the analysis of Mr. Vajda is incorrect, and his invention does not generate free energy as he described it. It is a bit more complicated than that. The pages containing his patent application and his booklet have been removed to avoid further confusion and disappointments.

I have also promised some time ago that a translated video demonstration of his invention would be published, where he is performing a measurement on it. This was postponed for a long time and now finally cancelled, because I have realized that if the majority of his documents contain serious errors, then there is a good chance that the video is also fake. After these developments I feel now that the publishing of the video wouldn’t do any good. Therefore it makes no sense anymore to invest time, money and effort to convert the video into uploadable form and size, and even less to translate it and add subtitles. Time is better spent on developing methods and devices that do generate FE. But of course, if anybody is still curious enough to finance the work on the video, I am willing to do it.

Zoltan Losonc
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: forest on November 14, 2017, 11:24:34 PM
Because there is no excess energy in simple computation , it would be found many year ago if any existed. Energy is always external.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: blueplanet on November 15, 2017, 06:09:46 PM
In which document did he say he had successfully discovered overunity in standing wave?

His circuit is just a conventional wireless energy harvester. The RF signal is first captured by the dipole antenna. Then he used a voltage multiplier to scale up the received energy. As always, the received energy is inversely proportional to square of the distance between the transmitting end and the receiving end.

There is no overunity in ordinary space electromagnetic waves.

But i am hopeful something strange is due to be discovered.

Dr. Raymond Phillips - Work - Media coverage - patent

http://www.tillit.info/filer/tillit_nr12.pdf (http://www.tillit.info/filer/tillit_nr12.pdf)

German website was reporting on this:
https://www.minotech.de/forschung/raumenergiekonverter/raymond-konverter/ (https://www.minotech.de/forschung/raumenergiekonverter/raymond-konverter/)

I am not sure from these reports that he extracted more energy than spend out of a standing wave

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: blueplanet on November 20, 2017, 02:17:07 PM
Any more input???
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on November 20, 2017, 08:49:11 PM
Any more input???

Also, are you asking me, or Kator01, or Forest, or somebody else to chime in?
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: blueplanet on November 21, 2017, 04:23:27 AM
Also, are you asking me, or Kator01, or Forest, or somebody else to chime in?

I am asking everyone if they have any more idea.
I want to see some non-textbook theories.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: endlessoceans on November 21, 2017, 05:43:08 AM
I am asking everyone if they have any more idea.
I want to see some non-textbook theories.

Ideas I will not put forward.  Not because I don't have anything worthwhile to say but because it is a waste here.  Another man's ideas are usually balked at anyway.  What I will submit is FACT.

EVERYTHING follows the laws of the Universe.  There is NO OU.  THIS IS FACT.  Thank goodness for that otherwise with all the chain reactions and chemical volatility in the Universe, something would have experienced a runaway chain reaction by now and destroyed us all.

However there is abundant energy to be harvested.  This is FREE depending on how you harvest it and the efficiency of your model.   Nothing is truly FREE anyway....you still have to build a device and spend money to pump that energy.

FINALLY for the record......NEVER once did TESLA ever ever state he had found OU within a system.  Quite the opposite....he stated many times in his writings that he was unsuccessful at achieving a self sustaining apparatus.  Also what he stated was about efficiency.

Anyway keep dreaming away....so much wasted time when you could go to the bench and make models to prove these things to yourselves rather than talking in circles about nonsense.

PS Bedini did not have OU either.  He was a snake oil showman who spoke in riddles so he could sell his wares.  He paid his electric bill like everyone else.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: forest on November 21, 2017, 12:03:08 PM
WRONG!!! Tesla found OU ,he even commented  article describing Figuera invention proving he also found a way to tap ambient energy. He however thought it was not useful due to small output energy level. Small means kW range rather then MW.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: ZL on November 21, 2017, 04:46:28 PM
I am asking everyone if they have any more idea.
I want to see some non-textbook theories.

If by “non-textbook” you mean exotic and unscientific, then I can not help you with that. Mr. Vajda was using textbook knowledge in his booklet, but with deliberate omissions (because he was most probably forced to do so), which lead to errors. I have been using textbook theories and equations to find those errors, and correct them. The simulators used for validating the inventions revealed in the legacy documents of Janos also use exclusively scientific “textbook” theories and equations. I am not against science and textbooks; they are extremely valuable, because most of their teachings are correct and practically useful. Without the knowledge accumulated in these textbooks by geniuses like Faraday, Maxwell, Tesla etc. we would have no chance to get even close to inventing FE generators. There are very few claims in these textbooks that are inaccurate, mainly those that were designed to prevent the development of free and unlimited power sources, which could free the masses from the slavery to centralized energy corporations.

