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Author Topic: ver.2 Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy  (Read 2990 times)

Offline abv

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I decided start new topic about perpetual mobile using point Curie.
The idea is very simple and mostly the same.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/01/30/perpetual-mobile/

Based on https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/01/23/switch-theory/
A ferromagnetic material has a closed thermodynamic system inside with efficiency 100%. This system could heat ferromagnetic material higher than Curie point temperature and also cools it, using energy from the heat. The work of ferromagnetic material info magnetic field is an extra energy..

What do you think?

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Offline gyulasun

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Hi Aleksandr,

Would like to show you a video on a Curie point test, the principle looks to be the same you are dealing with in your
blog, except that your spring is replaced by 'gravity'.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCzJBVMmYmo

In the video test, heat was produced by burning butane gas to heat up a ferromagnetic material above its Curie temperature, this was the input energy he had to invest to change the state of "one of the closed systems".  You wrote in your blog:

"...the energy spent on heating the working object will not be equal to the work committed by the other closed system for the transition to a new equilibrium state." 
 
I mention this (and I can agree with it) because then you asked this question in your blog:

"Could a closed system induce work into another closed system without losing own internal energy?"

Well, if we consider the 'thermodynamics' (as you put it) to be the first closed system, i.e. the process of losing and returning the magnetic permeability of the working iron object due to heat energy, then the 'internal energy' of this closed system is not lost because the 'main ingredient' of internal energy, magnetic permeability comes back when the iron cools below Curie temperature.

Similarly, the 'internal energy" of the other closed system (consisting of magnets and mechanics with the working object as you put it) does not change either, the "ingredients" of the internal energy in this closed system like distance, pulling force of the magnet and the gravity force can all be considered constant.

This would mean that my answer to your above question would be yes.

The question is how this principle could be utilized in practice to have a machine which would be able to do a certain work while keeping the input energy relatively low (i.e. operating the 'switch to change an equilibrium state within a closed system' at a low input energy level).

Have you already devised such setups to utilize the change in equilibrium states and "gain" some extra energy?

Gyula

PS1 Nikola Tesla has a patent on this principle too, you may have read it: Thermo Magnetic Motor
                           https://www.google.com/patents/US396121   

Offline abv

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The question is how this principle could be utilized in practice to have a machine which would be able to do a certain work while keeping the input energy relatively low (i.e. operating the 'switch to change an equilibrium state within a closed system' at a low input energy level).

Have you already devised such setups to utilize the change in equilibrium states and "gain" some extra energy?

Gyula

PS1 Nikola Tesla has a patent on this principle too, you may have read it: Thermo Magnetic Motor
                           https://www.google.com/patents/US396121

Thank you for your links.
Also, I looked through Tesla patent which is has common sense to use this effect into machine.
However, based on my "Switch Theory" I'm trying to show machine with efficiency more 100%. If closed thermodynamic system does not lose any energy and it has theoretical efficiency 100% then the work of ferromagnetic material into second closed system will be as an extra energy. This machine with two closed systems will have an efficiency more then 100%. This is more important to show ability to do this.

It's easy to imagine machine which could transform energy of ferromagnetic material movement into magnetic field. The simple design is attach generator with a ferromagnetic material and let it rotate.

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Offline sm0ky2

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Be it very large amounts of energy, or even the tiniest measureable amount
There are serious implications presented by such a system, composing of two separate, thermodynamically isolated systems.

The implications, are... clearly, and unavoidably, "non-conservative".

Why?

What are we missing here?

Assuming the heat you put into the material to rise above the curie temp, was recoverable through heat transfer...
and nothing was lost in this process...

There is nothing to keep the second system from oscillating according to the physical changes that took place.
With no energy input into second system, but (some) energy output from it.

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my foot on this one, but I would love for someone with some insight into this situation, to explain where the energies would, should or could balance themselves out.


Offline abv

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Assuming the heat you put into the material to rise above the curie temp, was recoverable through heat transfer...
and nothing was lost in this process...

There is nothing to keep the second system from oscillating according to the physical changes that took place.
With no energy input into second system, but (some) energy output from it.

If I am wrong, I will gladly eat my foot on this one, but I would love for someone with some insight into this situation, to explain where the energies would, should or could balance themselves out.

Well, when I tried to solve problem with cooling ferromagnetic, then I've understood what I did wrong.
At first, I tried to show efficiency of engine more then 100% with energy conservation and I forgot to count internal energy which should be this extra energy. With this internal energy from motion of charged particles, the total efficiency of engine will be less then 100%, but It will looks like a perpetual mobile. I would better call it as pseudo-perpetual mobile now.
At second I solved problem with cooling ferromagnetic part by using magnetocaloric effect. After all, I got idea to eliminate ferromagnetic element from engine completely and use a paramagnetic element only.
I made kind of a magnetic circuit which could convert energy from motion of charged particles into mechanical oscillations following second thermodynamic law.
I removed previous post from my blog. I'm so sorry, if somebody miss it. However, I wrote a new post about entropy engine.
All details here:
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/

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Offline abv

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I added implementation of this Entropy Engine model using "drinking bird" toy. It should work on temperature of normal condition 300K.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/

 

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