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Conventional alternative energy systems => All other conventional alternative energy creation systems => Topic started by: conradelektro on February 29, 2016, 10:36:21 PM

Title: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on February 29, 2016, 10:36:21 PM
The oldest "electricity generator" is the electrophorus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus which was invented around 1760.

The electrophorus can be viewed as a variable capacitor which is pre-charged. And by separating the plates (moving one plate of the capacitor further away) one can increase the Voltage of the pre-charge (the principle of charge separation).

The pre-charge is set up by rubbing the "cake" of the electrophorus (the electrolyte) occasionally with fur or wool (the triboelectric effect).

The electrophorus is normaly viewed as a demonstration object (demonstrating the charge separation principle) and not as a continuous source of electricity. One creates a high Voltage charge in the movable plate of the electrophorus and that is the end of it.

Here you can see such a typical demonstration video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO95iGtRVv0 (which is not from me). There are many such demonstration videos available at YouTube if you care to search for "electrophorus".

I developed two circuits (a "basic circuit" and a "basic doubler", see the attached circuit diagrams) which allow to use the electrophorus as a continuous source of electricity. Well, not as continuous as a battery, but one can create a train of High Voltage pulses.

The "basic circuit" is demonstrated in my two videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLCp68VX7NE  and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzoUiZnR5QA

The two videos are not very well done and you have to eliminate the diode HVRT200 mentally. It does not do harm, but it is superfluous (just two HV capacitors are needed and at least one gas discharge lamp (FL, Neon Lamp, CFL). So stick to the "basic circuit" as attached.

The "basic circuit" delivers a HV pulse in one direction (when the top plate is lifted) and then a HV pulse in the other direction (when the top plat is set down again) and so on. If the gas discharge lamp has a rather low break-through-Voltage (e.g. 300 Volt), a series of positive pulses and then a series of negative pulse and so on, is created (because the charge builds up several times per stroke to 300 Volt).

My little research topic is to come up with additional circuitry (which would replace the gas discharge lamp) to for instance charge a super cap with the generated pulse train.

The "basic doubler" is demonstrated in my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk

and in the video it charges a capacitor with pulses in only one direction to about 5000 Volt (in this case negative pulses) and drives a simple electrostatic motor.

So, the "basic doubler" creates a train of pulses in only one direction. The direction (positive or negative) depends on the polarity of the charge imparted on the "cake" by rubbing it with fur or wool. The polarity of the charge depends on the cake-material, if its acrylic, the charge is positive when rubbed with fur or wool.

My little research topic is to come up with additional circuitry to alleviates the "reverse current problem" of the two diodes in the "basic doubler" so that the capacitor can be charged to very High Voltages (e.g. 20 KV). Higher Voltages make an electro static motor more efficient.

Remarks:

It is not a spectacular thing and there is no OU. The energy for "charge separation" is put in when lifting the top plate. And once the charge has built up one feels the attraction force (which has to be worked against when lifting the plate). So, one not only has to work against gravity (the weight of the top plate) but also against the electrostatic attraction of opposite charges (as a positively and a negatively charged object are attracted).

For me it is fascinating that such a simple machine as an electrophorus (pre-charged variable capacitor) can be used to generate a train of pulses. Imagine a simple crank mechanism as depicted in the attached drawing. Such a simple mechanism will allow to do scope measurements in order to quantify the "electricity" generated per second or minute (if the crank mechanism is turned uniformly e.g. by an electric motor).

Is it useful? At the moment, NO! But one can hope to develop a better electrostatic machine than the simple electrophorus which would create more electricity (e.g. a modified Wimshurst machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimshurst_machine). And this newly developed "not any more the old Wimshurst Machine" would have no brushes and no mechanical contacts (just HV diodes, HV transistors and HV capacitors).

I observed that the top plate of the electrophorus only has to be lifted 2 mm in order to create a 1000 Volt pulse. One could therefore build a machine that utilizes micro movements like vibrations (cause by wind or by the movement of people over a side walk or by car traffic).

O.k., I stop speculating and I hope that may be some are interested in this hobby of mine.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on February 29, 2016, 11:57:31 PM
Hope you don't mind me posting my question that I can't figure out an answer to,  I posted it previously on :
http://overunity.com/14021/electrostatic-motor/msg475332/#msg475332

Since I can't find the answer to my question as to how electrostatic-charges dissipate, 
    that is,  whether a normal smooth surface looses it's electrostatic-charge into the air over time,  or whether it can only transmit that charge to another object,
I can't work out the answer to the question below .

   ( There are several different types of electrostatic-motors  )

   I Can't Figure Out The Following -

   Electrostatic-Motor In A Vacuum
       If you placed a suitable type of  electrostatic-motor( for this vaccum question ) into the highest vacuum that can be achieved :

    -  Would the motor run for a longer time,  than in a non-vacuum,   before dissipating all of it's charge  ?

    -  I assume that putting it into a vacuum,  could not turn it into a perpetual-motion device

    -  Each time a  moving-charged-component  of the motor( in the vacuum ) discharges some of it's charge to a stator in the motor,  would it visually look like one of those plasma-globes  ?

    -  Could some additional wiring( and maybe electronics ) turn it into a  self-running  perpetual-motion device,   ?
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: TinselKoala on March 01, 2016, 03:42:14 AM
Hope you don't mind me posting my question that I can't figure out an answer to,  I posted it previously on :
http://overunity.com/14021/electrostatic-motor/msg475332/#msg475332 (http://overunity.com/14021/electrostatic-motor/msg475332/#msg475332)

Since I can't find the answer to my question as to how electrostatic-charges dissipate, 
    that is,  whether a normal smooth surface looses it's electrostatic-charge into the air over time,  or whether it can only transmit that charge to another object,
I can't work out the answer to the question below .
Charge can persist on a surface for a long time if conditions are right. A "perfect" insulator is hard to find though. Dry air is pretty good but not perfect. Charge can dissipate by corona (ion) spray from surface irregularities like sharp points, rough areas etc. Usually, moisture in the air will condense a little bit on surfaces, even smooth ones, and a little dust contamination along with the adsorbed water will make a conductive path for charge to leak away.
Quote
   ( There are several different types of electrostatic-motors  )
Yes, that's right.
Quote

   I Can't Figure Out The Following -

   Electrostatic-Motor In A Vacuum
       If you placed a suitable type of  electrostatic-motor( for this vaccum question ) into the highest vacuum that can be achieved :

