Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: Magluvin on March 26, 2016, 01:01:12 AM

Title: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 26, 2016, 01:01:12 AM
Im making a vid tonight of some simple mechanical resonance. Will be up in a little while. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 26, 2016, 04:47:56 AM
Here is a vid of a simple device I made to begin exploring resonance, of the mechanical kind.

I want to find out if there are any advantages to including resonance in mechanical and electronic designs. The mechanical seems like a good place to start, and as we have gone over in other threads, the mechanical functions can be translated into electronic functions.

Ok. gotta git.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 26, 2016, 05:03:02 AM
One more thing before I shut down and forget.

In the vid showing the magnet causing lenz in the stainless plate and making it vibrate, Im wondering about the reason for lower speed of the drill to get the plate to vibrate. I think I got it....

With the mags on the plate, the mass is more and we should expect a lower freq of resonance than with no mags at all. So, with the mags, the drill is throwing a N then  S in 1 rotation, so push then pull in 1 rotation. But with the lenz(no mags on the plate) the plate cant discern between N and S. So the plate gets 2 cycles per rotation of the drill mag. ;) So the plate is vibrating at a higher freq with the drill going slower.  ::) ;D

Learnin.  ;D Nite

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on March 26, 2016, 10:38:05 AM
Here is a vid of a simple device I made to begin exploring resonance, of the mechanical kind.

I want to find out if there are any advantages to including resonance in mechanical and electronic designs. The mechanical seems like a good place to start, and as we have gone over in other threads, the mechanical functions can be translated into electronic functions.

Ok. gotta git.

Mags

And bingo--there you have exactly what i was saying about adding energy at the right time to get a wine glass to resonate.

Good job Mag's,and this is a great experiment,and just bought in a flood of idea's. ;)

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on March 26, 2016, 05:23:54 PM
Hey Mag's

Check this out.

Thanks for the idea ;)

How is it we can draw energy from a resonant system,while at the same time,reduce the P/in?.
The video should show all that is required to believe that resonant systems are far more efficient.

I have since made a second system--well same system,but different oscillating arm,where the frequency is higher. It seems that the higher we go in frequency,the more energy we can draw from the system,and the more we reduce the P/in.

I will keep at it for a while,and see how you go with your setup.
It is my guess that you will be able to use less power to run your motor,than it would use running on it's own--they are the results i have gained so far.

P.S--i think your on to a winner here ;)
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: ramset on March 26, 2016, 08:27:00 PM
Mechanical Resonance !

looks like quite a Bit of fun indeed.

@Mags
I heard mention of Sound resonance in a vid [very low frequency ] ..with a car interior responding in an odd way ??
can you post that ??

thanks

Chet
ps
If that is off this topic ..please feel free to remove this post !

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 26, 2016, 09:19:33 PM
Mechanical Resonance !
looks like quite a Bit of fun indeed.

@Mags
I heard mention of Sound resonance in a vid [very low frequency ] ..with a car interior responding in an odd way ??
can you post that ??

thanks
Chet
ps
If that is off this topic ..please feel free to remove this post !

Acoustic resonance is a mechanical resonance, so it can't be TOO far off topic.
You don't want resonance inside your car with a powerful stereo system.
It makes it hard to drive.  (29Khz, and again around 7.9Khz)
Oddly enough, both frequencies are ~resonant with both the cavity of your car and the cavity in your head.

nice test!
I know I posted some 124Hz or something in the video, that was mostly my brain spouting out a senseless number..

You should follow a scale, something like:
11.2
22.4
44.8
89.6
179.2
etc.

[Edit: the half-wave below 179.2 would be 134.4 - this may have been where my mind went on YT, (Blurp!)]
so this was an incorrect place to go, since the 11.2 is ALREADY the half wave...
I forgot to take into account, the mechanical restriction
the wave bounces back forming the  "standing wave".
full wave would include the negative (-) portion.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 01:54:20 AM
Hey Mag's

Check this out.

Thanks for the idea ;)

How is it we can draw energy from a resonant system,while at the same time,reduce the P/in?.
The video should show all that is required to believe that resonant systems are far more efficient.

I have since made a second system--well same system,but different oscillating arm,where the frequency is higher. It seems that the higher we go in frequency,the more energy we can draw from the system,and the more we reduce the P/in.

I will keep at it for a while,and see how you go with your setup.
It is my guess that you will be able to use less power to run your motor,than it would use running on it's own--they are the results i have gained so far.

P.S--i think your on to a winner here ;)

Nice. ;) that was my next step to use coils.  But I wanted to start off in the simplest form where the drill(after the battery and motor)provided mechanical input and the result was physical output. But Im glad you stopped in and shown that.  Ill be joining you on that. Had to put in a little sound system on a Harley. Weird box for control unit, 4 pretty nice speaker pods. But the brackets sucked. So had to make my own. Still took some refigguring to get them at the right angle and be on there good. Bah, just finished.  He is happy.

But back to topic, I think that as long as there is a mechanical item in the the device that resonates and has every thing to do with accepting the input and we can extract output from it. The mechanical portion must be the main focus of its energy storage capability at resonance compared to not in resonance. Is there an advantage there. ;)

Thanks for joining in Brad. Im sure this will be a fun ride. ;D Nice vid. Watching it again.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 03:14:10 AM
Yep. great vid and good early conclusions.  ;)   Imagine, these are simple setups. We will gradually get to next level stuff.  Its just the resonance thing has just been hitting me lately.  My first experiences with it were fouled up by having too much of the wrong things together to realize any potentials. But since Smoky started talking about it and made it sound like the right thing to go for, Ive felt very uppity and researching things on this that I hadnt seen before. It puts past experiences into perspective.

Again, thanks for making the vid of that Brad. Good show, mate! ;D

And we continue on.....

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 03:21:46 AM
Mechanical Resonance !

looks like quite a Bit of fun indeed.

@Mags
I heard mention of Sound resonance in a vid [very low frequency ] ..with a car interior responding in an odd way ??
can you post that ??

thanks

Chet
ps
If that is off this topic ..please feel free to remove this post !

He has lots of power in this truck. But you will see his dash panels falling out, center console disassembles itself. Ive been in trucks that have more. 5 seconds and you are done for the day back at the hotel in bed. Like sea sickness. Up to 183db.  180db is like standing 100ft away from a space shuttle launch. But at 20 to 25 hz, its a lot of fun. ;D

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 03:24:29 AM
Acoustic resonance is a mechanical resonance, so it can't be TOO far off topic.
You don't want resonance inside your car with a powerful stereo system.
It makes it hard to drive.  (29Khz, and again around 7.9Khz)
Oddly enough, both frequencies are ~resonant with both the cavity of your car and the cavity in your head.

nice test!
I know I posted some 124Hz or something in the video, that was mostly my brain spouting out a senseless number..

You should follow a scale, something like:
11.2
22.4
44.8
89.6
179.2
etc.

[Edit: the half-wave below 179.2 would be 134.4 - this may have been where my mind went on YT, (Blurp!)]
so this was an incorrect place to go, since the 11.2 is ALREADY the half wave...
I forgot to take into account, the mechanical restriction
the wave bounces back forming the  "standing wave".
full wave would include the negative (-) portion.

Been thinking about making a shorter plate and would have to make a strong holder for the magnets because of the back and forth speeds at higher freq. Im sure we will get into it.   ;)

Any help here is very welcome. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: MagnaProp on March 27, 2016, 03:54:31 AM
...Check this out...
Nicely done.

I'm curious what happens when you move the driving electromagnet up or down the length of the resonance rod?
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on March 27, 2016, 04:27:05 AM
I have switched to a spring steel oscillating strip,and this has raised the frequency to around 33Hz.
I can now draw more energy from the system,and at the same time,the system consume's even less power than the first one that operated at a lower frequency. With this small rise in frequency,the P/in without the oscillating strip in play,is the same as the first test seen in the video.

My first thought was that the oscillating magnet was lowering the impedance of the coil,but in order for that to happen,the PM field amplitude would have to rise before the electromagnetic field produced by the coil--the PMs field leads the electromagnetic field,and this cant happen,as it is the electromagnetic pulses that are acting on the PMs field in order to create oscillation.

This is pretty much the same results i seen with the pulsing coil tests i did,with and without the rotor with PMs embedded in it,that rotated in sync with the pulsing coil.

there is something else going on here,and we need to find out what it is.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 04:32:23 AM

Just a curious thing.  When we have say 1 subwoofer and it plays at 100db at 100w, and if we add another sub at 100w we get 106db. Now, it takes a doubling of power to make the single sub get to 103db. So from what I know, we can run 2 subs at 50w each, same total power of the single sub example and we will have 103db. Do you see the advantage???

So, if you happen to have another drive coil just like the one you had shown in the vid and put it on the other side of the mast, then put it in series with the other coil for a push pull config, at the same total power input (will have to make voltage adjustments to get the same total power), you should get more movement of the mast for less input.

Would be interesting to see. ;)   Lol, if you put 25w each to 4 subs, you get 106db.  12.5w to each of 8 subs, 109db.

So now, if it works with 2 coils in series and the pendulum moves more, then I suppose we can count on even more savings from the pendulum movement. ;) ;)

Hope I got that right. Have to go. didnt eat today yet. :'( ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 05:31:37 AM

Just a curious thing.  When we have say 1 subwoofer and it plays at 100db at 100w, and if we add another sub at 100w we get 106db. Now, it takes a doubling of power to make the single sub get to 103db. So from what I know, we can run 2 subs at 50w each, same total power of the single sub example and we will have 103db. Do you see the advantage???

So, if you happen to have another drive coil just like the one you had shown in the vid and put it on the other side of the mast, then put it in series with the other coil for a push pull config, at the same total power input (will have to make voltage adjustments to get the same total power), you should get more movement of the mast for less input.

Would be interesting to see. ;)   Lol, if you put 25w each to 4 subs, you get 106db.  12.5w to each of 8 subs, 109db.

So now, if it works with 2 coils in series and the pendulum moves more, then I suppose we can count on even more savings from the pendulum movement. ;) ;)

Hope I got that right. Have to go. didnt eat today yet. :'( ;D

Mags

"you should get more movement of the mast for less input."
Here I should have written for the 'same input'.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on March 27, 2016, 05:58:16 AM

Just a curious thing.  When we have say 1 subwoofer and it plays at 100db at 100w, and if we add another sub at 100w we get 106db. Now, it takes a doubling of power to make the single sub get to 103db. So from what I know, we can run 2 subs at 50w each, same total power of the single sub example and we will have 103db. Do you see the advantage???

Would be interesting to see. ;)   Lol, if you put 25w each to 4 subs, you get 106db.  12.5w to each of 8 subs, 109db.

So now, if it works with 2 coils in series and the pendulum moves more, then I suppose we can count on even more savings from the pendulum movement. ;) ;)

Hope I got that right. Have to go. didnt eat today yet. :'( ;D

Mags

Quote
So, if you happen to have another drive coil just like the one you had shown in the vid and put it on the other side of the mast, then put it in series with the other coil for a push pull config, at the same total power input (will have to make voltage adjustments to get the same total power), you should get more movement of the mast for less input.

Mag;s
We are on the same wave length here,as i just came in from the workshop to grab a coffee,and catch up on the post here. Thing is,i am half way doing exactly what you suggest above lol.
I have just been pulling another one of those transformers(that i have boxes of)apart to get the primary coil from.

The same thing applies with magnetic field's,where if you add two fields together that are the same in strength,you end up with nearly 3 times the field strength of one of the magnet-not just twice the strength.

I am using a strip of spring steel,so i would think that i am also loosing a bit of power to eddy currents as well--but not much,as the steel strip will have a high magnetic field induced into it already by the neo PM.

I also want to place an air core coil around the PM,so as i can see what happens to the field of that PM when the electromagnet fires--there may be some answers in there.

One odd thing i have found,is when you shift the frequency of the electromagnet above the resonant frequency of the oscillating strip,the amplitude coils output shifts out of phase one way,and if i reduce the frequency of the electromagnet below that of the oscillating strips resonant frequency,the amplitude coils output shifts out of phase in the opposite direction :o .

Much more to discover,and much more fun to be had.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 06:13:25 AM

My day is free tomorrow.  If you noticed the mags at the bottom of my strip near the base, I was applying the drill input there. Almost right above the base brackets and can get the vibration to happen pretty darn good. My later plan for that it to make a short duration, high power, pulse coil to 'tap' (may even hear it ;) ) the lower magnets. Like Tesla did with the tapper box on the building.  Now what smoky was talking about that I just realized now is to up the freq and get the strip to say have a bend in the strip at 2 times the freq, possibly the top is near as still as the base, and up the freq again and have 2 bends in the vibration if the strip.  More neat stuff to do.

Like you said, I can see a lot of things to work with and do here.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 27, 2016, 06:27:15 AM

One odd thing i have found,is when you shift the frequency of the electromagnet above the resonant frequency of the oscillating strip,the amplitude coils output shifts out of phase one way,and if i reduce the frequency of the electromagnet below that of the oscillating strips resonant frequency,the amplitude coils output shifts out of phase in the opposite direction :o .

