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Author Topic: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)  (Read 51056 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2016, 11:30:27 AM »
I was thinking, that in these experiments, it would also be good to recover the energy stored in the coil, at the end of each cycle - after the tuning fork arm was attracted fully in.

Yes,that is on the cards.
At the moment,im trying to come up with a more efficient kind of transformer,biggest problem being it has to be an air core type.

Im leaning toward a cylindrical magnet accelerating through the center of the coil,where it becomes the core it self.


Brad

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2016, 11:30:27 AM »

Offline verpies

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2016, 01:24:57 PM »
Im leaning toward a cylindrical magnet accelerating through the center of the coil,where it becomes the core it self.
That's really hard to do mechanically without reciprocating or whole lot of rolling friction!
...but I noticed, that you are pretty good in solving mechanical problems.

Whatever you do, please keep any metal conductive holders of the magnets, away from the varying magnetic field of the coil or the Eddy currents will cause significant energy losses in the metal holders  (even if the holders are not moving).  I know my stuff, too  ::)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2016, 06:23:22 PM »
Yes, the eddy current losses in the metal could be even higher, but that does not mean they are low now.
Conductive metal is still immersed in a varying magnetic field from the coils.  That's lossy even if the metal is not moving.

That voltage increase is interesting, but voltage is not energy.  Resonant rise is known to increase voltage at the cost of the current, regardless whether it is a mechanical resonance or LC resonance.

Looking forward to further numbers.

I agree that there is some loss there. Back when TK had the wipmag vids, he had 2 small aluminum spacers set at particular positions around the rotor and closer to the CCW stator mag. He called them something like magneto iso kinetic dampers that gave a slight drag to regulate the assy when running due to the CCW stator would cut out of sync at higher rpms.

But for now lets see where we get with what we have and we can even test the issue by replacing the mags with weights of the same nature and see if one rings longer with or without the mags where they are. I can set up a mag lower on the fork closer to the base and send a ping pulse to the coil. Will be interesting.

Yes the voltage increase is interesting. For any particular coil  with a speed consistent magnet pole pass will produce a particular voltage. And for that coil used, and the open voltage it produces, the current capability should be predictable, for a given field strength and speed of the pass. So Im thinking that if the 2 coils are identical, with identical magnets for the drive and the pickup, and both mags moving at the same speed, I would expect less on the output coil. But I dont have that. I have more.
So in my mindset, I have to consider going for the best in/out voltage ratio as best I can first. I think that considering what I said above, if the output voltage gets to be higher than the input, the higher the better.

Another thing Ive tried with the previous magnet setup is to short out the pickup coil. It just about kills off the vibration. But then retuning input freq brings it back close to full throw. I like that also. 


But as we all know, this is interesting, but more testing as we go along will show what it shows. 

Mags

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2016, 06:23:22 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #108 on: April 30, 2016, 06:28:09 PM »
Yes,that is on the cards.
At the moment,im trying to come up with a more efficient kind of transformer,biggest problem being it has to be an air core type.

Im leaning toward a cylindrical magnet accelerating through the center of the coil,where it becomes the core it self.


Brad


I had read that for an air core transformer, it is best to wind the primary as the outer layer and the sec as the inner layer. Just a tidbit. If the windings are the same ratio, that could be tested as to what is better. ;D

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2016, 06:35:45 PM »
That's really hard to do mechanically without reciprocating or whole lot of rolling friction!
...but I noticed, that you are pretty good in solving mechanical problems.

Whatever you do, please keep any metal conductive holders of the magnets, away from the varying magnetic field of the coil or the Eddy currents will cause significant energy losses in the metal holders  (even if the holders are not moving).  I know my stuff, too  ::)

There is yet another problem, that may be instilled in their design purposely. 8) ;) The neo mags are coated with nickle, mostly. Then break one apart and the neo material is very low resistance, virtually dead short. So the mags are problematic in the same manner. ;)


Mags

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2016, 06:35:45 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2016, 06:41:42 PM »
or,,,

leave the core metal and turn it into a magnet,,

Nice Webby. ;D   (corrected that. I had Watts instead of Webby) ::) ;D

If the end of the rotor were thinner, those stators could be nearly closed.  Had thought of that in a square fashion and the stators were 1 big closed ring tube with a thin inner radius slot for a disk to breach the inside. Anyway, I like that. ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2016, 06:44:52 PM »

For what it's worth....here is my recommendation.  I really hope you see and can appreciate what this text and illustrations are suggesting. 


http://www.google.com/patents/US5625241


Regards

I like that also, just by looking at the drawings I see what is going on.  Saved it to read later. Thanks ;)

Mags

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2016, 06:44:52 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2016, 09:24:40 PM »
Thanks,

I tried a few things and went back to the setup in the pic,, the soft steal core worked the best all around and making it longer did not seem to help,, nor making it smaller.

