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Author Topic: Entropy Engine  (Read 9601 times)

Offline abv

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Entropy Engine
« on: February 13, 2016, 07:07:21 AM »
This article shows how to use entropy distortion as engine.

https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/

All opinions are welcome.


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Entropy Engine
« on: February 13, 2016, 07:07:21 AM »

Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2016, 10:39:20 PM »
I added implementation of this Entropy Engine model using "drinking bird" toy. It should work on temperature of normal condition 300K.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/

Offline Nink

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 12:07:11 AM »
Interesting concept have you actually tested there is a temperature variation inside and outside of the magnetic field?

The drinking bird maybe a bad example as trichlorofluoromethane expands at room temperature and requires evaporation cooling to contract so you are back to front in your example unless your in my basement in Canada where it is abnormally cold :-) but I see where you are heading if you can actually show a change in temp inside and outside magnetic field I think we can come up with some interesting experiments. 

What is the actual temperature variation in terms of degrees you believe is achievable ?

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 12:07:11 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2016, 12:36:22 AM »
Interesting concept, but you would need some calculations of the heat released during magnetization, and the temperature rise of the material and the surrounding working fluid. I don't think you get much at all.

Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2016, 05:53:59 PM »
Interesting concept have you actually tested there is a temperature variation inside and outside of the magnetic field?

The drinking bird maybe a bad example as trichlorofluoromethane expands at room temperature and requires evaporation cooling to contract so you are back to front in your example unless your in my basement in Canada where it is abnormally cold :-) but I see where you are heading if you can actually show a change in temp inside and outside magnetic field I think we can come up with some interesting experiments. 

What is the actual temperature variation in terms of degrees you believe is achievable ?

The "drinking bird" toy works on temperature difference about 2K.
In case to use Gadolinium allow it would be possible in temperature above than its own Curie temperature 293K (20C). Here is link with graph of magnetocaloric effect for this material.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/articles/material-matters/material-matters-volume/fig2.gif
from this site:
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/technical-documents/articles/material-matters/advanced-materials.html
The link on pricing of material presents there.
The drinking bird toy neodymium permanent magnet grade N52 with 1.4T could be ordered from any scientific crafts store.
Good luck with experiments.

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2016, 05:53:59 PM »
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Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2016, 12:15:40 AM »
Interesting concept, but you would need some calculations of the heat released during magnetization, and the temperature rise of the material and the surrounding working fluid. I don't think you get much at all.
More information about this has been added to site:
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2016, 12:35:13 AM »
How much energy is required to pull the gadolinium out of the field?

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2016, 12:35:13 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2016, 12:58:48 AM »
How much energy is required to pull the gadolinium out of the field?

What is the difference between the pull into and then ,after cooling to ambient, back out of the field.

To show the work applied for the work done. The magnothermal effect is surly not free.

Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 05:13:45 PM »
How much energy is required to pull the gadolinium out of the field?
Above Curie point (293K) the Gadolinium is paramagnetic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetism

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 05:13:45 PM »
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Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2016, 05:20:21 PM »
What is the difference between the pull into and then ,after cooling to ambient, back out of the field.

To show the work applied for the work done. The magnothermal effect is surly not free.

Nothing free.
The magnetic field is not free. It came from rotation of unpaired electrons in parallel domains. These electrons have an energy.
Main idea of magnetocaloric effect is the magnetic field polarizes the magnetic spins of electron and increases temperature of substance. Vice versa, without magnetic field the temperature goes down from free fluctuations of magnetic spins of electrons.

Offline Nink

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 06:46:22 PM »
I am wondering if a minto wheel using dichloromethane would be a good way to make this work.   Magnets at the bottom would make the dichloromethane expand making it heavier and it would fall to the ground, warm and then rise up again. Replace warm water with permanent magnets.     Maybe need to have dozens of glass capillaries depending on the time it takes to change the temperature of the fluid. 

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 06:46:22 PM »
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Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2016, 04:02:09 AM »
I am wondering if a minto wheel using dichloromethane would be a good way to make this work.   Magnets at the bottom would make the dichloromethane expand making it heavier and it would fall to the ground, warm and then rise up again. Replace warm water with permanent magnets.     Maybe need to have dozens of glass capillaries depending on the time it takes to change the temperature of the fluid.
Thank you for idea. I think, this model should be proved first.
All opinion of experts are welcome.

Offline abv

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2016, 07:59:12 PM »
I added new model with short temperature range around Curie point. I think, it should remove some questions about possibility of implementation of this idea.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/#CriticalModel

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2016, 11:27:32 PM »
ok so,.. 10T field,
put the alloy inside, and...

+12 degrees?

hmm....

Thermal conductivity,...  add a heat sink.
scratch the bird, just leave the metal IN the field....

take the heat off as it is generated, until magnetic equilibrium is reached.
Heat energy = x

remove field....
heat goes back in...until  more than we took out when it heated...
hmm....

Cold Energy = -y
Difference in T = -y + x

Use this difference in T to drive an external expansion process.
gas must be chosen appropriately for change in T, with respect to ambient.

closed system, sterling-type.

using heat-sinks, or external heat/cold reservoirs, we can drive a heat engine,
without respect to the rate of change of T in the alloy.
give or take...

all there is left to sort out is the application of the field to the alloy.
perhaps a solenoid, or timed-cam shaft that activates every 60,000 rotations or something....
(not literally 60,000... that was just an arbitrary number I threw out as an example,
    the actual value would depend on the system, rate of change of heat in the sample, vs mass, etc.
      as well as the capacity of the heat reservoirs, size of engine.)


 

Offline Nink

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Re: Entropy Engine
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2016, 03:59:38 AM »
You maybe right smokey.  If you can have an area inside a magnetic field with a higher temp than an area outside of a magntic filed why wouldn't you just use a peltier electric generator to use the temp difference between the two locations to generate power. Or if you must ye old sterling engine.

 

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