When i was getting the battery to oscillate on the JT circuit, at times it was hard to lock in to the batts peak freq and as I slowly adjusted the resonance would grow then jump to another phase and lower level, and the same back in the other direction.  Havnt gotten to finding out why it happens in one config of parts values and not another. But possibly similar to whats happening for you. ;) Obviously your mast shifts out of phase on each side, as I doubt that your pickup coil just so happens to be reacting at those freq.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 27, 2016, 10:00:57 AM
to avoid any confusion with what I was talking about...
I have drawn an image.
pardon my crude artistic abilities.
the red arc represents the path of travel (standing wave)
of the rod.
the green line is the "other half" of the wave, the mechanics of which do not really apply to this set-up.

the result of this, the mathematics we use here, are half-wave mechanics.
the "wave-length" represented by the distance traveled, and the associated 'arc' of travel
establish a mechanical 'wave', which propagates at the velocity of the rod.
This is half of the total wavelength of the standing wave being created.

like sending a pulse down a rope tied to a post.
the pulse hits the fixed end, and the resulting wave travels back in phase
the result with the rope, is constructive interference, and an increase in amplitude.

Here, amplitude is fixed, and the result is an increase in 'torque', and to some degree, velocity.

the other thing to consider, is the length of the rod.
its kind of like a pendulum + a spring.
it will assume a certain vibration.
examine a single-pulse and let it oscillate.

in part because of the location of the drive-magnet/coil input
and in part because of a constant resultant between the 'springyness' of the base,
the type of metal (density), and its' length.

when the drive coil freq. approaches a frequency the rod likes to oscillate at,
it will take less power, and greater torque and "distance" will be achieved.

on the return stroke, once the rod is oscillating,
in resonance, it has the maximum swing length.
the rod can approach during the time the coil is charging.
this sort of "loads" the coil,
giving it a harder kick
very little changes happen to the magnet itself,
but the magnet is "deeper" into the field when the coil kicks.
if that makes any sense...
There is also some degree of 'reverse' induction, as the drive magnet approaches the coil.

anyways, here is my stupid picture..

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: ARMCORTEX on March 28, 2016, 03:26:23 AM
The ever so mysterious flywheel engine, here is perhaps a more revealing video then the others out there, where somebody from a foreign country demonstrates what seems to be Free energy.

And what do you think of this concept? Would this create overunity?  I design this, I do not think it will work, but there may remain... A bigger secret, the pulse of Lawrence Tseung^, is it true?

There good old explanation, I have also the vague rememberance of reading some theory about a nasa shuttle, where they would, "break the shuttle", at the right moment, pardon my ignorance I dont remember nor did I fully understand the significance of that article.

http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/Flywheel.htm

If you wish to make a motor with mechanical resonance, I believe it is pointless and impossible, I am sure, it was tried too much.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 28, 2016, 04:31:14 AM
The ever so mysterious flywheel engine, here is perhaps a more revealing video then the others out there, where somebody from a foreign country demonstrates what seems to be Free energy.

And what do you think of this concept? Would this create overunity?  I design this, I do not think it will work, but there may remain... A bigger secret, the pulse of Lawrence Tseung^, is it true?

There good old explanation, I have also the vague rememberance of reading some theory about a nasa shuttle, where they would, "break the shuttle", at the right moment, pardon my ignorance I dont remember nor did I fully understand the significance of that article.

http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/Flywheel.htm (http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/Flywheel.htm)

If you wish to make a motor with mechanical resonance, I believe it is pointless and impossible, I am sure, it was tried too much.

Was thinking in the beginning of all this that a flywheel may be considered the same thing as a vibration device, but the flywheeel has one thing missing. Resonance. ;)

The flywheel doesnt have any specific range or area in the rpm band width that reacts like what we are talking about here.

"If you wish to make a motor with mechanical resonance, I believe it is pointless and impossible, I am sure, it was tried too much."

This thread is moderated. There will be no long winded page after page debate here.  If you want to debate and or post negative 'opinions' that there is nothing more to learn or gain here, then I suggest you make or find another thread to do that. This thread is for showing resonance projects.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: ARMCORTEX on March 28, 2016, 07:03:03 PM
Flywheel has resonance.

Ask L Tseung to explain his theory about how a unbalanced flywheel has a resonance.

Many people, including scientists, agree with his theory.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 28, 2016, 11:55:59 PM
Flywheel has resonance.

Ask L Tseung to explain his theory about how a unbalanced flywheel has a resonance.

Many people, including scientists, agree with his theory.

The only way an imbalanced flywheel could have resonance is if it were say put on the pendulum. And still, the imbalanced fly wheel would only be the driver of what ever it is mounted on, as it wont be the flywheel itself that has resonance. Otherwise almost no matter what speed you spin it, it will vibrate what ever its axle is mounted to. I cant see where there would be one particular rpm that has more activity than all the other ranges of speed it is turning. If you want to build one as a project and show us, you are welcome to do so. Not looking for simulations. Only real world projects.

Brad and I have asked Stefan if we could be moderators for this board. Not trying to stifle the right of speech. We are just tired of detractors and nay sayers filling up pages and pages of threads where we are trying to work on things. Look at 'Joule Thief 101' thread. Pages and pages of nonsensical arguments that NEVER seem to end. It is very hard to go back to find and reference pages of substance through all that mess.  I hope you and all can understand. ;D

This will be my last warning post. All further posts of opinionated negativity or distracting garbage will be removed without notice. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 29, 2016, 12:13:28 AM
What if the "system" is a conglomerate?

No one piece is in resonance but the system as a whole has a period, or cycle,, where things behave in a harmonious fashion and the input leads to a gain in the amplitude of the cycle,, and only one frequency of the system will give rise to this condition.

What if in a mechanical system the system cycle has two rates of motion,, going one way it has one and going the other it has a slightly different rate,, but the system is locked in synchronous motion,, again from a conglomerate and again having only 1 frequency,, so to say.

Absolutely. If all the working parts, or say most of the working parts are all in tune, then I might think it would be a positive thing. Like in a jt circuit, I have gotten the battery to resonate around 1.5mhz with a few disk caps in parallel. If the battery, coils and say ferrite cores were all in tune, I think it could be a winner in the efficiency scales.

But here, in the beginning, Im choosing to work with simple things first. Study 1 item in resonance. How to get it to resonate. How to extract energy from that with least opposition to the resonance cycle amplitude as to not kill it off. And then we will get more complicated, having lots of things resonating at once and such as I imagine it.

So lets all learn from it and see what we can find.  Brad has already shown that the input to his driver coil has lower input with the resonance of his pendulum than without. Id say that is a good thing so far, and we just started this days ago.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: ARMCORTEX on March 29, 2016, 02:18:58 AM
Ltseung says it has a resonance, when it turns in the same direction for many turns, not in a pendulum.

Ask him to explain it, I know it sounds weird but thats the theory.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 29, 2016, 02:23:47 AM
Ok. will look into it.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 29, 2016, 05:09:50 AM
I followed brads way of making a back wall to mount coils and such. He is a smart guy. ;D

Figuring some coils to go with it.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 29, 2016, 07:53:40 AM
I have not had a chance to play with it yet, but the math indicates, that a conical coil
would have the most intense magnetic field, for the power.

There is a certain angle of inclination, and ratio of # of turns per distance, as the cone narrows, that is best.
But in general, the magnetic field condenses itself near the 'tip'.

just a thought....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two cents (I think mine are only worth 1.5c now, due to inflation...)

1) a flywheel (can) have resonance occurring, when it is properly imbalanced.
as a function of the radius, and the location on the wheel the imbalance is.
at certain RPM, the flywheel will incur feedback, resulting in a vibration of the entire wheel/shaft,
and probably whatever is driving it. Not really a desirable condition....

2) Tsueng is absolutely insane. I have seen nothing "lead-In" or "out" in any of his theories,...
which, by the way, he will attempt to apply to everything. Most are not his inventions, or ideas.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 29, 2016, 11:53:06 PM
I have not had a chance to play with it yet, but the math indicates, that a conical coil
would have the most intense magnetic field, for the power.

There is a certain angle of inclination, and ratio of # of turns per distance, as the cone narrows, that is best.
But in general, the magnetic field condenses itself near the 'tip'.

just a thought....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two cents (I think mine are only worth 1.5c now, due to inflation...)

1) a flywheel (can) have resonance occurring, when it is properly imbalanced.
as a function of the radius, and the location on the wheel the imbalance is.
at certain RPM, the flywheel will incur feedback, resulting in a vibration of the entire wheel/shaft,
and probably whatever is driving it. Not really a desirable condition....

2) Tsueng is absolutely insane. I have seen nothing "lead-In" or "out" in any of his theories,...
which, by the way, he will attempt to apply to everything. Most are not his inventions, or ideas.

Hey Smoky

Do you mean a coil shaped like a wine glass? Bell without the lip? Also, open side toward the magnets?

On the flywheel deal. As I said earlier, I believe it would be the total of the framework weight and base, if not solidly mounted to say concrete slab and such, that would be part of the whole resonance detail.  But I dont think an isolated offset flywheel would have resonance on its own.... Lots of vibration at nearly any rpm. And like you said, would all be detrimental to the bearings and the lot like an old unbalanced fan. Wont last near as long as a balanced one. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2016, 01:00:57 AM
Here is a vid of a simple device I made to begin exploring resonance, of the mechanical kind.

I want to find out if there are any advantages to including resonance in mechanical and electronic designs. The mechanical seems like a good place to start, and as we have gone over in other threads, the mechanical functions can be translated into electronic functions.

Ok. gotta git.

Mags

Hey Mags,

just noticed this topic!... great demo and idea to start experimenting with mechanical resonance.

I may play around also as vibration is one of my interests which I've not yet taken the time to experiment with.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 30, 2016, 01:15:54 AM
Hey Mags,

just noticed this topic!... great demo and idea to start experimenting with mechanical resonance.

I may play around also as vibration is one of my interests which I've not yet taken the time to experiment with.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Hey Luc

Your very welcome to join in. You come up with a lot of good ideas. ;)

The vid was meant to be very simplified so that anyone could understand my recent idea on resonance. It doesnt seem that we use it much. ??? ;) Except in radio, where the receivers are 'designed' to pull in a minimalist amount so that it can be amplified into something substantial.

I think the ideology of the fact that the pendulum being affected by input that is out of the resonant(even lower multiples) range(Ill call it the dead zone from here on in) is very similar to operating a transformer in the dead zone, and calling it under unity and basing the efficiency scale on that. :o ;)

Anyway, Im working on some coils to work with here like Brad has done and see what might come of it.

Mags

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2016, 01:19:58 AM
Hey Mag's

Check this out.

Thanks for the idea ;)

How is it we can draw energy from a resonant system,while at the same time,reduce the P/in?.
The video should show all that is required to believe that resonant systems are far more efficient.

I have since made a second system--well same system,but different oscillating arm,where the frequency is higher. It seems that the higher we go in frequency,the more energy we can draw from the system,and the more we reduce the P/in.

I will keep at it for a while,and see how you go with your setup.
It is my guess that you will be able to use less power to run your motor,than it would use running on it's own--they are the results i have gained so far.

P.S--i think your on to a winner here ;)

Great mod of the concept Brad

Reminds me of another topic ;) ... has he showed up yet?

Luc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 30, 2016, 02:45:09 AM
Thought of doing this....

I do a lot of car audio stuff. I have some stock speakers around so I took one apart for its coil and former. Its 4 ohm so I can run an amplifier on it with a sig gen.

So I extracted the coil and cleaned up most of the glued parts. Some of the glues they use are stupid strong. >:( So there will be a bit of that left. ;D

So I just connected a AAA bat to the coil and held it by the mags as seen in the pic and there was surprising pull while tapping the lead on the battery.

So it gave me the idea for some odd reason to try to make the thing control its own freq.  Working on the scheme. Will most likely need a hand start to get the pendulum to reach the reed switch and then it should go on its own.  There are obstacles. like dose the reed trigger a push or pull when activated.  So I thought further and having a pull will work if it is only a pulse. But it needs to not have continuous hold on the pen and also not another pulse on the way back from full extension.

So im thinking of the Tesla igniter patent circuit.  It has a battery, a capacitor and a large inductor all in series, with the addition of a diode here in series. Then you have a low inductance drive coil that is connected across the cap when the reed switch closes. This will allow a pulse to be sent to the drive coil, and while the reed switch is still on, the large inductor charges up. Then when the reed releases, the cap gets charged up. Very simplified solution to the switching problem. ;) Will have to experiment with cap values and large inductor.  Be neat to see the thing swing with maybe a AAA bat.

