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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: abv on February 13, 2016, 07:07:21 AM

Title: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on February 13, 2016, 07:07:21 AM
This article shows how to use entropy distortion as engine.

https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/

All opinions are welcome.

Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 02, 2016, 10:39:20 PM
I added implementation of this Entropy Engine model using "drinking bird" toy. It should work on temperature of normal condition 300K.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: Nink on March 03, 2016, 12:07:11 AM
Interesting concept have you actually tested there is a temperature variation inside and outside of the magnetic field?

The drinking bird maybe a bad example as trichlorofluoromethane expands at room temperature and requires evaporation cooling to contract so you are back to front in your example unless your in my basement in Canada where it is abnormally cold :-) but I see where you are heading if you can actually show a change in temp inside and outside magnetic field I think we can come up with some interesting experiments. 

What is the actual temperature variation in terms of degrees you believe is achievable ?
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: pomodoro on March 03, 2016, 12:36:22 AM
Interesting concept, but you would need some calculations of the heat released during magnetization, and the temperature rise of the material and the surrounding working fluid. I don't think you get much at all.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 04, 2016, 05:53:59 PM
Interesting concept have you actually tested there is a temperature variation inside and outside of the magnetic field?

The drinking bird maybe a bad example as trichlorofluoromethane expands at room temperature and requires evaporation cooling to contract so you are back to front in your example unless your in my basement in Canada where it is abnormally cold :-) but I see where you are heading if you can actually show a change in temp inside and outside magnetic field I think we can come up with some interesting experiments. 

What is the actual temperature variation in terms of degrees you believe is achievable ?

The "drinking bird" toy works on temperature difference about 2K.
In case to use Gadolinium allow it would be possible in temperature above than its own Curie temperature 293K (20C). Here is link with graph of magnetocaloric effect for this material.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/articles/material-matters/material-matters-volume/fig2.gif
from this site:
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/technical-documents/articles/material-matters/advanced-materials.html
The link on pricing of material presents there.
The drinking bird toy neodymium permanent magnet grade N52 with 1.4T could be ordered from any scientific crafts store.
Good luck with experiments.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 05, 2016, 12:15:40 AM
Interesting concept, but you would need some calculations of the heat released during magnetization, and the temperature rise of the material and the surrounding working fluid. I don't think you get much at all.
More information about this has been added to site:
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: pomodoro on March 05, 2016, 12:35:13 AM
How much energy is required to pull the gadolinium out of the field?
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: lumen on March 05, 2016, 12:58:48 AM
How much energy is required to pull the gadolinium out of the field?

What is the difference between the pull into and then ,after cooling to ambient, back out of the field.

To show the work applied for the work done. The magnothermal effect is surly not free.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 05, 2016, 05:13:45 PM
How much energy is required to pull the gadolinium out of the field?
Above Curie point (293K) the Gadolinium is paramagnetic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetism
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 05, 2016, 05:20:21 PM
What is the difference between the pull into and then ,after cooling to ambient, back out of the field.

To show the work applied for the work done. The magnothermal effect is surly not free.

Nothing free.
The magnetic field is not free. It came from rotation of unpaired electrons in parallel domains. These electrons have an energy.
Main idea of magnetocaloric effect is the magnetic field polarizes the magnetic spins of electron and increases temperature of substance. Vice versa, without magnetic field the temperature goes down from free fluctuations of magnetic spins of electrons.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: Nink on March 05, 2016, 06:46:22 PM
I am wondering if a minto wheel using dichloromethane would be a good way to make this work.   Magnets at the bottom would make the dichloromethane expand making it heavier and it would fall to the ground, warm and then rise up again. Replace warm water with permanent magnets.     Maybe need to have dozens of glass capillaries depending on the time it takes to change the temperature of the fluid. 
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 07, 2016, 04:02:09 AM
I am wondering if a minto wheel using dichloromethane would be a good way to make this work.   Magnets at the bottom would make the dichloromethane expand making it heavier and it would fall to the ground, warm and then rise up again. Replace warm water with permanent magnets.     Maybe need to have dozens of glass capillaries depending on the time it takes to change the temperature of the fluid.
Thank you for idea. I think, this model should be proved first.
All opinion of experts are welcome.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 08, 2016, 07:59:12 PM
I added new model with short temperature range around Curie point. I think, it should remove some questions about possibility of implementation of this idea.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/#CriticalModel
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 08, 2016, 11:27:32 PM
ok so,.. 10T field,
put the alloy inside, and...

