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Author Topic: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device  (Read 30700 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2016, 01:45:25 AM »
Perhaps it would be best to just firmly plant the visualization for now...

PW

One would think that an !ideal! voltage source would have no harmonics,but only an ideal voltage.
One would also think that these harmonics are a result of the inductance of the test equipment"s leads and components,and not the voltage it self.

As for Russ,and what he is doing--i do recall him asking any EE guys out there that were watching his first video,to point out any mistakes he was making in his measurements.
I see a lot of guys here presenting all sorts of reasons there could be mistakes with his measurements so far,and this is ok to do of course. But is there any one here that is also actually testing the same device?. If there was one of the higher end EE guys here testing the device,then they could actually say where Russ is making his mistakes. But as it stands at the moment,we have only those !guessing! at what or where the mistakes are being made.

The other thing i have found over the years,is that as long as the measurements made come in at underunity,then no one questions the measurements taken. But when overunity measurements are presented,the eagle eyes are wide open,and watching without a blink.

Is there anyone here well versed in EE that is going to replicate and test?.


Brad

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2016, 01:45:25 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2016, 01:51:03 AM »
You get the prize for the best question in eons.

Imagine your ideal current source is 5 amperes.  Say the two terminals of the ideal current source are one meter apart.  There is a nice aluminum bus bar that shorts the two terminals together.  As long as the bus bar is in place all is well.  You can sense the forbidden fruit already.

Now, if someone were to remove that bus bar or if it were to suddenly disappear, then you would not want to be in the same room.  There would be a highly unpredictable raging snarling unstoppable plasma arc between the two terminals that would be extremely nasty.



Quote
If the same thing happened in space where there was no possible conductive medium for the current then we would go back to the good old Universe imploding and the end of all existence as we know it.

Well that is incorrect.
The correct answer would be--nothing happens at all.



Brad

Offline poynt99

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2016, 02:23:42 AM »
One would think that an !ideal! voltage source would have no harmonics,but only an ideal voltage.
One would also think that these harmonics are a result of the inductance of the test equipment"s leads and components,and not the voltage it self.
It seems you're missing the point being made here.

If the voltage source is ideal and there are no distortion mechanisms present anywhere (always assumed in these discussions unless noted otherwise) then the harmonic content is determined by the wave shape.

Yes, if a pure sine wave is selected, then there are no harmonics. If a pure square wave is selected, then there is the fundamental frequency, plus all the odd ordered harmonics. Harmonic content is a function of the wave form.

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2016, 02:23:42 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2016, 02:40:17 AM »
It seems you're missing the point being made here.

If the voltage source is ideal and there are no distortion mechanisms present anywhere (always assumed in these discussions unless noted otherwise) then the harmonic content is determined by the wave shape.

Yes, if a pure sine wave is selected, then there are no harmonics.

Quote
If a pure square wave is selected, then there is the fundamental frequency, plus all the odd ordered harmonics. Harmonic content is a function of the wave form.

That makes no sense to me.
If the wave form is pure,how can it have harmonic content?.
If there is any ripple !such as shown in PWs animation! in the wave form,then how is it a pure wave form?.
To me,a pure square wave form would have no harmonic ripple as shown in PWs animation. For example,a pure square wave would be like placing a scope across a 12 volt battery for 1 second,and then disconnect it for one second--and repeat process. This to me would show a pure 12 volt square wave with a 50% duty cycle. This harmonic ripple in a square wave can only come from the equipment ,and not the source.


Brad

Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2016, 02:54:36 AM »
One would think that an !ideal! voltage source would have no harmonics,but only an ideal voltage.

I had hoped that if you considered this exercise in the frequency domain it may make more sense to you.

EVERY waveform that you can imagine can be disassembled into the group of sine waves of various amplitudes that can be summed together to produce those waveforms.  This is the basis of Fourier analysis.

