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Author Topic: MH's ideal coil and voltage question  (Read 477843 times)

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #630 on: May 23, 2016, 04:06:01 PM »
Since most of the technical discussion has already occurred, and other sims posted, here is my voltage and current trace in its complete form. R=1m Ohm.

Hopefully Brad will continue on the quest to discover the facts about this circuit, and perhaps use my proposed timing with his welding coil to prove it out on the bench. I would suggest that proving the entire wave form is not even necessary, as the main point hindering the understanding I believe has to do with the transition from a positive current to a negative source voltage. I am sure Brad could set up this single voltage transition on his bench without the need for an elaborate wave form.

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Hopefully Brad will continue on the quest to discover the facts about this circuit,

Here are the facts about this circuit.

fact 1-i do not have an ideal coil
fact 2-i do not have an ideal voltage source.

fact 3-I tried a test using my 1H inductor,where i placed 12 vDC across it for 300ms,and then reversed the polarity of that 12 volts across the coil with no off time in between. This was done by way of 2x 100 amp solid state relays,and they were triggered by way of my FG.
There was no sign of any high current spike shown on the scope,and the current trace(over the .2ohm 60 watt CVR) shows a smooth transition as seen on the presented scope shots on this thread.



Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #631 on: May 23, 2016, 04:28:59 PM »
Were you able to draw any conclusions from your test results?

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #632 on: May 23, 2016, 04:40:30 PM »
Were you able to draw any conclusions from your test results?

Was that not clear in my previous post?

As i stated--no high current spike was observed as i thought may have been seen-only a very thin(as in time frame) high voltage spike could be seen across the coil,but i expect that to be due to the switching period between relays,where there is a very slight off time for both of them during the polarity changeover.


Brad



MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #633 on: May 23, 2016, 04:47:51 PM »
What you failed to achieve Brad was this:

1.  Brad gets up the learning curve and understands the original question and then answers it correctly all by himself and clearly demonstrates that he understands what he is doing.
2.  Brad admits that he was wrong when he stated that my response to the harder question was wrong.

So one more time, you are hightailing it away now that you see that "your way" was completely wrong.

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #634 on: May 23, 2016, 05:07:54 PM »
What you failed to achieve Brad was this:

1.  Brad gets up the learning curve and understands the original question and then answers it correctly all by himself and clearly demonstrates that he understands what he is doing.
2.  Brad admits that he was wrong when he stated that my response to the harder question was wrong.

So one more time, you are hightailing it away now that you see that "your way" was completely wrong.


You are no saint pal,and that much has been proven many times now.


1--MH learns what resonance means
2--MH learns how ICEs function
3--MH learns what a J/FET is.
4--MH learns that he is not perfect.
5--MH understands what good could be had by using a VR on a JT

So how about you take a long walk off a short plank MH,and on your way down,take a good hard look at how !good! you really are.
When you come back with results of a test using an !ideal! voltage source,and an !ideal! inductor,just remember that your answer is just that--a theory-a best guess based around !non ideal! equipment and components.

I had no problem at all answering your question,using non ideal generic equations.
But you will have all sorts of trouble putting together the actual circuit in your question,and backing up your !generic! answer--thats a fact.

1-Brad will bow to no mans Theories.
2-Brad will most certainly not be taking MHs word for anything.


Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #635 on: May 23, 2016, 05:27:15 PM »
Webby1,

I would encourage you to do some reading on Faraday Induction, or watch Lewin's lecture on YT.

That is after all what it seems you are asking about.

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #636 on: May 23, 2016, 05:37:21 PM »

You are no saint pal,and that much has been proven many times now.


1--MH learns what resonance means
2--MH learns how ICEs function
3--MH learns what a J/FET is.
4--MH learns that he is not perfect.
5--MH understands what good could be had by using a VR on a JT

So how about you take a long walk off a short plank MH,and on your way down,take a good hard look at how !good! you really are.
When you come back with results of a test using an !ideal! voltage source,and an !ideal! inductor,just remember that your answer is just that--a theory-a best guess based around !non ideal! equipment and components.

I had no problem at all answering your question,using non ideal generic equations.
But you will have all sorts of trouble putting together the actual circuit in your question,and backing up your !generic! answer--thats a fact.

1-Brad will bow to no mans Theories.
2-Brad will most certainly not be taking MHs word for anything.

Brad

The truth Brad is you're so weak that you wouldn't even have reported your latest test results and if Poynt didn't ask you would never have said anything at all.

