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Author Topic: Common batteries are free energy sources  (Read 66092 times)

Offline forest

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2008, 10:21:55 PM »
I have looked at this thread and thought that maybe I post something here.Example of  theoretical  OU device where capacitor may be replaced with battery.I didn't proved it or constructed yet.I believe that it may work ,however is hard to adjust the correct parameters. If you want to know more just ask...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2008, 10:21:55 PM »

Offline Magnethos

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2008, 10:39:18 PM »
This guy (tesla 2k6) is impressive. I think that he has read hundreds of books.
I'm researching about one of his theories about how to obtain unlimited battery, but in this case he use another technique.
Follow it at:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5490.0.html

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2008, 11:20:46 PM »
I placed the little 1:1 telephone transformer in series with the relay solenoid to check for the expected high voltage spikes on the second coil.  They were over 100 V, but my o-scope doesn't show them well at all (could be higher?).  I put those spikes into a RadioShack bridge rectifier (since I still am not sure where to buy Schottky diodes (Digikey?)).  When I fed the output back into the circuit I saw very cool effects immediately.  All the batteries started to rise in voltage.  But that is not unusual if you spike them with HV as I have learned from the Imhotep-Bedini fan experiments.

Batteries all rose about .4 volts and then started to decay much, much, slower than before the HV feedback was introduced.

The wave form into the relay solenoid is not 50-50 right now, but a bit heavier on the -9V side.  I'm not sure why, but the wires in the relay are still acting a bit as a spring helping the switch travel towards that side I guess.  I have a 250V 22mf cap in as C1 since it seems to make the circuit run ok.  Still not sure what cap would be best here and would appreciate any advice.  I have about 8 caps that I have tested that work and was going to take scope pictures and analyze that way, but the Missus has the digicam out with the baby right now.

I know I have losses in the 1:1 transformer as well.  What is the best transformer design to minimize losses at 50Hz for such a transformer?  Air core?  Low resistance?  ?  ?  ?

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2008, 11:20:46 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2008, 10:37:23 PM »
mondrasek;

old stuff:

Every electronics device has an identifier such as 1N4001, 1N914, you need
to look these up in a diode handbook (PDF) file from a semiconductor manufacture.
Almost every diode except for the really-really inexpensive kind has their number
printed on the device. Signal diodes use color banding for the digits of the
numbers but can leave the 1N.. designator off sometimes. You'll often see white,
brown, yellow - 914 - 1N914 germanium signal diodes.

the following will tell you various parameters of the device;

In diodes there will be;

Part Number: 1N4001 the 1Nnnnn - are all common diodes
Function: Power,Signal,Bridge,[forget about the following]=> Zener,tunnel,varicap,trigger,Optoelectronic diodes
Process: silicon, germanium, Schotkey => determines the voltage pedestal

PIV - peak reverse voltage - how much voltage can the diode block before it's damaged for 1N4001 - it is 1KVDc
Hf - what is the half frequency the diode can support - 10Mhz. Where half the AC voltage is lost.
FJC - what is the forward junction capacitance - 15pf.
Iac - what is the maximum forward current - 10Amps.
Ir - what is the leakage current at the maximum voltage - xxmilliamps

Generally signal diodes will have under 1 amp of current capacity, very low junction capacitance,
a relatively low breakdown voltage and possibly a very high Hf frequency.

Power diodes will have a very high forward current, somewhat higher leakage than signal, often
have a very high PIV, and often a low to moderate Hf, and much higher junction capacitance.