Going to make coil brackets after I pull apart the other speaker for it coil.  Going to make some standoffs for the mags so the stainless strip is less involved in consuming drive fields.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: mariuscivic on March 30, 2016, 11:18:54 PM
Hi guys!
Spent some time with this ideea. All I remember is that when tried to extract something from resonance, it stoped resonating. Keeping the resonance while extracting something tooked a lot more energy than the one produced.
This is the setup used      www.youtube.com/watch?v=H55vrAfmMNQ
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 31, 2016, 12:01:34 AM
Hi guys!
Spent some time with this ideea. All I remember is that when tried to extract something from resonance, it stoped resonating. Keeping the resonance while extracting something tooked a lot more energy than the one produced.

Hey Marius

Try to use steel strips like I did, or if you can get spring steel, both are better than the plexi.  I have to admit that Milehigh taught me ;) that one as I had used pexi first and the oscillations stopped sooner.  Hysteresis loss I believe the term he used.

Next is to look at my full vid in the second post. You dont seem to be operating the wheel to a speed that hits the freq of resonance of your arms with the magnets.  If you notice that when you spin the wheel slowly, there is a certain amount of movement, then spin a little faster it is nearly the same amount of movement. But when you hit the resonant freq of the arms, of which they will need tuning to be at the same freq, the arms will possibly reach out so far and hit your wheel magnets. So you may have to space the arms out some once you get there.

But I think its possibly in need of higher freq(wheel speed) to get the arms on your setup to be in resonance.  If when you speed up the wheel beyond what you have shown and there is less movement of the arms, and even higher speeds even less, then maybe you are hitting resonance in the vid.  Those are large mags and you just may be finding resonance there due to more mass weight, lower freq.  Not sure.

Thanks for showing that. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 31, 2016, 01:21:31 AM
Hi guys!
Spent some time with this ideea. All I remember is that when tried to extract something from resonance, it stoped resonating. Keeping the resonance while extracting something tooked a lot more energy than the one produced.

Also it is best to have a very solid base attachment. lots of loss there if not solid as can be.

The efficiency of the generator portion is important. When we just put an open coil near a moving magnet we have a fairly low efficiency rate there, as compared to what we see in most efficient commercial motors and gens. All those losses add up to big losses. then we also have the efficiency of the driver portion.  But even with the losses of these types, we can still experiment and find better ways of going about it all before we get real detailed in making a better machine.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on March 31, 2016, 11:52:00 AM

What is this??????  :o   :o   :o

:)
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on March 31, 2016, 10:53:31 PM
While thinking at work today I thought of using a JT circuit to charge a small cap really fast and use that cap to pulse the coils. The reason I came up with it is the simple fact that we have been playing with the JTs in the other thread..

One way or the other Jt or Tesla igniter circuit,  they can both step up voltage into a cap quite well.  The Jt has an advantage of being very small and needs very little input. Maybe we can generate off the pendulum to power the jt. ;D

Workin on it.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 11, 2016, 04:13:13 PM
Well here is my latest test on the magnetic mechanical amplifier.

Just finished putting the 13 watt amplifier together as well for the larger version of this device.
It seems the higher i can go in frequency,the better the effect.
Will keep things up to date in this thread.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Johan_1955 on April 11, 2016, 06:51:56 PM
Well here is my latest test on the magnetic mechanical amplifier.
It seems the higher i can go in frequency,the better the effect.
Will keep things up to date in this thread.

Great, the dynamic: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Elec_FluxCap.html
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2016, 07:41:35 PM
Well here is my latest test on the magnetic mechanical amplifier.

Just finished putting the 13 watt amplifier together as well for the larger version of this device.
It seems the higher i can go in frequency,the better the effect.
Will keep things up to date in this thread.

It's always interesting to see such a stiff metal bar move so freely when it hits resonance.
BTW, is the frequency you're driving it happen to be the same frequency as the bars natural ringing resonance like if you hit it with the side of your screw driver?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 12, 2016, 03:41:48 AM
;)
Well here is my latest test on the magnetic mechanical amplifier.

Just finished putting the 13 watt amplifier together as well for the larger version of this device.
It seems the higher i can go in frequency,the better the effect.
Will keep things up to date in this thread.

You are the man. ;D    Thanks for continuing on here. I have some brackets to make for my coils and Ill be Wiggin and a waggin too.

After watching your vid I thought of things.  Like say if we were to just use a coil to distort the field of a stationary magnet so that the magnets field, changing because of input to the first coil, induces a second coil.  We would get about as much in the second coil as if Brad were to change his input freq so the pendulum is not in resonance.  ;) Not much efficiency there. Because the magnets field is not resonant.( or can it be???) We would be only moving its field in a lossy way.

If we look at the movement of the pendulum say at 30hz, there would be a big difference in that movement if it were not the resonant freq. So say out of resonance the pendulum moves back and forth 1/8in for example at 30hz, then we could calculate the speed of the magnet per that distance and time. Now if we have the same but at resonant freq, there is much greater distance of travel, and according to Brad, there is a savings in input when operating at resonance. ;) So at 30 hz and in resonance, the magnet reaches end to end of throw at much greater speeds, giving faster flux cutting of the second coil thus more output than without resonance. ;D ;)

Like I said earlier, I sometimes dont have time for projects. And for about a week I had a lower back prob. Hard to put your socks on pain. But feeling much better today. Double dose of raw milk yesterday. ;) ;) ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 13, 2016, 04:40:58 AM
Just wrote a decent size post and hit send and Unable To Connect comes up and lost my text.   >:( Happens a lot for me here. Then I can get back on after a few min.

Anyway, here is my coil setup. Gotta git

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 13, 2016, 04:45:11 AM
What Brad was saying about better efficiency at higher freq of resonance seems to hold true for switching power supplies also, from what Ive been reading lately. ;)
Just another chunk of knowledge for the efficiency gain basket of things to think about in our builds.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 13, 2016, 03:58:44 PM
Just wrote a decent size post and hit send and Unable To Connect comes up and lost my text.   >:( Happens a lot for me here. Then I can get back on after a few min.

Anyway, here is my coil setup. Gotta git

Mags

Hey,nice shinny setup there Mag's ;)

I too have the very same problem,where i hit send,and i get error 500-website not available. If i back click,it will return to my post i was writing,and so i just highlight my post,copy it,and then refresh page,and try again lol.

Yes-the higher the frequency,the better the efficiency. This is also the case without the oscillating magnet,but adding the oscillating magnet at any frequency would increase the efficiency again.

When you talk about using another coil to redirect the PM's field,the first thing that comes to my mind is the MEG,as that is exactly what it dose--uses a second coil to redirect the PMs field into a drive coil--or main coil.

Problem with that is,we use extra power in the deflection coil,where as the oscillating magnet is driven by the primary coil,and as we can clearly see in the video--it takes no energy to do this--apparently ???,as the P/in go's down-not up,and the P/out go's up-not down :o

Out of resonance,and the P/in and P/out go back to the same values than that as if the oscillating system was not there.

Next i am going to use a laser to find out where the magnet is in relation to the primary coils magnetic field. I want to find out what kind of interaction the PMs field is having with the primaries field. I have this feeling that some how the PMs field is leading that of the primaries field,and this is how the secondaries EMF phase is able to come back into phase with the current of the primary,and not 90* out as it should be --we will see.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 13, 2016, 11:26:26 PM
Im getting 4vpp at 10.58hz with the 2 coils in series as pickup coils at full throw resonance using the drill to motivate the pendulum. Full throw is the stainless plate hitting the kapton bobbin of the speaker coils. The drill magnet seems to have very little affect on the coils so Id say good test. Also tried shorting the coils in series while driving the pendulum with the drill.  It has some resistance against the oscillation but less than I imagined. It doesnt kill it off thats for sure. Have some stuff I gotta do and I will apply electrical input tonight. Want to try low duty cycle pulses also.

Was thinking to use the original speaker magnets and mount the coils to the pendulum, but the angle change as the pen swings, and limited travel staved me off the idea. But we do need to look at closing a magnetic path between the coils and magnets to get better generator/motor effects, rather than open as we have them.

I have some carbon fiber tubing I want to try later on to replace the stainless plate. I get a lot of breeze like a fan when in full throw resonance with the plate, so want to eliminate some of that loss.  Will probably have to use 2 pieces of carbon tube with attachments at the top to keep it going back and forth instead of possible circular wobble with just 1 rod.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 14, 2016, 01:49:38 AM

When you talk about using another coil to redirect the PM's field,the first thing that comes to my mind is the MEG,as that is exactly what it dose--uses a second coil to redirect the PMs field into a drive coil--or main coil.

Exactly. May as well just use the coils field directly without the magnet. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 14, 2016, 05:04:08 AM
Well I played with the pendulum some tonight using the coils to drive it. There are issues with having coils as I did. The larger thin disk mags go beyond the coil. So if the coil is still in pulling mode, when the mag passes tdc the input wants to restrict further movement because the coil applies attraction also after tdc. When I get it going with the drill and the moving strip is just hitting the bobbins lightly, there is a dip in the peaks, showing a current reversal since the mag is on the other side of tdc for a bit.

So ill do a vid tomorrow of things as it is and just limit the input and movement of the mag at tdc. Ill be using my android smart phone with the app Kewl Dual Channel Function Generator.  The freq adjustment goes down to 1 milli hz. Crazy. And to the 3rd decimal place. My amplifier most likely wont play that low, but works great for these low freq. Sine is clean. Anyway....

Remember how Brads device shook the whole bench?  Well mine is kinda undetectable in that sense at 10hz, but the whole device and base shake. When I hold it down tight the pendulum moves further by eliminating most of that loss.

Another thing with the coils and mags is the orientation of the mag produces weaker field at the coils than if the field were concentrated across the coils from inside the bobbin to the outside dia of the coils, like a speaker magnet assy does. So efficiency is low in that area also. If the coils were in the speaker mags, I would need way less power in to get the same results. Gotta think on that one.   The magnetic gap of the speaker mag assy is a bit shorter than the coil length. So like a speaker, Xmax, the distance in mm of total distance of coil travel with the coil still in the gap. So this may be possible with a shorter pendulum where we get higher freq and less distance of travel like Brad had shown.

But will still do a vid on this before the next mod. Still playing with things to have a short list of interesting things to show.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2016, 03:15:38 AM
Just found something that is an issue also.  The speaker are the fr and rear 6.5in mids from the front doors and rear side panels. Truns out I didnt notice that and one coil is from the rear and one coil is from the front. One coil is 8 ohm and one coil is 4 ohm.  So that why while touching the driven coils with my finger, one was warmer than the other. ::) ::) ::) . Lol.  I assumed they were all 4 ohm as it said on the back of one of the speakers. So putting them in series is bogus really.

Cutting out the 'real' 4 ohm and fitting to the coil holder now... Lol now my script is messed up. I had it where there was 8v ac input to the 2 coils in series, came out to 8w and 5.6w rms. la dee da.

Anyway..... Never seen same looking speakers in a car that were different ohms.  Crap, some put 2ohm in for more sound from a 12v simplified amp without the step up power supply.

So that what Im doing here at the moment.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2016, 05:44:34 AM
Ok, lol, OK, I see I start my videos that way. OK!

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2016, 07:11:29 AM
@armcortex

Your insulting comment has been removed.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2016, 07:31:30 AM
Thanks Brad. The guy is just a troll. Seen him just doing he same on other threads.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 15, 2016, 04:24:51 PM
Ok, lol, OK, I see I start my videos that way. OK!

Mags

Thats a whole lot of magnetic field you have swinging away there mag's.
Would love to see what kind of output you could get from some secondaries wound around those two speaker coils. I bet the difference between the oscillator being in play and not,would be huge.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: massive on April 15, 2016, 10:48:48 PM
Hi Tinman
model T coils are good to play with . the box is full of tar or pitch and needs to be heated to remove it in order to get to the capacitor for repairs , original is a paper cap.
you should be able to get one some where to play around with.
I hook mine up with the pri + sec disconnected = HV AC .
green cap across the reed on pri
the far right coil is tin can type coil , possibly Lucas cant remember , Ive done heaps of coils for HV experiments
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 15, 2016, 11:25:20 PM
Thats a whole lot of magnetic field you have swinging away there mag's.
Would love to see what kind of output you could get from some secondaries wound around those two speaker coils. I bet the difference between the oscillator being in play and not,would be huge.

Ill do that tonight.  Was thinking on a bracket to hold a magnet with pole facing the back wall, and maybe build a front wall to, plexi, and put mags and coils on both sides doing the same. This way we can have the coils pole faces dragging higher density fields across the windings for better efficiency. Maybe some core for the coils, and maybe a stack of mags from back wall to front wall to not waste the field of the mags backside if it were just 2 separate magnets.

Also making a shorter spring strip for higher freq to try.

Be back later

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 16, 2016, 06:01:11 PM
Cut down the steel oscillator strip,and managed raised the resonant  frequency to around 40Hz.
I now have increased the efficiency of the transformer by 2300% when adding the oscillating system.