1.  You need to learn what resonance means because you are just BSing and you failed to answer the two wine glass questions.  Your claim that a wine glass resonating after it has been struck is not actually resonating is a joke.
2.  The good old ICE again.  Would you like to see some selective quotes of yours from the first 10 pages of this thread?
3.  Kiss my ass with the stupid JFET nonsense.  Where is your circuit that uses a JFET to start up your Joule Thief oscillations at low voltages?  Oh, you don't have one, do you?
4. I am not perfect and I have no problem with that.  You are not perfect and this thread was a showcase for your serious imperfections that stunt your ability to learn.
5. The variable resistor for the Joule Thief was another insane argument put forth by you where you outright refused to try to understand what I was trying to tell you.  Just like in this thread you outright refused to learn and understand until you caved in an the end.  It didn't have to be like this at all and you have some serious problems to work on.

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I had no problem at all answering your question,using non ideal generic equations.

Oops, you never answered it using non-ideal generic equations even though the offer for you to answer it that way was was made to you several times.  Of course you had "no problem at all."  Anything can be true when your brain is frying in a hot skillet.

The big question beyond the technical question that you failed to answer is this:  Have you learned anything about yourself and where you could make improvements and corrective actions?

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #637 on: May 23, 2016, 06:00:24 PM »
Im not sure if you read everything i write or post,but you seem to keep missing the fact that i do not agree with the results of your formula,and believe the values are wrong.

I told you right from the start,that using your generic formula would be an easy way out,but the results would not be that that your formula would show.

Brad

Well you are flat-out WRONG, and the results of the formula are 100% correct.

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I told you right from the start,that using your generic formula would be an easy way out

Yes, we are going to talk about the integral form of the formula for an inductor and the double-standard you showed with your jackass behaviour.

I posted the formula for an inductor and the image is attached to this posting.

That is a generic formula that anybody that is familiar with an inductor will recognize right away and you can find it in 1000 textbooks.  The formula has nothing to do with me at all.

And what did you do?

You went nuts and made a complete ass of yourself over multiple postings.   You said stuff like this:

You are the epic failure others claim you to be.
You are a total disaster.
Your (sic) a fraud.
You epic failure.
You are now the laughing stock of this forum.

If Poynt or Verpies or someone else had posted that standard formula would you have reacted like that?  The answer is no, you would not have done that.

It shows a double-standard and how you shamelessly compromised your behaviour and made a fool of yourself.

I have no problem with debating, but double-standards like that are unacceptable.

And as far as this thread goes you can eat your own words.  You are the epic failure that could not make progress and get up the learning curve and answer this simple question that consists of a power source and one single component.  You are the laughing stock of the forum, just go read the first 10 pages of this thread and look at what you are saying.

I really doubt that I will debate much with you in the future, but if we do, do not try to pull off another idiotic stunt like you tried to pull off when I posted a standard formula used in electronics all the time.  Pull yourself together and act like a responsible adult.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 08:06:47 PM by MileHigh »

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #638 on: May 23, 2016, 07:46:47 PM »
Poynt99,

Let me explain a little further.

My assumption is that at t=3 and V=0 then all differentials are also 0 meaning that there is no current flow and no voltage and all the energy is stored within the flux field as a pure pressure.

I am trying to prove my assumption wrong.
In my opinion, your first assumption should be that the equation, the books and the simulation are all correct. If you feel they are not correct, you need to come up with a theory that proves them wrong.

Therefore, the assumption is that at t=3 the voltage goes to zero, but the current remains at +2.4A.

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #639 on: May 23, 2016, 08:51:24 PM »
At t=3 and I=2.4 because of L=5 then the 2.4 represents the flux potential equivalency.
Namely the flux (Φ) equals 12 Webers, because Φ=L*I

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #640 on: May 23, 2016, 09:16:02 PM »
Well, then you can't talk like a sexist pig in Engineeringese:

B4∝qru/18qtπ?

No secret decoder rings are available.

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #641 on: May 23, 2016, 10:37:02 PM »
So that 12 Webers then could be placed on any identical inductor and when "released" return the stored energy.
Almost, but it would depend how many Amperes were responsible for creating that flux, because Joule=Weber*Ampere.
E=½LI2 still holds.

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #642 on: May 24, 2016, 01:17:09 AM »
Well you are flat-out WRONG, and the results of the formula are 100% correct.

Yes, we are going to talk about the integral form of the formula for an inductor and the double-standard you showed with your jackass behaviour.

I posted the formula for an inductor and the image is attached to this posting.

That is a generic formula that anybody that is familiar with an inductor will recognize right away and you can find it in 1000 textbooks.  The formula has nothing to do with me at all.

And what did you do?

You went nuts and made a complete ass of yourself over multiple postings.   You said stuff like this:

You are the epic failure others claim you to be.
You are a total disaster.
Your (sic) a fraud.
You epic failure.
You are now the laughing stock of this forum.





I have no problem with debating, but double-standards like that are unacceptable.