    -  Would the motor run for a longer time,  than in a non-vacuum,   before dissipating all of it's charge  ?
Probably. You need a very hard vacuum though, because air gases become more conductive with lower pressure, to a certain point, then the vacuum becomes less conductive as you get into really hard vacuum. Look up Paschen's Law, Paschen curve.
Quote
    -  I assume that putting it into a vacuum,  could not turn it into a perpetual-motion device
You assume correctly.
Quote

    -  Each time a  moving-charged-component  of the motor( in the vacuum ) discharges some of it's charge to a stator in the motor,  would it visually look like one of those plasma-globes  ?
Not necessarily. Plasma globes are actually filled with gas at low pressure. It depends on where you are in the Paschen curve for the particular gases. If you have a really hard vacuum where the residual gas is not conductive, your ES motor may not even work at all, depending on what type it is.
Quote
    -  Could some additional wiring( and maybe electronics ) turn it into a  self-running  perpetual-motion device,   ?
Good luck with that. Conservation laws still apply, even in vacuum.
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: TinselKoala on March 01, 2016, 03:43:52 AM
@conrad: Thumbs up! Nicely done.
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 01, 2016, 01:54:16 PM
   ( There are several different types of electrostatic-motors  )

There is this book from Oleg Jefimenko about electrostatic motors http://rexresearch.com/jefimenko/jefimenkoesmotors.pdf  which explains the basic types.

There are two important principles:

1) Objects which have the same electric charge are pushed apart or if two objects have the opposite electric charge they are attracted.

2) The rocket principle: electrons or air ions are ejected

There are many types of electrostatic motors and they employ one or both principles stated above.

I know, this explanation will not be helpful. I suggest you read the book from Oleg Jefimenko as a start.


About electrostatic motors in vacuum:

If an electrostatic motor needs air ions (either to transport charge or for ejection) it will not work in vacuum.

If you look at the simple electrostatic motor in my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk) you will see that two copper strips are very close to the rotor. If the copper strips touch the rotor, it will work in vacuum. If they are close to the rotor but not touching it will only work in air (or in an other gas atmosphere), because charge is transported through the air by air ions. You see, it is not that simple whether an electrostatic motor will work in vacuum or not.

In general it is costly (in terms of energy) to eject electrons from a material (the material has to be heated to a high temperature), therefore all electrostatic motors which depend on ejecting electrons are not very efficient (but they will work in vacuum).


OU and electrostatic motors:

There is nothing in electrostatic motors that would suggest OU and definitely not in vacuum.


The future of electrostatic motors:

I see a great future of electrostatic motors in Nano-Technology (very small motors). But it is not possible to do that at home.

I only show an electrostatic motor in the context of my "electrostatic generator experiments" to demonstrate the High Voltage and that even the most simple device (like the electrophorus) really generates a considerable amount of electricity. My aim is to step down the High Voltage to useful levels (like 5 Volt or 12 Volt) with simple circuits.

I have this idea (may be it is a useless idea) that electrostatic generators have been neglected in the last 100 years and that they could be a useful power source if only a little power is needed e.g. for charging a mobile phone or any small device that is carried to monitor body functions like blood pressure or blood sugar level.

A pet theory of mine is that vibration is best utilized for electricity generation by help of an electrostatic generator (not by help of Piezo crystals  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity)  as is often tried today).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 01, 2016, 03:18:56 PM
I will have to read that last post later.

In the following post, 
http://overunity.com/16295/all-permanent-magnet-complete-levitation/msg475693/#msg475693
sm0ky2  typed :
Quote
that townsend-brown guy did this 50 yrs or so ago, after he started making things electrostatically levitate.

the force can be arranged to repel, propel, attract, or detract motion between the source and the opposing charge,
whether it be on the object being moved or not.

in this manner, it is much like magnetism

   So many or most things that can be done with a magnet,  can be done with electrostatics.
     
   (  I still don't fully understand why electrostatic-motors do actually  rotate successfully,  but I'll check the wikipedia-page and it's links   )

    So,  is it possible that by replacing a magnet with an electrostatically-charged-object  that you could achieve having  the  long sought   MONOPOLE   that  magnet-motor  makers have always claimed would make a  magnet-motor  possible,   although it would be an electrostatic-motor .

   I'm guessing that if the  'moving-electrostatically-charged-components'  in an   electrostatic-motor  could be  'prevented'  from discharging some of their charge to the  stators,  then the motor could run perpetually ( even though,  doing that to all  known  'electrostatic-motor'  designs would probably stop them functioning  ).
___
  So,  plastics etc,  can hold an  electrostatic-charge,   but are very poor electrical-conductors.

    That makes me wonder if the  'electrostatic-charge'  held by plastics etc,   might actually exist 'ONLY' on the surface of the plastic object,  and since a plastic-object can hold a very high electrostatic-charge,  would that be a layer just made of electrons on the surface of the object .

   Also,  watching a youtube video of the  Electrophorus  powering  light-bulbs etc,  are these NON-ELECTRICAL-CONDUCTOR-CHARGED-MATERIALS( including plastics etc ),  at some point functioning as  electrical-conductors .

   If these  non-electrical-conductor-charged-materials( including plastics etc ),  are at some point functioning as  electrical-conductors,  then,  are they also generating a  MAGNETIC-FIELD around them,  which should not happen since they are not metals.
   
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 01, 2016, 05:17:34 PM
   Also,  watching a youtube video of the  Electrophorus  powering  light-bulbs etc,  are these NON-ELECTRICAL-CONDUCTOR-CHARGED-MATERIALS( including plastics etc ),  at some point functioning as  electrical-conductors .

   If these  non-electrical-conductor-charged-materials( including plastics etc ),  are at some point functioning as  electrical-conductors,  then,  are they also generating a  MAGNETIC-FIELD around them,  which should not happen since they are not metals.

Dear Guest1289,

one can not answer your questions manly for two reasons:

1) You seem to have almost no knowledge in the principles of electrical engineering. (Which is fine, one can not know everything and you might have had a different kind of career.) And if some one has no knowledge in a certain filed one would need to educate this person for some years which is usually done in schools, colleges and universities. And nobody can do that for you by answering questions which touch on the most trivial and the most difficult.

2) You question principles which have been discovered in the last 300 years and are well established. And in order to discuss these principles you again would need not only basic but advanced knowledge in electrical engineering and physics (mainly about atoms). And again one can not give you this knowledge by answering questions which are mostly silly (not because you are dumb but because you lack the most basic understanding which can only be gained by learning about the subject for several years).

