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Author Topic: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.  (Read 5006 times)

Offline thevorlon

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Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« on: November 06, 2006, 09:06:35 AM »
From what I unstand sticky points are the biggest problem with permanent magnet motors. However, something is not sitting right in my mind.

Consider you have a stator consisting of several permanent magnets with their north pole facing in at a rotor with it's north pole facing them. The stator's permanent magnets are in a spiral slowly getting further away from the rotor magnet. Now, the following is my question.

Lets say you manually push the rotor past the sticky point which is the first and closest stator magnet. Does the rotor then ACCELERATE with each and every push from a different stator magnet or is it's speed constant? For example, if you had a series of ten stator magnets and took the last two away would it's speed be less than if you had used all ten?

You see, I'm trying to figure out if the rotor would gain more energy once past the sticky point than it would take to overcome the first magnet. Obviously, this simple of a configuration has been tried before and did not work. What I'm trying to figure out is WHY. Is the sticky point really a SUM force of ALL the magnets? Or is it just the force of the FIRST magnet the rotor has to push past?

Basically, can a setup such as I described give a final exit speed greater than what it takes to break through the first sticky point? Yes or no and why?

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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2006, 09:12:16 AM »
Is the sticky point really a SUM force of ALL the magnets? Or is it just the force of the FIRST magnet the rotor has to push past?

i guess it is both im not. anyone else?

Offline shipto

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2006, 02:08:51 PM »
This is one of the things I have been pondering in the design I am thinking about (its on the drawing boar.. er kitchen table at the moment) you would have 6.3 steel balls under forward force (magnetic or gravity) and maybe one at a sticky point. as far as I can work out its just a case of making sure that the forces from the 6.3 add up to more than the force holding the one near the sticky point.
I could be wrong though I am rather new to this stuff and what I have in mind has probably been tried but hey ho.

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2006, 02:08:51 PM »
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2006, 04:07:31 PM »
I think you've reinvented the Yasunori Takahashi motor:
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/wankel.htm
Paul.

Offline Gregory

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2006, 08:04:55 PM »
Basically, can a setup such as I described give a final exit speed greater than what it takes to break through the first sticky point? Yes or no and why?

No, that is not possible just that simple.
We can speak about a sticky point only if we play with minimum of two magnets, and there is some motion between them. Otherwise it's redundant to mention sticky point.

Consider sticky points thevorlon, not just one. If you deal with more magnets you can have more sticky points. Let's see the spiral track you mentioned. The first stator magnet is the closest to the rotor and every next stator is a bit farther in diameter.

We have a very agressive sticky point at the begining of the track at the closest stator magnet, because this is the magnet which repells the rotor magnet with the greatest force. And you need to enter the rotor there. So you push with your hand, and after you push through the back force the rotor begin to spin instantly, and finally stops close where started, because the closest magnet. But what happend?

You must think about pairs of magnets. One is the rotor magnet and the other is the actual stator where the rotor are at the moment. For example the second magnet in the spiral track can give the second greatest force to the rotor and always put the second strongest sticky spot in front of itself. So, here we are...

The first magnet push the rotor with the greatest force against the second magnet which has the second greatest force inside the track in relation to the rotor. So, the first magnet win, and the rotor begin to move in the direction of least resistance. The first beat the second, the second beat the third, the third beat the fourth, etc. It's just this simple.

The rotor accelerate when the track have the correct distances for its components, but not too much. For example in a rough design the rotor just keep its speed rate and don't accelerating too much.
But the thing always stop at the first magnet, at the strongest sticky point. Flywheels and inertia don't help you.

And now bear in mind that magnetic force is exponential in the function of distance. It can be a bit dissapointing... ;)

Overcoming the sticky point? Many tried and failed. I also tried and failed so far. However had a few partly success. I designed a motor which had more (the same) strong sticky points, lets say six for example. In this case I've gone through five sticky points but the last always stopped my rotor. However I didn't use bearings, and my prototype was not precise enough. I found that an 1/10 mm can be a big distance when you work with magnets.

My viewpoint is to don't try to solve the problem with strenght, try to solve it with mind. Move the sticky points all the time, by moving each magnet in some manner all the time. Let the magnets fool themselves and begin to dance. How it's possible? I don't know for sure at the moment, but looking for the right solution.

All the bests, :)
Greg

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2006, 08:04:55 PM »
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Offline Gregory

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2006, 08:10:55 PM »
As I can rememeber correctly Steorn also said that the travelling through the field can be complex. But complex doesn't mean over complicated.

Offline thevorlon

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2006, 03:52:14 AM »
Greg and Gregory,

So are you saying that in my concept the rotor magnet would be accelerating or not? You see, I need to know if the rotor magnet gains a little extra energy from each stator magnet or not.

Basically, is there a way to measure the ammount of force required to break through the first sticky point and the ammount of force the rotor has exiting the last stator magnet?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2006, 03:52:14 AM »
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Offline Gregory

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Re: Question about magnetic acceleration and sticky points.
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 05:29:39 PM »
Sure, It will accelerate a bit through the track, but not as much as needed to break through the repulsive force of the first magnet.

The acceleration is basically depending on simple dimensions and distances.
1. Make the rotor with the magnet.
2. With a stator magnet in your hand, measure what is the farthest distance which is enough to move the rotor with a relative good force. After you can set this distance for the distance between the last magnet of the spiral track and the rotor.
3. Choose a closest distance after some testing.
4. And finally based on the diameter and the number of magnets used, you can calculate the step differences between the magnets through the spiral track.

When you use closer distances the rotor can accelerate with greater force, but also there is a greater sticky point at the entering.
When you use farther distances the rotor will accelerate with lower force, against a lower sticky point.

But the result is the same: In a simple spiral track you cannot gain enough force to break through the sticky point. The force you gain through the track, and the force of the sticky point is usually connected. You cannot separate them with such a simple way.

If you build this setup, which is a good experiment I think, finally you will understand that it's simply a physical-mathematical relation, that you cannot draw a spiral which will be able to reset your rotor's movement.

If you use a shielding material... Shields usually give you what they take from. I mean, because they attract the magnets they take & hold some flux, so your magnets become weaker. If you use bigger shield they take more amount of flux and your magnets become more weaker. They normally make the movements smoother which sometimes looks very impressive, but usually just an illusion. So, this is usually the same story...

After all, if you want to achieve something, you must keep these things in mind.
I don't say it's impossible to make an operational motor, I don't say that shields are useless, but i say that first we need to think with a discerning mind. The possibility is there and waiting for the right person. First we must experience, understand, and accept the rules of the magnets for ourselves through our own experiments. We can begin to play a better game only after this procedure. Perform as much experiment as you can, and they will improve your knowledge and understandings.

About measurements...
You can measure things with correct measurement tools and equipment. I don't know these things very well...
Or you can make rough measurements if you can figure out a simple method for it.

Best wishes, :)
Greg

 

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