+12 degrees?

hmm....

Thermal conductivity,...  add a heat sink.
scratch the bird, just leave the metal IN the field....

take the heat off as it is generated, until magnetic equilibrium is reached.
Heat energy = x

remove field....
heat goes back in...until  more than we took out when it heated...
hmm....

Cold Energy = -y
Difference in T = -y + x

Use this difference in T to drive an external expansion process.
gas must be chosen appropriately for change in T, with respect to ambient.

closed system, sterling-type.

using heat-sinks, or external heat/cold reservoirs, we can drive a heat engine,
without respect to the rate of change of T in the alloy.
give or take...

all there is left to sort out is the application of the field to the alloy.
perhaps a solenoid, or timed-cam shaft that activates every 60,000 rotations or something....
(not literally 60,000... that was just an arbitrary number I threw out as an example,
    the actual value would depend on the system, rate of change of heat in the sample, vs mass, etc.
      as well as the capacity of the heat reservoirs, size of engine.)


 
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: Nink on March 09, 2016, 03:59:38 AM
You maybe right smokey.  If you can have an area inside a magnetic field with a higher temp than an area outside of a magntic filed why wouldn't you just use a peltier electric generator to use the temp difference between the two locations to generate power. Or if you must ye old sterling engine.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: abv on March 10, 2016, 05:12:22 AM
You maybe right smokey.  If you can have an area inside a magnetic field with a higher temp than an area outside of a magntic filed why wouldn't you just use a peltier electric generator to use the temp difference between the two locations to generate power. Or if you must ye old sterling engine.
The changes of heat capacity is not generate a heat. It changes temperature while magnetic spins of electrons arranged by an external magnetic field into one direction. If this heat will be taken by external object at this heating time, then at time when the substance will be outside this external magnetic field then the substance will cool down to more low temperature than it was before heat. This idea used in system of magnetic refrigeration. The heat should not be goes out from system. Or external temperature should be in range of working engine condition. Therefore the heat and cool losses would be similar. However, this will reduce the magnetocaloric effect.
The main idea of this model is showing how to use difference of magnetic field intensity to induce heat difference in certain time to make a mechanical oscillation.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 10, 2016, 08:47:25 AM
You maybe right smokey.  If you can have an area inside a magnetic field with a higher temp than an area outside of a magntic filed why wouldn't you just use a peltier electric generator to use the temp difference between the two locations to generate power. Or if you must ye old sterling engine.

The previous poster is correct, this type of system (entropy engine) does not create "heat".
it creates "cold", or a reduction of heat.

we can use cold, in the same manner in which we use heat.
our heat engines operate on a difference of temperature, regardless of which direction the heat is flowing.

The reason I suggested a Sterling Engine, vs. a Peltier/Seedbeck generator
Is because of the necessity of switching.
In order to use a peltier-type device, you must switch polarities once equilibrium is reached.

The gas-cycle enables use to change directions with reaction to the expansion/compression process.
This is directly controlled by a change in temperature.

remember, in this scenario:
Temperature only changes during the time the magnetic flux is changing.

once the field stabilizes, there is no further change in temperature.

What we are using for a "gain" in energy, or "OU" potential is:
the difference between the original temperature, and the temperature after cooling (when removed from the field at the end of the cycle).
The heat energy gained during the induction process is exactly equal to the energy required to pull the magnetized mass out of the respective field.
The heat energy LOST during de-magnetization: represents a "gain" in entropic energy.

loss of energy is the same as a gain, if you look at the circuit in reverse

we are utilizing the compression function of the cooling process to gain free energy.

NOW - that being said, I believe the magnitude of this "free energy" to be insignificant.
However, it does demonstrate a violation of thermodynamic theory.
which is equally as important as the perpetual (circa 1980's) Coleman Cooler.



Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: pomodoro on March 10, 2016, 09:48:00 AM

which is equally as important as the perpetual (circa 1980's) Coleman Cooler.