There are 2 balance points,, one is where the core is directly between two sector holders,, the other is when the sector holder is directly in the middle of the core.

What is the difference in a mechanical oscillation if the core is pulled only one way from center when it is the PM that is doing the pulling,, left side or right side the pull is the same,, so without the loss of momentum completely,, no stopping and reversing,, anything left over might be able to be used.

This motor could be run on less than 6mA @ 24V and spin at about 50RPM,, my meter would show a 0.9mA draw often for extended time periods.

Cool. ;) Any vids of it going?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2016, 09:28:47 PM »

I gave it a once over myself when it was first brought to my attention.  I too presumed to know what was going after glancing over the drawings.  My surprise was only equaled by my awe as I discovered through attempts on the bench that I had no idea what the author was suggesting. 


This one deserves more than just a casual read.  More than just basic consideration, and not just because it totally relates to what you are doing, no.  A few have barked up this tree and missed the goodies.  I cannot tell you what to do nor how to do it.  I can only say I highly recommend this one, and hope its not blown off.


Regards

lol. I here ya. Yep, I have found that the pics are worth less words than the description when it comes to patents. But I try to figure it from the pics anyway.  ;)   

Thanks. Im going to read it.. Would it deserve it own thread?

Mags

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2016, 09:28:47 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2016, 11:15:02 PM »
The neo mags are coated with nickle, mostly. Then break one apart and the neo material is very low resistance, virtually dead short. So the mags are problematic in the same manner. ;)
Yes and I was aware of it quite well but did not want to go overboard with criticizing your setups.

In my opinion, there is no anomalous behavior to be had with hard ferromagnetics (even ceramic ones) but there is hope for soft ones. 
I was planning to remind you about it after you hit a dead end with magnets, without making discouraging statements ahead of that time.

Offline wattsup

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #115 on: May 01, 2016, 12:37:37 AM »
@Magluvin

Regarding your video of the fork magnets, the way the pick up coil magnet is set-up as it moves in and out this is not creating the best change across the coil because the magnet is basically doing only a slight movement in and out and not actually sweeping across the inside of the coil far enough.

If the magnet first started with a non magnet material (red - see below) that reaches just before the center of the coil at rest and the magnet itself was only like a 25 cent piece, thin, then the copper atoms would actually have to follow that smaller magnet. Compare that to what you have now where the copper atoms don't have to follow much because the magnet is always there. That would explain why your are only outputting not even 1 volt.

Also, if the pickup coil was wound with multiple 2 turn coils then each could output immediately instead of having to fight their way through the obvious commotion that will result in trying to output all that is happening from only one line. You would probably output more with only a 2 turn coil then with all those winds.

Maybe to say it is better to remove that pickup coil and experiment with various pickup winds and you may stumble onto something much better.

wattsup

PS: Just curious. Did you try pulsing at 7.84Hz. Maybe the Shewman resonance would help rebias the pick up coil and show more output.

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #115 on: May 01, 2016, 12:37:37 AM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #116 on: May 01, 2016, 03:59:23 PM »
@Magluvin

Just to expand a bit more on my previous post, because every little gadget has its own means to show effects, consider your previous build with what we could derive as both fork ends being almost or perfectly identical in weight and stroke and length, all that is really left to play with is mutual resonance. But what if the drive side was smaller and the pick up side was like the above diagram or a variation of this. The weights would be off. More weight and shorter stroke on the drive side and less weight and longer stoke on the pick up side. So now the drive side needs to find the pick up side resonance.

Also, since this is lower mechanical resonance, if you had the pickup side feeding a germanium dioded capacitor and a reed switch funneling that energy to the drive side, you can load the capacitor once with a battery and manually start the swing and see if it will run on its own. hahahahahahahahahaha
I know, always works so well in the mind.

Another variable to consider is the length of each fork. Who says they should be identical length. Is there an advantage to deploy some difference in fork length hence ductility to promote more leverage?

I just love little toys like this because they are so easy to work out in the mind. You can sit there and run variables in your mind for a few hours to figure out the best possible avenues to try before even doing anything further. It's such a treat for the mind.

I am presently doing boring AC tests with one car battery, two inverters running two scopes so both are floating from each other as well. Something is really funny in one of the effects that I will make a video soon and post it on @tinmans JT thread since it has been abandoned. hahahaha AC = Always Curious.

wattsup


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2016, 12:05:03 AM »
Yes and I was aware of it quite well but did not want to go overboard with criticizing your setups.

In my opinion, there is no anomalous behavior to be had with hard ferromagnetics (even ceramic ones) but there is hope for soft ones. 
I was planning to remind you about it after you hit a dead end with magnets, without making discouraging statements ahead of that time.

No problem.  Im not going to remove posts that are intended to help. Only posts that intend to insult, or degrade what is going on in this thread.

