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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: dieter on June 04, 2016, 10:11:31 PM
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After reading several texts about the discrepancy in the energy equilibrium between dissociation of H2 to 2H and recombination of 2H to H2 ( potential COP of 1000 ), by Nicholas Moller, William Lyne (occult ether physics), as well as Irving Langmuir (who desperately tried to explain away the unexplicable yet undeniable energy gain), I became rather interested in the subject matter but soon realized that there isn't much information. Furthermore, since the "1912 paper" of Langmuir there wasn't much research on the subject, until recently. The few information is spread all over in tiny bits, so I hope we can list here the possibilities we got today in order to dissociate molecular hydrogen H2 into atomic hydrogen (2) H1, which burns several times hotter. Of course we want to spent as little energy as possible to dissociate.
We would also prefer materials that are cheap and easily obtainable. And non poisonous.
Langmuir states, dissociation is caused by high temperatures (2000-3000 K). Atomic hydrogen welding was based on this phenomenon. Normal hydrogen was blown trough an electrical arc between 2 Thungsten electrodes. The flame had about 10 to 20 times the energy compared to one without the arc.
"Cold fusion" from Pons/Fleischmann seems to be based in the same principle, although there the process happens within the plasma in the water. In how much dissociation takes place may be hard to measure, which could be the reason why the repeatability of CF OU is often disputed.
Then I read in Lynes' book, Langmuir referred to a method using lead-mercury alloy (lead amalgam) for both electrodes, which produced H1 directly in electrolysis (with O/H seperation trough 2 tubes, one for each electrode, bottom open in the electrolyte. In an other, unreleated document I read gallium was used to substitute mercury in some electrochemical way. So I wonder if a gallium-lead alloy may work. Does anyone of you have any information on that?
Franco also mentioned several methods, including alpha-radiation (radioactive), as well as several methods involving Thungsten electrodes (which I would prefer to avoid for $ reasons). Although, Langmuir also wrote, at least parts of the dissociation must have been caused by exposing H2 to the Surface of Thungsten and not by heat only...
Then there is also the extreme Palladium hydrogen adsorbtion feature, which may somehow be utilized. Maybe let its surface adsorb molecules and then shock the metal with HV pulses, just strong enough that one H atom "dropps off"?
There may also be ways by using other radiation wavelengths, and I guess it would be most effective with frequencies that resonate with the atomic size of the molecules. There may be sweet spots accross the entire spectrum, harmonics which would shatter the molecule surgically like the high C of an opera singer can smash a wineglass with a standing wave.
I've read in Patrick Kellys encyclopedia 500kHz can heat water quickly, which is interesting, corelating with Ainslies 555-heater. And of cource there are the standard microwave oven frequencies at 2.5 GHz if I'm right, bringing Water / H into high stress. Certainly it wouldn't take 1.5 kW to bombard only a thin tube with H2 streaming trough.
So, it would be very helpful if you add to this thread whatever you know about the various options we have right now in the dissociation of H2 into 2* H1.
Thank you
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Look up Wood's discharge tube. It seems to be the favorite way to make the stuff.
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You can use magnets:
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Thank you very much, the both of you!
I have found some interesting paper titled "characterization of hydrogen dissociation over aluminium-doped zinc oxide..."
Seemingly such surfaces have the ability to seperate hydroxils (O-H +ZnH) from ZnO+H2 which (the O-H) have lower bonds than H-H dimers.
Then I stumbled upon something that is just the sort of thing I love:
Duncan s' Paradox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan's_Paradox
and I quote:
In 2014 Duncan's temperature paradox was experimentally realized, utilizing hydrogen dissociation on high-temperature transition metals (tungsten and rhenium). Ironically, these experiments support the predictions of the paradox and provide laboratory evidence for second law breakdown.[3] These results are corroborated by other experiments that demonstrate anomalous (and differential) levels of hydrogen dissociation on heated transition metals;[4][5][6][7][8] additional theoretical support can be found in the theory of epicatalysis.[9]
Wow. Enjoy.