Fortunately, we need only push a few buttons on a DSO or digital data acquisition system to produce the Fast Fourier Transforms (FFT's) that in years past required laborious math.  When you use the FFT display on your scope, it displays the frequency of the sine waves (and their amplitudes) contained in the waveform being analyzed.  I am not sure what your scope is capable of, but even a basic FFT function should prove interesting to you.

This is a hugely important concept as very often a complex waveform or simple square wave contains many more frequencies, typically higher frequencies, than the  trigger repetition rate displayed on your scope would have you believe.  A decent looking 1kHz square wave will contain harmonics out to 10-20kHz.  If it has very fast rise and fall times, those frequencies can extend into the 10's or 100's of MHz.  All the time the trigger on the scope will just say it is a 1kHz square wave.

Take the time to read thru all my recent posts again, hopefully they will all make a bit more sense to you.

Consider digging thru your scope's manual and play around with your FFT display.  Feed your FG to both scope channels and watch the waveform in time domain (normally) on one channel while watching an FFT (frequency domain) of that waveform on the other channel (assuming your scope can do that).  Play around with various waveforms and duty cycles.  If you take the time to do this, in time you will be able to look at a waveform displayed on a scope and make a pretty good guesstimate of its actual frequency content.

PW

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2016, 02:54:36 AM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2016, 03:08:05 AM »
That makes no sense to me.
If the wave form is pure,how can it have harmonic content?.
If there is any ripple !such as shown in PWs animation! in the wave form,then how is it a pure wave form?.

The animation started out as a pure waveform, that is, a single sine wave.  As additional harmonics were added to that pure sine, it was no longer a "pure waveform" but instead morphed into a square wave as harmonics were added.  Note that the repetition rate remained at the same frequency as the original sine wave, but as it became a square wave, its frequency content increased as harmonics (additional sine waves) were added to the original, single frequency, pure sine wave.

Quote
To me,a pure square wave form would have no harmonic ripple as shown in PWs animation. For example,a pure square wave would be like placing a scope across a 12 volt battery for 1 second,and then disconnect it for one second--and repeat process. This to me would show a pure 12 volt square wave with a 50% duty cycle. This harmonic ripple in a square wave can only come from the equipment ,and not the source.

The square wave you are creating has a frequency of .5Hz.  That would be the fundamental, the first sine wave necessary to make that waveshape.  Your waveform has very fast edges, so you know it can't be just a pure .5Hz sine wave.  So, we start adding harmonics to the .5Hz sine wave until we arrive at the square wave you created.  Conversely, we can look at your square wave and mathematically analyze it, that is, disassemble it, to determine what frequencies are contained in that waveshape.   

The ideal voltage source in MH's question is producing a long period rectangular waveshape that does not have a 50% duty cycle and has very fast (assumed to be instantaneous) transitions.  The fundamental will have a very low (sub 1Hz) frequency but in order to make the waveform rectangular, and with very fast transitions, many harmonics must be added to the fundamental to create that waveshape.

Only a pure (non-distorted) sine wave contains just one particular frequency.  As soon as that sine wave deviates in the slightest from being a pure sine wave (starts to look "ugly") it contains additional frequencies (harmonics).  This is what is meant by harmonic distortion in an amplifier.  A pure sine wave goes in, but that sine wave, if distorted in the least, will contain additional harmonics on the amplifier output.  if driven to the point of clipping, the output begins to resemble a square wave and contains a lot of harmonic content.

That GIF animation from the Wiki link shows how sine waves are added together to make a square wave.

Again, EVERY waveshape imaginable can be disassembled into a group of various sine waves at various amplitudes  that make up that waveshape.

If you have an audio graphic equalizer, try feeding a 1 or 2 kHz square wave into it while excercising the controls and watching the output on a scope.  Then feed in a 1 or 2kHz sine wave and repeat your observations.  This will readily demonstrate that the square wave does indeed contain additional frequencies.

PW 

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2016, 02:27:28 PM »
And the truth is that over the past five years this extremely important subject matter about understanding the concepts relating to the frequency content in signals has probably been covered between a dozen and two dozen times, sometimes in depth.  Some people obviously were not listening and the revolving door of knowledge keeps on turning.