Note: The old style desktop computer switching power supplies run at 20KHz to 100KHz
switching frequency. Why: to eliminate the bulk of the magnetic cores from the inductors
and trade off: faster diodes, transistors, scr's etc semiconductor speeds to run efficiently
- yet have to handle high current and wattages. So these scrap supplies are a good source of
power components.

try link:

http://www.jameco.com/
 
under IC& Semiconductors click on diodes and rectifiers


---

On Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_tester

A buzz-light a tool and is like two 1.5Volt batteries and a flashlight bulb with a red and black insulated
alagator clip leads in a circuit - very simple. Often you can solder a big needle to the back of one
to serve as a probe. It is used for checking continuity of non-powered circuits like cables or
inductors. The battery voltage at 3Vdc is low so you don't have to worry about the probe blowing
other stuff like semiconductors or wiring out. But the bulb will not light well at resistances above
100 ohms or so, so is kind of a low ohms meter. A diode or power transistor should allow the bulb to
light in one direction then if you reverse the leads the bulb will not light. Often a signal diode
will not have low enough forward resistance to light the buzz-light in the forward direction and
you will have to use a DVM instead.

You can do a simple experiment with a NPN *power* transistor and a buzz-light, you put the buzz light
between the Emitter(-) and Collector(+) then take a 470 ohm resistor from the Collector to the Base.
The 470 ohm resister would not light the buzz light itself but the current amplification gain of the
transistor (a figure called Beta) allows the current through 470 ohm resistor to light the light. Reverse
the leads for an PNP power transistor.

A power semiconductor that does not do the above behavior this is either "burnt out" or "shorted" as in a
failure mode.

You should also study how a four (4) diode bridge rectifier works, as this is a common multi-device
component. +,-,AC+,AC- (good, looks like you already have.)

---

From your latest post;

Interesting solution to the problem mondrasek (very good);

The 1:1 transformer at 50Hz should best have an iron core like the R60 core from
the SGS drive coil... Actually the bemf pulse (you need to at least read about
"Fourier transforms") Harmonics are probably far above the basic 50Hz cycle
repetition rate. Meaning a higher frequency core response of the transformer is
better to let the entire pulse through. More like the difference between 50-60Hz
and audio frequencies.

Another solution would be to put the diodes between the cap. and coil.
The circuit could then only tap into the bemf. But I'm not going to say
it is better than what you've already got. As it stands, the transformer
will effect both directions of current through the coil. This may or may not
solve your timing symmetry difficulties.

Another thing you try do is put the scope's second channel across the batteries
(be careful not to create any "ground loops" ie ground wire conflicts)
and make sure the right polarity pulses are happenning to each of the batteries.
The thing I am concerned about is; "race conditions" where the contacts might
interrupt the circuit path before the pulses get entirely through. 


:S:MarkSCoffman





Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2008, 02:51:02 PM »
@MS, great info as expected!

Fourier transforms!?!?  AURGH! 

I was a 3+ year EE major at the time when I switched to ME some 20+ years ago.  I had made it through the required DiffEQ and Controls classes and had done enough calculus and Fourier transforms to decide I wanted out.  I was tired of doing math all the time.  I liked the theories behind how a magnetic field bends an electron beam to paint the picture on a CRT, but I didn't want to write or work the equations for it.  Now I enjoy asking the EE's I work with when was the last time they did a Fourier transform.  They always laugh.  Last time was always back in college.  It amazes me how little all that higher math we were required to take in college is used in the majority of "Engineering" jobs.  But then again, I will always remember the one professor I had who looked lightly at math errors on exams.  His point was that we were training to be engineers or "problem solvers".  If the solutions we came up with required math beyond our skills we should hire a mathematician to work that part out. 

My deepest respect to those like yourself who appear to have mastered multiple disciplines.

Anyways, after testing the different caps I found I was happiest with the 25V 33mF I have access to at work.  I was attempting to get as near to a square wave as possible across the solenoid (not sure if this is what I should be doing or not, but what the hell).  Too little capacitance and the decay when the contact opens is very steep.  Too much and the leading edge begins to slope and round more at the top.  Higher capacitance also drags the battery voltage down much faster. 

I was concerned with using this polarized electrolytic cap in this way since it sees a reversing polarity pulse.  I figured this would be another "unsymmetrical' item to worry about.  So I took two and put them back to back with their negative terminals connected.  I paralleled that with an identical pair wired the same way.  Any thoughts?

