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Author Topic: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device  (Read 30150 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2016, 02:12:43 AM »
To me,a pure square wave would mean just that-pure,and that would mean that the wave shape is pure--free from harmonic ripple.

Brad

Actually Brad, a pure square wave would mean.... That the wave shape is pure - including all of the harmonic ripple.  It must include all of the harmonic ripple to be a pure square wave.

So the team has probably tried around five times but unfortunately you got it backwards.  :(

I suppose the experts can try one more time to see if it will sink in.

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2016, 02:12:43 AM »

Offline poynt99

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2016, 03:16:38 AM »
To me,a pure square wave would mean just that-pure,and that would mean that the wave shape is pure--free from harmonic ripple.
Brad,

A perfectly flat and square square-wave contains an infinite order of odd harmonic frequencies.

A perfectly flat, but not-so-square square-wave (where the edges have a finite rise time) will contain a limited order of odd harmonic frequencies.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2016, 03:44:11 AM »

To me,a pure square wave would mean just that-pure,and that would mean that the wave shape is pure--free from harmonic ripple.


These are not just abstract mathematical concepts that don't exist in the real world...

Imagine you have a tunable bandpass filter with a narrow bandwidth in the passband.  You connect your function generator output to the filter's input and monitor the filter output on a scope.

With the FG set to output a 1kHz sine wave you tune the filter to 1kHz and you see a 1kHz sine wave on your scope.  As you increase the filter's frequency, the signal disappears from the scope and you see only noise.  If your sine wave was "perfect", you would not see any more signals at the filter output as you continue to tune upward.

But your sine wave is not perfect, so at 2kHz you see a very low amplitude signal and have to crank up the scope, but you do see that there is a low amplitude 2kHz sine wave being displayed.  That is the first of the sine wave's even order harmonic distortion (the 2nd harmonic).  As you continue to tune higher with the filter, you again see nothing but noise until you reach 3kHz, where once again you see a very small amplitude 3kHz sine wave which is the first of the sine wave's odd order harmonic distortion (the 3rd harmonic).  Which harmonics you see, and their amplitudes, is dependent on the design and specifications of your FG (how far the generated sine wave deviates from perfect).  Analog FG's typically had "not so great" THD values of around 1% to .5% (Total Harmonic Distortion being the sum of the harmonic amplitudes expressed as a percentage of the fundamental's amplitude).  Digital function generators (like yours) are likely better than this, perhaps less than .1%.  Some digital sine wave generation techniques can effectively remove all the lower order harmonics.  Signal generators purpose built for generating only low distortion sine waves can have very low THD.  For example, I have analog sine wave generators capable of around .00015% THD (out to the fifth harmonic).

(The point of course being that if the 1kHz sine wave was a perfect sine wave, it would contain no harmonics at all.  Only when the filter is tuned to 1kHz would you see any signal at the filter's output.)


OK, so now you repeat the above tests but switch your FG to produce a 1kHz square wave.  As you tune the filter to 1kHz you see a large 1kHz sine wave displayed on the scope.  This is the square wave's fundamental frequency of 1kHz.  As you tune the filter frequency upward, the signal on the scope disappears into the noise floor.  You pass 2kHz seeing nothing but noise until you reach 3kHz on the filter when suddenly a 3kHz sine wave appears on your scope.  The amplitude of this 3rd harmonic is fairly large, being about 2/3 of the amplitude of the 1kHz fundamental.  You continue tuning the filter frequency upward and again see nothing but noise until you reach 5kHz where again you see another sine wave appear on the scope.  This 5kHz sine wave, the 5th harmonic, has an amplitude about half that of the observed 3kHz sine wave.  As you continue to tune the filter upward, you note that you see a sine wave at every odd harmonic (3kHz, 5kHz, 7kHz, 9kHz, 11kHz, 13kHz, 15kHz, etc) with the amplitude decreasing with each higher harmonic.

In reality, if the duty cycle of the square wave is not perfectly 50%, you will see some low amplitude even order harmonics (2nd, 4th, etc) due to the square wave deviating from being "perfectly square" but the amplitude of these harmonics will be very low compared to the odd order harmonics (unless you adjust the duty cycle to be something other than 50%).

The FFT display on your scope can be used instead of a tunable filter.  The FFT can mathematically analyze the digitized waveform and output a graphic display of the various frequencies, and their amplitudes, contained in the waveform.

In the days before digital, using a tunable analog filter to determine frequency/harmonic content was quite common.  A tunable analog filter was the basis for most distortion and spectrum analyzers.  Today, converting analog signals to digital and using Fourier analysis is becoming more common.

