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Author Topic: Common batteries are free energy sources  (Read 82729 times)

allcanadian

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2007, 05:38:39 AM »
Hello PG46
 I read the last page, my post from november, it seems like years have passed since that post. I have come so far in such a short time thanks to this forum.

Anyway, I did the tesla battery switch a few years ago and it does work but it has limitations.
Power is one, heat/radiated energy is the enemy here, you need short duration pulses and a low duty cycle, meaning space your pulses out so the coil doesn't get hot, = low rpm
Tesla realized that the higher the working voltage , the lower the losses such as resistance heating, and that more energy could be recovered.
You never return energy to the source if possible, you move from high potential(voltage) to lower potential. Once you get this you can move on to better alternatives, like the coil acting as a DC-DC converter or buck booster- then it converts the source voltage to a higher voltage on the fly and can be returned to the source.

Here's a very intersting lesson in perception, that nobody has considered that I know of.

You pulse 24v(2-12v batteries in series) into the stator coil of a motor, this is travelling to a 12v battery. So 12v(24v minus 12v) at X amps(watts) went through the motor into the 12v battery, then when the switch is opened a Bemf spike is sent to the low potential 12v battery so you get all your energy back right? not really
Where is the other 12v?

If a Bemf spike of let's say 40v is sent to the 12v battery then the minimum voltage allowed into the battery is 12v.
So what happened to the other 12v? from 12v to 0v that didn't go into the battery?
Because Zero volts is the lowest potential of the system and anything under 12v can't go into the battery, where is it?
Heat
A 1000v system losing 12v Bemf is nothing, a 24v system losing 12v Bemf(1/2) is not.

triffid

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2008, 07:25:31 PM »
just wanted a link back to this thread.triffid

Goat

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2008, 12:44:50 AM »
@ Triffid

Thank you for bringing this thread back into the fold  ;)

Even if you only meant for it to be a link back it's been an interesting read on a thread related to the Tesla switch and people's experiments and experiences with this circuit from back then until now (2006 - 2008) ! 

@ allcanadian

I've been wondering for years whether any of these supposedly "Tesla switch" circuits have ever worked for anyone, have you ever had any truly good results such as the Electrodyne experiments where it "is" claimed there was a 3 year usage on their setup driving a motor and the batteries were tested at the end of their experiment and didn't show ANY wear on them???

Without a full disclosure on the full material list and methodology to this experiment I'm afraid I'm still in the dark and apprehensive to try it because if mis configured or mis timed, it could blow up :o

On a side note and not meant to derail this Tesla switch type thread, has anyone ever produced a successful replica of John Bedini's Energizer design with the battery/generator/flywheel/magneto setup?  Page 28 of the Free Energy Generation book if you got a copy  ;)

I'd really like to try it on a small scale if it's possible but so far I haven't seen or heard anyone claiming and showing such a beast, is possible?

Regards,
Paul

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2008, 11:10:15 PM »
I recently was nudged towards reading this thread and was intrigued.  I've recently been playing with the Imhotep- Bedini fans and was looking at ways to use the output bemf for something other than just charging another battery.  While researching DC step down (or up) transformers such as a spark/ignition/inductor coil transformers I found science project material on making your own.  These used the magnetic field of the coil itself as a solenoid for a mechanical switch that was pulsing the input power.  Since the mechanical switch does not have the electrical losses of the transistors and supporting circuitry I thought it would be an interesting alternative to those components in the Tesla switch - Current Siphon system.  I think someone mentioned the need for mechanical switches and purely inductive loads earlier in this thread (allcanadian?) so it made sense.

I reduced the circuit to just the four switches that change battery pairs 1+2 and 3+4 from series to parallel and visa versa.  That way I could run the entire circuit from a single 24V 4 pole Omron relay which I "acquired" from work.  I worked the spring a bit to make it switch easily at 9 volts.  I purchased 4 x 9V NiCds from Radio Shack this morning.  (Side bar - I ran those uncharged batteries up to 9.7 volts on the Imhotep-Bedini fan before conventionally charging them.  They settled at about 9.4 V after conventional charging.  What's up with that!?!)  I wired up the Current Siphon through the single 4 pole relay using the relay coil as the load (pure inductive load).  i was shooting for a self oscillating relay setup.  At first it would only bounce off of the normally closed set of contacts, interupting the circuit and the power to the solenoid and never make the other set of normally open contacts to flip flop the battery arrangement.  I finaly tried putting the big cap from a CFL (another Imhotep replication project volunteer) across the "load" solenoid to make sure it crossed all the way over to flip the batteries.  It works!

Since I am only switching the batteries and not the load the load is seeing a +9 --> -9V DC pulse.  I figured, what the hell?  Gotta start somewhere.  Plus, that's half way to usable AC...