Here are some scope shots.  The single shows only the trace across the solenoid without any other loads in the circuit.  The wave is not quite centered vertically but that is due to my not adjusting the scope prior to the picture.  It's on 5 V/div, so you can see how it oscillates between ~+9V and -9V.

The second has the transformer in series and I have added the output from the second side after the rectifier.  The probe for this one is set to 10X and the scope is on 10 V/div so you can see the great pulses of HV it generates.  I'm not sure what more I can do with this until I get some Schottky diodes.  Thanks for the link.

Do NiCds respond better or worse to the HV spikes than LAs?

What's the best core to get the harmonics and primary spikes through?  I'm guessing it's best to just focus on the primaries?

So, if I am winding my own transformer, what characteristics should I be aiming for?  My guess is low impedance/low resistance.  Is there a minimum number of turns necessary for efficient transfer?  There is a neat calculator for air coils on coilgun.info.  Anything similar for cored coils on the net?

M.

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2008, 02:51:02 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2008, 01:46:33 AM »
@All


Erratum;


1N914  (Do-7) = 1N3148 (DO-41) is silicon diode not Germanium  !!

1N54 !n60 1N270 are usual Germanium diodes
PESE-SEMICONDUCTOR (since 1964)
Gustav Pese


True...I just checked - sorry, I was thinking of the 1N54 RF signal diode. The 1N914 is std silicon 1Vdc forward voltage signal diode MAX If = 200ma.

Thank you for the correction Gustav

:SMarkSCoffman


Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2008, 03:57:03 PM »
I guess I'll be slowing down on this for a bit.  I can't see any way around redesigning and making further extensive changes to the relay.  Currently the relay still has it's original steel armature plate on the back of the pivoting relay contact arm.  It is to that plate that I have my little neos attached to allow the air coil solenoid to force a push-pull oscillation as it switches between +9 and -9 V.  Unfortunately there is probably attraction of the coil to the steel plate as well, and that never switches to repulsion.  So that side of the switch will always see an additional attraction and I will not be able to achieve 50-50 switching.  The plate has to go.

I'm torn between just taking the baby step of replacing the steel armature plate with a similar one of plastic or wood or going all out with a redesign that incorporates more improvements.  Some things I was considering:

1)  Make the attenuator plate rise up past the pivot for a considerable distance and attach a weight that can adjust up and down to set the frequency.  Right now the "counter weight" I've been using that works best is still the alligator clip attached to the old spring tab.  I had tried gluing a thin steel strip to replace the alligator clip and give me something to attach weights (neos) at different heights to set different frequencies, but it was too flexible and actually lagged the switch arm, causing bouncing.
2)  Raise the pivot so I am not working on such a small scale.
3)  Spread out the contacts so there is a longer gap in the switching so the traces can be better analyzed.  I don't think the dead time in the switching hurts anything so why not slow the whole system down?
4)  Maybe move the solenoid to the other side of the pivot to spread out the components further.  There might be some benefit in changing the distance from the pivot and magnet/solenoid arrangement that is difficult to do in the tight confines of the current relay set up.
5)  Maybe flip the relay so the contacts are up.  Right now gravity pulls the switch arm away from the contacts, into the dead zone of the switching.  Inverting will cause gravity to pull it to one side or the other.  I believe one of these types of arrangement I can help it self regulate the 50-50 split by using gravity to assist if one set of batteries is creating a weaker magnetic field than the other.  But I need to think that through some more.  Maybe it is better the way it is now?

I'll also need to order the Schottky diodes.  Don't have access to any old Computer PSs that I know of.

One other test I thought to do yesterday was to place a 200V 6.8mF cap across the high voltage side of the transformer/rectifier to see how high the spikes would charge it.  It leveled out about 59.8 V.  I also ran a small DC motor from the same set up.  It ran slooooow.

M.