PW

If you have an audio graphic equalizer available, connect your FG output to the equalizer's input and monitor the equalizer's output with your scope.  Feed a 1kHz sine wave into it and play around with the equalizer's boost/cut controls at the various frequency bands it covers (a rather boring exercise).  Then switch the FG's output to a 1kHz square wave and again play around with the equalizer's boost/cut controls.  What the equalizer does to the frequency content of the square wave, that is, the various shapes the square wave morphs into as you boost/cut various frequencies can be most informative (and a good way to test graphic equalizers...).
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 06:24:26 AM by picowatt »

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2016, 03:44:11 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #108 on: June 21, 2016, 06:23:11 AM »
There is no "pure" anything,,

Pure, perfect,, ideal,,

No pure sine wave,, no pure square wave,, no perfect circles,, no perfect squares,, the Universe is not ideal, perfect or pure.

A pure anything would not have anything but what it is,, so to say anything other is nonsense,, the word pure takes care of anything else being present.

Ideals only work in an ideal experiment that is not carried out in the real world with real things.

I would have to agree Webby.
To be pure,is to have nothing but the stated.
As there is no such thing as pure in the real world,that can only mean we cannot have a pure wave form of any type-depending on how closely  you want to look at that wave form.

But as you say,in an ideal world,such purity could exist,and as MHs question uses an ideal voltage source,you would think the step from one  voltage value to another would be ideal,and result in a pure square wave shape without this harmonic ripple being present.

The real issue is-what difference dose it make in regards to the subject at hand ?


Brad

Offline poynt99

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2016, 03:55:39 PM »
Brad,

I'm curious if you read this and if you watched the animation?

Does it make sense?

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2016, 03:55:39 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2016, 05:30:16 PM »



   If you try "Allaboutcircuits square wave" there's a lot there that seems to
 agree with Poynt's point of view.
    Just having a little break from wielding my 14lb. sledge hammer.
           John.

Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2016, 05:38:19 PM »
Brad,

I'm curious if you read this and if you watched the animation?

Does it make sense?

I tried to open the animation folder,but it says it is invalid or corrupt.

Quote: A square wave is a non-sinusoidal periodic waveform (which can be represented as an infinite summation of sinusoidal waves.
An infinite amount of sinusoidal waves would just be a solid block--a wave form that occupies all space. This is becoming more confusing--not easier.


Brad

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2016, 05:38:19 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #112 on: June 21, 2016, 06:39:29 PM »
Yeah, the zip didn't work for some reason.

Well, the animation is on the web page I linked to.

Quote
An infinite amount of sinusoidal waves would just be a solid block--a wave form that occupies all space. This is becoming more confusing--not easier.
You need to look at it a different way than you are.

I seems you are envisioning a whole mess of equal amplitude sine waves drawn on an x-y plot. That is a start but you need to take a couple of more steps to get there.

Draw a sine wave with amplitude 1V. Now on the same plot draw a sine wave triple the frequency and 1/3 the amplitude. Next, draw a sine wave of 5 times the frequency and 1/5 the amplitude. Break the x axis into say 100 points. At each x point you add the y values of the fundamental and the 3rd and 5th harmonics that you drew. The progression should look like the attached pics if you were to add the fundamental and 3rd together first, then the 5th . See how it is becoming square-ish?

As you keep adding more and more harmonics (7, 9, 11, etc), it becomes more square.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2016, 06:43:40 PM »
I tried to open the animation folder,but it says it is invalid or corrupt.

Quote: A square wave is a non-sinusoidal periodic waveform (which can be represented as an infinite summation of sinusoidal waves.
An infinite amount of sinusoidal waves would just be a solid block--a wave form that occupies all space. This is becoming more confusing--not easier.


Brad

I have not looked at .99's zip file but if it says the above, just ignore that for now and go with the "contains an infinite number of odd harmonics" definition.  This assumes, of course, that you are dealing with a perfect square wave as I previously discussed.

Just think of all the crazy 1kHz waveforms you can create using your FG by selecting sine, triangle, or square wave and messing about with the duty cycle and rise/fall times.  All those different waveshapes and yet your scope and FG continue to just readout 1kHz.  The difference between each waveshape is the additional, higher than the 1kHz fundamental, harmonics/frequencies contained in each waveform.

I believe your FG has two channel outputs.  You could combine a 1kHz sine wave (fundamental) from one channel with a 3kHz sine wave (3rd harmonic) from the other channel and begin to see a square wave develop.  If you could continue to add additional odd harmonics (or at least imagine doing so), each additional harmonic would fill in a bit more of the observed ripple.  5 harmonics makes a pretty good looking square wave, but as they say, the more the merrier...   

I do not believe that as an experimenter, this concept is going to "click" with you until you see evidence of it for yourself.  Consider performing the simple tests I have described using an audio graphic equalizer.  I think it will help solidify the concept.