Now to wind a more efficient coil.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 16, 2016, 09:08:28 PM
Been thinking about the idea in the pic below. If we put the mag or coil in the middle of the strip, they wont be following a curved travel and will be more straight up and down. Or sideways, vertical, how ever one may want it.

Winding some sec coils on the speaker coils today.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: seychelles on April 16, 2016, 09:35:43 PM
ARE WE GOING BACK TO THE FUTURE ARE WE..
FLUX CAPACITOR AND ALL.. YEEEAH.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2016, 05:29:57 AM

Got an idea...  Tuning forks.  Not expensive really
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtuning+fork.TRS0&_nkw=tuning+fork&_sacat=0

These are interesting but pricey.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-7-Energy-Bar-Chakra-Chimes-louder-sound-than-tuning-forks-7-wood-mallets-/162020874509?hash=item25b932590d:g:sQEAAOSw-zxWnecu

Thinking of ways to apply them here with the coils and mags.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: massive on April 17, 2016, 06:09:00 AM
there was a story of a kid who made a model car that ran on on tuning fork , zero info on it.

Ive got tuning fork here , A440 = 80.5mm from centre of prongs to the tips
the higher freq forks are smaller and shorter

largest mass fork in ebay list is the C128 hz

a fork held near a guitar pick up coil generates electrical freq 440 hz signal , no different from a vibrating string in front of pick up

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: gotoluc on April 17, 2016, 06:22:07 AM

Got an idea...  Tuning forks.  Not expensive really
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtuning+fork.TRS0&_nkw=tuning+fork&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtuning+fork.TRS0&_nkw=tuning+fork&_sacat=0)

These are interesting but pricey.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-7-Energy-Bar-Chakra-Chimes-louder-sound-than-tuning-forks-7-wood-mallets-/162020874509?hash=item25b932590d:g:sQEAAOSw-zxWnecu (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-7-Energy-Bar-Chakra-Chimes-louder-sound-than-tuning-forks-7-wood-mallets-/162020874509?hash=item25b932590d:g:sQEAAOSw-zxWnecu)

Mags

You're not the only one that got that idea!...  I ordered mine on the 13th and will have it on Monday: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131526761089 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/131526761089)

Unfortunately my time at the lab has ran out so it may be a while before I'm able to put the device together.

Luc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 17, 2016, 06:25:04 AM
there was a story of a kid who made a model car that ran on on tuning fork , zero info on it.

Ive got tuning fork here , A440 = 80.5mm from centre of prongs to the tips
the higher freq forks are smaller and shorter

largest mass fork in ebay list is the C128 hz

a fork held near a guitar pick up coil generates electrical freq 440 hz signal , no different from a vibrating string in front of pick up

Thinking of putting magnets on it. It will lower the freq. I wonder how your pickup would sound with the mags on it?

Just thoughts as we go along. I have a  vented subwoofer design im going to do here too.  Will be a little slow at getting things up but they will be up.

Did some tests today by putting 3/4 x 1/2 n52 disks on the pen half way up the strip and driving that with the 8ohm coil I had from the change out. Have to go over that tomorrow. Was getting more V out of the top 4ohm coil than I was driving the 8ohm with. Going to try different placements and make a lower base for the driver coils.

With only one top coil driven, the opposing coil as a pickup, the trace for the pickup is much less and distorted, like not a plump sine but a malnourished one. So it shows a pretty bad eff level. A very decent eff level should gen almost as much as drive input. So gotta work on that.

Still learning with this simple setup. There are any number of mods that can be done and adjustments therein.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: massive on April 17, 2016, 07:41:59 AM
You're not the only one that got that idea!...  I ordered mine on the 13th and will have it on Monday: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131526761089 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/131526761089)

C64 hz is even bigger , whole octave lower than 128 hz fork

64hz is pretty close to 60hz used for a motor !

interesting.......
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 17, 2016, 11:29:36 AM

Got an idea...  Tuning forks.  Not expensive really
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtuning+fork.TRS0&_nkw=tuning+fork&_sacat=0

These are interesting but pricey.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-7-Energy-Bar-Chakra-Chimes-louder-sound-than-tuning-forks-7-wood-mallets-/162020874509?hash=item25b932590d:g:sQEAAOSw-zxWnecu

Thinking of ways to apply them here with the coils and mags.

Mags

Maybe the travel will not be enough?
Maybe a magnet on a wine glass :o lol
Sorry,couldnt resist that one.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: AlienGrey on April 17, 2016, 12:49:05 PM
Maybe the travel will not be enough?
Maybe a magnet on a wine glass :o lol
Sorry,couldnt resist that one.

Some frequencies are far more important than others, but here, what happens if we use a half frequency to drive the one this guy is using or even double  ?

ag
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2016, 01:28:09 AM
You're not the only one that got that idea!...  I ordered mine on the 13th and will have it on Monday: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131526761089 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/131526761089)

Unfortunately my time at the lab has ran out so it may be a while before I'm able to put the device together.

Luc

Cool. They are at a good price for testing them here.  ;) Luc, always a step ahead of the crowd. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 18, 2016, 01:40:34 AM
Maybe the travel will not be enough?
Maybe a magnet on a wine glass :o lol
Sorry,couldnt resist that one.

Thought about that. But may be good anyway. If higher freq increases the efficiency, smaller movement doesnt seem to be an issue.  ;) As you have already shown compared to my 2.25 distance of travel of my mags. Will be interesting I think as we go along. It maybe a down the road we end up using quartz transducers from ultrasonic cleaners.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50W-40KHz-Ultrasonic-Piezoelectric-Cleaning-Transducer-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-/291532940937?hash=item43e0b7a689:g:Ix0AAOSwjVVVwyJo

Still decent prices for experiments.

Mags

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: gotoluc on April 18, 2016, 02:50:34 AM
Cool. They are at a good price for testing them here.  ;) Luc, always a step ahead of the crowd. ;D

Mags

Yes, best price on ebay for that low a frequency.

Finding the most efficient way to make it ring with minimal input is obviously the most important part.
This will require many tests.
A physical electromagnet hammer, like the old bells used should be tested.
We also know that using a Tuned Resonator box will allow many tuning forks of the exact frequency to ring with no additional input.
If there's any possibility of extra power it will be from the freely Resonating forks. One hammered with no load and the rest Resonating with a load.

I've been wanting to try this for years!... but for now, one step at a time

Luc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2016, 03:10:35 PM
@ Poynt--and all here interested.

Below is a few scope shot's in regards to holding the magnet still,and raising the frequency to see if there was a phase shift.

The first scope capture was taken at the resonant frequency of the oscillator,where i found the resonant frequency with the oscillator in play,and then stopped the oscillations.
The following two scope shots are at the higher frequencies with the oscillator stopped.
Please note the V/PD changes i had to make as i raised the frequency.
Even at 500Hz,i did not see much of a phase shift with the oscillator stopped.
CH1 is across the secondary /5 ohm resistor,and CH2 is across the 3 ohm CVR.
I do not know the dot convention,as the primary is sealed in apoxy resin,and i can find my compass.

In my next post,i carried out a small test that shows the bulk of the current in the secondary is being induced by the oscillating magnet.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: picowatt on April 18, 2016, 03:25:18 PM
@ Poynt--and all here interested.

Below is a few scope shot's in regards to holding the magnet still,and raising the frequency to see if there was a phase shift.

The first scope capture was taken at the resonant frequency of the oscillator,where i found the resonant frequency with the oscillator in play,and then stopped the oscillations.
The following two scope shots are at the higher frequencies with the oscillator stopped.
Please note the V/PD changes i had to make as i raised the frequency.
Even at 500Hz,i did not see much of a phase shift with the oscillator stopped.
CH1 is across the secondary /5 ohm resistor,and CH2 is across the 3 ohm CVR.
I do not know the dot convention,as the primary is sealed in apoxy resin,and i can find my compass.

In my next post,i carried out a small test that shows the bulk of the current in the secondary is being induced by the oscillating magnet.

These captures appear to show the yellow trace leading the blue trace by 90 degrees (or lagging by 270).

What does it look like with the secondary unloaded?

I believe your secondary connections may need to be flipped...

PW
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2016, 03:44:48 PM
This test was carried out to see if it is actually the oscillating magnet that is creating most of the current flow in the secondary,or the field distorting the field of the primary.

I added a diode in series with the FG output and primary coil to chop the bottom half of the AC.
The schematic below--not sure of dot convention,or how the common ground between my FG and scope will affect the seen results--but they are clear.

The first scope shot is with out the magnetic oscillator in play,and the second scope shot is with the magnetic oscillator in play.
As we can see,it is the oscillating magnet that is inducing the bulk of the EMF across the secondary/resistor combo.

My next goal is to get the 1:1 transformer wound,and also to set up the laser timing to see where the magnet is in relation to the primaries current flow.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2016, 03:48:44 PM
These captures appear to show the yellow trace leading the blue trace by 90 degrees (or lagging by 270).

What does it look like with the secondary unloaded?

I believe your secondary connections may need to be flipped...

PW

I will head out to the work shop now,and get that for you.

BBS

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 18, 2016, 04:17:31 PM
These captures appear to show the yellow trace leading the blue trace by 90 degrees (or lagging by 270).

What does it look like with the secondary unloaded?

I believe your secondary connections may need to be flipped...

PW

Second scope shot-scope probe and ground swapped over on secondary coil--still open
Third scope shot-same as second,but with oscillator in play.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: gotoluc on April 18, 2016, 05:49:10 PM
Below is a video demo I did 7 years ago demonstrating that a magnet vibrating or oscillating at the same frequency as the coil will cause a reduction in power consumption. In my case 3 times less power at the maximum frequency of 160Hz.
There is a limit to how far you can increase the frequency, which I think is caused by the friction or losses the magnet experiences while in oscillation.

Quite sure this is part of what is going on in Brad's tests as far as input power reduction.

Luc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: MagnaProp on April 19, 2016, 01:26:45 AM
Below is a video demo I did 7 years ago demonstrating that a magnet vibrating or oscillating at the same frequency as the coil will cause a reduction in power consumption...
Nicely done.

I recall this video by woopy. What happens if we get your magnet and throw some metal chunks in there to vibrate around as well?

Fast forward to 2:22 in the video...
https://youtu.be/mLK1VG8h2Wc
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2016, 03:10:55 AM
This test was carried out to see if it is actually the oscillating magnet that is creating most of the current flow in the secondary,or the field distorting the field of the primary.

I added a diode in series with the FG output and primary coil to chop the bottom half of the AC.
The schematic below--not sure of dot convention,or how the common ground between my FG and scope will affect the seen results--but they are clear.

The first scope shot is with out the magnetic oscillator in play,and the second scope shot is with the magnetic oscillator in play.
As we can see,it is the oscillating magnet that is inducing the bulk of the EMF across the secondary/resistor combo.

My next goal is to get the 1:1 transformer wound,and also to set up the laser timing to see where the magnet is in relation to the primaries current flow.

Excellent test. ;)

Does loading the sec affect the primary with the magnet in play? Just wondering as it may play out differently if the primary and sec were not wound over each other, as in putting the sec on the other side of the magnet to isolate its affect on the pri.  If winding the sec over the pri and loading the sec further reduces the primary input, then it is good as is. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 19, 2016, 03:18:28 AM
Below is a video demo I did 7 years ago demonstrating that a magnet vibrating or oscillating at the same frequency as the coil will cause a reduction in power consumption. In my case 3 times less power at the maximum frequency of 160Hz.
There is a limit to how far you can increase the frequency, which I think is caused by the friction or losses the magnet experiences while in oscillation.

Quite sure this is part of what is going on in Brad's tests as far as input power reduction.

Luc

Hey Luc

Nice vid. It seems to be conclusive that if we power a coil with ac, that introducing a magnetic motoring portion that the coil drives, that the input seems to be reduced, whether it is a rotor, a vibrating magnet or as you have shown.  ;)

So as we go along this is something we should expect and strive to improve on as part of increasing efficiency. ;)

Thanks for bringing it here.  ;D

Mags

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: telecom on April 19, 2016, 09:49:04 AM
This test was carried out to see if it is actually the oscillating magnet that is creating most of the current flow in the secondary,or the field distorting the field of the primary.

I added a diode in series with the FG output and primary coil to chop the bottom half of the AC.
The schematic below--not sure of dot convention,or how the common ground between my FG and scope will affect the seen results--but they are clear.

The first scope shot is with out the magnetic oscillator in play,and the second scope shot is with the magnetic oscillator in play.
As we can see,it is the oscillating magnet that is inducing the bulk of the EMF across the secondary/resistor combo.

My next goal is to get the 1:1 transformer wound,and also to set up the laser timing to see where the magnet is in relation to the primaries current flow.

Hi, can you further decrease the input by making a pulse instead of a sine wave?
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 19, 2016, 02:43:27 PM
Hi, can you further decrease the input by making a pulse instead of a sine wave?

That is my very next experiment.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Johan_1955 on April 19, 2016, 05:56:38 PM
Maybe the travel will not be enough?
Maybe a magnet on a wine glass :o lol
Sorry,couldnt resist that one.