If you are looking for “non-textbook” theories to show off by scoffing at them as a source of entertainment or agenda, then you will be disappointed with this subject of FE from wave fields, because it requires a firm scientific foundation if you really want to understand it, and make valid claims about the details. The devil is hidden in the details. There are plenty of other threads on this forum (and other FE forums) that offer you exactly that type of entertainment requiring much less competence.

Merely repeating cliché claims like “There is no overunity in ordinary space electromagnetic waves” will not make you appear wise, but more like a tape recorder. If you want to appear wise, then why don’t you pick the booklet of Mr. Vajda apart, equation by equation, and point out exactly what is correct and what is incorrect in it. I have already explained it in brief on my website, so you don’t even have to discover the solution, it’s already there. Can you analyze the booklet in details? If you can not, then your opinion is of no use, and deserves no attention.

There are many obstacles to overcome in FE research and in the process of bringing it the public. Let me highlight you one of the greatest hurdles that needs to be overcome, before a major breakthrough can happen. This is the barrier of convenience and insufficient background knowledge. The point I am trying to convey is very nicely illustrated by an ancient parable, which is pasted below with some modifications to make it consistent and relevant:

“There was an old wise lady in a small village. She was quite happy and content in her tattered clothes, her lampless hut, and her half-filled stomach. Many people were interested in knowing the secret of her happiness. In spite of her best efforts, she was unable to make them understand the simple yet invaluable secret, as their interest was only academic. But determined that she was, she thought of a practical method of teaching them.

One evening, during the twilight hours, she started repairing her torn clothes sitting in her lampless hut. When darkness enveloped, the needle slipped away from her fingers. That was the only needle she had. She desperately started searching for it on her mud floor, but the darkness and her failing eyesight did not allow her to find it.

Just as she was wondering her next course of action, her eyes fell on the street lamp just outside her dwelling, and got an idea how to make people understand her secret of happiness. She went under the lamp and started searching for the lost needle enthusiastically. A youth, who used to respect her, was passing by. Finding the old lady in search for something, he asked affectionately as to what was she searching for. When she told him about the lost needle, he too joined her in the search. Gradually a crowd gathered and joined them in the search. Nearly an hour later, after the back-breaking search, another youth asked the old lady to tell him the exact spot where she might have dropped the needle.

After waiting intentionally for the whole crowd to become attentive, she said at last that she had lost it in the hut! They laughed at her stupidity and asked her how could she possibly find the needle under the street lamp, if she had dropped it in her hut. Without ruffling her feathers in the least, she said that the hut was dark, while there was light outside. The crowd laughed once more. Someone commented amidst the peeps of laughter that she should have illuminated her hut, instead of looking for the lost needle under the street lamp.

Calmly she said that what had happened was not all that funny, because this is what the whole world is doing all the time. There is happiness within, but everybody is searching for it outside in the objects, in name and fame, or in the struggle for power over others. Just because we feel the darkness within ourselves and experience the difficulty to see, we direct our search outside where there is light and everything can be perceived clearly.”

People interested in FE search for it in areas that are easy to understand, where their dim light of knowledge allows them see somewhat clearly. The disinfo agents are very well aware of this tendency towards fiddling with simple things, and flood the forums with an endless variety of fake FE inventions, which look exciting, but will always lead into dead ends, or force them to run in circles. The needle of FE can not be found in these sensations, because it is hidden in darker places.

However, nobody cares to search in these dark mines of physics, because they lack the light of knowledge and can not see. Even though I have revealed and explained an FE principle that makes perfect sense, and it is also based on known laws of nature (not on exotic new theories), there is no qualified interest in this subject. Under “qualified” I mean either people with sufficient background knowledge, or people who are willing and eager to acquire such knowledge. If you want to find the golden needle of unlimited power source (instead of searching under the street lamp of easy sensations), you should light your lamps of relevant knowledge about waves, which will enable you see in the mine where it is hidden.

There is an urgent need for the gathering of interested people who are willing learn this subject. Or the other option is to convince people who already have the necessary knowledge to get interested and work on the development and spreading of this FE principle. I was thinking about starting a forum specialized exclusively on the study and discussion of wave science in electromagnetics and acoustics, and all other necessary subjects. No FE discussion, only and purely mainstream science. Once such open minded core group gains sufficient scientific insight, they will start to see endless possibilities, and follow the right track that will inevitably lead to success. Unfortunately all this would require a lot of work and take too much time away from my research. Therefore it has been shelved for now.