Rolling on the river...

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2016, 02:27:28 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2016, 02:49:27 PM »
That makes no sense to me.
If the wave form is pure,how can it have harmonic content?.
Perhaps the term "pure" is confusing to some, although the techies all know what we mean. Pure, as in exact, precise. When I refer to a "pure" square wave, that means perfectly flat tops and bottoms, and infinitely-fast transitions. And as such, this wave form is going to contain a hell of a lot of frequency harmonics (odd only) going to infinity (although the amplitude of each successive odd harmonic decreases).

Quote
If there is any ripple !such as shown in PWs animation! in the wave form,then how is it a pure wave form?.
It isn't. The purpose of the demo was to show you that the square wave is made up of many frequency components, and that the more harmonics you add, the more perfectly "square" it becomes. Who referred to PW's animation as demonstrating a pure square wave?

Quote
To me,a pure square wave form would have no harmonic ripple as shown in PWs animation. For example,a pure square wave would be like placing a scope across a 12 volt battery for 1 second,and then disconnect it for one second--and repeat process. This to me would show a pure 12 volt square wave with a 50% duty cycle.
Yes, but do you understand that any "pure" (perfect)  square wave contains many odd-ordered frequency components called harmonics?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2016, 05:59:27 PM »
Well that is incorrect.
The correct answer would be--nothing happens at all.

Brad

No my answer was not a correct answer, it was just a joke.

The correct and serious answer would be as follows:

There is no point in even considering what would happen if you had an ideal current source connected to an open circuit with no means of conduction between the two terminals.  It is what is essentially an invalid thought experiment, just like saying connecting an ideal voltage source to a short circuit is an invalid thought experiment.

The real takeaway is as follows:

For an ideal voltage source, as the load resistance tends towards zero, the current tends towards infinity and the power output tends towards infinity.

For an ideal current source, as the load resistance tends towards infinity, the voltage tends towards infinity and the power output tends towards infinity.

Zero output power for a voltage source is an open circuit for the load.
Zero output power for a current source is a short circuit for the load.

A capacitor acts like a temporary ideal voltage source.
An inductor acts like a temporary ideal current source.

These concepts should become like a second nature for an electronics hobbyist.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2016, 05:59:27 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2016, 07:01:51 PM »
,, so then you are stating that a square wave can be described by an appropriate number of rectangles??

No, we are saying that a square wave can be described by an appropriate number of sine waves (a fundamental frequency and odd harmonics) that when summed together results in a square wave.

PW

Offline minnie

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2016, 08:12:40 PM »



   Webby,
         I found Wiki was helpful with regards to square wave.
              John.

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2016, 08:12:40 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2016, 10:09:53 PM »
The answer to your question is because it's often much easier to determine how a circuit that consists of capacitors, inductors, and resistors will respond to a sine wave compared to a square wave.  So instead of dealing with a difficult problem based on a square wave, you break it down into several easy to answer problems based on a series of sine waves.  Then when you start to think like this, you are always thinking about the frequency content in a given waveform.

The circle is a form of perfection, it is a pure form.  A sine wave is just one component of a circle.  If a circle is two-dimensional, then a sine wave is like a one-dimensional version of a circle.  A sine wave is a perfect form, a pure single tone.  A pure sine wave has a width of zero in the frequency spectrum.

Put a sine wave and a cosine wave together at a right angle and you get a perfect circle.  You can analyze just about anything by looking at how it responds to perfect sine waves.

Offline minnie

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2016, 10:19:16 PM »



 Webby,
          I just don't think you're getting it.
 An "ideal" square wave isn't achievable in practice.
        John.

Offline minnie

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2016, 10:42:39 PM »



   Webby,
        I give up!!!
            John.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2016, 10:49:27 PM »
John,,

I play in the mechanical world and a constant force on and off is a square wave,, perfect and simple and true.

Besides John,, there are no such things as "ideal",, I thought you understood that.

No, using the same set of criteria, there is no such thing as a perfect square wave in the mechanical world either.

 

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