You should also become familiar with the FFT function on your scope.  Feeding various waveforms from your FG into your scope's FFT function will reveal the additional frequency content of any particular waveshape. 

It would be time well spent...

PW

Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2016, 07:01:22 PM »
Yeah, the zip didn't work for some reason.

Well, the animation is on the web page I linked to.
You need to look at it a different way than you are.

I seems you are envisioning a whole mess of equal amplitude sine waves drawn on an x-y plot. That is a start but you need to take a couple of more steps to get there.

Draw a sine wave with amplitude 1V. Now on the same plot draw a sine wave triple the frequency and 1/3 the amplitude. Next, draw a sine wave of 5 times the frequency and 1/5 the amplitude. Break the x axis into say 100 points. At each x point you add the y values of the fundamental and the 3rd and 5th harmonics that you drew. The progression should look like the attached pics if you were to add the fundamental and 3rd together first, then the 5th . See how it is becoming square-ish?

As you keep adding more and more harmonics (7, 9, 11, etc), it becomes more square.

In my previous post #123 I stated that the 3rd harmonic was 2/3 the level of the fundamental.

Funny thing is I originally wrote 1/3.  I was thinking in decibels and that the 3rd harmonic is down close to 10dB, which is roughly a factor of three, and had it right the first time.  By the end of my long winded post I changed it to 2/3 for some unexplainable reason.  Brain fade I guess.

.99 is of course correct, the level of the 3rd harmonic will be 1/3 the fundamental (close to 10dB down).

I am going to calmly write off the error to old age and the onset of dementia...

PW   

Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2016, 01:43:28 AM »
I have not looked at .99's zip file but if it says the above, just ignore that for now and go with the "contains an infinite number of odd harmonics" definition.  This assumes, of course, that you are dealing with a perfect square wave as I previously discussed.

Just think of all the crazy 1kHz waveforms you can create using your FG by selecting sine, triangle, or square wave and messing about with the duty cycle and rise/fall times.  All those different waveshapes and yet your scope and FG continue to just readout 1kHz.  The difference between each waveshape is the additional, higher than the 1kHz fundamental, harmonics/frequencies contained in each waveform.

I believe your FG has two channel outputs.  You could combine a 1kHz sine wave (fundamental) from one channel with a 3kHz sine wave (3rd harmonic) from the other channel and begin to see a square wave develop.  If you could continue to add additional odd harmonics (or at least imagine doing so), each additional harmonic would fill in a bit more of the observed ripple.  5 harmonics makes a pretty good looking square wave, but as they say, the more the merrier...   

I do not believe that as an experimenter, this concept is going to "click" with you until you see evidence of it for yourself.  Consider performing the simple tests I have described using an audio graphic equalizer.  I think it will help solidify the concept.

You should also become familiar with the FFT function on your scope.  Feeding various waveforms from your FG into your scope's FFT function will reveal the additional frequency content of any particular waveshape. 

It would be time well spent...

PW

As i managed to screw up the current/voltage waveforms being ass about on the scope,i think i should first learn the basics of reading a scope in normal operation  :D
I have had a quick look at the FFT function,and i can indeed display this at the same time,using the split screen display. I also see what you mean about the harmonics in a square wave generated by my FG.

But please remember,that this is not my forte,and it will take me some time to get my head around all this,and what it means to the outcome of power measurements-if anything at all?.


Brad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2016, 09:28:53 PM »
Russ is back and the project starts to move forward.

So Jbignes5 has given you guys on Russ' forum the whole spiel on plasma and the coil as he sees it.  I think that it would be wise to split the thread into two threads, practical and theoretical side.

On the theoretical side, you have read what Jbignes5 has had to say.  From earlier on, I stated that the Rodin coil is just an inefficient way of making an inductor with wire because of the excessive amount of magnetic field self-cancellation that is taking place.  Beyond that, the Rodin coil is just like any other inductor, no more, no less.

On the practical side, Russ needs to make a reference control coil of approximately the same inductance as the Rodin coil.  The pdf that I looked at had no schematic, no test procedure, and showed voltage and current "output" waveforms that were nearly 90 degrees out of phase indicating there was next to no real output power.  Shockingly, the person that wrote that report was apparently unaware of this, so that means the person is not credible, and the report is not credible.

It looks like Russ and all of you guys need to develop a proper schematic and test procedure by yourselves, then test the Rodin coil and the control coil step by step and see what you get.  Never keep your eye off the ball - electrical power out vs. electrical power in is what the whole thing is about.

On the practical side, you can expect that you will not see anything related to plasma at all, and Jbignes5 will have to explain that one.  There is nothing special about plasma, anybody can look it up and read all about it.

MileHigh

 

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