The reason why it is so difficult to generate excess energy is because Nature has been designed to be conservative. This is the glue that holds everything together, and prevents the uninitiated from messing with the creation. The main gate is closed, but there are back doors, which allow the higher intelligent beings of the universe to create and destroy in the dimension of crude matter. The ancient Vedic and Greek cultures called these beings “gods”, because their knowledge and technology made them appear as such to the primitive humans. The story of how Prometheus has stolen fire from Zeus and given it to humans makes much more sense if we replace the word “fire” in the legend with the words energy and/or power. Simple fire didn’t have to be stolen; it is not high tech, and it was easily available even to primitives via regular forest fires and other natural occurrences.

Prometheus has stolen the key of knowledge that allowed humans to open the backdoor of creation and generate excess energy. This also explains why the highly developed ancient societies of Atlantis and Lemuria were destroyed (see also reference to ancient wars between gods in Vedas), because they have allegedly misused this stolen knowledge in a destructive way.

The principle of FE from wave fields based on wave superposition is the stolen “fire” of Prometheus. This is nothing new. In the Bible John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word (waves), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” In the ancient Hindu Vedas we read, “In the beginning was Brahman with whom was the Word, and the Word is Brahman.” They also refer to waves or to “word” as OM the primordial sound that pervades the universe and which possesses creative power.

I am only wondering whether the history will repeat itself, and humanity will self-destruct again as it has already happened according to ancient chronicles… But due to the existence of the atomic bomb, and other similarly destructive WMD’s, the hiding of FE technology would not save the world from the potential self-destruction.

Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: forest on November 21, 2017, 09:24:42 PM
The same was used in TPU , yet the energy is not created by waves superposition. It's always here in field around us. Some called it ether...I call it magnetic field. The history of science is flooded with "atmospheric electricity" news which were suppressed. Nothing new.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: endlessoceans on November 21, 2017, 10:35:47 PM
WRONG!!! Tesla found OU ,he even commented  article describing Figuera invention proving he also found a way to tap ambient energy. He however thought it was not useful due to small output energy level. Small means kW range rather then MW.

Hey Tito (or Forest) or whatever you are calling yourself today

Read English and understand properly.   OU means more out of a substance than what is in the substance to begin with.   For instance.....put a gallon of water in a closed jar and somehow make 2 gallon.  THIS is what OU tries to be.   Therefore OU is NOT possible.

FREE ENERGY from ambient is what you describe.  If you read my post correctly you will see that this is possible.

Anyway, why are you still here under all these different names Tito, dropping stupid little hints.  If you are so clever and found the answer, help humanity out and post a schematic.

But NO....you are just a little pretender
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: endlessoceans on November 21, 2017, 10:39:35 PM
The same was used in TPU , yet the energy is not created by waves superposition. It's always here in field around us. Some called it ether...I call it magnetic field. The history of science is flooded with "atmospheric electricity" news which were suppressed. Nothing new.

Really Tito??!!

Amazing!!!.   No more talking in circles like your silly Energy Amplification thread, either show it or shutup

You have nothing.    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: blueplanet on November 22, 2017, 09:00:10 AM
I don't want to be appear to be wise....and I certainly do not want to focus on Mr. Vajda.
We are here just to learn and share..and hopefully get some new ideas through brain storming.
Being hostile is non-yielding.
Indeed, Tesla has really said in some of his articles that OU is possible in a transmission medium.... and that's why has driven me mad.

....
Merely repeating cliché claims like “There is no overunity in ordinary space electromagnetic waves” will not make you appear wise, but more like a tape recorder. If you want to appear wise, then why don’t you pick the booklet of Mr. Vajda apart, equation by equation, and point out exactly what is correct and what is incorrect in it. I have already explained it in brief on my website, so you don’t even have to discover the solution, it’s already there. Can you analyze the booklet in details? If you can not, then your opinion is of no use, and deserves no attention.
.....
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: blueplanet on November 22, 2017, 09:02:25 AM
I don't want to be appear to be wise....and I certainly do not want to focus on Mr. Vajda.
We are here just to learn and share..and hopefully get some new ideas through brain storming.
Being hostile is non-yielding.
Indeed, Tesla has really said in some of his articles that OU is possible in a transmission medium.... and that's what has driven me mad.
Title: Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
Post by: forest on November 22, 2017, 11:56:21 AM
Right.OU is impossible, but OU is simply free energy from environment in the way nobody or most do not understand. The marvel of yesterday invention is the common tool of today - or something like that Tesla said. Ambient field is around us , it is HUGE but in two spots nearby the difference is so tiny we don't feel it or measure. The simple method of energy amplification was described by Tesla and patented in pieces. Kapanadze and Tito told us about it also. There ar however more important things to achieve - the Truth about electricity generation.