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2008, 03:57:03 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2008, 12:12:20 AM »
The Schottkys arrived and I've built a new "Franken-relay".  I replaced an original relay's steel attenuator plate with model plywood (1/16" x 2 laminates) and left it long enough so I wouldn't need an alligator clip on top to stabilize the oscillation.  I also removed the steel back and top plate for the solenoid to eliminate other Lenz losses.  I checked everything with a magnet and am 99% confident the relay is now non-magnetic except where I introduce the new permanent magnet to throw the switch plate from side to side as the solenoid oscillates from +9 to -9 V.

I was very supprised at how hard it was to tune all the mechanical variables in this new solenoid to even get it to run.  I guess I got lucky with the first one.  Now that all the unnecessary magnetic materials are removed I can see how much the conductors between the common input and the switch plate contacts act as a spring.  I had to tweak the bends in those connections for about 15 min. before it would run reliably.  I'm guessing this will be a big obstacle in getting a 50-50 switch cycle.

The Schottskys are a good improvement over the bridge rectifier from RadioShack.  I tested both by using the high voltage output of the 1:1 transformer through them in bridge rectifier arrangements to charge a cap.  The Schottskys took the cap to a higher voltage over all and ramped up much quicker than the RS unit.  Thanks MS.

"Race conditions".  That appears to be the latest hurdle.  Can't feed back directly to the batteries because the spikes occur at the same time as the switch is opening and creates a short?  Damn the speed of light!  This may be a stupid question, but I'm guessing there is no lossless delay circuits for voltage?  If not, then I'm stuck with charging an output source and not the input directly.  May still be able to feed that output source back to the input, but with more complexity and therefore more losses.

Assistance requested.

M.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »

"Race conditions".  That appears to be the latest hurdle.  Can't feed back directly to the batteries because the spikes occur at the same time as the switch is opening and creates a short?  Damn the speed of light!  This may be a stupid question, but I'm guessing there is no lossless delay circuits for voltage?  If not, then I'm stuck with charging an output source and not the input directly.  May still be able to feed that output source back to the input, but with more complexity and therefore more losses.

Assistance requested.

M.


@modrasek;

An engineer would generally separate a circuit into two parts. The logic part
where he creates the circuit's behavior and the power part where he uses
enough components to accomplish what he needs in terms of power processing
then he links the logic part of the circuit to the power part with buffer amplifiers
called drivers.

You are trying to combine the two and have the whole circuit implemented
from power components - this would be called "functional overloading". It
makes things more complex and tricky to analyse and difficult to modify
because of sneak paths, etc.

With the *above* I wanted to show how this would be done in the real world.

(a)With this in mind one way to do what you want is to use a
capacitor to bypass the b-emf pulse through it to the battery, the
capacitor will pass the pulses but block the dc. You can use a series
diode to select pulse polarity and parallel resistor to 'slowly' drain or reset
the capacitor to a base dc state. This is tricky to analyse and some
calculations would be necessary to select components - then scope probing
to make sure it operates the correct way.

(b)In reality you would like to treat the batteries symmetrically. You
could do this by having two coils, one half the circuit would fire into
the static part, then pass control to the other half where it would
perform the same function on the now static first part. With what we
referred to above, an engineer would use a logic flip-flop to guarantee
correct circuit operation, rather than having one coil fire the other
somehow. This way the batteries would be treated exactly
symmetrically with respect to time.

---

web link to latching relay circuit;

http://www.discovercircuits.com/circuit-solutions/latching.html


Finally; I found this circuit design on the Web using FET transistor logic
and a latching relay I wanted to show you. Latching relays are not all
that common of a component that use two coils to pull the contact "off"
or "on" then stays in that state forever until the next pulse comes along.
It shows that a 25ms pulse has enough energy to relatch the relay to the
correct state. Some relays use only 75mw so you can multiply the 25ms
duty cycle times 75mw and you get a decimal point followed a number of
zero's after it representing continuous, per second, power dissipation.