I do not want to talk you down (I myself know very little in almost all fields) but you should understand the problem we have with answering your questions.


But I will write about one of your questions (which is cited above) because it concerns my electrophorus experiment:


The electrophorus is a simple capacitor (metallic plate - electrolyte - metallic plate). The electrolyte is the acrylic plate in the middle. A current can go "through" a capacitor (although the electrolyte is absolutely no conductor, it is insulation) if it is alternating current. You have to learn a bit about capacitors and AC to understand that (and I am not providing this teaching here and now).

So, why is there a closed circuit in my "basic circuit" and in the "basic doubler"? It is because the electrophorus is an Alternating Current generator and not a Direct Current generator. The generated AC current is not a nice sinus wave, it is a pulse (or several pulses) in one direction and then a pulse (or several pulses) in the other direction, hence some sort of dirty AC. And AC (also dirty AC) can pass through a capacitor.

In the "basic circuit" this dirty AC (the pulses in both directions, positive and negative) passes through the electrophorus itself and through the additional two "normal" capacitors and goes alternately through the gas discharge lamp.

In the "basic doubler" this dirty AC goes through the electrophorus itself and is then rectified (to pulses in only one direction) by the two diodes. So, this is practically speaking an AC source and a rectifier.

In addition one has to understand, that the electrophorus is "pre-charged" because the acrylic plate holds on its top surface some charge. This charge is created by rubbing the acrylic with fur or wool and this charge stays for many hours if not days. But eventually it disappears literally into the air.

An now the "charge separation" principle has to be understood, because it is which makes the current flow out of the low Voltage "pre-charge" (in my contraption it is about 3 Volt) by becoming a high Voltage (several thousand Volts) when lifting the top plate.

https://www.boundless.com/physics/textbooks/boundless-physics-textbook/electric-charge-and-field-17/overview-133/charge-separation-476-5639/ (https://www.boundless.com/physics/textbooks/boundless-physics-textbook/electric-charge-and-field-17/overview-133/charge-separation-476-5639/)

The energy is put in by lifting the top plate against the attraction force between the negatively charged top plate and the positively charged acrylic plate surface. (One also has to lift the top plate against gravity because it has a weight, but this does not create electricity. Floating in space one would only feel the electrostatic attraction between the top plate and the acrylic plate.)

I am pretty sure this answer will not help Guest1289 because it needs quite a lot of knowledge in electrical engineering (which took me years to learn).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 01, 2016, 09:05:53 PM
Your replies,  and my websearching,  have answered my questions .

   I only type posts incase I type anything useful,  either for the thread,  or if I am the first to invent something new on the thread,  then it stays on the thread as proof ,  so there's no real need to answer any of my questions  .

   Obviously, and as I think you said,   the  electrophorus is  the most efficient design for electricity-generation, and I assume more efficient than any  wimhurst-type-generators,  maybe if someone thinks of a way to design a  RADIALLY-FUNCTIONING-ELECTROPHORUS,  then that would replace current generator-designs .

   Now that I have confirmed the only reason  electrostatic-motors  eventually stop, is because they lose their charge to the atmosphere,  I can see OU potential in them.
  (  But since I have never seen, or know of a successfully functioning  magnet-motor which has been authenticated( replicated ),  then I would assume the chances of success with an  electrostatic-motor  are equally low, or lower  )

   In electrostatic-motors,  and the  device that this thread is based on,  there is a flow of electricity,  and especially when it flows through metal,  it creates  pulsating-magnetic-fields,  maybe those pulsating magnetic-fields could be used to create-kinetic-movement, or to flip-switches,  etc .
  (  Now I'm wondering about electrical-currents, and magnetic-fields,  in the the insulator-materials you use, like acrylics.
     A year or two ago, I read about plastic-magnets,  and in the past I have read that electricity can flow in many, or almost all insulating materials.   
      That made me wonder about a charged-acrylic-object,  maybe   'Persistent_Current' ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_current )    could occur in a charged insulator-material like acrylic,  especially if it was designed in just the right way,  and maybe by adding a diode .

  What About,   running an  electrostatic-motor  inside a simple sealed-container,  containing air at normaL pressure,  so that the air containing the charge which the  electrostatic-motor  has lost,  will remain inside the container,  and then eventually all the charge in that air will be transferred to the sealed-container,  and then you could direct that charge back to the  electrostatic-motor .   And,  the sealed container containing air at normal pressure,  would itself be inside a hard-vacuum,  so that no charge is lost .

   

   
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 01, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
Obviously, and as I think you said,   the  electrophorus is  the most efficient design for electricity-generation, and I assume more efficient than any  wimhurst-type-generators,  maybe if someone thinks of a way to design a  RADIALLY-FUNCTIONING-ELECTROPHORUS,  then that would replace current generator-designs .

I like to say that the electrophorus is the most simple electric generator machine (not the most efficient). But I speculate (and try to prove in the near future) that the electrophorus (charge separation) is more efficient than the Piezo electric effect. More efficient in  the sense that it needs less mechanical energy to get the same amount of electrical energy because the losses when squeezing a Piezo crystals are high. The reason I see in the fact, that one can not squeeze individual crystal molecules. And by pressing down on a Piezo crystal one only deforms a low percentage of the crystal molecules in the right way (mostly heat is generated).  But charge separation works very uniformly over the whole surfaces which are pulled apart. But this is speculation, please do not quote me.

Now that I have confirmed the only reason  electrostatic-motors  eventually stop, is because they lose their charge to the atmosphere,

An electrostatic motor does lose charge into the air, but this is negligible. It stops when the electricity supply is interrupted. Electricity flows through an electrostatic motor like through all things driven by electricity. If no electricity runs through a lamp it will not shine. If no electricity runs through an electrostatic motor it will not turn. The brightness of the lamp depends on the amount of current going through and the torque of an electrostatic motor also depends on the amount of current running through it. So, there is no miracle or unexpected energy.

I said that an electric charge put on the top surface of the acrylic plate (by rubbing it with fur or wool) will dissipate into the air eventually. This happens everywhere not only in an electrophorus. A non conducting surface can hold charge for many hours but not indefinitely.  (I think TinselKoala explained that in one of his posts above.)

What About,   running an  electrostatic-motor  inside a simple sealed-container,  containing air at normaL pressure,  so that the air containing the charge which the  electrostatic-motor  has lost,  will remain inside the container,  and then eventually all the charge in that air will be transferred to the sealed-container,  and then you could direct that charge back to the  electrostatic-motor .   And,  the sealed container containing air at normal pressure,  would itself be inside a hard-vacuum,  so that no charge is lost .