I'll look into that magnet dissociation thing. Couldn't find much about the Wood s' discharge tube so far. Is that the one inside dehumidifiers?
As a side project I'll try to implement the duncan s' paradox in a hydrogen-filled radiometer.
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Cells in series for both H2 and H1
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Thanks a lot. Looks very simple.
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Photomagnetolysis
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Thanks again. I'm kind of stuck tho, can you give me some more info on the principle? Maybe a link to a text that has the basics of the magnetic h2 interaction?
How do I drive the two coils of the h1 /o1 outlet? (ac or dc, pulse, waveform, frequency, duty time etc? are they magneticly mirrored to eachother?)
Do you think 4 MOT magnets would work?
Thanks.
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the two coils to separate O1 and H1 have a clockwise winding and a left-hand winding
https://www.supermagnete.it/blocchi-magneti-neodimio/parallelepipedo-magnetico-50mm-x-50mm-x-12.5mm-neodimio-n35-nichelato_Q-50-50-12.5-N
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http://autocostruire.forumcommunity.net/
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Thanks. If the coils are not pulsed, I could use permanent ring magnets instead?
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Prof Malgarini, before this chap spends time and money, does your device actually work or is it an untested invention?
Personally I'd use a glow discharge is a metal tube. The metal will act ad a catalyst for the recombination. All this placed in a adiabatic calorimeter for heat measurements. A fair bit of work to get it right.
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Recombination can take place in the combustion chamber of car engine:
https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2008041241
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You can use magnets:
Hello Franco,
Your drawing is not that clear to me. Is it necessary to pulse the magnets or pulse the charge across the plates? Or both or only one of either? I think magnets, if strong enough can influence the Lorenze force of the current, and can cause an increase in efficiency of output and also create directional current flows within the dissociation chamber. We could be talking >3.0T as a requirement for stationary magnets. Neodymium are only 1.9T, and iron cored coils will not exceed 2.3T.
Are your magnets the dark circular items in your photo?
Thanks
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Photomagnetolysis is better , simple and economical:
4 magnets 80 euro
plexiglass 20 euro
china laser 20 euro
Total 120 euro
All can build it...
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Photomagnetolysis is better , simple and economical:
4 magnets 80 euro
plexiglass 20 euro
china laser 20 euro
Total 120 euro
All can build it...
Hello Franco,
That's what I like to see -Optimism. I think, a few simple pencil sketches, reminiscent of my early artistic attempts is not enough to encourage multiple attempts with your wondrous device. You have left out the time and effort trying to work out the configuration of the device. Perhaps, if you provided a clearer explanation of your intentions, we could then try to replicate and confirm workability. Constantly just supplying references to other sources that end in the deep pit of obscurity is not a design brief for your wondrous device.
You need to provide a tangible design that can be readily understood complete with any specific circuitry. At present what I see is magnets in the wrong direction, where I might expect that the Lorenze force would be part of the final concept for dissociation, given its ability to thrust electrons during the dissociation process. and intimations of tubes and chinese patent references that no-one seems to be able to locate: which, incidentally looks like it might be MHD based.
Thanks
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Air cell
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Say what you will.....The truth is that Nobody but nobody beats the awesome Malgarini paperweights!
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Say what you will.....The truth is that Nobody but nobody beats the awesome Malgarini paperweights!
Actually, this device has the appearance of a Linear Faraday Generator, albeit in its own configuration.
See an example here https://www.google.com.au/patents/US8629572
Maybe not a total loss, if only the details were more specific!