The illustrated circuit uses 3volt batteries and a capacitor as a one
stage voltage multiplier to get 6Vdc= 3volts from the battery plus 3volts
from the capacitor switching a 5volt latching relay. The 25ms input logic
signal will cause one 6volt pulse just long enough to latch the latching
relay into the new state.

The way this would be used in our case would be to issue a setup pulse
to alternate sides of the relay(s) maybe once per minute or so. then issue a
number of recharge pulses while keeping the latches in that same state.
Then hitting the latching relays to swap battery state.

What I would probably start with is 5 double voltage pulses into parallel
batteries then one with b-emf pulse then 5 more double voltage pulses.
Then a little idle time then repeat this for one minute and then hit the
latching relay to swap the battery states. If that doesn't create overunity
in the batteries, I don't know what will.

Mondrasek; Maybe you can combine some of these thoughts with your
own and have it satisfy your needs somewhat easier or with more certainty
then with the first asymmetric relay approach.


:S:MarkSCoffman



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2008, 07:43:31 PM »
@MSC

Functional overloading?  That sounds awfully negative.  In my line of business being able to accomplish multiple tasks with a single component or system is "design optimization" and considered a good thing!  Maybe it is that type of thinking that got me playing with the relay as both the switch and load.  But I agree that has complicated the design, construction and testing most likely.

I realized late on Saturday that I have two unused contacts in that relay that might be usefull for feeding voltage back to the batteries.  One NO connects to the + of one battery directly and to two others, but with the solenoid in the way.  And one NC that connects to the - of three batteries.  I was beginning to play with that when I lost stable operation of the relay.  As I mentioned earlier, the wires in the relay drag on it like a spring so it will only run if they are bent just right.  That is the biggest lesson I think I learned from this second relay build, so I went after building the third generation to eliminate the wire drag.

Relay #3 has the supple conductors from the relay switch replaced with #24 magnet wire that can be bent to hold a shape.  The four leads are exiting the top of the relay cube (top is removed) and are then bent to the sides, then down, and then back out to the sides, co-axial with the relay hinge pin.  I'll leave the co-axial sections about an inch long before soldering them to the wires connecting to base connections.  That way the only spring force the relay arm will see is the torsion on the four magnet wire leads in that area as the relay arm oscillates.  I estimate that oscillation is only through one degree or less so the torsional spring effect should be near nothing.  Relay #3 was just near complete when other duties called, and then Ike dumped our power for the rest of the evening, so I haven't been able to complete and test.

Thanks for the ideas on feeding back through caps.  Could be the simplest thing to try.

Also love that new circuit!  I had not considered latching the relays (or using latch relays), but I had considered building a double coil version of my existing set up.  One asymmetrical concern I have now is that the push and pull forces induced by the solenoid on the neo magnet are probably not equal, since both poles of the neo are in the electromagnet field and are at different distances from it.  My guess is that will result in one direction of force being higher than the other for equal but opposite solenoid charging currents, right?  I had considered next to place a longer cylindrical magnet through a hole in the switch plate arm so that opposite poles were on opposite sides.  These would both be repelled by separate solenoids that would fire alternately as the contacts on each side switched the voltages from +9V to -9V and back.  Diode, solenoid, diode in series, paralleled with an identical diode, solenoid, diode with opposite polarities.

On a side note, I was curious about why Imhotep used a signal diode vs. power diode in his Bedini fan circuit for the collector "output".  Maybe it was just because this was a component easily sourced through RadioShack.  I thought I'd test my fan's ability to charge up a cap through the signal diode vs. my Schottkys.  So I attached a Schottky to the collector as well, and then set the fan to charging a 250V 6.8mF cap from the signal diode first.  It took it to ~220 V (no wonder it bites when you grab it).  I then switch the output lead clip from the signal diode to the Schottky and blew my transistor.  I hadn't thought about the fact that my little power diodes are only rated at 200V.  So that was the end of my test and my second transistor.  Luckily I had purchased two after I blew the first one and had one left to get the little battery charger functional again.