The electrophorus (or any other electrostatic generator) does not take electrons from the air. The "charge separation effect" does not create electrons and does not suck electrons from the air and does not push electrons into the air. It just increases the tension (Voltage) between the positively charge and the negatively charged surfaces. Positive charge is a surplus of electrons and negative charge is a lack of electrons.

So, your sealed container does not change anything. And people did put electrostatic machines in a sealed housing to keep them in dry air and to protect them from dust and also for security reasons as not to hurt bystanders, and the machines worked like outside of the housing (under the same air humidity).

And this leads us to the age old question: are electrons flowing through a conductor when a current flows. Well, this is a difficult one. You will get many different answers. I say, this is not the case. I know this is most confusing but not really relevant in practice. For all practical purposes one can imagine that something flows (why not electrons). It is less confusing if you imagine Alternating Current. One could depict AC as electrons going a short way forward and then backwards again. But this is just a mental  image and not reality. "What is electric current?" is a very difficult topic. The analogy with water flowing through a pipe is totally wrong, it is only a mental crouch. So, finally we have touched a difficult and complicated subject which is not clearly answered by science. But we do not know what electrons really are, or Protons or molecules or atoms. We only have theories about them and these theories are very consistent and can be proven over an over again. Even if one does not know what something really is, one can measure and observe what this something is doing when treated in a certain way. One can say that electrical engineering is to know how electric current behaves, although one does not know what electric current is.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 01, 2016, 11:39:54 PM
Yes, the charge-separation of the  electrophorus  must be the simplest .
   For a long time I have wondered if a changing  magnetic-field  can be used to cause the  Piezo-electric-effect in some types of crystals,  to try and create that effect more efficiently.
   But,  to design a  proper-Radial-Electrophorus,  you could use a spiral shape, like the one in the magnet-motor  I posted below :
http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg475833/#msg475833
    But how could you achieve the electrophorus charge-seperation without physical-contact,  or could it be achieved by a very narrow distance of separation.

  Ok, so an eventual interruption in the discharging-cycles of the  electrostatic-motor  is what causes it to stop,  and the interruption is caused by the gradual depletion of the charge, which I assume has been lost to the air.  In that case,  when the motor stops,  it still contains alot of it's charge .

 
Quote
The electrophorus (or any other electrostatic generator) does not take electrons from the air.
      Yes, I know.  The idea I typed was just to put an  'electrostatic-motor'  into a sealed-air-container( containing air ),  and then put that container,  into a hard-vacuum. 
       I thought that once the static-charge of the motor,  had been lost to, and absorbed by the air,  that  'eventually'  the static-charge in the air could be absorbed by the walls of the sealed-air-container,  and then fed back to the motor.
    But I think you have let me know that when the motor stops,  it still contains alot of it's charge ,  so my idea should not work .

    Well, I had read that  'electron-drift'  occurs in electrical-current,  but that the current is primarily  'electromotive-force',  and there are separate wikipedia pages for electrical-current  and  'electromotive-force'.
    I think its been explained( lately by sm0ky2 ) that in a  permanent-magnet,  since the atoms are all aligned,  then the  electrons orbits are aligned,  and since an electron has an electric-field,  all these aligned-spinning-electric-fields are the magnetic-field. ( the electric-field and magnetic-field are unified in the  'theory-of-relativity'  I think )
    My own theory is either sm0ky2's  theory,    or,   fact,  electrons  are always changing the height of their orbit ( scientists call it a  change-of-energy-state ),  and each time they change the height of their orbit,  they either gain or lose photonic-like-material( what photons are made of, I don't know the term,  and I don't know if electrons emit full photons ).
    So,  could that continual emission of  photonic-like-material  from electrons be what the electromotive-force  is made of,  or maybe it's what the magnetic-field is made of.   
   Not that thats relevant.
     
   anyway, please don't waste time with my utterings, you should be developing your own devices and ideas further
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: Kator01 on March 02, 2016, 03:10:05 AM
conradelektro,
can you read german ? 3M produces Elektret-Filter-Material. Could this help to improve the effect ?

http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/SolutionsFor/AirFiltration/ (http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/SolutionsFor/AirFiltration/)
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843394O/datasheets-purification-luftfiltration.pdf (http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/SolutionsFor/AirFiltration/)
Regards
Kator01





Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 02, 2016, 10:25:00 AM
@ Conrad

maybe you could connect your crank to a small Sterling Engine.
then power the electrophorus with a tealight candle :)
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 02, 2016, 11:53:33 AM
conradelektro,
can you read german ? 3M produces Elektret-Filter-Material. Could this help to improve the effect ?
http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/SolutionsFor/AirFiltration/ (http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/SolutionsFor/AirFiltration/)
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843394O/datasheets-purification-luftfiltration.pdf (http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/SolutionsFor/AirFiltration/)
Regards
Kator01

I looked at the specifications (Datenblatt) of this filter and found the following:

"Die Partikelabscheideleistung von elektrostatisch geladenen Filtern geht während
der Verwendung zurück."

This tells me, that the charge in the filter gets lost over time. They do not say after how many days or weeks. But this happens in all electrets. Electrets hold a "quasi-permanent electric charge", meaning that the charge disappears after a while and it is difficult to determine how long it holds.

If it is not too expensive I will try to get such a filter, thank you for the hint.

I think that it is important to have some means to re-charge the cake of an electrophorus e.g. by occasionally rubbing it with fur or wool. I plan to do a recharge-experiment with a 30 KV High Voltage power supply. I will try to charge up the acrylic plate (the cake of my latest electrophorus) by help of the 30 KV HV power supply. May be by connecting the ground plate and the top plate (which is resting on the cake) to the HV power supply and letting it sit for some minutes. Or I connect the ground plate and a metallic brush to the HV power supply and and brush the surface of the acrylic plate for a minute.

I read that electret microphones lost the charge pretty soon (after a few months). Some think that the charge in the electret can be preserved for years by enclosing it in metal. I connected the top plate and the ground plate of my latest electrophorus over night or over a weekend and then had the impression that the charge was better preserved. But this simple tests are not conclusive because sometimes the charge held for days without that connection.

I sometimes lose the charge on the acrylic plate suddenly and I am not sure why. It happens when I change the circuit, but not always. If I leave a certain circuit in place and only generate electricity for some minutes every now and then (by moving the top plate up and down, and then stopping for hours or days before resuming) I think I never lost the charge.