Brad, but that is maybe the classe difference, this is a nice satire!

Tired, mine Grammar is ............

---------------

Maybe you're I stick and driven like you do, is perfect!

And 6 pcs more left beside the I stick, and also 6 pcs more Right beside your first I stick.

North-Poles on all 13 sticks UP, related to diameter, bit to close together, so magnets FIELDS bounce, figure from the eagle view is a non-triggered flat wave sinus moving, serpent?

The middle one I stick, is driven like done and the rest follows.

Bit like out of mine example: With the protective people surroundings from the BAD actor Royal-BBC, when they follow resonance, than let them also help to drive 13 coils above the N or South pole.

Regards, Johan
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: diegra on April 20, 2016, 12:16:29 AM
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2016, 01:43:29 AM

Hi Diegra

Very nice video!!  ;D ;)   Thanks for showing.   ;)   Nice place to work also. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 20, 2016, 04:00:33 AM
Here is scope shots of repositioning the coils closer to the magnets. The first is what was in the last video going almost full swing, limited to 1v ac in. The Yel trace is the drive coil and the blue trace is the pickup coil on the left. The second pic is using 3/4x1/2 in n52. The blue trace voltage is the same as the input, just a little thinner. Not bad for an inefficient path for the magnets flux to the coil. ;) The blue trace is pretty low with the coils out where they were. The big mags help some, and removed one of the 3/8 from each side also.

Gotta work on a better mag/coil config. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: massive on April 20, 2016, 10:07:33 PM
modern speakers are moving coil type over stationary core/magnet,
previous speakers were moving armature like shown in above pic

celestion , moving iron balanced armature patent  : #230,552 = 1925 ,  #245,704 = 1926
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Johan_1955 on April 21, 2016, 12:47:32 PM
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2016, 02:59:28 PM
Well it's throw out week around our area,and i managed to pick up 3 more smart drive washing machines.
Now have all the copper wire i need for up and coming experiments :)

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 21, 2016, 03:17:43 PM
Speaking of resonant wave's,here is a little circuit i was fooling around with many years ago

Check out the wave form lol.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2016, 07:04:03 PM
Im here at lunch break and adjusting positioning of the coils.  Still more positions to fiddle with, but Im finding it to be getting better as I go. The 2 coils are both 4ohm.

Im getting to where it is exceeding expectations between the in and the out.  If it were just the 2 coils face to face, I would expect less voltage from the pickup coil with simple induction. Very inefficient coupling. And even if the coupling were very good, I would expect only as much voltage on the pickup/secondary as I put in the primary drive coil. But here the pickup is kicking butt.  No loads yet. But I want to see how far I can get with this to see how much more voltage I can get out of the pickup vs the drive voltage. So far, 2 identical coils with just straight AC input, we are seeing it as a step up voltage converter.  I am very happy with that. ;) ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2016, 11:15:53 PM
One good reason I am happy with todays results is the fact that we know the eff of use of the mags and coils is low.  So now, if I just worked on improving the input eff on the magnetic interaction, at the same input, my output will be more. That test above is 40mw input.  Then improve the pickup side eff, i think it will be a good thing. ;)

The other day when I had gotten near equal voltage on the output was encouraging with the low eff setup. I was thinking, it has to get better due to just the thought of low eff of the magnetic couplings. Soo there it is. ;)

Moving forward....

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 21, 2016, 11:22:29 PM
One more thing. The input trace peak reading is a bit high due to spikes on the amp ch.  So the real sine peak is a bit lower than that. I calculated the input power based on that peak measurement with the spikes. So the input should be a bit lower than 40mw with a clean input.

Once we get some good base measurements here with this setup, then we rebuild for higher freq which will increase eff even more, as has already been confirmed to do so. ;D ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2016, 06:49:35 AM
Stopped at Ace Hardware and spent more than I intended. ::) ;D

They had these stainless bars and I got them.

Put this together this evening. Home made tuning fork. I put the mags on the ends with opposing fields between. It changes the freq of resonance. She is just above 55hz.

Ok, bed time and will mess with it this week.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2016, 06:55:01 AM
Oh, one thing I noticed today is when it is in resonance, if you hold the drive coil manually, it vibrates my hand the least, almost nill and can almost just sit there without the tape. Out of resonance you feel much more vibration and will bounce around if you let it go. So while playing, tape. ;D
Anyway...

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: DR.WHO on April 26, 2016, 06:55:44 PM
Your adding power to both coils ? That is not resonance ! You have to add power to one coil and both coils must resonate ! I fill you need to add a self resonating Basher free energy coil and in theory it will keep self resonating for ever on one single charge pulse ...

It can not self resonate with out this self resonating coil and I would like to see Tin mans transformer back in action to achieve the end result

What I see is mother natures secrets tat a bee and a humming bird and some Beatles have and that is a self resonating wing ! They just dont have enough energy to do what they do so resonance is the only way they can keep there wings moving constantly with out ever getting tiered.

When you have it self resonating with no battery than you truly have achieved something very important ! The frequency harmonic is going to be the key point to tune to.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2016, 11:48:20 PM
Your adding power to both coils ? That is not resonance ! You have to add power to one coil and both coils must resonate ! I fill you need to add a self resonating Basher free energy coil and in theory it will keep self resonating for ever on one single charge pulse ...

It can not self resonate with out this self resonating coil and I would like to see Tin mans transformer back in action to achieve the end result

What I see is mother natures secrets tat a bee and a humming bird and some Beatles have and that is a self resonating wing ! They just dont have enough energy to do what they do so resonance is the only way they can keep there wings moving constantly with out ever getting tiered.

When you have it self resonating with no battery than you truly have achieved something very important ! The frequency harmonic is going to be the key point to tune to.

I think your have it wrong on what Im doing here. What Im looking at is getting something to be in resonance via input to one coil and using the other coil as a generating pickup coil. So far I have gotten a higher voltage from the pickup coil than what is input to the other identical coil. Typically at these low freq if the 2 coils were set up as a 1 to 1 transformer, the pickup coil/secondary should only put out as much or less voltage than what was input to the driver/primary coil. So the mechanical resonator between the coils gives a step up transformer effect, of which is part of the investigation in these experiments.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 26, 2016, 11:55:06 PM
Here is a vid of the new setup.  The mags are not the ones I used to get the higher voltage on the pickup coil, The big mags are next. Then with a change to the height of the tuning fork on the base, Im making stands for using the original speaker magnet assys from which I got the coils from. The length of the tuning fork allows for a more straight movement of the coils if mounted to the fork, so I think I can get the speaker mag assys to work, The previous setup had to much angle of movement. So this may work well. When thats done we should see some better efficiency on the in and the out.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: DR.WHO on April 27, 2016, 01:05:44 AM
Ok That is something I can understand ! The out of phasing needs damping as there is a slight delay in kinetic transfer and the higher voltage is due to a change in resistance due to the extra magnets affect the coil .. Ohm law does not represent or hold for a reactive circuit like this set up and it can not represent resonance .

So the extra voltage or gain is due to some kind of harmonising in the electron field ! It would be most interesting if you feed the primary coil from the computer via an audio sine wave and build up harmonics via the audacity program as the resonator. This way you can stop the tuning fork and place a magnet between the two coils and continue to build up the free energy curve ..

As you add more harmonics you just increase the turns on the secondary reviving coil for more current ! The audacity program permits you cut and paste single waves and line them under each other creating a very powerful harmonic density . This than permits you to grow a very large amount of free energy if that is what you would like to happen ?

This may sound strange but with harmonics magnets and coils 1 watt can become 100 kw ....... And is done every day ! Good luck !

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 27, 2016, 01:17:00 AM
Here is a vid of the new setup.  The mags are not the ones I used to get the higher voltage on the pickup coil, The big mags are next. Then with a change to the height of the tuning fork on the base, Im making stands for using the original speaker magnet assys from which I got the coils from. The length of the tuning fork allows for a more straight movement of the coils if mounted to the fork, so I think I can get the speaker mag assys to work, The previous setup had to much angle of movement. So this may work well. When thats done we should see some better efficiency on the in and the out.

Mags

Nice going Mag's.
It was great watching the oscillations between the two sides when the strobe effect took place.
You could see that the two halves of the tuning fork were coming together at the same time--189* out of phase with each other ;).

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 27, 2016, 11:28:21 PM
Nice going Mag's.
It was great watching the oscillations between the two sides when the strobe effect took place.
You could see that the two halves of the tuning fork were coming together at the same time--189* out of phase with each other ;) .

Thanks.  I believe you could be right. maybe 188deg. lol  But it does seem to have a delayed reaction on one prong if driving only the other side.
Laundry night.  Tomorrow Im making some posts with small magnets facing outward radially. It will fit in the coil. After testing a little bit, the original speaker magnets may be too close in tolerance in the mag gap.  But while I have things set up as is, Im going to try the post with small mags around it for both the drive and pickup.

Was able to get the pickup trace to go above in voltage of the drive voltage with this setup also. Havnt done any power measurements yet as Im looking for improvement of out voltage vs in voltage as best I can get. Being they are identical coils, I think the voltage difference an is important first goal.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 07:34:07 AM
Here is the first radial magnet assy for the tuning fork. took a couple different methods to get the mags to be held next to the other ones well enough to then glue. On the last one I had to lightly dremel the inner corners to make 7 sit on the surface of the tube and be level. Im doing the other one tomorrow. That last one was a bit tough as the 2 on either side were pushing it away hard and a couple times jumped out while going for the install knocking off others. >:( ;D   Tired. Been hot here today.

Will be interesting to see the differences if any with this config. To get more advanced I would make a larger outer tube with mags on the inside facing the outside of the coil, with mags set in attraction the the inner mags, seen below. That would make the fields cutting the coils very dense. One test at a time.

When I started this thread, I didnt intend to explore why resonance is. There is enough info out there that I need not repeat it. We know that resonance is available to us and I just want to explore the use of it if possible.  If this new mag assy makes any improvement, then I am a step forward. Im already seeing more voltage out on the pickup coil than what is input to the identical driver coil, using the same magnets for each. This is not typical with any devices I have worked with so far.

A week ago, I had a thought that driving an object into resonance, and considering that the object is say, storing the input energy, just may be the same as using a flywheel instead. But after some of these things we are seeing, I believe I have come back to my senses on that idea. ;D My reasoning is to compare the 2.  If we have a pulse motor that is driven with 1 coil, and then have an identical coil as a gen coil, with a rotor(flywheel) with magnets, then go ahead and try to get as much voltage from the gen coil as you put into the drive coil. It cant happen. Many many times the gen coil voltage isnt even close to being the same as the input voltage.

But here we have already broken that barrier. So there is a difference in how the input energy is handled for the flywheel and a mechanical resonant device.  ;)

Oh yeah. I took the 2 coils and put them face to face, driving one with the same signal and level I was driving the tuning fork with, and put the scope on both. The yellow trace shows the input sine and the pickup coil had shown nada. So this resonance thing beats out close air core induction and any pulse motor Ive seen with identical coils for the driver and gen coil.

Moving forward.....

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: verpies on April 30, 2016, 09:10:33 AM
So far I have gotten a higher voltage from the pickup coil than what is input to the other identical coil. Typically at these low freq if the 2 coils were set up as a 1 to 1 transformer, the pickup coil/secondary should only put out as much or less voltage than what was input to the driver/primary coil.
In my opinion, the stainless steel bars are not a good material for the tuning fork, because they are electrically conductive and they are immersed in the varying magnetic field from the coil.

Anytime you have a conductive material that is immersed in a varying magnetic field, Eddy currents get induced in it and they waste energy.

The tuning fork would be better composed out of glass rods ...at least the ends of the arms, that are immersed in the magnetic field.

P.S.
Are these coils air-core?
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: verpies on April 30, 2016, 09:22:35 AM
@Tinman

Do you remember the time when I was helping you to build a circuit that recovered energy put into a stator coil in some kind of a rotary motor?
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 10:02:38 AM
In my opinion, the stainless steel bars are not a good material for the tuning fork, because they are electrically conductive and they are immersed in the varying magnetic field from the coil.

Anytime you have a conductive material that is immersed in a varying magnetic field, Eddy currents get induced in it and they waste energy.

The tuning fork would be better composed out of glass rods ...at least the ends of the arms, that are immersed in the magnetic field.

P.S.
Are these coils air-core?

Hey Verpies

The magnets on the plexi tubes will be moving with the fork prongs. So if you look at the previous pics and how the mags are mounted on the ends of the prongs, these will be outward also. So the mags on one prong will be moving with that prong, but are fairly far away from the other prong, and the same for the other magnet assy on the other prong. So there should not be much losses there as the magnets on the prongs are moving with the prong they are mounted to. There would probably be more interaction between the 2 mag assy's than there is with the stainless.  Looking again at the previous pics, the mag disks on the inner side of the fork prongs are in repulsion as it helped rasise the freq by adding more spring action. This is why I havnt put the coils on the prongs with  the mags base mounted, as there would be more concern of what you are saying if the prongs are moving near the stationary magnet. But there are ways around it if it is an issue, say we could put plexi extensions on the prongs to get the mags away from the bars. Or glass as you suggest.

