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### Author Topic: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device  (Read 78558 times)

#### minnie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1244
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2016, 10:56:44 PM »

A book, "The New Physics" authors T.Webby & B.Tinman.
John.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2016, 03:28:08 AM »
John,,

I play in the mechanical world and a constant force on and off is a square wave,, perfect and simple and true.

Besides John,, there are no such things as "ideal",, I thought you understood that.

Even in the mechanical world, the concept of the frequency content of a waveform versus its repetition rate is important.

If you were going to make a 1Hz mechanical square wave with a 50% duty cycle and a rise and fall time of .01 seconds, using a solenoid, you would need the solenoid's actuator to travel in or out in just .01 seconds.  That is much faster than the .5 seconds on and .5 seconds off of the 1Hz square wave being produced.  A sine wave that rises to its peak in .01 seconds would have a frequency of 25hz (.01 seconds to its positive peak, .01 seconds back to zero, .01 seconds to its negative peak, and .01 seconds back to zero which is .04 seconds total, or 25 Hz).  Simply stated, the 1Hz square wave created by the solenoid moving in and out as described would need to have a harmonic content that extended to at least the 25Hz necessary to produce the .01 second rise and fall time.

The squareness of the "edge", that is, the rise and fall portion of the square wave, requires a much faster rate (frequency) than the 1Hz square wave being produced.  To say that the square wave is 1Hz only implies that one full on/off cycle happens once every second but its frequency content is much higher.  If the square wave were just a pure sine wave, the frequency content would also be 1Hz.  But the 1Hz square wave contains much faster moving components (the rising and falling edges) that are created using rates (frequencies) much faster than the .5 seconds of on and off time.

If you stood next to a very loud machine that was generating a square/rectangular wave, you would probably want to use hearing protection.  While wearing the hearing protection, you would still hear the machine, but it would sound muffled.  Instead of "bang, bang, bang", you hear "thump, thump, thump".  The hearing protection is attenuating the high frequencies (harmonics) contained in the square/rectangular wave generated by the machine.

A carpenter using a hammer hitting a nail every 2 seconds is generating a .5 Hz waveform but the sound of the impact of the hammer against the nail is a sharp "bang" sound containing many high frequencies.  Although the carpenter is creating a .5Hz waveform (the rate he is hammering) the frequencies contained in that waveform are much higher.  Again, hearing protection can attenuate the higher frequencies and reduce the loud bang sound to a duller thud.

A car's muffler is another example.  Instead of the loud "bang" sound produced by an engine without a muffler, the muffler attenuates the high frequency content reducing the the exhaust sound to a rumble.  That rumble is the fundamental and lower frequency content of the engine's exhaust sound with the higher frequencies attenuated by the muffler.  The repetition rate, that is, the frequency at which the engine fires, remains the same, but the muffler attenuates the higher frequencies contained in the waveform produced as the exhaust valves open.

The point is that even though a waveform may repeat at a given rate (have a certain repetition "frequency"), the frequency content of that waveform can be vastly different.  A square wave, for example, contains a fundamental frequency (sine wave) equal to its repetition rate and a bunch of higher frequency odd harmonics (more sine waves) necessary to produce the faster square edges.

All waveshapes, regardless of their complexity, can be disassembled into the individual frequencies (sine waves) contained in and necessary to make that waveshape.

PW

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2016, 06:22:34 AM »

A book, "The New Physics" authors T.Webby & B.Tinman.
John.

Or overunity farm animals-by minnie.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2016, 06:26:42 AM »
No, using the same set of criteria, there is no such thing as a perfect square wave in the mechanical world either.

MH the mechanic is at it again.

Are you sure minneme isnt your son?.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2016, 06:30:30 AM »

Webby,
I just don't think you're getting it.
An "ideal" square wave isn't achievable in practice.
John.
As long as there are no vibrations,an ideal square wave is achievable.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2016, 06:47:08 AM »
As long as there are no vibrations,an ideal square wave is achievable.

"Ideal" of course meaning a square wave with infinitely fast rise and fall times (instantaneous) perfectly damped (no under/over shoot or ringing) containing an infinite number of odd harmonics...

PW

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2016, 07:05:48 AM »
Yes there is,, you are smart enough MH,, you might be able to figure it out,, it did take me a while to figure it out,, but I am not the sharpest tool in the shed

Just give me an example of what you believe is a perfect square wave in the mechanical world and I will then see if I can argue it out.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2016, 11:16:39 AM »
Just give me an example of what you believe is a perfect square wave in the mechanical world and I will then see if I can argue it out.

Yep--always after one.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #98 on: June 20, 2016, 11:42:55 AM »
This is an "argument" that I would be interested in seeing....