I am of course looking for a better cake material than acrylic, but acrylic is easy to find and easy to work with.

After all, this is a hobby, not a well funded development project in order to flood the market with millions of electrophorus based generators.

Greetings, Conrad
 
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 02, 2016, 12:10:50 PM
@ Conrad

maybe you could connect your crank to a small Sterling Engine.
then power the electrophorus with a tealight candle :)

I am thinking about slave labour. So, be careful, if you show up near my house you might be put to work. (This is sarcasms, not a real intention. I write this caveat because very often people, like the owner of this forum, do not get it when I make a joke.)

The crank mechanism (which will be driven eventually with an electric motor) has the purpose to enable oscilloscope measurements. For proper measurements one needs a uniform up and down movement of the top plate, not necessarily fast, but as regular as possible, with an almost constant and more or less repeatable frequency.

I see the electrophorus and the crank mechanism as a study object, a means to explore this principle, not as a useful electricity generator. But may be the explored principles can one day be used to build a pretty good generator. But for sure I am not planning to turn this into a business, it is a hobby.

(But secretly I want to become stinking rich and I intend to save the world. Again, do not believe that.)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 02, 2016, 09:46:51 PM
There is hardly anything new under the sun:

http://cap.ee.imperial.ac.uk/~pdm97/powermems/2011/Poster/P-26.pdf

http://cap.ee.ic.ac.uk/~pdm97/powermems/2004/pdfs/187_Arakawa.pdf

Vibrational Power Generator based on the elctrophorus principle (pre-charged variable capacitor), an electret foil is used as "cake".

Greetings, Conrad





Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 03, 2016, 02:46:28 AM
(  I was surprised, when I discovered some days ago,   the first  electrostatic-motor  was by franklin,  and well before the first  electric-motor.  To me,  the  electrostatic-motor  seems more advanced and complex than  faraday's-electric-motor .
 
    But, I soon forgot about that,  when also some days ago,  I discovered  electronic-calculators from 1965,  that had little crt( tv ) screens,  I would never believe that unless I saw them sold on ebay, and shown on youtube .  If they could manage functioning  video-ram for those tv-calculators,  why couldn't they use it to make full-fledged computers, as memory, and buffers, etc  )
    Some months ago I also discovered electronic-calculators, from the mid-60's, that used accoustic-modems  to communicate over phone lines ( and people that had the ensure the correct baud-rates over the phone-lines for them, they already had the term  baud-rates ),  the calculators communicated   with fully programmable servers.

   If that was just what was available to the general-public, I wonder if UFO incidents from those times were more than fiction, I have always thought UFO's were of earth-origin.   )   
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: gotoluc on March 03, 2016, 08:38:07 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 03, 2016, 09:58:05 PM
My idea, to generate electricity with a precharged variable capacitor (by help of an electrophorus or an equivalent), was allready published in the attached patent in 1962 (see the attached patent US3175104 which some one made me aware of).

As is very often the case, most ideas are not new.

The Inventor (a certain C.D. CURTIS) was a bit liberal with diodes and additional capacitors, but my "basic doubler" can be constructed (by removing superfluous components) from the diagram in the patent.

The inventor did not see (or did not bother to disclose) in 1962 that a precharged variable capacitor is in the most basic form (my "basic circuit") an alternating curent generator. But I am sure, over time and with much effort one can find this in the technical literatur of the last 200 years.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: telecom on March 04, 2016, 05:53:31 AM
This is the most interesting concept, and it does appear to me as an over unity device
because your lifting against the gravity is neutralized by dropping under the gravity,
or you can make it gravity neutral by turning sideways.
Also, the electrostatic resistance when lifting up is compensated by the attraction,
when the plate goes down.
While the working cycle is fully neutral (less losses), you are still able to
light the tube, and this light comes from nowhere!
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 04, 2016, 10:35:29 AM
This is the most interesting concept, and it does appear to me as an over unity device
because your lifting against the gravity is neutralized by dropping under the gravity,
or you can make it gravity neutral by turning sideways.
Also, the electrostatic resistance when lifting up is compensated by the attraction,
when the plate goes down.
While the working cycle is fully neutral (less losses), you are still able to
light the tube, and this light comes from nowhere!

I gave the answer in one of my posts above, but I repeat it here:

-----------------------------------

An now the "charge separation" principle has to be understood, because it is which makes the current flow out of the low Voltage "pre-charge" (in my contraption it is about 3 Volt) by becoming a high Voltage (several thousand Volts) when lifting the top plate.

https://www.boundless.com/physics/textbooks/boundless-physics-textbook/electric-charge-and-field-17/overview-133/charge-separation-476-5639/

The energy is put in by lifting the top plate against the attraction force between the negatively charged top plate and the positively charged acrylic plate surface. (One also has to lift the top plate against gravity because it has a weight, but this does not create electricity. Floating in space one would only feel the electrostatic attraction between the top plate and the acrylic plate.)

------------------------------------

So, the weight of the top plate is a fact of the design of the electrophorus, but one could design it sideways or one could do it in outer space where no gravity can be felt.

The force one acts against to generate electricity (to raise the tension or Voltage) is the attraction between the top plate and the acrylic plate or the ground plate. In every charged capacitor the two metal plates (or metal foils) are attracted to each other, because of the opposite charge.

Two surfaces attract each other if one is charged positively and the other negatively (and this is not gravity, but the elctric field). Two surfaces push each other apart if they have the same charge. And one can generate electricity if one acts aginst this attraction force or repellent force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koQxSc7C5HQ (charge Separation)

If one lifts the top plate one can feel the "suction" specially at the beginning because the attraction force is strongest if the two plates are close together.

The electric field, the forces between charged objects and charge separation are concepts which most laymen do not know.

------------------------------
When the top plate is lifted the electric charge is consumed by the lamp or by the electrostatic motor, so there is less charge in the top plate, symmetry is lost. The mechanical force put in to separate the plates is consumed as electricity in the lamp or the electrostatic motor.
------------------------------

I always wonder why people suspect OU in concepts which are known for more than 100 years. Scientists are not dumb and would have seen the OU long ago. Even if some bad people would try to hide the truth, it would be detected pretty soon over and over again. So, if there is OU it is not in effects or concepts known for many years.