M.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2008, 03:31:30 PM »
The third iteration of the relay is up and running very well.  Wave form across the solenoid coil is very symmetric.  I cannot see any asymmetry but the traces are difficult to analyze on the o-scope right now.  The frequency of the switching is regulated by the length of the switch arm.  It is working like a seesaw now, with one side of the pivot having the switch contacts and being of a length very similar to the original relay.  The other side was left long (about 5 inches) and can be shortened to increase the frequency.  With the current length it is switching closer to 20 Hz and so while the o-scope traces look very symmetric, they may be off by smaller time scales than are noticeable now.

I started the relay running at about 6 PM last night.  It was still running as of 8 this morning when I shut it down.  I just let it run to mechanically "burn in".  The batteries were not fully charged when I started it and were deffinitely not charged equally.  I just fast charged them for a short duration to get them up to ~9 V to check out the new relay.  When it ran so well, I just let it run.  I checked one battery at that time and it was at 9.13 V (still not sure why these HV spike "conditioned" NiCds charge and run above their expected 8.4V rating).  It had dropped to 9.06 V later in the evening when I was shutting down the o-scope for the night.  I also disconnected the scope probe since I had started to notice a loading effect due to the probes on my last build (I think).  I didn't expect it to still be running in the morning!

I turned on the o-scope for a second just to see the wave form this morning while preparing for work.  The trace was still symmetric, but was only reading about 1/2 way to +9 and -9 V.  Also had a higher spike on the leading edge.  I did a quick check of the o-scope settings to make sure I hadn't left it on a different V/div setting and don't think it was.  I expected the batteries to have run down and think that is what I was seeing. 

So then I disconnected all the batteries so I could put them on the charger and hopefully equalize and top them off while I'm at work today.  But before I did I checked their voltages.  They read 8.91, 8.66, 8.75, and 8.58.  That was strange enough that I took a second to write it down.

So I appear to have a working 4-battery type current syphon that I can experiment with.  Next I need to figure out what kind of experiments to do.  Any suggestions?

M.

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2008, 03:31:30 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #86 on: September 20, 2008, 02:06:38 PM »
I took the time to mount the relay to it's own board rather than in the middle of my work bench so it would be portable and able to be moved out of the way.  I also mounted a DIN rail with terminals so I could wire it up better.  The conductors are all approximately the same length from the batteries to the relay with the exception of the four jumpers involved with the switching from series to parallel and back.  The batteries are all draining more equally now.  Before I would always have one that didn't seem to drain at all, one fully down, and two in between after running to a stop.

I was wondering what to do about selecting a frequency for the relay, as that can be adjusted higher as I trim the upper portion of the switch arm.  Currently it is running at about 28Hz.  While reading about circuit resonance and some of "The Tesla Project" thread I came to the conclusion that my set up is a neat LC tank circuit, being excited by an oscillating +9 V, -9 V square wave.  So I may be able to tune it to resonance or a harmonic by selecting the proper cap and adjusting the frequency of the mechanical switching.

So that leads me to needing to measure the inductance of my relay solenoid.  I understand this can be done experimentally with a function generator, but I don't think I can justify the cost right now and don't have access to one I can borrow for more than a day at a time (if that).  I'm interested in a cheap LCR meter and wanted some advice.  Looking on the net I have these three inexpensive models in mind and hope someone can tell me if they are decent or not:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PHZ5T4?smid=A3IZHOEADOGAP0&tag=yahoo-ce-20&linkCode=asn

http://www.omnitronelectronics.net/phpstore/html/LCM1952-LCR-METER.html

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KAEQWS?smid=AMH4W1K8OCGMX&tag=yahoo-tools-mp-20&linkCode=asn