I have a very old problem with the "Wonderful" concept of "adding" together sinewaves to create the square wave.  (Well, merge, not Add.)  Simply put, it is really a math "Cheat".

Before ANYONE bothers to try to change my mind, realize that I had this very argument with very smart people decades ago, and my opinion will not change.

Both sides are CORRECT and there is NOTHING that will change that.  For a simple reality check, think of basic digital computers and digital logic that can create analog waveforms.  Are you doing this by adding together squares to construct these outputs?  (If so, apply for the Nobel...)  Any digital computer cares not for the harmonics as they don't exist in software, except in our thought when programming.  The processor knows not.

By the same token, there is NO denying that FFT works, and is very accurate.  For me it is still a math cheat, as math has many severe limitations.  This is not to say that "Looking" at the FFT method and realizing that such is possible isn't a fantastic analysis method.  There are always two ways of "Seeing" something.

For example, the simplest math problem.  Take 1 and divide by three.  Write down that value. (How ever you want as long as it's NOT as an equation, but a number.)  Multiply this number by three.  I hope this begins to explain what the REAL problem is.  There are many "Cheats" in math to get around this problem but the end result of the basic test is math doesn't always work in the way that one thinks.  It is ONLY our looking at it with intelligence that shows these problems.   Dealing with computers all the time slaps me in the face this way too often for me to ever accept (easily...) what is "proven" by math.  I will always need to see the actual physical device in operation to believe it.  (Accurate testing with proven equipment and ALL specs "might" be an exception...)

As you can imagine, I lost a LOT of respect for fellow engineers during those olden days while having to plow through calculus for multiple years.  Just because I fully understood it and always got an "A" doesn't mean I ever willingly used it nor ever hope to.  The mind can do more than the math for the basic understanding.  Then again, once into the "details" and testing of specific things, the math is a necessary evil, but I doubt Ottoman did major flow calculations before trying the 1st design of the 4 stroke engine, etc.

Of course, without FFT, and all the advanced signal processing that it has already provided, we wouldn't have half of the great things we have.  Cell phones haven't had analog transmitters or receivers in quite a while.  That is just ONE example out of thousands.  (CD's, DVD's, the list is too long....)  Just because something is a "Cheat" does NOT mean it doesn't work...

All I want to really say is:  A square wave is just that, if looking at it digitally.  For a SINGLE rise, as was initially mentioned, the harmonic content has no bearing or application.  Same with a single pulse, as the same concept applies.  Make it at all repetitive and that all changes depending on what you are doing with it.  If said square wave is being amplified and sent out as a signal with a purely digital reception, then who cares.  Send that same signal down a transmission line to get there and, NOW, you have a different situation and such things become important.  Feed ANY square wave into, say an audio amp, and you are really into the analog realm and such analysis becomes the MOST important.  Am I making sense to anyone?  Are we there yet?

So, in the SIMPLEST form, an Ideal voltage source, short wire to Relay coil, the relay turning on will not be concerned with the harmonic content of the rise of the wave, if it really exists...

Also, in the simplest form, same source, long twisted pair wire to transformer primary with secondary to audio amp...  You need a lot of math to really figure the responses accurately...  Here is where I have trouble, I would prefer to measure it at that point instead of calculate it.  There are many times things you didn't think of that the math will not expose.  Testing will.  FFT analysis will not mention that the cover happened to have a metal clip that altered the transmitters function, nor that the cover being loose will cause the "unknown" fix to be intermittent.  Math IS NOT physical.
(Even IBM designers, back in the day, were creating twisted pairs with a drill and actually testing response of different turns per inch instead of calculating what the best would be as the math just wasn't good enough at that time.  Effects of tightness of the twists was not fully known.   Yes, I was there and saw it for myself.  Now, twisted pair ethernet is common.  But, they also made the "?" circuit that took a basic crystal at 12.0000 Mhz accuracy and digitally made it 12.0000000000 Mhz accuracy.  I still believe that put the digital TTL logic into the analog realm, done digitally.  I was not privy to details but I do know that some heavy math was used, in a digital circuit?  At the time, this was all cutting edge stuff.  Talking late 70's.)

So, Please, Argue away as a lot has been changed over the years and I enjoy learning new things but both sides must eventually accept that math requires cheats and there is a reason that electronics (as well as physical devices) are called digital and analog.  The hard part is accepting that Digital electronics can used used in an analog manner and that vice versa also applies.  The application determines what you are dealing with and no one method covers ALL applications.  (To qualify that, you could use a slew of FFT to process a single rise time to a large inductor from the voltage, but why would anyone ever bother to make something so simple be such a pain in the butt?  To someone stuck in the math zone or putting on airs, OK, but to a real bench worker, you must be kidding.  Lets get into the real world for a bit.)