Thanks
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Cell with also High Tension
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http://autocostruire.forumcommunity.net/
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Cell with also High Tension
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Hello Franco,
Without being insulting, this last drawing is too simplistic. Without going into too much detai,l for starters, the introduction of HV will complicate your design proposition. You will need a controlled atmosphere of moist, warm humidity. Then you are more likely to create a Townsend discharge electron effect, with a high likelihood of plasma discharge. This in turn will likely breakdown the Nitrogen into hydrogen components and create mass electron flow. Your hope of creating N, H and O will be severely challenged. The chamber required to mount your HV terminals and magnets will require some serious design considerations. I'll not go any further. Good luck, you are definitely on the right track, but have to choose your direction carefully. Leave out the HV and concentrate on the Lorenze effect using magnets in "series" with your electrolysing nodes.
Good luck
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We have to experiment , experiment , experiment , but always with the goal of producing atomic gases at minimal cost ...
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We have to experiment , experiment , experiment , but always with the goal of producing atomic gases at minimal cost ...
Yes, but not to waste time trying prove something with the wrong techniques, and where the information you suggest is readily available. Often, experimenters' research their test procedures and form test hypotheses. Often, step by step, their hypotheses are successfully tested. Nothing wrong with what you are doing, its just that your drawings do not give the impression of a valid experimental procedure.
Good luck
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Ferlini experiment for water magnetolysis
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This is all very nice and good, and yet I get the impression that I am the guinea pig in this experiment ... nah, just kiddin' ^^
Thanks very much, Franco. I don't mind if you sketch the worlds future on a napkin, as long as it is genious. Which it obviously is. Whether I am able to implement it is an entirely diffrent question :^) ... excuse me for using these unscientific smileys... that's just me.
I got some palladium and gallium here. Does anyone think a palladium-"doted" Ga alloy could function as a H-splitting, paintable membrane? Probably in a magnetic field? I do imagine fairly imperfect lattice structures containing permeable tunnels for small hydrogen atoms, kind of like a coffee filter.
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My sponsor found that the secret is splitting H2O in the 40 khz range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39qURI2g6Ls
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Thanks, that's interesting, but the vid doesn't give much info, just some lab footage.
I do wonder about the neccessary amplitude or decibels, and whether there is a linear input / output ratio.
Uncoupling the methods of splitting and combusting (like: in sound, out heat) would certainly be promising, in terms of potential nonlinearity.
Also, 40kHz, even a simple, cheap joule thief could do that, just add a piezospeaker to it and sweep trough R1...
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This is all very nice and good, and yet I get the impression that I am the guinea pig in this experiment ... nah, just kiddin' ^^
I get the impression we are all of us the guinea pigs. It flits from one position to another.
Anyway, from your initial posting. Are you familiar with Randall Mills' work? Although it would seem after the years he is been at this that the opportunities are by way of investor funding! The catalyst I believe is associated with Potassium which he collects and recycles through the system.
http://brilliantlightpower.com/
Have a good day
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Thank you, the same to you!
Randall Mills, rings a bell kind of...
Pity my browser cannot handle that page. I was just reading about Hydrinos, when most of the page vanished.
Anyhow, it didn't seem very open-sourced, considering the various "registrated trademark" symbols, but maybe I am missing the point.
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Anyhow, it didn't seem very open-sourced, considering the various "registrated trademark" symbols, but maybe I am missing the point.
Hello,
I was pointing to the development of those technologies that you expressed in the start of the thread: the exception being the conversion of energy using solar cells; originally proposed back in the 1930's through the use of silicon for the facilitation of "lightning" reproduction . Also, I get the impression that Dr Randall Mills is using his selective demonstrations solely for the purpose of fund raising, which has been going on for some time.
SunCell® Generator System Design, Operation, and Hardware
The SunCell® comprises five fundamental low-maintenance systems, some having no moving parts and capable of operating for a decade or more: (i) a start-up inductively coupled heater to first melt silver or silver-copper alloy and optionally an electrode electromagnetic pump to initially direct the ignition plasma stream; (ii) an injection system comprising an electromagnetic pump to inject molten silver or molten silver-copper alloy and a gas injector to inject water vapor and optionally hydrogen gas; (iii) an ignition system to produce a low-voltage, high current flow across a pair of electrodes into which the molten metal and gases are injected to form a brilliant light-emitting plasma; (iv) a light to electricity converter comprising so-called concentrator photovoltaic cells that operate at a light intensity of over one thousand Suns; and (v) a fuel recovery and a thermal management system that causes the molten metal to return to the injection system following ignition.