The one problem I'm having is that the switching is not balanced.  It stays on the +9V side almost three times as long as the -9V side.  I guess that could be adjusted by changing the cap?  I'm not an EE so I'm just working with the basic knowledge of each component type.  What do I adjust, and in what way, to get the 50-50 balance in this device?

A few more bits of info:

The Omron relay solenoid appears to be a DC transformer coil and so has two windings.  The second winding is used to kill the bemf by putting it through a resistor and LED ( for visual switching confirmation?).  I cut this loop to see this "output" vs. the input.  It mirrors almost identically the input but at 1/10th the voltage on my o-scope.

The entire circuit is not running perfectly smooth.  You can hear (and see on the o-scope) when a contact misses.  But it's damn close for a first try!

A few more questions:

Could the relay benefit from something to supress arcing?  If so, how to do and keep this solenoid load purely inductive?

Am I messing up the "pure inductive load" with the cap necessary to switch the relay fully?  Do I need to have two relays or an 8 pole version to do this properly?

M.

PS.  Hi Al!




mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2008, 12:21:07 AM »
One more question I forgot...

I have no diodes in this system right now.  I figured the possible hazards due to omitting them were low since I am only working with 9V 120mAh NiCds.  I'd appreciate any input on this subjects as well.

M.

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2008, 10:38:56 PM »
I realized I would likely not be able to balance the switching to 50-50 since the solenoid in the relay was assisted by the spring that closes the normally closed set of contacts.  So the original arrangement fights the spring while switching from +9 V --> -9 V, but the spring is helping on the switch back the other way.  I had to modify the relay.

First thing was to eliminate the spring.  But this spring also holds the switch pivot point together.  I glued a tiny aluminum tube to the contact arm as close to the original pivot as I could manage and drilled a matching pin hole through both sides of the relay's clear plastic cover.  I now have a straight pin going through the relay cover and through the tube, creating a new hinge.  So the spring can be removed without everything falling apart.

After various trials of adding a magnet to the metal back of the contact plate, and moving the solenoid to different distances away, I scrapped the entire idea of using the original coil with it's metal core.  I couldn't balance the attraction of the new magnet to this core anyway, so I drilled out the back of the solenoid where the core was attached and removed it.  Now the solenoid has an air core.  After assembling everything I pushed a few small neo magnets down the coil from the back until they attached to the contact switch plate.  The result is a relay that pushes and pulls the contacts via it's reversing magnetic fields as it switches from +9 V --> -9 V and back.  It is very stable compared to the original relay and the output wave form is as perfectly balance 50-50 as I can tell on my o-scope.  I'm letting it "burn in" in the garage right now and will then charge the (4) x 9 V NiCds back to max over night before trying any run down tests.

I can see chatter and arcing very minimally on the wave form as the contacts open (I assume), so I'd like an answer to the questions about adding caps to suppress this behavior if anyone has that knowledge.  I have no idea how to select the best caps for the task if it would even work and/or be beneficial.

Thanks,

M.

allcanadian

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2008, 11:49:27 PM »
@mondrasek
If you could post a circuit diagram of what you have done that would help, concerning your relay, if you add capacitance across the relay you have basically closed the circuit to some extent and this will dampen the on/off rise/fall times. An easy way to correct your relay is to solder a small piece of copper wire to the top of the relay. This adds mass thus momentum to the part of the relay that is moving so the contacts move fully from one set of contacts to the other, this slows the relay a bit but does not dampen the sharp impulses that are required in some circuits.You can also stretch your spring a bit to help extend the contact motion.

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2008, 02:26:22 AM »
@allcanadian,

Thanks.  This is really frustrating for me since I have noone I know that I can discuss this stuff with in person or by phone.

I've attached the (admittedly poor quality) scan of the copy of what I drew up at work on Friday.  I can do better later, but it's what I used to wire the relay.

I've already been using your sugestion for adding mass to the relay switch arm to try and get more stable switching from the start ( I'm an ME so that part was easy).  I've been attaching a Radio Shack alligator clip to the tab on the top of the arm where the spring used to hook.  That's how I have run this for 90% of the time.  It runs right at about 50 Hz.  Without the clip it goes much faster, I think at one cycle every .4 msec, if I remember right.  But at that speed it is more prone to stopping.  It's more out of control.

I can see the arcing across the contacts.  I assume that can't be good (another loss).  But I'm not sure what to do about or with it.

Ultimately I would like to make a new solenoid to try and tune this and get bemf output for additional work.  I have no idea how to calculate the optimum solenoid design for that, but I have more magnet wire arriving tomorrow.  Hopefully I can get more help from the forums for that idea as well.

Thanks again,

M.