Be happy no one mentions quantum theory as the debate gets even worse.  (I didn't write that, someone else did...)

It is good to have some one like your self here on this forum Loner

There are many cases where this harmonic sine business is stretched beyond any practical purpose.
There are also cases where it simply dose not exist,and in some mechanical cases as well.
The binary code it self has no sine harmonic--it is either a 0 or 1--nothing in-between.
A simple drawing of a square wave on a piece of paper has no sine harmonic.
In the mechanical world,a dog clutch would resemble a square wave actuator--it is either in ore out of gear. Any vibrational harmonics that come after the engagement have nothing to do with the engagement of that dog clutch it self-->even the teeth of the clutch resemble a square wave with no sine harmonics. Now a cone or plate clutch could be seen to resemble a sine wave,where full engagement can build over time,but as i said,a dog clutch is either in or out. Most of the outboard motors used dog clutches,unless you opted for something like the johnson/evinrude selectromatic's,or the inboard velvet drives. Other than that,it is either in or out--no in-between.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #99 on: June 20, 2016, 02:29:25 PM »
Ideal world???

Torque,,

Real world,,

Pulsed Constant torque.

There is nothing to debate really,, for a given constant torque being applied it is either on or off.

Levers on the other hand do not work in a linear fashion and so have a rate of change of force,, something that must accelerate or decelerate.

The simplest of simple,,,, a string wrapped around a pulley,, pull on the string but do not let the pulley turn.

Are,but the string will oscillate up and down when pulled tight. This will cause an oscillation in the torque value--although very small,it is still there.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #100 on: June 20, 2016, 02:57:51 PM »
There is nothing to debate really,, for a given constant torque being applied it is either on or off.

The simplest of simple,,,, a string wrapped around a pulley,, pull on the string but do not let the pulley turn.

There is lots to debate if you can see.  It is literally impossible to go from a state of zero torque and then instantaneously switch to a state of say one newton-meter of torque.  There will always be a finite rise time and the torque vs. time graph will show a rounded edge to your hypothetical step function that transitions from zero torque to one newton-meter of torque.  The rounded edge is telling you that there are missing high-frequency harmonics in the torque signal.

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #101 on: June 20, 2016, 04:39:44 PM »

http://overunity.com/16650/marko-rodin-coil-007-device/msg486600/#msg486600

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2016, 05:08:04 PM »

A simple drawing of a square wave on a piece of paper has no sine harmonic.

I am perplexed that you believe that, in light of the plethora of information available on this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave

From the above, you are able to see how and why a square wave is composed of many higher harmonics when you start with the sine wave fundamental of the frequency.

If you had 100 sine wave generators at your disposal, and had them set at the following frequencies;

1kHz, 3kHz, 5kHz, 7kHz, 9kHz, 11kHz, 13kHz, 15kHz, ad infinitum... with each successive harmonic at the correct lower amplitude, you would end up with a pretty "square" 1kHz square wave, although it may not be perfect. The idea is that it clearly demonstrates that any wave form that is non-sinusoidal is composed of more frequencies than what you would measure as it's fundamental (your scope for eg. measures the fundamental when you have frequency up). Triangle, saw-tooth, rectangular (pulse), etc. are other examples of wave shapes that are composed of many frequency components. It is the specific harmonic frequencies and their relative amplitudes to the fundamental and each other which determines the wave shape.

So, if you took these 100 sine wave generators and fed them in to a 100 input summing amplifier, and turned the generators on one at a time as you went up the frequencies, on the output you would observe something very similar to the attached animated gif. (also on the web page above).

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2016, 08:00:11 PM »
There are many cases where this harmonic sine business is stretched beyond any practical purpose.
There are also cases where it simply dose not exist,and in some mechanical cases as well.

Every time you use a square wave in a circuit that you are experimenting with and see peaking, ringing, slope, etc, you are seeing this concept in action.  You are seeing the effect your circuit has at the various frequencies (harmonics) contained in your square wave.  Knowing what a square wave morphs into when you boost or cut various harmonics allows you to better understand what the scope's display is telling you.

http://www.kennethkuhn.com/students/ee351/text/square_wave_testing.pdf

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/squarewave.htm

PW

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2016, 01:49:03 AM »

http://overunity.com/16650/marko-rodin-coil-007-device/msg486600/#msg486600

No-you are never on ignore Poynt.

To me,a pure square wave would mean just that-pure,and that would mean that the wave shape is pure--free from harmonic ripple.
No one said that the animation PW supplied was a pure square wave,in fact,the opposite is true,where to me,that animation dose not show a pure square wave.

So,it is safe to say that we cannot have a pure square wave form,as everything has an elasticity value,and the harmonics are due to elastic vibration--in electrical terms,we could see that as being !inductive reactance!?.