Smokey, have you any links to this device? I couldn't find much after 10 mins of searching. Cheers Pomo.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: Nink on March 10, 2016, 07:44:59 PM
This is how I had envisioned a peltier would work but is probably an exercise in futility (but hey why else are we here)

Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: pomodoro on March 11, 2016, 12:33:22 AM
The sad fact that a heat pump with a proven COP of 3 (compressor/vapor/liquid) system can't be made into an over unity device seems to indicate that this system probably also won't work. Imagine a system where 1kw heats a room with 3kw. This is not fantasy but real. But alas,those free 2kw cant be used to loop the system. How sad is that?
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: Nink on March 11, 2016, 04:33:03 AM
The sad fact that a heat pump with a proven COP of 3 (compressor/vapor/liquid) system can't be made into an over unity device seems to indicate that this system probably also won't work. Imagine a system where 1kw heats a room with 3kw. This is not fantasy but real. But alas,those free 2kw cant be used to loop the system. How sad is that?

Fully agree Pomodoro and I really wasn't trying to suggest it was an OU design, just an interesting concept.  The challenge I have is every day. mathematically all of these types of proposals fall outside of Newtonian physics but one day we all hope we find a crack in the matrix.  It's a bit like Thomas Young's double slit experiment where suddenly the current model no longer holds so we now discover "quantum physics" (unless you subscribe to a mashup of a David Lapoint and Electric Universe theory).

Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 12, 2016, 05:04:55 PM
Smokey, have you any links to this device? I couldn't find much after 10 mins of searching. Cheers Pomo.

the cooler + jet nozzle PM's circulated around colleges in the early 90's,
Coleman immediately changed the drain plug holes on all their coolers.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 12, 2016, 05:06:35 PM
The sad fact that a heat pump with a proven COP of 3 (compressor/vapor/liquid) system can't be made into an over unity device seems to indicate that this system probably also won't work. Imagine a system where 1kw heats a room with 3kw. This is not fantasy but real. But alas,those free 2kw cant be used to loop the system. How sad is that?

reference?
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: pomodoro on March 13, 2016, 11:40:08 AM
the cooler + jet nozzle PM's circulated around colleges in the early 90's,
Coleman immediately changed the drain plug holes on all their coolers.

We need better info than this. Have you any plans? how did it work exactly.

Regarding the heat pump and references , it seems the temp difference is not enough. Something to do with the Carnot cycle, being the most efficient cycle possible and the DT being low. Its not just heat we need, its temperature differential. Guess you'd have to go through refrigerants and check the DeltaT and work out how efficient the Carnot cycle would be if used.
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: lumen on March 13, 2016, 04:44:03 PM
I think this video shows the reason why a Gadolinium engine would not work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrthB0n-Yd4
Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 13, 2016, 05:57:23 PM
We need better info than this. Have you any plans? how did it work exactly.

Regarding the heat pump and references , it seems the temp difference is not enough. Something to do with the Carnot cycle, being the most efficient cycle possible and the DT being low. Its not just heat we need, its temperature differential. Guess you'd have to go through refrigerants and check the DeltaT and work out how efficient the Carnot cycle would be if used.

no, I mean I understand the process. Most call it being "half efficient", I prefer to look at it as you only had half to do the work with to begin with. Because half has to stay there once the other half moves to the other side.

But if you are using 1kw to heat something with 3kw,
you could use that 3 to make 1.5 somewhere else, then come back to the first, or something to the like,
or use an area of a cold to sink the heat to so the process can continue.

| --------|
|  box    |   <--- my mind doesn't fit in there :)
|______|

Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 13, 2016, 06:10:16 PM
@pom, jet nozzles off amazon/alibaba/ebay/?
not your moms garden hose, these have custom shapes, designed to increase the velocity/force
of the water stream, at the expense of flow-rate.
all you need is about a foot and a half of plastic tube to fit in the hole.
once you get your flow-rate and pressure
you can calculate which nozzle you need to get the appropriate height.

it has to be the old style cooler
the new ones have all this extra plastic mess around the hole which screws up the flow
you cant get enough "oomph" to get it back into the top



Title: Re: Entropy Engine
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 13, 2016, 06:19:57 PM
I think this video shows the reason why a Gadolinium engine would not work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrthB0n-Yd4

using pure Gd, if enough heat could be taken off the metal at the end of the cycle,
it would be attracted to the magnetic field. which will begin degradation of its' paramagnetic structure.
This causes a heating process.
when complete, the metal will no longer be attracted to the magnet.

it (and its' heat) can be removed from the field and the heat once again taken off.

Some alloys of Gd have a much better heating effect than the pure metal.
one, in particular, might make a decent demonstration (toy) engine.
Similar in magnitude to the Titinol Engine.

One is a heat source, the other a heat sink.