The Power of the SunCell®
The SunCell® plasma-producing cell invented to harness this fundamentally new primary energy source as electrical output uses a catalyst to cause hydrogen atoms of water molecules to transition to the lower-energy Hydrino® states by allowing their electrons to fall to smaller radii around the nucleus. This results in a release of energy, that is intermediate between chemical and nuclear energies, and a nonpolluting product. The energy release of H2O fuel that can be acquired even from the humidity in the air is one hundred times that of an equivalent amount of high-octane gasoline.
I think that this is an area Franco was interested in. Using HV to extract N H O from the atmosphere, which in fact creates a resolution of unstable atmospheric conditions and a massive energy flow! . I have a good book called "Ball Lightning and Bead Lightning" J D Barry, that documents the history of investigations into lightning production. Worth reading.
However, importantly, his work is a step forward and in the marketplace.
Thanks
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There is also the electrolysis with lead amalgam catode, very simple:
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amalgam electrodes
Among the properties of mercury is that of being able to mix easily with other metals forming the so-called amalgams.
They are nothing more than special alloys formed from mercury and metals including zinc, gold, silver, etc., Excluding iron nickel and cobalt.
Depending on the percentage of mercury in these alloys, the amalgam may be liquid or solid.
If mercury is placed in a test tube and is strongly heated over a flame and they drop fragments of tin, the latter is dissolved immediately in contact with the mercury,
With the cooling can be achieved a liquid mass, pasty or solid depending on the proportions between tin and mercury.
This procedure can be used to form the amalgam to lead electrodes designed by Langmuir to produce monatomic hydrogen by electrolysis of water.
To see if you are indeed monatomic hydrogen format, just expose the electrode produced gas to a tungsten filament, such as incandescent bulbs, which should become red hot.
However be careful not producing mercury vapors that are harmful.
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Antother system is the use of circularly polarized light, with Fresnel romb:
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Other two options are with black platinum or graphene
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Two other options are those with electrolytic cells with electrodes with Devarda alloy and chemalloy , but where electricity is supplied
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Useful utilization of H1 cells:
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Making lead amalgam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JW8YGTdTjA
Very, very attention in this...
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HT on magnet ring
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Reactor finished
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Thanks everybody, and Mille Grazie Franco, very interesting data. I have to say, I still don't understand why mercury alloys would be diffrent from other metals as electrodes.
However, knowing the dangers of mercury vapours, I most likely am not going to play with it.
I was wondering if Gallium were a substitute, but the only thing they got in common is the low melting point, so I doubt it. Black Thungsten sounds good, maybe I'll find some in ebay.
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Thanks everybody, and Mille Grazie Franco, very interesting data. I have to say, I still don't understand why mercury alloys would be diffrent from other metals as electrodes.
However, knowing the dangers of mercury vapours, I most likely am not going to play with it.
I was wondering if Gallium were a substitute, but the only thing they got in common is the low melting point, so I doubt it. Black Thungsten sounds good, maybe I'll find some in ebay.
Hello,
The amalgam solution to electrolysis comes first from Irvin Langmuir 1912 study and later from page 103 of William Lyne's book "Occult Ether Physics" along with a design for Lyne's hydrogen furnace very similar to the one proposed by Franco - bit of plagiarism?
An experiment on the volatility of mercury was suggested to me some time ago, I never got round to testing it. If you have any mercury to hand, from say a switch, just drop a small drop in water and watch the reaction. Do this outside in the open air!!
I shall upload the Lyne book for you. Tread your own path with Lyne. Although he spends a lot of time researching topics and has I belive a degree in physics.