MileHigh

Oh come now MH. We only need look at some of your idiotic idea's to see that you are not one to follow or listen to.
E.G-- an ideal voltage source dose not contain energy
Energy just disappears<--that one's a doozy :D

Just a couple in this thread alone that i can recall,but the JT thread--well,that one is loaded with your mistakes. You  are free of course to put your actual circuit together,and confirm your theoretical answer ;)

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If Poynt or Verpies or someone else had posted that standard formula would you have reacted like that?  The answer is no, you would not have done that.It shows a double-standard and how you shamelessly compromised your behaviour and made a fool of yourself.

I noticed that you did not go off at Poynt like a half cocked chicken when he also answered your question incorrectly. You will also notice that Poynt made a public post here on this thread telling me to calm it down a bit,and yet he graced you with a personal!private! message to tell you to do the same-->how's them double standards looking now?.

So here is how it is cupcake.
I will not be a part of MHs lobotomy class,nor will i accept theory as fact.

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I really doubt that I will debate much with you in the future, but if we do, do not try to pull off another idiotic stunt like you tried to pull off when I posted a standard formula used in electronics all the time.  Pull yourself together and act like a responsible adult.

You seem to suffer from memory loss as well MH ::)

Quote
And as far as this thread goes you can eat your own words.  You are the epic failure that could not make progress and get up the learning curve and answer this simple question that consists of a power source and one single component.  You are the laughing stock of the forum, just go read the first 10 pages of this thread and look at what you are saying.

An ideal voltage source contains no energy
The energy just disappears.

Im sure some will have a good chuckle at those two statements,and because of them,i doubt very much you could make an accurate power calculation of how much energy your circuit will need for a continual run of the cycles you set.

I also doubt that you would have answered your question correctly,as you would have missed the bit about the current continuing to flow during the 0 volt phase of your question--but i guess we will never know,as you avoided answering your own question at all costs.
Perhaps i should have got you to email Poynt your answer before the thread got under way,and then he could have posted your answer here,after i posted the generic one. Hindsight is a wonderful thing,but it never seems to help much :(.



Brad

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #643 on: May 24, 2016, 02:07:52 AM »
I need to look over that post on the pulse motor on time :)
You can find it here.  The break-even point when the energy dissipated in the resistance = energy stored in the magnetic flux, is 1.15 Tau.
You may also find another post of mine interesting, which is 3 post after the one linked above.

If the assumption I have made about the 0 constraints leaving the energy stored in the flux is reasonable then I need to find the mechanism that holds the flux when V=0
Indeed, an ideal inductor (shorted) will maintain the level of magnetic flux penetrating it ...no matter what happens.
You can see it in this animation.

I call this mechanism the quantitative Lenz law.
This is to differentiate it from the qualitative Lenz law that only states the direction of the induced current and nothing about its magnitude.

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #644 on: May 24, 2016, 02:10:11 AM »
Brad:

No surprise, you would not account for your double-standard and your outrageous behaviour.

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E.G-- an ideal voltage source dose not contain energy
Energy just disappears<--that one's a doozy

One more time, you are not playing the thread, the thread is playing you.  All that you are doing is showing that you are incapable of understanding the secondary issues related to an ideal voltage source.  Your imagination is not capable of going there and fully understanding this abstraction, it's beyond your powers of conception.  Even though I made several attempts to explain this to you, it didn't register, it was like talking to a blank wall.  I can assure you that many people feel dismay in seeing this limitation that you have.  The only thing you can do is comical, and pretend that it is wrong.  You are exposing your severe limitations.

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Just a couple in this thread alone that i can recall,but the JT thread--well,that one is loaded with your mistakes. You  are free of course to put your actual circuit together,and confirm your theoretical answer

I made mistakes in the JT thread, but you easily made 10X the number of mistakes.  I just didn't parade them around the block 40 times like you did.  I could spin circles around you on a bench.

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I noticed that you did not go off at Poynt like a half cocked chicken when he also answered your question incorrectly.

I did not go after Poynt because I knew that he just temporarily tripped up.  I knew that he knew the true answer just like he knew that I knew the true answer.  There was no double-standard.

If you say that I suffer from memory loss, then you suffer way more memory loss.  What about all of those technical points that just pass right through you like you aren't even there?  Did you forget my multiple attempts to explain the secondary issues related to an ideal voltage source to you?

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An ideal voltage source contains no energy
The energy just disappears.

Yes, and it's a shame that your brain is so stuck and so limited.  Unfortunately, there is nothing to laugh about there.

Quote
I also doubt that you would have answered your question correctly,as you would have missed the bit about the current continuing to flow during the 0 volt phase of your question--but i guess we will never know,as you avoided answering your own question at all costs.

The above is just shameless bluffing in an attempt to save face but all that "bluffing" does is make you look even worse.

MileHigh