Thanks,

M.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #87 on: September 21, 2008, 11:25:27 PM »
....
So that leads me to needing to measure the inductance of my relay solenoid.  I understand this can be done experimentally with a function generator, but I don't think I can justify the cost right now and don't have access to one I can borrow for more than a day at a time (if that).  I'm interested in a cheap LCR meter and wanted some advice.  Looking on the net I have these three inexpensive models in mind and hope someone can tell me if they are decent or not:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PHZ5T4?smid=A3IZHOEADOGAP0&tag=yahoo-ce-20&linkCode=asn

http://www.omnitronelectronics.net/phpstore/html/LCM1952-LCR-METER.html

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KAEQWS?smid=AMH4W1K8OCGMX&tag=yahoo-tools-mp-20&linkCode=asn

Thanks,

M.

Hi Mondrasek,

I just sent you a PM for you PM but I may have offered a poor choice on the LCR meter so may I correct myself here on suggesting this type out of your three choices: http://www.omnitronelectronics.net/phpstore/html/LCM1952-LCR-METER.html   This has higher inductance range than the first I suggested and its other features also worth the 50 bucks.

Regards,  Gyula

Notice when you wish to use a relay coil as an inductance to make a resonant circuit, such coils has many turns of thin wire hence the DC resistance is significant and appears as high loss resistance embedded right inside the resonant circuit.  So do not expect a resonant LC circuit with highly selective properties from relay coils but with rather flat response at or near the resonant frequency. If this is not a drawback for an application of your choice than of course do not care but I thought worth mentioning this.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2008, 09:19:14 PM »
@Gyula,

Thanks for the input on the meter and info on solenoid resistance.  I played around with the solenoid and RLC sims on coilgun.info to estimate the inductance while waiting for my meter to arrive.  With that high of resistance the circuit would definitely be overdamped.

I also went for a different meter since Omnitron wanted ~$20 for shipping.  I found another meter with similar specs that also had the other DMM functionality.  With shipping it came in $5 cheaper.  I need to return the Fluke I borrowed to work anyway.

So I'm not sure if tuning the solenoid control circuit to resonance will do much.  The mechanical frequency needed for smooth operation might be more important.  But maybe I can get both synced up.  When I try to raise the frequency by shortening the top of the switch arm it becomes unstable and beats itself to death.  I quess this is due to the switch frequencies relation to the natural mechanical frequency.  It's tuned close to that natural mechanical frequency now at around 14Hz after adding more weight to the top of the switch arm (allegator clip again).  It sounds close to the same frequency whether excited by the batteies or if I rattle it just by hand without the bateries hooked up.

I also realized that trying to raise the capacitance to get a square wave like form is proably counterproductive.  Instead I want the contacts to make only long enough to generate a magnetic field strong enough to repel the switch arm to the other set of contacts.  The cap is there to keep the magnetic field in place across the gap in the switch.  The minimum capacitance to do so would be best.  If the cap is down to zero volts by the time the opposite set of contacts is made (or before), that would waste the least amount of current.  Actually it would be best if the cap could be removed all together, but I don't think that is possible with this set up.  Though I can see it in my mind with a bigger set up.  It becomes a magnetic pulse assisted pendulum.

I removed the thin wire from a spare solenoid and wrapped it with bifilar 34 gage just for some testing (while waiting on the LCR meter again).  It rings out at 28.6 Ohms per coil.  When in series with the existing circuit it has almost no noticable effect on the wave form (unlike the 1:1 phone transformer).  It also outputs great bemf spikes that charge a cap to ~86 V.  The 1:1 transformer would not go past 30-something V.  Interesting thing is once I ran the numbers for this solenoid on coilgun.info it appears to have almost exactly the same magnetic strength as the original coil.  Blind luck there!  I wanted to test it as the switch coil since I am not convinced that the second set of coils cannot be used to extract the bemf as was mentioned ealier.

M.

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2008, 02:55:31 AM »
Hi!

Mondrasek
You did a very good job with the tesla switch!

Jesus

 

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