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2008, 02:44:57 AM »
Man, I'm a lowsy photog!  But here you can kinda see the wave form for the switching voltage.  You'll have to take my word that is going from +9 V to -9 V.  The scope is an Iwatsu SS-5802 I borrowed from work.

I curious about the decay ramp on each peak.  It appears about the mid point of the peaks regardless of what frequency the added weights to the contact arm have caused.  Is this the point where the contacts have opened and the cap is the only remaining voltage?

M.

allcanadian

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2008, 05:14:03 AM »
@mondrasek
Quote
I curious about the decay ramp on each peak.  It appears about the mid point of the peaks regardless of what frequency the added weights to the contact arm have caused.  Is this the point where the contacts have opened and the cap is the only remaining voltage?
I would attribute the decay ramp to capacitance, energy is being stored before the voltage is allowed to change and capacitance will do this, the larger the capacitance the longer the decay ramp. The contact arcing can be minimized by even a very small capacitance which is preferable. I see your setup is a typical series==parallel  parallel==series setup,  one thing to consider with this setup is the type of load you wish to power. If the load is inductive (coils, motors, solenoids) then the contacts will arc wildly without a capacitance across the contacts. If you can imagine an electric current as having momentum then when you open the contacts this momentum is applied instantly across the contacts gap and could be thousands of volts. You can connect a capacitor across the load if you plan on running inductive loads, a better way is to connect a full wave rectifier where your load is in the diagram--then run your inductive load from the (+)(-) connections on the rectifier, you can then put a steering diode across the load to route the inductive discharge back through the load.

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2008, 02:16:34 PM »
Currently the load is only the relay solenoid (now an air coil) that is doing the battery switching.  The curent it receives needs to cycle polarity to push and pull the contact arm back and forth now since there is no spring mechanism in the relay anymore.  For example, I can stop the relay from oscillating and it will not self start since the switch fingers are not touching either contact side since there is no spring or other force to do so anymore.  I tap it to one side or the other to make the first battery circuit and it will cause the coil to energize and push or pull the arm to the opposite side to begin the oscillation and start it up.  The circuit currently is a closed loop with out an output except for the second coil wraps on the solenoid which I believe are a step down transformer coil to capture the bemf in the relay (when un-modified) that pulses an LED in series with a small resistor.  Unfortunately the voltage across this second winding is 1/10 that of the input.

I was thinking the way to have a useful output is to wind a new coil, one that is bifilar with equal numbers of wraps.  The second coil should be an isolated output that can go to a rectifier to return 9VDC, right?  Or will adding the rectifier simply as you mentioned isolate the relay solenoid from some output of the rectifier that can also be used to power another load?  I'm not familiar with rectifiers and will have to read up.  Do you have any suggestion for the best componet(s) for the rectifier?

M.

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2008, 10:09:29 PM »
I thought I'd post a cleaner diagram.

I'm currently investigating the best cap for C1.  This cap is necessary to keep the charge and magnetic field on the solenoid while during mid switch where it would otherwise receive no current (break before make type relay).  So I am guessing a fast discharge, medium voltage, high capacitance?  Suggestions?

I now believe that the second coil in the Omron relay I have modified is just a coil tap.  So the wave form across this section should mirror that across the whole coil as I already witnessed (duh).

I'm still toying with the idea of adding caps across each set of contacts to suppress arcing and welcome your input on this subject.

I also wired in a 1:1 transformer in the bottom of the circuit where the battery pair's negative terminals are attached.  This is how I hope to decouple another load eventually.

mscoffman

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2008, 01:54:18 AM »
mondrasek;

A couple of things. Your approach looks interesting.  Make sure the batteries are seeing the coil load equally.
Unbalanced batteries will run down the high drain side first and overunity will be hard to achieve. If "push
comes to shove" one could use a multi-pole manual switch to switch "source" and "charge" battery sets again.
See if you can come up with a way to fire single polarity pulse coil b-emf into both sets of batteries simultaneously
using diodes.

Just like a force can do no work unless there is movement. A coil doesn't have a b-emf if the expanding magnetic
field does work or runs into lenz metal. In a relay the magfield does work because it moving the contact pole plate.
Hence the oscilliscope trace shows no trace of coil b-emf pulse with the relay. So you may want to put a raw
open inductor in series with the relay coil through isolating diodes to generate b-emf pulses. Winding dual coils
on the relay will not help this situation. (In a SGS the magnets come around again on a wheel via mechanical
momentum)

Before that you will need to be able to use diodes to isolate parts of the circuit. Use a buzz-light (a flashlight
with clip leads) and put a diode in the circuit. Now flip the diode between leads. *That* is a diode. A silicon
power diode like the 1N4001 creates a .7voltage step because of the way it operates. This is OK for signals but
for power efficiency will lack. Use a Schotky power diode (out of computer switching supplies) with has a lower
threshold  or a Germanium power diode for .2volt step. A diode schematic symbol is an arrow with a band. Point
the current in the direction of the diode and band and it will flow. Point the current away from the band and the
diode will block current. The diode can do this almost perfectly in terms of resistance. Use power diodes for
power circuits not those little signal diodes that look like 1/4watt resistors.