Yes the coils are out of car speakers.  The new mag assy's should provide more flux density through the windings than the way I was having the poles of the mags inline with the coils previously.  If these mag assy's increase efficiency, on the drive side and the gen side, we should have an increase in output voltage over the input, beyond what I have gotten already. Once I get to a point of that I feel I cant increase the output voltage vs input any further within reason, then I will start doing in/out power tests.  Like I said, with 2 identical coils, one driver and one pickup coil, using the same mags for each, to get higher voltage from the pickup than what is input to the drive coil(remembering the input is sine AC at low freq, below 60hz so far) is an important accomplishment to me.  The one thing that is making the connection between the in and the out is the mechanical resonant device. It is what is making the transfer from in to out.

Mags

I like the glass forks. Ive seen some out there.   ;D

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: verpies on April 30, 2016, 10:30:45 AM
Yes, the eddy current losses in the metal could be even higher, but that does not mean they are low now.
Conductive metal is still immersed in a varying magnetic field from the coils.  That's lossy even if the metal is not moving.

That voltage increase is interesting, but voltage is not energy.  Resonant rise is known to increase voltage at the cost of the current, regardless whether it is a mechanical resonance or LC resonance.

Looking forward to further numbers.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2016, 10:34:35 AM
@Tinman

Do you remember the time when I was helping you to build a circuit that recovered energy put into a stator coil in some kind of a rotary motor?

lol Yes,i do.
Why is that?

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: verpies on April 30, 2016, 10:44:01 AM
lol Yes,i do.
Why is that?
I was thinking, that in these experiments, it would also be good to recover the energy stored in the coil, at the end of each cycle - after the tuning fork arm was attracted fully in.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on April 30, 2016, 11:30:27 AM
I was thinking, that in these experiments, it would also be good to recover the energy stored in the coil, at the end of each cycle - after the tuning fork arm was attracted fully in.

Yes,that is on the cards.
At the moment,im trying to come up with a more efficient kind of transformer,biggest problem being it has to be an air core type.

Im leaning toward a cylindrical magnet accelerating through the center of the coil,where it becomes the core it self.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: verpies on April 30, 2016, 01:24:57 PM
Im leaning toward a cylindrical magnet accelerating through the center of the coil,where it becomes the core it self.
That's really hard to do mechanically without reciprocating or whole lot of rolling friction!
...but I noticed, that you are pretty good in solving mechanical problems.

Whatever you do, please keep any metal conductive holders of the magnets, away from the varying magnetic field of the coil or the Eddy currents will cause significant energy losses in the metal holders  (even if the holders are not moving).  I know my stuff, too  ::)
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 06:23:22 PM
Yes, the eddy current losses in the metal could be even higher, but that does not mean they are low now.
Conductive metal is still immersed in a varying magnetic field from the coils.  That's lossy even if the metal is not moving.

That voltage increase is interesting, but voltage is not energy.  Resonant rise is known to increase voltage at the cost of the current, regardless whether it is a mechanical resonance or LC resonance.

Looking forward to further numbers.

I agree that there is some loss there. Back when TK had the wipmag vids, he had 2 small aluminum spacers set at particular positions around the rotor and closer to the CCW stator mag. He called them something like magneto iso kinetic dampers that gave a slight drag to regulate the assy when running due to the CCW stator would cut out of sync at higher rpms.

But for now lets see where we get with what we have and we can even test the issue by replacing the mags with weights of the same nature and see if one rings longer with or without the mags where they are. I can set up a mag lower on the fork closer to the base and send a ping pulse to the coil. Will be interesting.

Yes the voltage increase is interesting. For any particular coil  with a speed consistent magnet pole pass will produce a particular voltage. And for that coil used, and the open voltage it produces, the current capability should be predictable, for a given field strength and speed of the pass. So Im thinking that if the 2 coils are identical, with identical magnets for the drive and the pickup, and both mags moving at the same speed, I would expect less on the output coil. But I dont have that. I have more.
So in my mindset, I have to consider going for the best in/out voltage ratio as best I can first. I think that considering what I said above, if the output voltage gets to be higher than the input, the higher the better.

Another thing Ive tried with the previous magnet setup is to short out the pickup coil. It just about kills off the vibration. But then retuning input freq brings it back close to full throw. I like that also.

But as we all know, this is interesting, but more testing as we go along will show what it shows.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 06:28:09 PM
Yes,that is on the cards.
At the moment,im trying to come up with a more efficient kind of transformer,biggest problem being it has to be an air core type.

Im leaning toward a cylindrical magnet accelerating through the center of the coil,where it becomes the core it self.

I had read that for an air core transformer, it is best to wind the primary as the outer layer and the sec as the inner layer. Just a tidbit. If the windings are the same ratio, that could be tested as to what is better. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 06:35:45 PM
That's really hard to do mechanically without reciprocating or whole lot of rolling friction!
...but I noticed, that you are pretty good in solving mechanical problems.

Whatever you do, please keep any metal conductive holders of the magnets, away from the varying magnetic field of the coil or the Eddy currents will cause significant energy losses in the metal holders  (even if the holders are not moving).  I know my stuff, too  ::)

There is yet another problem, that may be instilled in their design purposely. 8) ;) The neo mags are coated with nickle, mostly. Then break one apart and the neo material is very low resistance, virtually dead short. So the mags are problematic in the same manner. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 06:41:42 PM
or,,,

leave the core metal and turn it into a magnet,,

Nice Webby. ;D   (corrected that. I had Watts instead of Webby) ::) ;D

If the end of the rotor were thinner, those stators could be nearly closed.  Had thought of that in a square fashion and the stators were 1 big closed ring tube with a thin inner radius slot for a disk to breach the inside. Anyway, I like that. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 06:44:52 PM

For what it's worth....here is my recommendation.  I really hope you see and can appreciate what this text and illustrations are suggesting.

Regards

I like that also, just by looking at the drawings I see what is going on.  Saved it to read later. Thanks ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 09:24:40 PM
Thanks,

I tried a few things and went back to the setup in the pic,, the soft steal core worked the best all around and making it longer did not seem to help,, nor making it smaller.

There are 2 balance points,, one is where the core is directly between two sector holders,, the other is when the sector holder is directly in the middle of the core.

What is the difference in a mechanical oscillation if the core is pulled only one way from center when it is the PM that is doing the pulling,, left side or right side the pull is the same,, so without the loss of momentum completely,, no stopping and reversing,, anything left over might be able to be used.

This motor could be run on less than 6mA @ 24V and spin at about 50RPM,, my meter would show a 0.9mA draw often for extended time periods.

Cool. ;) Any vids of it going?

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on April 30, 2016, 09:28:47 PM

I gave it a once over myself when it was first brought to my attention.  I too presumed to know what was going after glancing over the drawings.  My surprise was only equaled by my awe as I discovered through attempts on the bench that I had no idea what the author was suggesting.

This one deserves more than just a casual read.  More than just basic consideration, and not just because it totally relates to what you are doing, no.  A few have barked up this tree and missed the goodies.  I cannot tell you what to do nor how to do it.  I can only say I highly recommend this one, and hope its not blown off.

Regards

lol. I here ya. Yep, I have found that the pics are worth less words than the description when it comes to patents. But I try to figure it from the pics anyway.  ;)

Thanks. Im going to read it.. Would it deserve it own thread?

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: verpies on April 30, 2016, 11:15:02 PM
The neo mags are coated with nickle, mostly. Then break one apart and the neo material is very low resistance, virtually dead short. So the mags are problematic in the same manner. ;)
Yes and I was aware of it quite well but did not want to go overboard with criticizing your setups.

In my opinion, there is no anomalous behavior to be had with hard ferromagnetics (even ceramic ones) but there is hope for soft ones.
I was planning to remind you about it after you hit a dead end with magnets, without making discouraging statements ahead of that time.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 01, 2016, 12:37:37 AM
@Magluvin

Regarding your video of the fork magnets, the way the pick up coil magnet is set-up as it moves in and out this is not creating the best change across the coil because the magnet is basically doing only a slight movement in and out and not actually sweeping across the inside of the coil far enough.

If the magnet first started with a non magnet material (red - see below) that reaches just before the center of the coil at rest and the magnet itself was only like a 25 cent piece, thin, then the copper atoms would actually have to follow that smaller magnet. Compare that to what you have now where the copper atoms don't have to follow much because the magnet is always there. That would explain why your are only outputting not even 1 volt.

Also, if the pickup coil was wound with multiple 2 turn coils then each could output immediately instead of having to fight their way through the obvious commotion that will result in trying to output all that is happening from only one line. You would probably output more with only a 2 turn coil then with all those winds.

Maybe to say it is better to remove that pickup coil and experiment with various pickup winds and you may stumble onto something much better.

wattsup

PS: Just curious. Did you try pulsing at 7.84Hz. Maybe the Shewman resonance would help rebias the pick up coil and show more output.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 01, 2016, 03:59:23 PM
@Magluvin

Just to expand a bit more on my previous post, because every little gadget has its own means to show effects, consider your previous build with what we could derive as both fork ends being almost or perfectly identical in weight and stroke and length, all that is really left to play with is mutual resonance. But what if the drive side was smaller and the pick up side was like the above diagram or a variation of this. The weights would be off. More weight and shorter stroke on the drive side and less weight and longer stoke on the pick up side. So now the drive side needs to find the pick up side resonance.

Also, since this is lower mechanical resonance, if you had the pickup side feeding a germanium dioded capacitor and a reed switch funneling that energy to the drive side, you can load the capacitor once with a battery and manually start the swing and see if it will run on its own. hahahahahahahahahaha
I know, always works so well in the mind.

Another variable to consider is the length of each fork. Who says they should be identical length. Is there an advantage to deploy some difference in fork length hence ductility to promote more leverage?

I just love little toys like this because they are so easy to work out in the mind. You can sit there and run variables in your mind for a few hours to figure out the best possible avenues to try before even doing anything further. It's such a treat for the mind.

I am presently doing boring AC tests with one car battery, two inverters running two scopes so both are floating from each other as well. Something is really funny in one of the effects that I will make a video soon and post it on @tinmans JT thread since it has been abandoned. hahahaha AC = Always Curious.

wattsup

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2016, 12:05:03 AM
Yes and I was aware of it quite well but did not want to go overboard with criticizing your setups.

In my opinion, there is no anomalous behavior to be had with hard ferromagnetics (even ceramic ones) but there is hope for soft ones.
I was planning to remind you about it after you hit a dead end with magnets, without making discouraging statements ahead of that time.

No problem.  Im not going to remove posts that are intended to help. Only posts that intend to insult, or degrade what is going on in this thread.

Im a bit slow Id say when it comes to learning certain things. Ive spent a lot of time with this beyond what it looks like here so far. Hands on is much better than just reading about things. Hands on helps things stick in my mind better. So there are little details of this that I pick up that I could not read about and make conclusions or progress toward  conclusions. What Im talking about here is resonance itself. Ive known it exists for a long time. But there just isnt much out there that shows what we are going for here. So with what I have or can get, it is what I have to work with.

The reasoning for making this thread is something after all these years has become more apparent to me. The basic idea is to have a resonant device, some how, between the input and output. With what I have seen so far, I believe, or even to say, I know this is a good direction to go.

When Im finished with the mechanical, we will try to translate it into all electronic. Just a glimpse of what Im thinking is 2 transformers, an input transformer and an output transformer with a resonant circuit between them. Like a resonant pendulum between the transformers. Or it is just 1 transformer assy with the input and output coils with the resonant circuit. Im working on some tests on the side to have something to present in a new thread, when that time comes.

Went to a car show with my boss yesterday. Putting the other mag assy together here now. So Ill possibly have a vid in a little bit.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2016, 12:42:03 AM
@Magluvin

Regarding your video of the fork magnets, the way the pick up coil magnet is set-up as it moves in and out this is not creating the best change across the coil because the magnet is basically doing only a slight movement in and out and not actually sweeping across the inside of the coil far enough.

If the magnet first started with a non magnet material (red - see below) that reaches just before the center of the coil at rest and the magnet itself was only like a 25 cent piece, thin, then the copper atoms would actually have to follow that smaller magnet. Compare that to what you have now where the copper atoms don't have to follow much because the magnet is always there. That would explain why your are only outputting not even 1 volt.

Also, if the pickup coil was wound with multiple 2 turn coils then each could output immediately instead of having to fight their way through the obvious commotion that will result in trying to output all that is happening from only one line. You would probably output more with only a 2 turn coil then with all those winds.

Maybe to say it is better to remove that pickup coil and experiment with various pickup winds and you may stumble onto something much better.

wattsup

PS: Just curious. Did you try pulsing at 7.84Hz. Maybe the Shewman resonance would help rebias the pick up coil and show more output.