The total electric charge of an isolated system remains constant regardless of changes within the system itself (conservation of electric charge).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 04, 2016, 07:32:18 PM
I would draw a diagram of the idea I posted earlier,  of the Radial-Electrophorus,  which works on a wheel,  but I won't be able to.
    Obviously the idea is simply using a  partial-spiral  set on the rim of a wheel,  or, set like a stator near the wheel,  and it would be either the bottom,  or top of the  traditional-Electrophorus.
     The other component,  set on the wheel,   or,   set like a stator near the wheel,  would be either the bottom,  or top of the  traditional-Electrophorus.
    HOWEVER - It would strongly rely on the width of the wheel( not the diameter of the wheel ), because the wider the wheel,  the more charge it could hold.

   But to know if this idea would have any potential,  I would need to know if  an Electrophorus  could function if it was shaped like  2 very long wooden-planks , parallel to each other,  one plank being the bottom of the  traditional-Electrophorus,  and the other plank being the  top,   
and,   obviously if there's any chance it could function without the the 2 planks actually touching  each other,  instead,  just by using a very-very narrow space gap,   at the point in the cycle where they are supposed to touch each other.
(  And,   doesn't the  Electrophorus lose it's charge over  time ,   if so,  then maybe a  re-charging component would have to be built into the wheel                                        )

   ( The  Electrophorus  seems to be an  electrical-current-pump,  like a water pump in a loop,  since it doesn't actually generate any electrical-charge.   I wonder if it is the only electrical-current-pump,  or are devices like  wimhurst machines and similar devices also  electrical-current-pumps  )

   Now I can't actually remember specifically what a  Radial-Electrophorus  could be useful for,  maybe a replacement for one of the devices that already used an Electrophorus
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 04, 2016, 08:21:28 PM
I would draw a diagram of the idea I posted earlier,  of the Radial-Electrophorus,  which works on a wheel,  but I won't be able to.
    Obviously the idea is simply using a  partial-spiral  set on the rim of a wheel,  or, set like a stator near the wheel,  and it would be either the bottom,  or top of the  traditional-Electrophorus.
..........

@guest1289:

All electrostatic generators (besides the ones which use the triboelectric effect which are called friction machines) are a variation of the electrophorus. The up and down movement of the top plate was turned into plates that move past each other at high speed.

It is always the charge separation principle.

One could take the top plate and move it at a small distance over the acrylic plate, e.g. from left to right. First it is on the left side of the acrylic plate, then it starts to cover the acrylic plate till it is exactly over the acrylic plate, and then it uncovers the acrylic plate till it is completely at the right side of the acrylic plate. And doing this is already very close to a Whimshorst machine.

So, there are many designs one could come up with. And people came up with many designs in the 19th century.

In one way you are right, the electrophorus has some similarity with a pump. But electricity can not be pumped, so it is just a faulty mental image. A metaphor hardly ever works.


What I want to do:

- explore the alternating current nature of the electrophorus a bit deeper

- explore the electret a bit deeper; at the moment I am using an acrylic plate, but I want an electret that can be charged up better; I would not mind if the electret looses its charge after a few days

- explore the use of diodes and transistors in order to leed out the charge in a better way and to step it down to a useful Voltage of e.g. 3 Volt or 12 Volt

And only then I want to think about a design other than the electrophorus, like in the direction of a Whimshurst machine (plates turning fast).

For what I want to do next, a simple crank mechanism (driven with an electric motor) is good enough. I just need a uniform (not even fast) up and down movement of the top plate to do some further research.

At the monent I am studying basic principle questions, not the design of a useful generator. I have to admit, that some basic concepts (in connection with electrostaic generators) are still not clear enough in my mind. That has to be rectified first.

It is a hobby, a learning curve, and not a business venture. I do not have finacial interests any more because I can not take anything with me when I die. And being old makes death a reality.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: TinselKoala on March 04, 2016, 08:51:32 PM
A 50-50 mixture of rosin (like is used for violin bows or solder flux) and carnauba wax, melted together and cast into a mold, allowed to cool while under the influence of an electric field (as between plates that are charged to some kV of voltage) , will make an excellent electret for your experiments.


TK's modified Moore's Dirod and TK-Enhanced Franklin ES motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 04, 2016, 10:08:34 PM
@TinselKoala

I got Moore's book about the Dirod but never managed to build one.

In an old book I found the following mixturen for a cake:

33% rosin
33% carnauba wax
33% bee wax

I got a 30 KV power supply and will try the charging while the cake cools down.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: telecom on March 05, 2016, 02:43:40 AM
I gave the answer in one of my posts above, but I repeat it here:

-----------------------------------

An now the "charge separation" principle has to be understood, because it is which makes the current flow out of the low Voltage "pre-charge" (in my contraption it is about 3 Volt) by becoming a high Voltage (several thousand Volts) when lifting the top plate.

Hi, you already getting thousands of volts, not 3 V, right in the beginning, see this video:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MovlfZK7aO4





The energy is put in by lifting the top plate against the attraction force between the negatively charged top plate and the positively charged acrylic plate surface.

No its already there from the beginning
------------------------------------


Greetings, Conrad


Putting aside  rites about positive/negative, its operation mostly related to the Casimir effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Regards
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: Kator01 on March 05, 2016, 03:07:07 AM
Conrad,

the reason that 3M-Air-Filter-Material loose charge is because of the accumulation of the positive particles during the air-filter-process.

Since you do not use this material as an airfilter I do not think it will loose its charge.

So you might ask 3M techicians about this.

Regards

Kator01
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 05, 2016, 07:34:08 AM
@Kator01: I have to get this 3M filter material, very interesting.

@telecom: your arguments are way over my head, I do not know enough to reply.

I am not at home for a week and writing on a tablett is awkward.

Till then, and thank you for your interest,

Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 05, 2016, 11:04:28 AM
I was thinking along the lines of off-setting the gravitational force for the purpose of experimenting with the electric.

Such as the use of springs

or Magnets

the math does not work out the same between the two.
I do not wish to speculate too much on this, just as to say that they are not the same.
But either can be used to offset the effects of gravity to some degree.
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: Kator01 on March 05, 2016, 04:33:40 PM
Conrad,

there is a second thought I have and therefore a word of caution : 

I remember that I had seen years ago a detailed description by 3M of how this filter is build. It consist of fine flat filaments
with opposing charge on each side. These filament are bulk-interwoven so when the air ist flowing in and through this filament-jungle the posivive charged dust-particle are collected within this filter.

That means that you dont have the whole filter-piece charged opposite on both areas which actually is what you need.

You can see the inner filament-structure at page 2  of this document here ( encircled pic at the bottom left )

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843394O/datasheets-purification-luftfiltration.pdf (http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843394O/datasheets-purification-luftfiltration.pdf)

I would write them a mail to find out if there is a product or a sample which has opposing charge on the big area outside.  or the can provide you with a sample of the small flat filaments so you can build a bigger electret-surface yourself.