That secondary winding on the relay coil needs to be unloaded. If the led lights at all - it is wasting energy
use a power drill to remove the led if you want!

You will have to establish how much overunity or how long an acceptable battery run down time is. Then begin
trying to put additional current load on the circuit. That secondary winding (or transformer) may end up coming
in handy for impedance/voltage adaptation. What is called "interstage isolation" in the business.

:S:MSCoffman

 

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2008, 05:09:17 PM »

A couple of things. Your approach looks interesting.  Make sure the batteries are seeing the coil load equally.
Unbalanced batteries will run down the high drain side first and overunity will be hard to achieve. If "push
comes to shove" one could use a multi-pole manual switch to switch "source" and "charge" battery sets again.
See if you can come up with a way to fire single polarity pulse coil b-emf into both sets of batteries simultaneously
using diodes.


I only played around with the set up for 10 or 15 minutes last night.  Hottest day of the year again yesterday so my garage work area is well above 120F and I can't tollerate that for long.  I noticed that the wave form was not perfectly symetric as one side was started with batteries that were not fully charged.  So the lower voltage would cause a weaker magnetic field and that side would switch slower and be drained faster.  I could balance the wave form by rotating the relay so that gravity was helping the weaker side to switch faster.  I think I can use that idea to make a self balancing circuit if I invert the relay.  But I first need to replace my allegator clip counter weight with something more ridgid and adjustable for attaining different frequencies.  I hate to use super glue as I don't trust it to hold against high frequency vibration, but that might be all I can do on this small scale.  I was thinking to glue a thin steel bar to the switch plate arm in place of the allegator clip.  To that I could then add small neo's at different distances to adjust switching frequency.


Just like a force can do no work unless there is movement. A coil doesn't have a b-emf if the expanding magnetic
field does work or runs into lenz metal. In a relay the magfield does work because it moving the contact pole plate.
Hence the oscilliscope trace shows no trace of coil b-emf pulse with the relay. So you may want to put a raw
open inductor in series with the relay coil through isolating diodes to generate b-emf pulses. Winding dual coils
on the relay will not help this situation. (In a SGS the magnets come around again on a wheel via mechanical
momentum)


Thanks.  That explains the wave form and keeps me from wasting time with a bifilar solenoid coil.  I had dreaded the idea of trying to make that and adapt it to work with the existing relay contact arm anyway!


Before that you will need to be able to use diodes to isolate parts of the circuit. Use a buzz-light (a flashlight
with clip leads) and put a diode in the circuit. Now flip the diode between leads. *That* is a diode. A silicon
power diode like the 1N4001 creates a .7voltage step because of the way it operates. This is OK for signals but
for power efficiency will lack. Use a Schotky power diode (out of computer switching supplies) with has a lower
threshold  or a Germanium power diode for .2volt step. A diode schematic symbol is an arrow with a band. Point
the current in the direction of the diode and band and it will flow. Point the current away from the band and the
diode will block current. The diode can do this almost perfectly in terms of resistance. Use power diodes for
power circuits not those little signal diodes that look like 1/4watt resistors.


Sorry, I didn't follow the buzz-light bit.  I tried to research but the "Buzz Light Year" character clogs the search engines.  Could you eleborate?

Thanks also for the info on the different diodes.  I'm familiar with the usual voltage drops and had wondered about which type had the least.  I didn't know that switching times were so varied as well.  But I am having trouble figuring out how to distinguish signal and power diodes.  It appears to me that RS does not carry power diodes?  Where is a good source?


That secondary winding on the relay coil needs to be unloaded. If the led lights at all - it is wasting energy
use a power drill to remove the led if you want!

You will have to establish how much overunity or how long an acceptable battery run down time is. Then begin
trying to put additional current load on the circuit. That secondary winding (or transformer) may end up coming
in handy for impedance/voltage adaptation. What is called "interstage isolation" in the business.


I had broken the coil tap's led+resistor connection first thing, when I assumed it was to cancel bemf.

The 1:1 transformer I tried is for signal isolation in telephones and came from RS.  It is wound around a laminated core.  I am guessing I want a low impedence coil instead and so a bifilar air core would be better?

M.

mondrasek

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Re: Common batteries are free energy sources
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2008, 05:42:32 PM »
@mscoffman,

I think I understand the buzz-light bit now.  You were just wanting me to see the voltage drop and one way current flow through a diode, right?

M.