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### Author Topic: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device  (Read 87150 times)

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2016, 11:29:31 AM »
The voltage in the capacitor starts to increase.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2039
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2016, 02:46:41 PM »

No and N0,as both are not ideal.
Having resistance enables power to be dissipated as heat,and having no resistance(ideal),means that power cannot be dissipated.

Are you saying that in the examples I have given it is the amplifier's output impedance of .01R and/or the inductor's .1R DC resistance that is somehow determining or limiting the current flow when the square wave driving the inductor transitions between +30 and -30 volts (as opposed to the frequency content and inductance)?

Assuming no DC offset in the amplifier, would using an amplifier with a 10X lower output impedance or a 5mH inductor with a 10X lower DC resistance, or a combination of both, substantially increase the observed current flow during the +30 to -30 volt transition?

The audio power amplifier, within its performance capabilities, is a fair approximation of an ideal voltage source (particularly if we assume zero volts of DC offset).  Similar to an ideal voltage source, the amplifier will source or sink whatever current is required to force the output to be at the selected voltage.  Unlike the ideal voltage source, the audio power amplifier can only sink or source an amount of current that is within its design limits whereas an ideal voltage source can sink or source an infinite amount of current if necessary.

PW

« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 05:03:26 PM by picowatt »

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2016, 03:13:16 PM »
While this discussion is very interesting, isn't anyone concerned that the available materials (pdf, documents and videos) from the Rodin coil proponents all seem to indicate that the claims of "overunity" are based on measurements or calculations of reactive or apparent power output compared to real power input?

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2039
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2016, 03:27:25 PM »
While this discussion is very interesting, isn't anyone concerned that the available materials (pdf, documents and videos) from the Rodin coil proponents all seem to indicate that the claims of "overunity" are based on measurements or calculations of reactive or apparent power output compared to real power input?

TK,

As you already pointed out, we've seen the Irms X Vrms thing and disregard for phase shift/PF before.

Did you look at page 10 of the PDF I posted regarding current probe Russ is using?  The phase shift of the current probe is pretty severe at some of the fundamentals and harmonics he is using.

With regard to the page of data you posted showing a scope capture and power "calculations", where was that info taken from?  Was there a schematic provided for the test/measurement setup?

Where are these "materials" located?

PW

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2016, 04:38:18 PM »
As you stated in your example,the amplifier can be a current sink or source,as it has resistance,and that being the reason it gets hot. In MHs example,all is ideal,and has no resistance,and there for cannot sink or dissipate energy. The stored energy in the inductor is not just !gone! as MH put it,when the voltage polarity is reversed across the circuit-that still has stored energy from the previous applied voltage.That stored energy has to be dissipated,but there is no where for this stored energy to be dissipated,as there is no resistance in the circuit.

Why do you assume that the energy has to be dissipated?

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2016, 05:12:09 PM »
TK,

As you already pointed out, we've seen the Irms X Vrms thing and disregard for phase shift/PF before.

Did you look at page 10 of the PDF I posted regarding current probe Russ is using?  The phase shift of the current probe is pretty severe at some of the fundamentals and harmonics he is using.

With regard to the page of data you posted showing a scope capture and power "calculations", where was that info taken from?  Was there a schematic provided for the test/measurement setup?

Where are these "materials" located?

PW

The scopeshot and power calculation images I posted are in the "007" pdf here:

No, there is no complete, or even partial, schematic shown in that document.

I don't see what they are using for a current probe in that report. They are, however, using a TPP0500B passive 500MHz voltage probe (about 600 dollars new) to measure their 641 Hz and 1574 Hz  approximately sinusoidal oscillations.
(None of the scopeshots shown in the paper show the "2168 Hz" frequency claimed in the first page of the report.)

The LED loadbank is said to be "close to full illumination" but of course there is no actual measurement of light output. Anyone who has actually done instrumental measurements of light from LEDs or incandescent bulbs can testify to the fact that the naked eye is relatively insensitive to even large changes in actual light output as measured by a lux or lumens meter. So the subjective "close to full illumination" claim can be disregarded as nothing more than an unreliable anecdotal statement. In fact if the naked eye judges them to be not fully lit, then they are probably running at _much_ less than full power.

Surely a lab that would use a 600 dollar 500 MHz probe to scope a 1574 Hz sinusoid on a 350 MHz scope could arrange to do some proper luminance measurements. Don't you think so?

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2039
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2016, 05:52:30 PM »
But that is nothing like the test conditions stated in MH question.
There is no sine wave,as the voltages applied to the circuit(being the coil and ideal voltage source)are of a square wave pattern.The transition is not starting from a low point and ramping up to a high point,the transition is instant,and there is no resistance to sink the existing current flowing through the circuit.