Hey Watts

The ones with the magnets poles on axis with the coil is fairly inefficient, yet the results in my mind are exciting. So the last pic of the plexi tube and small mags with poles out radially will have more dense flux cutting the windings perpendicular to the windings. The mags are the same width as the coil.  It will be together in a bit. So lets see what happens and if it improves the outcome from what we have seen so far.

I thought about different mass weight on each fork, but that changes the freq for each.

Havnt tried Shewman freq. What do you think might happen? Would it be earth polar directional? Is it a radial signal from the earth, like up and down? Let me know some details as such and we can try some things.

Mags

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2016, 12:49:27 AM
@Magluvin

Just to expand a bit more on my previous post, because every little gadget has its own means to show effects, consider your previous build with what we could derive as both fork ends being almost or perfectly identical in weight and stroke and length, all that is really left to play with is mutual resonance. But what if the drive side was smaller and the pick up side was like the above diagram or a variation of this. The weights would be off. More weight and shorter stroke on the drive side and less weight and longer stoke on the pick up side. So now the drive side needs to find the pick up side resonance.

Also, since this is lower mechanical resonance, if you had the pickup side feeding a germanium dioded capacitor and a reed switch funneling that energy to the drive side, you can load the capacitor once with a battery and manually start the swing and see if it will run on its own. hahahahahahahahahaha
I know, always works so well in the mind.

Another variable to consider is the length of each fork. Who says they should be identical length. Is there an advantage to deploy some difference in fork length hence ductility to promote more leverage?

I just love little toys like this because they are so easy to work out in the mind. You can sit there and run variables in your mind for a few hours to figure out the best possible avenues to try before even doing anything further. It's such a treat for the mind.

I am presently doing boring AC tests with one car battery, two inverters running two scopes so both are floating from each other as well. Something is really funny in one of the effects that I will make a video soon and post it on @tinmans JT thread since it has been abandoned. hahahaha AC = Always Curious.

wattsup

"Also, since this is lower mechanical resonance, if you had the pickup side feeding a germanium dioded capacitor and a reed switch funneling that energy to the drive side, you can load the capacitor once with a battery and manually start the swing and see if it will run on its own. hahahahahahahahahaha
I know, always works so well in the mind."

;)   I had thought of that early on possibly using a JT to conv to a higher voltage in the discharge cap. So the reed would be activated at near peak throw and discharge into a coil to pull the pen a bit further from its reed activation point. or the Tesla igniter pat circuit.

"I am presently doing boring AC tests with one car battery, two inverters running two scopes so both are floating from each other as well. Something is really funny in one of the effects that I will make a video soon and post it on @tinmans JT thread since it has been abandoned. hahahaha AC = Always Curious."

Would be interesting to see. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on May 02, 2016, 05:46:49 AM
Ok. The new mag assy's did not work as well as the big magnets in previous pics and vids. :-[

Next will be a different approach. Magnets and coils configured like in a hard drive.

Im seeing that the fork can only vibrate so much, and above a certain point power input becomes more with lesser movement increase of the fork. This was with either mag setup. Im thinking that maybe the iron bars would need to be longer for more throw. It seems to have best in/out voltage ratio when the input is around 1v for either mag setup.  The first setup seems to be a better model to work with between the 2.

Looking into another design where the spring will be done with magnets in repulsion. One magnet mounted to the mover and 2 on either side mounted to the base. This will give me a lot of adjustability without trying newer materials, cutting different lengths, or adding weights.

Ill put up a couple pics tomorrow of what I have here then I will try adding more weight to the ends and see what difference that makes. Then Ill work out the new setup.

Tired.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on May 03, 2016, 02:51:47 PM
As this is the mechanical resonance thread,maybe a different approach ?

Quote: Parallel resonance or near-to-resonance circuits can be used to prevent the waste of electrical energy, which would otherwise occur while the inductor built its field or the capacitor charged and discharged. As an example, asynchronous motors waste inductive current while synchronous ones waste capacitive current. The use of the two types in parallel makes the inductor feed the capacitor, and vice versa, maintaining the same resonant current in the circuit, and converting all the current into useful work.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2016, 02:16:46 AM
Here's a little something to dream on whilst your resonating.

Frenchmen  set the world record for hoverboard distance and time ...he slaughtered the previous record and says he can go to 10,000 feet.[he uses a Jet engine not rockets [kinda secret]]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/flyboard-air-franky-zapatas-hoverboard-sets-new-guinness-world-record-furthest-flight-1557959

and there's a magnetic one mentioned in the link.
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on May 04, 2016, 03:53:56 AM
Here are the pics. No matter what I did, the output voltage was just below input or less.  The mags are as wide as the windings. Seemed like it would have been good. The only thing I suspect is less flux density as compared to the big N52s.  Thinking on a new mag/coil config...

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 04, 2016, 01:53:13 PM
@Magluvin

Should have posted this last night but just conked out. Sorry for delay in responding. I have been busy these days with several projects and getting ready to publish soon on Spin Conveyance. It ain't easy. At the same time I am looking to make a few videos on AC.

My curiosity about the 7.84Hz was just because I have seen often times that while sweeping across those low frequencies you can often see something very different at this frequency or around this frequency. I don't know why. It could be that the Shewman Frequency (SF) being that of the Earth (or near that of the Earth since it does change) is one hell of a big coil pulsing under our feet. The problem is how can you know when the frequency is at its high and low peaks to then know when to sync to it since phasing will be the most important factor. I would gather that everything on this planet is exposed to the SF but it is so slight that when you pulse anything else to its own phase cycles, the SF is just insignificant. But if you specifically wanted to work with the SF as a rebiasing agent, it may provide some interesting effects. And since mechanical movements like magnets near coils marry the physical and the electrical, maybe there is a way to find the proper phase relation between the movement, the induced coil and the SF being available to rebias that coil at the right or favorable moment for the next movement. It's really not easy but when you have an FG nearby it's always good to check it out. I know when I do variable pulsing I instinctively always try 7.84.

Recently I did some Half Coil Syndrome videos and in one of them I was using one coil and several compasses. Of course using low frequencies and while sweeping I would see the compasses spinning in erratic ways, nothing to see anything special until I hit the 7.84 area and all of a sudden they all aligned. I cannot explain the why of that. It's as if the coil pulse was in sync with the SF and the compasses reflected this, but if phasing is also an issue then this may have been a one in a million event. I'll have to try it again. Easy to do. An FG, one coil and a few compasses. See below. hehehe

Anyways always good to see your works as well as @tinmans.

Just got my second battery all charged up and the set-up is ready to start doing some tests with AC. This will put the scopes floating off the mains and off each other. I already found one very weird effect. I will post more on this on the JT thread since all it's being used for now is more squabbling.

This guy does a good job of explaining grounding issues.

Here is a question for anyone in the know. I tried finding this formal information on scopes but cannot find a definite answer. So you have a scope probe and a ground. Under normal settings, that is without the math function, how does the scope resolve the two?. When we say differential this implies Probe minus Ground (my choice) or is it Ground minus Probe or is there another differential formula that scopes are all designed to derive in terms of the resulting waveform? A few weeks ago I Googled this for a few hours without finding a clear or definitive answer. It seems like this basic information is being given the run around or what? It's not even clear in my scope manual. I need to find this as an official EE explanation.

@tinman Sorry for off topic. Next post will be for @Mags last post.

wattsup

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 04, 2016, 03:29:18 PM
@Magluvin

Let's use the "Wow" word again. That's one hell of a magnet set-up but the problem I see right away is on the secondary side those magnets are facing the inside of the coil and everything is still happening everywhere at the same time.

That's why I mentioned on the secondary side to use multiple two turn coils in parallel. The more length of wire in your one secondary, the more chance you will just create major snags in how that wire can establish a potential difference.

Also, you already had a working drive side. You pulsed the drive coil and the magnet moved out then came back in with the spring action of the fork. So the drive side did not even need changing because it already did its job. There is no rule saying each side has to be symmetrical in terms of the magnets or the coils. I would have kept it like it was on the drive side. Then with the drive going I would have just kept the pick up magnets without a coil and manually approached a wide range of coils nears the magnet with just an LED on the coil terminals or like my Diode Carousel just quickly connected to any coil and move it manually around that moving pick up magnet side and see how the LED responds. Eventually those trials will give you a better idea on how to make the pick up coil which should be th e only real variable.

It all stems from how you see the magnet creating its impress on the coil. You guys see it as a field permeating a general area around the coil and this creates electron flow. I now see it in a totally different way that is more precise, more vectoral, more premeditated then our present general way. For me, the copper wire has atoms with nucleus gyroscopes and the trick is to make them gyros twitch and convey that twitch down the wire line to create the potential difference across those terminals of the coil. This variation in how you see the effect actually is occurring in a micro second by micro second manner that is then conveyed throughout the wire will make all the difference in how you see devices working. I had prepared some effect patterns for @tinmans JT device but did not post them because of all the needless commotion. The problem is in each wire, the effect on one side of the wire closest the magnet will be in reverse for atoms on the other side of the same wire and this is why we see CEMF.

Think of it like the nucleus of the copper atom is like a very healthy dog and you are playing retrieve the ball with the dog. So the dog is in front of you and he is totally concentrated following every micro movement of your hand. You can fake a throw and it will turn its head but quickly know it's not thrown yet and it continues just following that ball in every way your hand moves. Now imagine you were in front of 1000 dogs, some are facing you while some have their backs to you while others have their sides facing you but from wherever they are they are all trying to look at that ball move. The ones much further away that cannot see the ball get their cue from the others closer to the action. Move you hand up, all try to look up, move it down, all try to look down, move it left or right and all will have their heads moving left and right, but because they are all packed together, each movement from one dog creates a counter movement for another. Resonance is when the most amount of dogs can move their heads in tandem but it will never be all 1000 dogs, maybe 200 if you are really really lucky but most likely 10 or 20 when you ove th eball really really fast. This is a simplified way of explaining it but if you took this simple explanation and extending into every other EE effect, you will soon realize that you do not need any dog to run down the line (electron flow) or run down then run back (AC) or even take a quick step to one side and back (DC). All they need to do is follow the ball with their heads and their bodies are just standing on the spot all the time so the complete line of dogs never changes (copper wire does not change).

So with your simple little toy it becomes a good example of how perspective will change how you go about doing experiments. With the field/electron flow, everything becomes just permeated so no need to concentrate on the atomic micro effects. Just splash all over and wait or hope for the wave and even better hope for a tsunami but the tsunami never comes. But with SC everything becomes micro intentional. Your conscious of the micro atomic action of the nucleus and can from there start to concoct builds that will intentionally target those actions and use them for your advantage.

This also then gives you ideas on how to arrange the dogs. What if those 1000 dogs all had their heads facing you instead of all over the place. One movement would result in 1000 synchronized movements would do what? This would open up a whole new science of oriented copper and throw out all these EE Laws that are all based on random atomic nuclei. Maybe flattening copper wire and placing a strong magnet on one side as it exits the flattening device would arrange them nuclei in a more favorable (never perfect) direction. The more nuclei facing the same way the better output you would get, but the even better amperage you would get AT RESONANCE where the voltage also rises. But that is not for today or tomorrow. The funnest part of working with mechanical devices is you blow less mosfets. hahahaha

@tinman Hope this is on topic although yes it's coming from out of our regular box.

wattsup

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: picowatt on May 04, 2016, 03:36:05 PM
Just got my second battery all charged up and the set-up is ready to start doing some tests with AC. This will put the scopes floating off the mains and off each other. I already found one very weird effect. I will post more on this on the JT thread since all it's being used for now is more squabbling.

Wattsup,

Your set up is very dangerous and I strongly urge you to stop what you are doing.  If you want to work with AC voltage measurements, get a low voltage AC transformer to work with as I have already suggested.

You are apparently planning to attach each of your scopes grounds to opposing sides of the AC line.  One look at the photo you posted clearly demonstrates you are not at all aware of or prepared for the likely consequences of doing this.

Everyone reading this should join in with me in urging you to stop before you harm yourself, someone else, or your equipment.

PW
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: ramset on May 04, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
PW
You should have a look at wattsups Build page for the TPU [maybe he could post a link?}
he has spent thousands of hours Hunting on His Bench for the elusive TPU secret.

Not his First summer and most certainly no where near the most dangerous thing he has played with.

He is most definitely a Veteran Here and there probably is NO limit to what he will attempt on his Bench in this
Quest .

But yes I agree  Voltage or current can Kill you very quickly and this should come as no surprise to
even the youngest who read here.

along with Stepping off the Curb without looking both ways etc etc etc.

respectfully
Chet
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: tinman on May 04, 2016, 04:09:14 PM

Wattsup,

Your set up is very dangerous and I strongly urge you to stop what you are doing.  If you want to work with AC voltage measurements, get a low voltage AC transformer to work with as I have already suggested.