Im a bit slow Id say when it comes to learning certain things. Ive spent a lot of time with this beyond what it looks like here so far. Hands on is much better than just reading about things. Hands on helps things stick in my mind better. So there are little details of this that I pick up that I could not read about and make conclusions or progress toward  conclusions. What Im talking about here is resonance itself. Ive known it exists for a long time. But there just isnt much out there that shows what we are going for here. So with what I have or can get, it is what I have to work with.

The reasoning for making this thread is something after all these years has become more apparent to me. The basic idea is to have a resonant device, some how, between the input and output. With what I have seen so far, I believe, or even to say, I know this is a good direction to go.

When Im finished with the mechanical, we will try to translate it into all electronic. Just a glimpse of what Im thinking is 2 transformers, an input transformer and an output transformer with a resonant circuit between them. Like a resonant pendulum between the transformers. Or it is just 1 transformer assy with the input and output coils with the resonant circuit. Im working on some tests on the side to have something to present in a new thread, when that time comes.

Went to a car show with my boss yesterday. Putting the other mag assy together here now. So Ill possibly have a vid in a little bit. 


Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2016, 12:42:03 AM »
@Magluvin

Regarding your video of the fork magnets, the way the pick up coil magnet is set-up as it moves in and out this is not creating the best change across the coil because the magnet is basically doing only a slight movement in and out and not actually sweeping across the inside of the coil far enough.

If the magnet first started with a non magnet material (red - see below) that reaches just before the center of the coil at rest and the magnet itself was only like a 25 cent piece, thin, then the copper atoms would actually have to follow that smaller magnet. Compare that to what you have now where the copper atoms don't have to follow much because the magnet is always there. That would explain why your are only outputting not even 1 volt.

Also, if the pickup coil was wound with multiple 2 turn coils then each could output immediately instead of having to fight their way through the obvious commotion that will result in trying to output all that is happening from only one line. You would probably output more with only a 2 turn coil then with all those winds.

Maybe to say it is better to remove that pickup coil and experiment with various pickup winds and you may stumble onto something much better.

wattsup

PS: Just curious. Did you try pulsing at 7.84Hz. Maybe the Shewman resonance would help rebias the pick up coil and show more output.

Hey Watts

The ones with the magnets poles on axis with the coil is fairly inefficient, yet the results in my mind are exciting. So the last pic of the plexi tube and small mags with poles out radially will have more dense flux cutting the windings perpendicular to the windings. The mags are the same width as the coil.  It will be together in a bit. So lets see what happens and if it improves the outcome from what we have seen so far.

I thought about different mass weight on each fork, but that changes the freq for each.

Havnt tried Shewman freq. What do you think might happen? Would it be earth polar directional? Is it a radial signal from the earth, like up and down? Let me know some details as such and we can try some things.

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mechanical Resonance (Projects)
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2016, 12:49:27 AM »
@Magluvin

Just to expand a bit more on my previous post, because every little gadget has its own means to show effects, consider your previous build with what we could derive as both fork ends being almost or perfectly identical in weight and stroke and length, all that is really left to play with is mutual resonance. But what if the drive side was smaller and the pick up side was like the above diagram or a variation of this. The weights would be off. More weight and shorter stroke on the drive side and less weight and longer stoke on the pick up side. So now the drive side needs to find the pick up side resonance.

Also, since this is lower mechanical resonance, if you had the pickup side feeding a germanium dioded capacitor and a reed switch funneling that energy to the drive side, you can load the capacitor once with a battery and manually start the swing and see if it will run on its own. hahahahahahahahahaha
I know, always works so well in the mind.

Another variable to consider is the length of each fork. Who says they should be identical length. Is there an advantage to deploy some difference in fork length hence ductility to promote more leverage?

I just love little toys like this because they are so easy to work out in the mind. You can sit there and run variables in your mind for a few hours to figure out the best possible avenues to try before even doing anything further. It's such a treat for the mind.

I am presently doing boring AC tests with one car battery, two inverters running two scopes so both are floating from each other as well. Something is really funny in one of the effects that I will make a video soon and post it on @tinmans JT thread since it has been abandoned. hahahaha AC = Always Curious.

wattsup

"Also, since this is lower mechanical resonance, if you had the pickup side feeding a germanium dioded capacitor and a reed switch funneling that energy to the drive side, you can load the capacitor once with a battery and manually start the swing and see if it will run on its own. hahahahahahahahahaha
I know, always works so well in the mind."

 ;)   I had thought of that early on possibly using a JT to conv to a higher voltage in the discharge cap. So the reed would be activated at near peak throw and discharge into a coil to pull the pen a bit further from its reed activation point. or the Tesla igniter pat circuit.


"I am presently doing boring AC tests with one car battery, two inverters running two scopes so both are floating from each other as well. Something is really funny in one of the effects that I will make a video soon and post it on @tinmans JT thread since it has been abandoned. hahahaha AC = Always Curious."

Would be interesting to see. ;D

Mags

 

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