Wish you success.

Edit: I found the old document in the internet-archive:

The old website dated back to 2009
http://web.archive.org/web/20090826191446/http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/eamd/home/produktinfo/produkte/luftfiltration/elektret/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20090826191446/http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/eamd/home/produktinfo/produkte/luftfiltration/elektret/)

You can even download this old document from the archive:
http://web.archive.org/web/20160305154342/http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/3MContentRetrievalAPI/BlobServlet?locale=de_DE&lmd=1125572412000&assetId=1114272438497&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile (http://web.archive.org/web/20160305154342/http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/3MContentRetrievalAPI/BlobServlet?locale=de_DE&lmd=1125572412000&assetId=1114272438497&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile)

May be this here is of interest:
http://www.nuenergy.org/radiant-energy-diatribe/ (http://www.nuenergy.org/radiant-energy-diatribe/)

Regards

Kator01

Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 05, 2016, 06:31:54 PM
I was thinking along the lines of off-setting the gravitational force for the purpose of experimenting with the electric.

Such as the use of springs

or Magnets

the math does not work out the same between the two.
I do not wish to speculate too much on this, just as to say that they are not the same.
But either can be used to offset the effects of gravity to some degree.

Good idea! I believe in experiments, Theories come after successful experiments.

Put two cylindrical magnets in a vertical tube with North poles facing each other.The top magnet should hoover above the lower one. But the top magnet is pressed closer to the lower one by gravity.

I think that nothing is gained.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 05, 2016, 06:43:21 PM
@Kator01: Thank you for the information, I will write to 3M.

The electret  coax cable experiment is fascinating, I hope I can do it one day.My garden is large enough.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 05, 2016, 10:29:33 PM
Good idea! I believe in experiments, Theories come after successful experiments.

Put two cylindrical magnets in a vertical tube with North poles facing each other.The top magnet should hoover above the lower one. But the top magnet is pressed closer to the lower one by gravity.

I think that nothing is gained.

Greetings, Conrad

yes
What is left then, is purely the electric force pulling the plates together against the magnetism (or spring).
when they approach a closer distance, the increase in attraction of the charges is weaker than the increase in repulsion of the magnets.

a spring is more linear, so the opposite situation can occur, where the electric force can overpower the spring at close distances.

it is interesting to think about, I might build one of each to play around with.
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 06, 2016, 02:11:37 AM
   It might be useful if you post what aspects of the  electrophorus ( or electrostatic-generators etc ) you want to know or understand more about, or find unexplained,   because,   it's such a founding block of physics,  surely the answers are already out there somewhere. 

 ( Maybe if you want an alternative electret,  maybe a container of very-fine-and-short-fabric-fibers( like microfibre fibers),   or the various types of packing foams,  or  very-thin-pieces-of-plastic, or paper,    or the types of dust that accidentally explode in grain-silos due to static( a less explosive choice ) ,  and maybe tightly compress it in a container that has  a  fabric-top  that lets air through it  )

But, here is what I wonder about,  regarding the  electrophorus,  electrostatic-generators,  and electrostatic-motors.
 I'm only posting it to post it,  I don't require any answers.
-  When say for example,  and electrostatic-motor is making  little sparks between the stators and the moving-components,  is it possible that it is losing a higher-ratio  of Electromotive-force//Electrons  into the air,   than  when  electrical-current is just moving through conductors.
A hypothetical example,  during a spark through the air,  60%- electromotive-force  is totally lost to,  and absorbed by the air,   and 5%-electrons is totally lost to   and absorbed by the air.
Whereas in wire, due to existing resistance,   10%- electromotive-force  is totally lost,  BUT I ASSUME THAT NO ELECTRONS could be lost if they are only travelling through wire.
(  KEEPING IN MIND, that when the 2 sections of the  electrophorus  are not touching,  I assume there are little sparks occurring  when they are close  )

SO,  what would happen if you altered the ratio of  Electromotive-force/Electrons beyond a certain limit,  is all that happens is that the electrical-current stops flowing.
  - What happens if you have too much electromotive-force and too little electrons( or no electrons at all )
  - What happens if you have too many electrons,  and,  too little electromotive-force(or no electromotive-force at all )

But this is also related to something else,  I read a post about someone  using an arc-welder and claiming that it seemed to be generating more current than it was using,  in that particular case I suspect that the power-meter reaction to the arc-welder was to blame.

HOWEVER,  I have read about  electrostatic-machines  which have been claimed to take/absorb the  electrostatic-electricity  out  from the air/atmosphere,  and I have even seen a web-page of an electrostatic-motor powered by electrostatic-electricity which is collected directly from the air/atmosphere .

So that makes me wonder about the following analogy,  say you have the type of fountain with a very wide-flat-water-surface  flowing in a room  with  a very high percentage-of-water in the air,  could that water fountain absorb and remove a lot of the water in the air.
    NOW, what if you somehow managed to make a very wide-flat-surface-of-electricity  flowing through the air,  or,   even across the outer-surface  of an object,  could   that  wide-flat-surface-of-electricity   collect  electrostatic-electricity  directly from the air/atmosphere .
      -  And if so,   could you specially design something too alter  how much   electromotive-force  you collect from the air,  as compared to how many electrons you collect from the air.

    I definitely do not need an answer to any of these questions,  I'm only posting it if it gives anyone any ideas.
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 06, 2016, 12:16:52 PM
   It might be useful if you post what aspects of the  electrophorus ( or electrostatic-generators etc ) you want to know or understand more about, or find unexplained,   because,   it's such a founding block of physics,  surely the answers are already out there somewhere. 

What I do not yet understand about the electrophorus:

- The role of the ground plate. Is it neccessary, can one connect my basic circuits (see my first post in this thread) from the moveable top plate to ground (without the second plate underneath the cake)?

- In geneal the role of a connection to ground. Is a ground connection helpful?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: telecom on March 06, 2016, 08:07:03 PM
Hi Conrad,
ground connection should be a part of your working cycle,
like on the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MovlfZK7aO4
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 06, 2016, 09:17:38 PM
Hi Conrad,
ground connection should be a part of your working cycle,
like on the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MovlfZK7aO4

My two basic circuits eliminate the grounding (touching of the top plate) which every description of the original electrophorus mentions and also the video you cited.