Try to visualize this in the frequency domain.

The only difference between the 1kHz sine wave and the 1kHz square wave is that we are adding additional, higher frequency sine waves (harmonics) to the fundamental sine wave of 1kHz to create the square wave.  The number of harmonics added depends on how square, or fast, we desire the rising/falling edges to be.

An infinitely fast transition (instantaneous transition) requires an infinite number of harmonics (infinitely high frequency content).  In the real world, a decent square wave can be realized with 5 harmonics.  However, fast transitions with very fast (straight) rise and fall transitions and nice looking sharp corners requires considerable bandwidth (additional harmonics).

Each of those added harmonics are just additional sine waves with progressively higher frequencies.  Because the reactance of the inductor increases with frequency, current flow will decrease with respect to each harmonic added to the fundamental sine wave.

A faster transition contains higher harmonics (frequencies) which means less current flow through the inductor for those higher frequencies due to the increased reactance of the inductor at those frequencies.

As I have suggested many times, consider looking at various FG waveforms using your scope's FFT function to visualize the frequency content of those waveforms as you change their parameters.

Alternately, without a DSO to produce FFT's, passing a 2kHz square wave through an audio graphic (or parametric) equalizer while watching the output with a scope as the equalizer's controls are adjusted can be informative.

PW

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2039
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2016, 05:56:18 PM »

Surely a lab that would use a 600 dollar 500 MHz probe to scope a 1574 Hz sinusoid on a 350 MHz scope could arrange to do some proper luminance measurements. Don't you think so?

One would think...

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

PW

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2016, 06:27:24 PM »
Try to visualize this in the frequency domain.

Very few people on the forums understand the concept that a signal in the time domain can be expressed in the frequency domain.  Likewise very few understand that you can transpose a signal back and forth between the time domain and the frequency domain using Fourier transforms and inverse Fourier transforms.

This is more abstract a concept than an ideal voltage source or an ideal current source.  Let's hope for the best.

I am attaching a graphic for a square wave in the frequency domain.  Of course this only shows the positive frequencies.  There is no point in discussing the negative frequencies that make up a square wave because that would be a mind-bender that would generate 200+ postings of abject refusal with a slim possibility of surrender.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2039
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2016, 06:35:15 PM »
Animation of adding sine waves (harmonics) to make a square wave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave#/media/File:Fourier_series_for_square_wave.gif

Taken from the Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave

PW

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2016, 06:38:43 PM »
Thank god for the web.  The attached squiggly lines are the final result of the "proof" but actually explaining how you get there step by step is possible if you really want to do that too.  I have to assume that there are some serious classroom lectures on YouTube for those so inclined.  It seems that the Indian universities put a lot of this stuff out there and perhaps professor Walter Lewin did also.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2039
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2016, 06:44:01 PM »
Thank god for the web.  The attached squiggly lines are the final result of the "proof" but actually explaining how you get there step by step is possible if you really want to do that too.  I have to assume that there are some serious classroom lectures on YouTube for those so inclined.  It seems that the Indian universities put a lot of this stuff out there and perhaps professor Walter Lewin did also.

Perhaps it would be best to just firmly plant the visualization for now...

PW

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2016, 06:47:00 PM »
Animation of adding sine waves (harmonics) to make a square wave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave#/media/File:Fourier_series_for_square_wave.gif

Taken from the Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave

PW

And much to the chagrin of many those little initial overshoot spikes never go away!  I seem to recall a teacher saying that a mathematician proved that the final overshoot height of the spikes settles down to a certain finite value as omega goes to infinity.  You end up with infinitely narrow overshoot spikes of a finite height!

The wonders of mathematics!

#### minnie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1244
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2016, 12:22:32 AM »

Don't leave your ideal current source "open circuit".

What might happen?

John.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2016, 12:53:09 AM »
Don't leave your ideal current source "open circuit".

What might happen?

John.

You get the prize for the best question in eons.

Imagine your ideal current source is 5 amperes.  Say the two terminals of the ideal current source are one meter apart.  There is a nice aluminum bus bar that shorts the two terminals together.  As long as the bus bar is in place all is well.  You can sense the forbidden fruit already.

Now, if someone were to remove that bus bar or if it were to suddenly disappear, then you would not want to be in the same room.  There would be a highly unpredictable raging snarling unstoppable plasma arc between the two terminals that would be extremely nasty.

If the same thing happened in space where there was no possible conductive medium for the current then we would go back to the good old Universe imploding and the end of all existence as we know it.