You are apparently planning to attach each of your scopes grounds to opposing sides of the AC line.  One look at the photo you posted clearly demonstrates you are not at all aware of or prepared for the likely consequences of doing this.

Everyone reading this should join in with me in urging you to stop before you harm yourself, someone else, or your equipment.

PW

I have to agree with PW wattsup--you are about to place a dead short across live HV AC.

Take PWs advice,and switch to a low voltage AC source-->this will still fry your equipment like you seem to want to do here,but will leave you breathing,and thinking about where you can get the cash for your replacement scope.

Fool around with some magnets,solar panels,ecore's,diamagnetic and paramagnetic materials instead--it's safer and more fun.

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: citfta on May 04, 2016, 09:20:13 PM
Guys,

Did you read what he posted?  He has both scopes isolated from mains ground and both scopes isolated from each other.  He will NOT be creating a short from one side of the AC to the other side of the AC.  The only real danger will be if he touches both scope cases at the same time as most scopes do have the ground side of the probe tied to the case of the scope.  I also am not real sure he is even talking about mains AC as it looks like he has a small inverter connected or near one of the batteries.  I also know he had been around these forums for years so I do not doubt he knows what he is doing.  He also wouldn't have commented about the scopes being isolated if he wasn't aware of the problem of them not being isolated.

When I worked in industry we commonly had to isolate the scope because many motor controllers are designed in such a way that the low side of the motor control is still hot in relation to ground and you will blow the scope if you don't use an isolation plug.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: picowatt on May 04, 2016, 09:36:18 PM
Guys,

Did you read what he posted.  He has both scopes isolated from mains ground and both scopes isolated from each other.  He will NOT be creating a short from one side of the AC to the other side of the AC.

Of the list of bad things that can happen, a dead short, spark, a blown circuit breaker and a brief WTF moment followed by the subsequent discovery of damage to equipment is the best case scenario.

Quote
The only real danger will be if he touches both scope cases at the same time as most scopes do have the ground side of the probe tied to the case of the scope.

That's exactly right, there is a very real danger to life and limb.

If you have been following his posts, you would be aware of what he is wanting to do and his limited understanding of  how and why the AC line is wired as it is.  Having one of the scopes, its inverter, and its battery at line potential in close proximity to another scope, inverter, and battery at the neutral or opposing line potential is just asking for trouble.

One look at the posted photo of his bench setup should be cause for extreme concern...

PW
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 04, 2016, 10:12:59 PM
@PW and all

Still at work but will be home tonight.

My scopes are both floating since each one is driven by it's own car battery and its own inverter so there is no danger in blowing the equipment.

The reason I am going straight to mains with these floating probes is to remove any possible excuses of using a Variac or any step-down transformer as being a hindrance from actually using the real neutral line. I fully understand the danger but have done some quick tests last night and there is no adverse effects. As long as you do not touch two terminals with your hands and this is why I am employing SM's one hand technique. The probe and ground can now go on either the hot or neutral without any problems.

I also have a direct ground line that I had put in the backyard a few years ago which is a 1/2" by 8' long solid copper rod that I planted vertically 10' deep so the top is 2 feet below the surface. I have a copper line going from there to my bench to also test the differences between the mains neutral and a true Earth ground. I already saw something that I will video as curious and am sure will have some of you scratching your heads to explain it. I don't have an answer as of yet.

I do not suggest anyone do this because yes, there is an element of danger but I am perfectly confident of my handling skills otherwise I would not do it. I know my limits and also know when to ask questions that others may be more experienced to answer, hence my question about how the scope derives the differential sine wave with a probe and ground. I need an official EE explanation as this will be part of my overall analysis later on. The only other variable is the added task of making a video which will require some additional attention that must not detract me from the proper handling. But I think I will be OK.

Thanks for the concern. I will be back soon but on the JT thread so it will again become useful and free this one for mechanical resonance works which is again a real treat for the mind.

wattsup

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 04, 2016, 10:23:26 PM
@PW

Just saw your post and thanks. I will add a thick piece of wood between the two scopes event though the top one is plastic with plastic feet but just in case. I will also wear some gloves and make a point of not touching the lower scope chassis. hahahahahahahaha

wattsup

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: citfta on May 05, 2016, 03:49:39 PM
Hi wattsup,

I don't see where anyone answered your questions about a scope.  I am not an EE but I have used scopes for over 40 years and even from time to time had to repair one.  If I understand your question correctly you want to know how a scope displays the signal on the screen.  The old analogue scopes are the easiest to understand so we will start with them.   As you are already aware the ground clip of your probe is connected to the chassis and ground side of the amplifying circuit.  This just becomes a reference point to use as a convenient place to compare the signal to.  With your scope floating as you have done this reference point is entirely relative to everything else.  This allows you to make measurements that are NOT referenced to ground.

In simple terms if we wanted to measure the voltage on a 12 volt battery with a scope if we connect the ground clip to the negative post we would see 12 volts positive when the signal side of the probe was connected to the positive post.  If we connect the ground clip to the positive post then we would see a negative 12 volts on the signal side.  Whatever we see on the signal side is in relation to where the ground clip is connected.

I am not sure how much further you need information but we will go a little farther.  The signal on the probe is fed to an amplifier that the sends the signal on to the deflection plates of the crt to cause the trace to move up and down according to the signal on the probe.
A digital scope doesn't actually display the signal directly like the analogue scope.  Instead it takes very tiny very short samples of the signal and then plots the curve on the screen.  These short samples allow the math functions to have something to calculate.

The simplest way to think of a scope is that it is just a voltmeter with a visual display so you can see changing voltages and complex waveforms.

If I haven't answered you questions please explain again what it is you are trying to understand.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on May 06, 2016, 02:18:48 AM
Hey Watts

Is there resonance in your experiment? If so, you can make another thread on this board on that? Just that this thread is working with mechanical resonance. Dont want to thicken it up with other things.

If it is on this board, it will be moderated at your request if needed. Just ask Brad or me if there are any problems. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: wattsup on May 06, 2016, 03:14:40 PM
@tinman

Sorry again for off topic. I should not have raised the scope question here but will just respond to @citfta quickly. I just hate opening new threads but maybe it would deserve a thread indeed.

@citfta

Yes I understand that basic function but needed to know if there is a specific equation that the scope resolves from the values it receives from the probe and ground. I will start a new thread this weekend on AC and will bring up this question again since the scope does in fact use the AC neutral in every measurement. Thanks for your response.

But here is one small crumb for thought. If AC is alternating current between the hot and neutral, then how is the scope able to measure steady potentials and derive them when the scope ground is actually an AC neutral that is supposed to be alternating during half of every one cycle? If that neutral half cycle is energizing the scope itself at every half cycle for it to function then how can that same neutral, now become an impartial probe ground? Ouch - brain squeeze. Constructs should never surpass logic.

@Mags

No I am not doing anything with mechanical resonance these days because my plate is rather full as it is. I will eventually do some resonance tests but I am planning to use only a 1 inch length of wire as a secondary and create micro movements around that wire. This will be when I get deeper into Spin Conveyance where if you consider any device that produces any form of output to a load, the last inch of wire before the load is conveying all the potential effects of the device to the load so all the activity in that 1 inch of wire is really the final effect that is transmitted to the load. I would like to see if there is a way to directly produce an outer effect around a 1 inch of wire to produce the energy going to the load and I am sure resonance will play heavily in this. If I can make the dogs swing their heads left and right in that 1 inch of wire, why should I need a complete coil? But I am not there yet. But actually in SC, even primary to secondary resonance in a coil is mechanical resonance because it considers the energy to be physically conveyed and not electron flow based.

Consider what I suggested in my post about your secondary coil in the fork thingy. Sorter secondary turns will remove the energy quicker with less cancellation potential.

Ask yourself this: Why does a coil prefer that a magnet polarity pass beside it in a perpendicular direction? Why would non-physical electrons care about direction and then how can non-physical electrons then know or decide which direction to flow to create the potential difference in your coil? Now look at E=MC2. It's all mass in movement. Mass can move or it can spin or swing or sway, it's all still movement. But you still need the mass which is physical. So how can a physical magnet move and create a non-physical movement of electrons? Oh but electrons have mass. Well if electrons have mass then that coil needs to change its weight while it is energized because moving mass at speeds of near light has to create some level of inertia. OK, sorry going to deep but hope you get the point here. Constructs cannot surpass logic man. Logic will save you every time.

@picowatt

Just did my first video and will post it this weekend but on a new tread. I don't want it on the JT thread because of all the commotion.

wattsup

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on June 05, 2016, 04:24:34 AM
After working with the bending strip and the tuning fork, Ive found I want more adjust abilities. So I am putting this wheel into the mix using magnets as the spring actors.

I wasnt fully convinced that increasing freq with the other 2 examples gave me more efficiency. So Tinman has me beat there. ;D

Will be making drive coils tomorrow that fit the distance requirements of the wheel hole positions. Im interested to see how the drive will be achieved facing the points I make in the vid below. Using 1 magnet on the wheel in attraction to the stator changes freq drastically depending on the distance of movement, something I didnt show on the vid. But the less the distance of the wheel back and forth, the higher the freq.  Wasnt expecting these issues.....

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on June 05, 2016, 09:29:12 PM
I figured out what might be the cause of the freq change while oscillating down.  Its my magnet config I believe. The mags should be face to face for the spring operation.
Going to work with it as is to see how it works with drive input. May be good, may not. Working on it now.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on June 06, 2016, 11:25:49 PM
Ok. Just doing some simple input with a stator coil and mags on the wheel, Im finding the resonant freq point is not a sharp point of max resonance. Meaning it is a some what wide band of resonating frequencies it will operate at. It must be the magnetic spring config where the spring is not linear.  Like if center freq is 11hz, I can get it to ring at 9hz and 13hz, but those outer freq need a boost to get them going and then will follow the input. like if I stop it at 13hz without changing the input, it will need a higher input to get it going then lower the input to keep it going. Odd. And when i get it started by upping the input to get it going, it still seems to want to have the same back and forth throw after turning the input down, which may be interesting as I will discuss that later.

So my next step is to try using the Tesla Igniter pat circuit to see if it will run and find its own best freq.  Will use a reed to trigger timing. I will have my dc input with a large inductor in series with a diode and all series loop with a cap. The reed will discharge the cap into a low inductance drive coil as a pulse. Then after the pulse, reed still closed, the large inductor will charge up. Then when the reed opens, the large inductor will charge the cap to a high voltage for driver pulse.  So we want the cap discharge to be a very quick pulse and after the pulse is done, the reed still closed, the large inductor will limit the current of the drive coil as to not affect the wheel much till the reed opens.  Will be interesting to see if it works. And hopefully it will find the center resonant freq.

Mags
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Berto3 on July 07, 2016, 01:34:47 AM
Last winter I did some experiments with magnets in resonance in a linear tube. At both sides of the tube is a bounce magnet. The magnetic field of a  pulsed coil makes the magnet(s) moving back and forth. At a certain frequency the magnet is in resonance. My goal was to measure the output of the pick-up coil(s) when magnets in resonance. Conclusion: The very low frequence of 6 to 12 Hz needs an other structure of the pickup coils. When you want to benefit from the lower input power by resonance of the magnet, the output coils have to be many narrow coils in series.
or
Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on September 15, 2016, 11:38:57 PM

For what it's worth....here is my recommendation.  I really hope you see and can appreciate what this text and illustrations are suggesting.

Regards

Got sidetracked with work. So hadnt posted in a bit.

I really like the way that the magnet arrangement helps to get all sides of the windings fluxed.   ;D

getting some time to do more here.

Mags

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on September 15, 2016, 11:58:16 PM
All...

So far Im caught between the possibility of... Its either the resonant go between that caused the gain in voltage on the pickup coil compared to the drive coil, which are identical, or the different positioning of the mags per coil.

When adjusting the drive coil/mag position for best throw of the pendulum, and then positioning the pickup coil/mag, they were different slightly to get the results of higher voltage out than in. I will have to take some picks to show the difference. When the coil/mag positions are the same, the output voltage is less or close to equal. So it is possible that a motor and gen just need some differences in order to get a gain.

Another common sense thing that has me leaning toward the coil mag positions being the advantage is, if the mechanical resonance were the advantage maker, I might think that the advantage may be much greater than what I had gotten so far. Working on a test to eliminate the mech resonance portion of the coils and mags to see if there is the same advantage. If the advantage disappears in a large way, then the mech resonance is probably good to be included.

I had said in another thread that its possible that if we had 2 identical dc motors connected shaft to shaft, naturally we get less out than in. So there may have to be differences in how the 2 need to be reconfigured, with the same mags and coil winding specs, just in a bit different manner/config to gain an advantage.

Mags

Title: Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
Post by: Magluvin on September 16, 2016, 12:04:10 AM
What Im suggesting is this possibility....  Say we have 2 identical motors, one can be made to be a better motor and the other to be a better gen, using all the same mags and amount of wire for the windings.  ;) And if the mech resonance is also needed, then it does. If not then this is what Im suggesting thus far.

Mags