A closed circuit is established in my two basic circuits (see the first post in this thread) by incorporating the ground plate. And indeed, one only has to move the top plate up and down ( no grounding or touching) when implementing my two basic circuits.

So, my two basic circuits work without grounding or touching ( no connection to ground at any time, my electrophorus is completely insulated from ground or from the body of the operator).

- Now imagine, one removes the ground plate and leads the wire to earth ground in my two basic circuits. Will it still work? This came to my mind recently, not tested yet. (Notice that many electrlphori are demonstrated without a ground plate, like in the video you cite.)

- But I played with an earth ground connection. My two basic circuits seem to work more reliably with a connection from the ground plate to earth ground. It is not dramatic, just an impression. It needs proper measurements which need a crank mechanism to move the top plate uniformly many times.

My two basic circuits are may be not basic enough. The ground plate is may be superfluous if one has a permanent connection to earth ground.

The casual observer often overlooks the fine points in an electrophorus. It is simple but not trivial.

My two basic circuits turn an electrophorus into a continuously working electrostatic generator; just moving the top plate up and down, no touching = grounding and no mechanical contacts like in the known doublers. It seems that many do not understand that point. It is the one and only ponit of my disclosure.And I have not seen that so far in the literature, which I find surprising and interesting..

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on March 07, 2016, 07:31:32 PM
Hi Conrad,

Thanks for sharing. Here is just an idea of using a silicone ring as a spring board. A 3v pager motor to create a oscillation. A silicone bake pan is around shore A 60 to 70. The ring can be made by casting a mold in clay or 3D print. If that is too much than an easier way is to go to the dollar store and buy a silicone muffin pan and cut the bottom and top off so you have a band to experiment with.

Maybe you could marry the idea with a dielectric generator like in this topic:
http://overunity.com/16139/eap-electroactive-polymers/
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 07, 2016, 09:13:46 PM
@DreamThinkBuild:

Vibration motors and EAPs, nice ideas, thank you.

There are so many things to play with.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: guest1289 on March 07, 2016, 10:02:56 PM
The earth's surface is negatively-charged,  like the ground-plate( electret ) when it's charged .
( The atmosphere is positively-charged  )

If you can cause the  charge-separation  in the  top-plate,  just by using a  grounded(earth)-wire,  instead of requiring a   flat-negatively-charged-ground-plate( electret )  of the same shape and diameter as the  top-plate,  that would be interesting.   
   If it doesn't work,  maybe you could use a   permanently-grounded( earth )-ground-plate( non electret ),  of the  same shape and size as the  top-plate,    instead of the  electret.
    - Or,  is there a way to only use the  charged-ground-plate( electret )  once,  to cause just one  charge-separation,   at the beginning of a period when it's going to continue running for a long while,   and from then on just use the   grounded(earth)-wire,  but that would require inventing a new  electrophorus process or cycle .    I type that if the  electret has reliability problems .

   Before I understood how the electrophorus works,  I wondered if perhaps it was extracting some electricity from the atmosphere,   for example,  when the  positively-charged-top-plate  is  moved  up and away from the  ground-plate( electret ),  I thought maybe that was causing the  ground-plate( electret )  to draw some atmospheric electricity into itself.     I now doubt it.

   Apparently, in complete darkness,  you can observe some very interesting behavior of the  mini-lightning emanating from the electrophorus,  to anything it can use to reach the earth.
http://www.pulse-jets.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3210&start=1245
   I only mention that,  because it would be very interesting to film the  entire cycle of a  traditional-electrophorus,  in complete darkness,  maybe to see if when you  are  lifting  the  positively-charged-top-plate  up and away from the  negatively-charged-bottom-plate,  if there is any mini-lightning,   there shouldn't be I guess.

   I was going to suggest,  that instead of replacing the  ground-plate( electret ) with a grounded(earth)-wire,  maybe you could use  atmospheric-electricity instead,  so that the electrophorus could work in an aircraft for example.   
   I didn't know the atmosphere is positively-charged,  but I have seen some electrostatic-motors  which are powered by atmospheric-electricity,  but that would be much less convenient than the other options.

   But, I wonder if the electrophorus could function in a  vacuum,  without any access to the earths surface,  AND,  another test with access to the earths surface.   
    Could it function as a totally independent closed-system  in a vacuum( the  electrophorus doesn't actually need to create sparks to function  )
    OR,  even  in a sealed-air container,    with,  or without access to the earths-surface.
   
   It'd be helpfull if there was a demonstration somewhere of the electrophorus functioning with access to the earths surface,  or without access to the earths surface,   represented by using  positive-balls and negative-balls as the charges,  just to be able to see for oneself how everything adds up .  Either as a closed system,  or an open system.

   Could it function inside of, or outside of, a spaceship floating in space.  I'm guessing it could function floating in space, if it contained sufficient material.

   I found these links very interesting
   http://amasci.com/emotor/belt.html
   http://www.alternative-technologies.org/articles/static/
   http://www.splung.com/content/sid/3/page/electrostatics
Title: Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
Post by: conradelektro on March 08, 2016, 12:48:16 AM
@guest1289 and all casual readers:

In order to understand what I write in this topic, one has to go back to page 1, to my very first post, and one has to understand the two circuit diagrams posted there. I call the first circuit "basic curcuit" and the second circuit "basic doubler".

The electrophorus in the two circuits has

- a round steel plate at the top, which is moved up and down by hand. It has a plastic tube as a handle and I often call it " top plate"

- a round acrylic plate, which is rubbed occasionally with fur or wool so that it is positively charged at its top surface. One could call this acrylic plate "electret" or "electrolyte" (like in a capacitor).

- a round steel plate underneath the acrylic plate which I often call "ground plate"


The "basic circuit" and the "basic doubler" are completely insulated from ground. Therefore they would work

- in an airplane,
- in a space ship
- in a closed box
- in vacuum and
- in space where it is not too hot to melt the acrylic plate.

Forgive me, if I can not prove that by experiment, but nothing speaks against this claim.


Now, to confuse you, one can speculate whether a connection to earth ground would be beneficial.

- I speculate (and will test) that the ground plate (the round steel plate underneath the acrylic plate) could be replaced by a connection to earth ground. This of course would not be possible in an airplane or space ship.

- I also speculate (and will test) that a earth ground connection of the ground plate could be beneficial in a minor way (and off goes the airplane and the space ship again).


So, if you want to understand and to contribute in an intelligent way, please look at the two circuit diagrams in my very first post in this topic. That is all I write about in this topic, nothing more and nothing less.

Greetings, Conrad